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Source: (consider it) Thread: Evan
Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy
I agree that on the one hand there is a danger of kids being snitches on each other and causing totally unnecessary over-reaction.

I think teenage social pressures against snitching make this a very unlikely scenario.

There was a school shooting in the US about fifteen years ago. The shooter's fellow students had voted him 'most likely to start World War 3'. Apparently the adults were not aware of this.

Even if the students are willing to report their concerns, the authorities may brush them off.

Moo

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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quote:
originally posted by PennyS:
OK, but I was thinking about the Guns and Ammo types of sites, and people selling the things. And that looked like the sort of the site the boy was accessing, not historical weaponry.

Guns are legal. Hunting is common. No reason a school would ban a kid from looking at web sites on guns and ammo. My school library had subscriptions to gun magazines. Got to get Billy Joe and Bobbie Ray interested in reading somehow.

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Penny S
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# 14768

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They aren't legal everywhere. Hunting with them is extremely uncommon among the sort of children in the sort of school shown.

And I can think of better magazines to subscribe to than gun ones. Science ones, for instance.

We aren't speaking a common language, are we? Over here that stuff would not be commonly accessible on school networks. And we don't even have the problem.

[ 07. December 2016, 19:48: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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Why would you say kids at that school don't hunt? Preps and nerds hunt. Where I went to school, most boys and some of the girls went deer hunting. After graduation, I used to go hunting with my former drama teacher. Kids in that video looked like kids in any typical American school.

Billy Joe and Bobbie Ray ain't fixin to read no science magazine. We know this because the library had science magazines as well. I read all the political mags.

No...we aren't speaking a common language.

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Gramps49
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# 16378

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The Instagram photo Evan saw, the loner was definitely holding a rather large caliber gun.

The video he was watching was more than a gun advertisement.

No, the girl probably would not report him if it is the only instance of him acting distant, but it is the accumulation of the whole that makes this a red flag.

The loner is exhibiting the same mannerisms of the kids who shot up Colombine Hight School.

[ 07. December 2016, 22:28: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
The loner is exhibiting the same mannerisms of the kids who shot up Colombine Hight School.

But it is dangerous to work backwards from the known symptoms of one person acting out to assume that all people displaying those symptoms may end up acting out in the same way (or that nobody who doesn't will).

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Palimpsest
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# 16772

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Considering the Sandy Hook shooter it would end up being open season on Autistic or just awkward kids. Just what we need more of.
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Boogie

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# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Guns are legal.

And there is the problem in three words.

Until it's illegal to own guns without strict, enforced controls all the hand wringing about 'loners' and kids who may pose a risk is a pointless diversion from the real problem.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Gramps--

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
No, the girl probably would not report him if it is the only instance of him acting distant, but it is the accumulation of the whole that makes this a red flag.

Maybe you went to a different sort of school than I did or that I've heard of.

But:

--The kid wouldn't necessarily be dangerous, even if he ignored everyone all the way through high school. High school (HS) is an extremely difficult, awkward, depressing, confusing time for most kids.

It sure was for me, partly due to the death of someone close to me. I was suicidal for a while, though I didn't actually try until years later. I was also bullied. And there was family stuff going on. But I wasn't remotely a danger to anyone else.

Kids act out, try all kinds of things. Sometimes, it's all they can do to just show up at school. Kids sometimes find a niche: jock, sosh (socialite), egghead, everyone else. But some kids are labeled as not fitting in *any* category, which is bad for them. Sometimes, kids who don't fit find a home in the drama department or music. FYI: A lot of famous people didn't fit in. (Not that we should all seek to be famous.)

--If the girl reported the boy for simply being distant, she'd trigger trouble for him, herself, or both--even if they both are completely innocent.

Reporting could be done as bullying or a cruel prank, against a kid who'd never hurt anybody.


ETA: Have you seen "The Breakfast Club"? Might explain some things for you. Or read Louise Fitzhugh's "Harriet The Spy".

[ 08. December 2016, 07:19: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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Posts: 17657 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
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# 14768

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Golden Key:
quote:
Reporting could be done as bullying or a cruel prank, against a kid who'd never hurt anybody.
Oh yes. I've seen it at primary level. The bullying girls who put in complaints against their victims in the secret reporting for counselling scheme - saying 'If you report us, we'll report you'. Fortunately observed on one occasion by me and reported to the counsellors.

And there was the Sikh boy who went round calling other children names of the four eyes, carrots variety until one called him something racist, at which he reported them, knowing full well that this resulted in a permanent record of them as racist. Most of the children thought of the racist names as equivalent to fatty, and the other traditional insults.

The possible outcomes of malicious reporting of outsiders already victims of bullying as threats don't bear thinking of.

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rolyn
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# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Until it's illegal to own guns without strict, enforced controls all the hand wringing about 'loners' and kids who may pose a risk is a pointless diversion from the real problem.

Indeed it is sadly clear to most, outside of the world's most powerful country, that having gun ownership regarded as a legitimate imperative by a significant proportion of the population is a recipe for gun death.
It is no conincidence that the three males responsible for the UK's, (so far), three seperate major shooting massacres were all legitimate, licensed and bonifide gun owners.

But, as has already been said, in the absence of obtaining the obvious solution Americans can but try to find other ways of preventing these tragedies.

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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quote:
originally posted by Gramps49:
The Instagram photo Evan saw, the loner was definitely holding a rather large caliber gun

The gun was a revolver. Revolvers aren't typically used in school shootings. As to large caliber, I couldn't get a clear look at the barrel but nothing larger than a .357.

quote:
originally posted by Gramps49:
The video he was watching was more than a gun advertisement.

It was a man holding a rifle. Perhaps, the boy in question was interested in a military career. Recruiters are common on high school campuses.

quote:
originally posted by Gramps49:
The loner is exhibiting the same mannerisms of the kids who shot up Colombine Hight School.

And thousands of other kids who go on to graduate and go on to live mundane lives without ever committing a crime.

quote:
originally posted by Boogie:
And there is the problem in three words.

Until it's illegal to own guns without strict, enforced controls all the hand wringing about 'loners' and kids who may pose a risk is a pointless diversion from the real problem.

We do need to improve to access and quality of mental health. However, expecting other kids to snitch on their classmates isn't the way to go about it. After all, the Sandy Hook killer wasn't a student.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Gramps49
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# 16378

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So, here we have a loner who likes to read Guns and Ammo Magazine, blows off a girl who approaches him in a friendly way, bets bullied in the hall, watches someone shooting an automatic rifle, eats alone in the cafeteria, pantomimes shooting a teacher in the back, and posts a picture of him pointing a gun at a mirror--and people still to not see the connections?

When I first watched the video, the social media picture of the loner pointing a gun sent a chill up my back--and it is a large caliber gun, unhostered.

Looking at the video a fifth time, there was at least one adult who saw him watching the video--in a school library--of him watching the video.

I think, because of Columbine, teachers are being more aware of such warning signs, but just being aware of signs does not make it all fool proof.

However, I doubt most schools would allow a Guns and Ammo Magazine subscription in the library, and most school computers would also block a video of someone shooting an automatic weapon.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Gramps--

It isn't that we don't see possible connections. It's that they're *possible* connections. As I and others pointed out, following up the way you suggest would most likely hurt a kid who had no intention of violence, and may not be more troubled than most teens--and maybe not troubled at all.

And, honestly, I'm downright boggled by the idea that a high school kid's quietly rebuffing someone is a warning flag of violence at all, let alone needing immediate reporting.

I hate to ask this--and you don't have to answer it--but has it been your personal experience that high school social life is that simple???

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
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Posts: 17657 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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First of all, I have a big problem with leaving the responsibility of identifying potentially homicidal teenage kids with other teenage kids. It is so not their job. Not one bit. I'm assuming this video is aimed at adults.

Second, maybe we have the message all backwards. We spend the first half of the film focusing on the pretty, promising kids because that's what we want to do. It is not so much that we missed the specific things the young gunslinger was doing, is that he was pretty much invisible to us. THAT is the problem-- that anyone should feel so invisible in the micro- community that is his school that he doesn't even bother to close the window on hus browser when people walk by.

[ 12. December 2016, 02:04: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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Penny S
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# 14768

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Gramps--

It isn't that we don't see possible connections. It's that they're *possible* connections. As I and others pointed out, following up the way you suggest would most likely hurt a kid who had no intention of violence, and may not be more troubled than most teens--and maybe not troubled at all.

And, honestly, I'm downright boggled by the idea that a high school kid's quietly rebuffing someone is a warning flag of violence at all, let alone needing immediate reporting.

I hate to ask this--and you don't have to answer it--but has it been your personal experience that high school social life is that simple???

For all we know, the girl who approaches him is one of the female relational bullies, and has been known to flirt with and then publicly dump boys to much mirth among her group, and putting his headphones on to block her out is a very sensible reaction.
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