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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Dharmaphobia
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
Indeed, better serve those Christ loves, this being said, we must not rubbish the brain too much lest we all become scientologist or Islamists or what have you.
A straw man. You conflate doing theology with doing the kind of mental gymnastics you are promoting. They are not the same thing.
quote:
I'v never claimed to be saved by solving metaphysical conundrums but fideism is equally undesirable IMO
See above comment.
That was kind. Frankly, I have yet to be convinced by any of the counter-arguments to my mental gymnastics. Serving the poor's not enough to figure out the truth or even show why one should be a Christian rather than, say, a Muslim. But hey, what do I know?
Merry Christmas.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
The "mental gymnastics" or study is important but without Christ you cannot have Christianity. You won't find Jesus by reading about him. That would be like becoming an artist by reading about artists.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The "mental gymnastics" or study is important but without Christ you cannot have Christianity. You won't find Jesus by reading about him. That would be like becoming an artist by reading about artists.
No one claimed you could find Christ by merely reading about him.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
But in what way does Platonism/ Buddhism/ other philosophy help us find Christ?
The discussion about potential incompatibilities regarding reincarnation strikes me as all about theologies, but the OP seemed to be about needing the philosophy.
Is it possible to illustrate which bits of Buddhist philosophy help us find Christ?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
But in what way does Platonism/ Buddhism/ other philosophy help us find Christ?
The discussion about potential incompatibilities regarding reincarnation strikes me as all about theologies, but the OP seemed to be about needing the philosophy.
Is it possible to illustrate which bits of Buddhist philosophy help us find Christ?
Happy to have a try, but after Christmas, but as a foretaste, as far as I am concerned, its contemplative practices help me, as do
seeing the world as impermanent and not to be clung to
seeing the body as such, sex and greed as attachments to passing realities that cause suffering
more fundamentally trying to remove the constant filter of greed/hatred/delusion that blights our perception of pretty much everything and prevents us from seeing things as they are
helping me see the possible transfiguration of all things, the kingdom here below rather than a celestial whatever
helping me understand how God can can and will be all in all
among other things
[ 23. December 2016, 08:53: Message edited by: Joesaphat ]
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
Frankly, I have yet to be convinced by any of the counter-arguments to my mental gymnastics.
You've got the burden of proof backwards. If you want to make the case that buddhism is useful, or necessary, or compatible, that's on you. We don't have to convince you of squat.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
I was going to echo Joe in saying that some of the techniques in Buddhism are very powerful, and can be used by anyone. (Buddhism without beliefs). In my local meditation group, we use koans a lot, and they are like those explosives that are inserted into cracks in rocks, and kaboom.
However, I realized then that I was led out of Christianity, so I am a fine one to talk. Santa baby, hurry down the chimney tonight. (Full lyrics on Google Play Music).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
Frankly, I have yet to be convinced by any of the counter-arguments to my mental gymnastics.
You've got the burden of proof backwards. If you want to make the case that buddhism is useful, or necessary, or compatible, that's on you. We don't have to convince you of squat.
Why so defensive? I was merely asking in the OP where people saw problems. I don't have to do any of the things you say. I'm not trying to convert you, stick to hesychasm and have fun.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
Frankly, I have yet to be convinced by any of the counter-arguments to my mental gymnastics.
You've got the burden of proof backwards. If you want to make the case that buddhism is useful, or necessary, or compatible, that's on you. We don't have to convince you of squat.
Why so defensive? I was merely asking in the OP where people saw problems. I don't have to do any of the things you say. I'm not trying to convert you, stick to hesychasm and have fun.
You suggested that because the New Testament doesn't address more aspects of Life, the Universe and Everything else besides, that it is deficient, but Christians don't actually expect more from it than what it provides: an account of Christ's life and what happened just afterwards, letters to some early churches and one book of prophecy. I can't speak for others but, with the Old Testament, it provides me with a basis for faith, but it isn't the only element: if you don't have the spiritual side, scripture, any scripture, is a dead letter.
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Joesaphat
Shipmate
# 18493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
Frankly, I have yet to be convinced by any of the counter-arguments to my mental gymnastics.
You've got the burden of proof backwards. If you want to make the case that buddhism is useful, or necessary, or compatible, that's on you. We don't have to convince you of squat.
Why so defensive? I was merely asking in the OP where people saw problems. I don't have to do any of the things you say. I'm not trying to convert you, stick to hesychasm and have fun.
You suggested that because the New Testament doesn't address more aspects of Life, the Universe and Everything else besides, that it is deficient, but Christians don't actually expect more from it than what it provides: an account of Christ's life and what happened just afterwards, letters to some early churches and one book of prophecy. I can't speak for others but, with the Old Testament, it provides me with a basis for faith, but it isn't the only element: if you don't have the spiritual side, scripture, any scripture, is a dead letter.
I would never say or write the the NT is deficient. It is what it is. Precisely for the reasons you mention, its scope and brevity, it leaves one free to make up one's mind on 'Life, the Universe and Everything else beside.' Again, I'm trying to figure out whether the dharma can be adapted/used as, say, Platonism once was used in order to make better sense of revelation.
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Opening my mouth and removing all doubt, online.
Posts: 418 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2015
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Is it possible to illustrate which bits of Buddhist philosophy help us find Christ?
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
Happy to have a try...
It does seem to me that most of those insights are there in the gospels. Except perhaps for understanding how.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Ikkyu
Shipmate
# 15207
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Is it possible to illustrate which bits of Buddhist philosophy help us find Christ?
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
Happy to have a try...
It does seem to me that most of those insights are there in the gospels. Except perhaps for understanding how.
In my case when I was a Christian, If there had been some mindfulness/meditation group in my church I believe it would have helped me a lot during my adolescence. And it could have delayed (prevented? ) my eventual loss of faith.
I was seeking for something that my local church was not providing. I lost my faith by the end of high school and eventually many years later made my way into Zen Buddhism.
I know of Catholic priests who are also Zen teachers and they seem to find it helpful in their Christian life. There is catholic retreat center not too far from me that also offers meditation retreats.
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
Yes, what is it that is the image-bearer. It's a fairly important question and I've never been able to understand it. Rationality, Aquinas says, which sounds awfully limiting. Also, where does it begin, where does it stop? Are clever people more in His image? Are severely mentally impaired people not?
Aquinas doesn't mean what is usually meant by 'rationality' in modern English: that is the grounding of beliefs on appropriate evidence. The faculty Aquinas is talking about is the ability to comprehend what is good, true, or beautiful, and to desire goodness, truth, and beauty as such. Following Plato Aquinas takes the faculty as being that actualised in mystical contemplation.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
And yes again, I was not concerned with ditching salvation by faith alone, but 'salvation by faith only,' as someone wrote: "We are saved through him, by believing in him, not by believing in any of the specifics of what he did or taught per se.' Not by believing in what he did or taught is a pretty thorough kind of denial, let alone denying salvation by 'what he did or taught.'
It's hard in practice to disentangle believing in Jesus from believing in what Jesus did or taught. There may be philosophical problems in saying that someone who believes turning the other cheek is a piece of foolishness and the rich are much more blessed than the poor also believes in Jesus.
It's not clear that Jesus is actually the object of their belief in that case.
But in so far as it's possible I think most Christian denominations officially side with the belief in Jesus as opposed to belief in what he taught or did side. What Jesus did and taught is important because there are things other than salvation that are important.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Joesaphat:
Frankly, I have yet to be convinced by any of the counter-arguments to my mental gymnastics.
You've got the burden of proof backwards. If you want to make the case that buddhism is useful, or necessary, or compatible, that's on you. We don't have to convince you of squat.
Why so defensive? I was merely asking in the OP where people saw problems. I don't have to do any of the things you say. I'm not trying to convert you, stick to hesychasm and have fun.
Let me try again. Why should we give a fuck about your lack of being convinced? You asked for reasons and are treating us like you are owed a cogent explanation, and there's something wrong with us because we haven't supplied it. Oh and calling someone "defensive" is a personal attack.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
And junior hosting is not appreciated.
If posters want to lay into each other, kindly do so in Hell. All of you.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
If there had been some mindfulness/meditation group in my church I believe it would have helped me a lot during my adolescence.
I can certainly see how meditation practices would be helpful, especially mindfulness. That seems to me somewhat different from applying Buddhist philosophy to Christianity. Or are aspects of a distinctively Buddhist philosophy implicit in mindfulness in a way that one couldn't get out of the gospels? (e.g. every day having its own trouble).
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Jack o' the Green
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# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
[QUOTE] Or are aspects of a distinctively Buddhist philosophy implicit in mindfulness in a way that one couldn't get out of the gospels? (e.g. every day having its own trouble).
Christian Mindfulness is very much alive and kicking. Mark Williams who has been at the forefront of the secular mindfulness movement is an Anglican Priest. Other Christians who advocate a specifically Christian Mindfulness based on Christian themes in the Gospels such as watchfulness and alertness e.g. Shaun Lambert - a Baptist Minister are now much more evident than they were a few years ago.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Ikkyu
Shipmate
# 15207
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
If there had been some mindfulness/meditation group in my church I believe it would have helped me a lot during my adolescence.
I can certainly see how meditation practices would be helpful, especially mindfulness. That seems to me somewhat different from applying Buddhist philosophy to Christianity. Or are aspects of a distinctively Buddhist philosophy implicit in mindfulness in a way that one couldn't get out of the gospels? (e.g. every day having its own trouble).
In my experience what I needed was not more philosophy. But a physical practice.
Not an explanation but as a Buddhist friend of
mine loves to say an alternative to explanation.
I had many doubts and when I asked I got "answers". But what I needed was a way to live with doubt and find my own answers. Someone else's answers would not do. An old Zen saying goes: "Great Doubt, great awakening; small doubt , small awakening; no doubt , no awakening"
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
If there had been some mindfulness/meditation group in my church I believe it would have helped me a lot during my adolescence.
I can certainly see how meditation practices would be helpful, especially mindfulness. That seems to me somewhat different from applying Buddhist philosophy to Christianity. Or are aspects of a distinctively Buddhist philosophy implicit in mindfulness in a way that one couldn't get out of the gospels? (e.g. every day having its own trouble).
In my experience what I needed was not more philosophy. But a physical practice.
Not an explanation but as a Buddhist friend of
mine loves to say an alternative to explanation.
I had many doubts and when I asked I got "answers". But what I needed was a way to live with doubt and find my own answers. Someone else's answers would not do. An old Zen saying goes: "Great Doubt, great awakening; small doubt , small awakening; no doubt , no awakening"
Terrific post. I found at a certain age that explanations were like dust in my mouth. And I wanted life, ironic really, that it's here all of the time. But I wasn't.
I got tired of answers as well. They often seem shop-soiled.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
While I can empathize with the feelings (and share some of them myself) it is somewhat ironic that both of these answers regarding the merits of viewing Christianity through Buddhist philosophy in fact were part of a story of leaving Christianity.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
"It is here all of the time"
Yes, and every time yes. Jesus stated several times that the Kingdom of Heaven is here and now, all around us. It is these small, but telling extracts from the Gospels which convince me that the historical Jesus was, whether he knew it not, actually practicing of form of Buddhism.
I even believe this person may have achieved some kind of Nivana state before his arrest and execution. Put martyrdom in the blender with Eastern mindfulness and you have an extremely powerful concoction. It is small wonder that the Establishment of that day adopted an -- if you can't beat it join it-- policy on early Christianity 300yrs after Jesus was thought to have been killed.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
While I can empathize with the feelings (and share some of them myself) it is somewhat ironic that both of these answers regarding the merits of viewing Christianity through Buddhist philosophy in fact were part of a story of leaving Christianity.
But not Christ. (Well, that's the way I'm seeing it; I can't speak for Ikkyu).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
That's really very interesting then. Do you mind me asking to know more about how you see/follow Christ at this point?
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
In my experience what I needed was not more philosophy. But a physical practice.
Not an explanation but as a Buddhist friend of
mine loves to say an alternative to explanation.
I had many doubts and when I asked I got "answers". But what I needed was a way to live with doubt and find my own answers. Someone else's answers would not do. An old Zen saying goes: "Great Doubt, great awakening; small doubt , small awakening; no doubt , no awakening"
Not somebody else's answers, but somebody else's practices? I assume you didn't invent your own practices. Why is the used answer unacceptable, but not the used practice?
(As an aside, it's a pity more people don't know about hesychasm and the Prayer of the Heart.)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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