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Source: (consider it) Thread: Manzanar
Albertus
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Back-plotting early C21 sensitivities about race and culture, and also (tho' I didn't say this) hindsight about the reality of the threat of invasion. Military history is full of decisions which with hindsight one might not have taken. Perfectly understandable for the US authorities, especially on the west coast, to intern Japanese Americans, as it was for any belligerent nation to intern people who were or might be associated with one of its enemies.

[ 11. December 2016, 21:38: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I never said Pearl Harbour was the only trigger.

This is just too cute. I asked why there was a difference between the treatment of German-Americans and Japanese-Americans; your two word answer was "Pearl Harbor".
There isn't a contradiction between pointing to a primary trigger and also observing that it wan't the only trigger in play.

Do you really believe there was no direct connection between Pearl Harbour and the introduction of Japanese internment? Of course you are right about pre-existing racist attitudes towards Japanese, but that surely wasn't the proximate cause of the internment moves.

I don't think I'm being cute in observing that the Pearl Harbour event was a key differential.

quote:
To the extent that this thread is about Manzanar, I don't think you're going to be having many constructive dialogues with General DeWitt.
.

Obviously not, but the OP wasn't just about the history, it was about the present dangerous attraction of some kind of neo-internment, and the hope that "Never Again". Any dialogue has to be with today's fearful and the dangerous connection between between fear and prejudice.

Let me repeat. Whatever justification may have been found for internment when a state of war existed between two nations, and however that may have been influenced by pre-existing racism or xenophobia, none of that justifies taking repressive action against people on the grounds of religion or race.

I'm not ducking anything. I'm not denying pre-existing racism. I'm simply disagreeing that pre-existing racism was the sole reason for the introduction of the policies and practices of Japanese internment.

And I can't for the life of me see how saying something which most WW2 historians would find unexceptional provides any kind of aid, comfort, or fig-leaf for those who would like to introduce some kind of neo-internment policy against Muslims.

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RuthW

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Back-plotting early C21 sensitivities about race and culture,

I'm pointing that they obviously didn't share early c21 sensitivities about race and culture, at least with regard to Japanese-Americans -- that was the problem!

quote:
and also (tho' I didn't say this) hindsight about the reality of the threat of invasion. Military history is full of decisions which with hindsight one might not have taken. Perfectly understandable for the US authorities, especially on the west coast, to intern Japanese Americans, as it was for any belligerent nation to intern people who were or might be associated with one of its enemies.
This was not a local decision. This was an executive order by President Roosevelt. The commission created in the 1980s -- only 40 years after the internments -- to investigate whether the internment was justified concluded that it was not justified and that it was motivated by racism, and the US government apologized and paid reparations. Scholars think that the internment was motivated by racism; you can read this to see how it worked.

I am shocked by the casual dismissal of the right of citizens in their own country to be safe and free and the apparent disregard of the importance of due process of law. Manzanar and the other internment sites were designated as historical landmarks so that we would remember how badly the nation failed.

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Albertus
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I don't know whether or not due legislative process was followed, so I'll take your word that it wasn't: and of course it should have been. But that doesn't make internment, per se, exceptionable. And I'd have thought that the right of - most- citizens to be free and safe in their own country was exactly what internment might be trying to protect. I say again: wars are horrible, unpleasant things get done, people in charge in scary times do things that hindsight might deem unnecessary and that their nice sensitive liberal diversity-loving great-grandchildren living in peacetime might not like.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I don't know whether or not due legislative process was followed, so I'll take your word that it wasn't:

Legislative ain't the issue. Was due JUDICIAL process followed? In this country we're not supposed to lock people up without trial. Ex Post Facto and all that.

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Kelly Alves

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I don't know whether or not due legislative process was followed, so I'll take your word that it wasn't: and of course it should have been. But that doesn't make internment, per se, exceptionable. And I'd have thought that the right of - most- citizens to be free and safe in their own country was exactly what internment might be trying to protect. I say again: wars are horrible, unpleasant things get done, people in charge in scary times do things that hindsight might deem unnecessary and that their nice sensitive liberal diversity-loving great-grandchildren living in peacetime might not like.

First of all, at one point segregation wasn't "exceptional" in the US, so I don't see how the rare or commonplace nature of an injustice makes a bit of difference.

Second of all, if I am living in a country where people can be deprived of their property, livelihood, and freedom for something as arbitrary as the content of their DNA, then I am not free and safe in my own country.

[ 11. December 2016, 22:41: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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mousethief

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Sorry, not Ex Post Facto but Habeas Corpus. Ooops.

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Gramps49
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The Supreme Court did review the internment issue in at least two cases. The majority decided to defer to Congress in that it was considered a military action.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korematsu_v._United_States

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
The Supreme Court did review the internment issue in at least two cases. The majority decided to defer to Congress in that it was considered a military action.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korematsu_v._United_States

That's a chilling precedent given what's happening in our country right now. If the military is able to abrogate our freedoms because it's the military, we could be very seriously screwed.

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I never said Pearl Harbour was the only trigger.

This is just too cute. I asked why there was a difference between the treatment of German-Americans and Japanese-Americans; your two word answer was "Pearl Harbor".
There isn't a contradiction between pointing to a primary trigger and also observing that it wan't the only trigger in play.

Do you really believe there was no direct connection between Pearl Harbour and the introduction of Japanese internment?

You weren't "observing" anything of the sort. That was your answer for why Japanese-Americans were treated differently. I think there's a good chance the internment would have been carried out no matter how the war started. It wasn't Pearl Harbor that convinced General DeWitt that the entire Japanese race was an enemy race.
quote:
And I can't for the life of me see how saying something which most WW2 historians would find unexceptional provides any kind of aid, comfort, or fig-leaf for those who would like to introduce some kind of neo-internment policy against Muslims.

I believe I've already explained my objections to your statements as clearly as I can in a previous post when I said
quote:
I don't believe that discussions of the morality or pragmatic value of internment are well served by inaccurate representations of what actually happened. They weren't "foreign nationals"; there weren't "safety reasons" for imprisoning 100,000 people; criticism of mid 20th century racism isn't an "anachronism".
All three of these points seriously mischaracterize the internment. To the extent that you believe sober reflection on past actions can be a helpful guide to improved future conduct, these kinds of errors are hardly helpful.

As for Albertus:
quote:
people in charge in scary times do things that hindsight might deem unnecessary and that their nice sensitive liberal diversity-loving great-grandchildren living in peacetime might not like.
Your deep respect for human rights is noted. Perhaps the authorities in your country will someday have need for someone with such a ... pragmatic view of them.
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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
The act of being present in the United States in violation of the immigration laws is not, standing alone, a crime. While federal immigration law does criminalize some actions that may be related to undocumented presence in the United States, undocumented presence alone is not a violation of federal criminal law.

The term "illegal" appears to be a contested one in this context, but AIUI, "improper entry" (eg entry via an undesignated point, or by fake documentation) can be a prosecutable civil violation, or convictable crime punishable with fine or imprisonment, and it is difficult to imagine how "undocumented presence" could come about in any other way (except perhaps for those who have managed to enter without documentation in the process of claiming refugee status, and have taken their claim to the relevant authorities).

Whether or not the rounding up and internment of such people is moral, proportionate or practicable is, of course, another question, but they are clearly in a different category from those who were incarcerated (justifiably or not) during wartime simply on the basis of their national or ethnic identification with an enemy country.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Pedantry alert.

There is a difference between inter/interment and intern/internment, unless the former is being used metaphorically.

A less pedantic difference is the difference between locking up someone because they promote violent fascism and locking them up because their parents were born in Japan.

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:

I think there's a good chance the internment would have been carried out no matter how the war started.

Agreed. But what happened was that Pearl Harbour did trigger the declaration of war and the declaration of war triggered internment. That is an historically accepted sequence. Pearl Harbour was a proximate cause. The primary trigger.

The underlying racism had a lot to say about the way internment was pursued. Including the internment of US citizens of Japanese ancestry.
quote:
It wasn't Pearl Harbor that convinced General DeWitt that the entire Japanese race was an enemy race.

Agreed.General DeWitt was a racist.

Key quote.
quote:
A report by General DeWitt and Colonel Bendetsen depicting racist bias against Japanese Americans was circulated and then hastily redacted in 1943 and 1944. The report stated flatly that, because of their race, it was impossible to determine the loyalty of Japanese Americans, thus necessitating internment.
I had a look at the Supreme Court rulings


(link repeated).


I think Justice Roberts' dissent is right on the money. It does not of itself invalidate a process of internment judged necessary for genuine military or security reasons. But it refuses to justify a violation of constitutional rights in the pursuit of that process.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And if I had been in charge of the US's West Coast defences in 1941-2, I wouldn't have taken any chances about possible collaborators in the possible event of a Japanese landing, any more than I would have taken chances with German and Italian Britons if I had been in charge of UK defences in 1940.

Yes, it might well have been disastrous to have an ethnic German making high-level military decisions in the European theatre. Good thing that was avoided! [Roll Eyes]

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
The practice of how possible enemy [citizens] were interned is one thing: the principle of it, in wartime, is I think unexceptionable.

Fixed that for you. There must be some auto-correct bug going around that changes "citizens" to "aliens". Seems quite pervasive for some reason.

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Back-plotting early C21 sensitivities about race and culture, . . .

The interesting thing about this argument is how often it's made by those who decry "moral relativism" in any other context. It's also very selective. No one gives the Nazis (to cite a contemporary example) a pass because they shouldn't be expected to hold "early C21 sensitivities about race and culture".

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
The term "illegal" appears to be a contested one in this context, but AIUI, "improper entry" (eg entry via an undesignated point, or by fake documentation) can be a prosecutable civil violation, or convictable crime punishable with fine or imprisonment, and it is difficult to imagine how "undocumented presence" could come about in any other way (except perhaps for those who have managed to enter without documentation in the process of claiming refugee status, and have taken their claim to the relevant authorities).

You lack imagination. One of the most common forms of undocumented presence is to enter the U.S. legally (on a tourist visa or similar) and simply overstay the time allotted to your visa.

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Barnabas62
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The distinction between citizens and non-citizens doesn't validate, or invalidate, all the rights under the constitution of persons living in the US.

Loads of links of various age can be found on line about this issue.

Here is one.

In the context of internment, the key right is probably "due process".

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I don't know whether or not due legislative process was followed, so I'll take your word that it wasn't: and of course it should have been. But that doesn't make internment, per se, exceptionable. And I'd have thought that the right of - most- citizens to be free and safe in their own country was exactly what internment might be trying to protect. I say again: wars are horrible, unpleasant things get done, people in charge in scary times do things that hindsight might deem unnecessary and that their nice sensitive liberal diversity-loving great-grandchildren living in peacetime might not like.

First of all, at one point segregation wasn't "exceptional" in the US, so I don't see how the rare or commonplace nature of an injustice makes a bit of difference.
...

Exceptionable, not exceptional. Different word.

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Kelly Alves

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Perhaps I was subconsciously trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

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Albertus
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Easily misread when reading quickly.

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
..

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
The practice of how possible enemy [citizens] were interned is one thing: the principle of it, in wartime, is I think unexceptionable.

Fixed that for you. There must be some auto-correct bug going around that changes "citizens" to "aliens". Seems quite pervasive for some reason.


Of course. these were not enemy citizens, or enemy aliens, were they- they were US citizens of Japanese extraction. I think most of those interned in Britain were actually German or Italian citizens, though perhaps some of them may not have been. Still, in the circumstances, it must have been difficult to know who to trust. If there had been- which AFAIK there wasn't- a community of Japanese citizens of non-Japanese US origin living in Japan, I wonder where the US Government wwould havee expected their loyalties to lie, and whether it wwould have sought to recruit a fifth column from among them? (I think if I'd been in the OSS or whatever it was called at the time and I knew of such a community, I'd have seen it as my duty to try to get them working for me.)

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mousethief

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Which nations in the 20th century had sizeable (not onesy-twosy) internments of their own citizens (while not in a state of civil war)? I'm thinking of three. The USSR, Nazi Germany, and the USA. Who'd I leave out?

[ 12. December 2016, 21:23: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Which nations in the 20th century had sizeable (not onesy-twosy) internments of their own citizens (while not in a state of civil war)? I'm thinking of three. The USSR, Nazi Germany, and the USA. Who'd I leave out?

Does action in colonial possessions count? Because if it does you can add the British Empire to the list. [Dis]Honorable mention at least is due for inventing both the term and idea for concentration camps.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Which nations in the 20th century had sizeable (not onesy-twosy) internments of their own citizens (while not in a state of civil war)? I'm thinking of three. The USSR, Nazi Germany, and the USA. Who'd I leave out?

Does action in colonial possessions count? Because if it does you can add the British Empire to the list. [Dis]Honorable mention at least is due for inventing both the term and idea for concentration camps.
I don't think the Brits ever thought of the Indians as Brits. Let alone the Boers.

[ 12. December 2016, 21:34: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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Albertus
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Actually, didn't the Spanish invent concentration camps, in Cuba? And then of course this particular thign is muddied by the confusion (fostered by the Nazis? don't know) between the British/ Spanish concentration camps (undoubtedly nasty places in which a lot of people were herded together and allowed, quite possibly entirely foreseeably, to die) and the Nazi extermination camps (even nastier places to which people were herded explicitly in order to be killed). Indians- well, they were British subjects, certainly, in some senses at elast- e.g. the two or three who became British MPs in the late C19/ eraly C20. I imagine class trumped ethnicity to some extent in those cases. The Boers in the concentration camps were AIUI citizens of the Transvaal or the Orange Free State republics, and so enemy aliens or inhabitants of conquered territory.
Mind you, one can see why the Americans are making such a fuss about the Japanese internment. Gives you something to focus on, because if you had to be open to the whole gamut of (much less understandable) hardship/injustice to other ethnicities upon which the USA was grounded, you'd just give up, I suppose.

[ 12. December 2016, 21:47: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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RuthW

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Mind you, one can see why the Americans are making such a fuss about the Japanese internment. Gives you something to focus on, because if you had to be open to the whole gamut of (much less understandable) hardship/injustice to other ethnicities upon which the USA was grounded, you'd just give up, I suppose.

This American is making a fuss about the internment of Japanese Americans on this particular thread because its title is "Manzanar" and because this particular injustice is being cited as precedent for a national registry of all Muslims: Washington Post article.

If you want to discuss slavery in the US and the slaughter of Native Americans, the theft of their land, and the attempts to wipe out their languages and culture, feel free to start threads on those subjects.

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:

I think there's a good chance the internment would have been carried out no matter how the war started.

Agreed.
If the internment would likely have happened regardless of how the war started, then Pearl Harbor can't have been the reason why Japanese-Americans were treated differently from German-Americans. The US was at war with both Japan and Germany, and yet nobody dispossessed my family and hauled them off to a prison camp in the desert, despite my grandparents' thick German accents and my grandmother's brother leaving the US to join the Wehrmacht and closing his letters home with "Heil Hitler".
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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Which nations in the 20th century had sizeable (not onesy-twosy) internments of their own citizens (while not in a state of civil war)? I'm thinking of three. The USSR, Nazi Germany, and the USA. Who'd I leave out?

Ottoman Empire, China, Ethiopia, Zimbabwe, just off the top of my head.

Aggression launched against a minority by a government-led majority is not necessarily the same as civil war.

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
The term "illegal" appears to be a contested one in this context, but AIUI, "improper entry" (eg entry via an undesignated point, or by fake documentation) can be a prosecutable civil violation, or convictable crime punishable with fine or imprisonment, and it is difficult to imagine how "undocumented presence" could come about in any other way (except perhaps for those who have managed to enter without documentation in the process of claiming refugee status, and have taken their claim to the relevant authorities).

You lack imagination. One of the most common forms of undocumented presence is to enter the U.S. legally (on a tourist visa or similar) and simply overstay the time allotted to your visa.
Enough imagination to suspect that the occasional overstayer on a lapsed tourist visa is far from the central issue in this area.

Concern over a substantial minority of unregisterd or misregistered inhabitants is a legitimate worry for any nation state, and is scarcely peculiar to the US.

Back in the eighties I was working in India when Indira Gandhi was assassinated, and the government reversed its policy that members of Commonwealth countries did not need visas to live and work in India.

There was some inconvenience as hordes of us emerged from the woodwork to register at Collectors' offices across the country, but it never occurred to me to think that India did not have the right to demand it.

[ 13. December 2016, 04:08: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Pedantry alert.

There is a difference between inter/interment and intern/internment, unless the former is being used metaphorically.

A less pedantic difference is the difference between locking up someone because they promote violent fascism and locking them up because their parents were born in Japan.
If by "violent fascism" you are referring to Mosley. then yes, he was a thoroughly unpleasant person, but there is no evidence AFAIK that he was a traitor.

He was anti-Semitic, he admired what Hitler had accomplished, and he believed in a accommodation with Germany, but there were many on the Allied side who shared these attitudes but were not interned.

He was swept up on the same basis as were the Japanese Americans - just in case.

In retrospect, such panicky overreactions were unnecessary and wrong, and it is tempting for us to sanctimoniously judge them, but then we are in the comfortable situation of knowing how the war was going to turn out, and those at the time did not.

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Barnabas62
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Dave W


Which doesn't change the fact that Pearl Harbour was the proximate cause. There was no Pearl Harbour equivalent so far as US/Germany was concerned.

I've looked at Roosevelt's Executive Order and Public Law 503 (which raced through Congress). Those documents formed the basis of the Japanese internment policy and practice. I don't like them any more than you do. But to argue that Pearl Harbour was the proximate cause of those documents is hardly a piece of historical speculation. It's obviously the case.

It was a traumatic event leading to a draconian internment policy. The event generated outrage and hatred. Which opened the door to the subsequent racism, based no doubt on prior prejudices.

I'm sure we must be at cross purposes. This is just WW2 history as I learned it. Including the iniquities of Japanese internment, which were not news to me. Clearly my brief 'Pearl Harbour' response was too brief and misled you about my more detailed understanding of the sequences of events. I apologise for that. I thought I was making an obvious point, not a contentious one.

[ 13. December 2016, 04:46: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
He was swept up on the same basis as were the Japanese Americans - just in case.

The phrase "just in case" really doesn't cover enough detail to justify "the same basis".

quote:
In your own words:
He was anti-Semitic, he admired what Hitler had accomplished, and he believed in a accommodation with Germany, but there were many on the Allied side who shared these attitudes but were not interned.

That really isn't the same basis as having a Japanese father.

This can only be "the same basis" if you think that the danger posed by one's ethnic heritage is morally equivalent to that posed by whole hearted public advocacy and mobilization in favour of fascism.

[ 13. December 2016, 04:59: Message edited by: mdijon ]

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
In retrospect, such panicky overreactions were unnecessary and wrong, and it is tempting for us to sanctimoniously judge them, but then we are in the comfortable situation of knowing how the war was going to turn out, and those at the time did not.

You think only in retrospect could someone see this:
quote:
The Japanese race is an enemy race and while many second and third generation Japanese born on American soil, possessed of American citizenship, have be come ‘Americanized,’ the racial strains are undiluted.
as a questionable basis for imprisoning 100,000 people?

Barnabas -

Thanks for the helpful information - news to me, of course! - that US entry into the war was precipitated by the raid on Pearl Harbor, and that this actually occurred before, not after, the internment order. And yet ... you already agreed the internment would probably have happened however the war started, so I still don't think your invocation of Pearl Harbor is particularly compelling as an explanation of the drastic difference in how German-Americans and Japanese-Americans were treated.

You entered the thread by saying "internment was applied to foreign nationals" "for safety reasons", then attempted to defend that mis-characterization by saying ""Foreign national" was loosely applied in practice", and followed up by warning against the "anachronism" of criticizing mid-20C racism. I really don't think I would describe these statements as reflecting a detailed understanding of the issues we're discussing.

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Barnabas62
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Fair enough. My initial entry to the thread was unfortunate. Foreign nationals was a term more in use in the German internments in the UK. It was also loosely applied in the UK. Churchill's phrase was 'collar the lot'. The justification for 'collaring the lot' was not racist, but a kind of safety first approach to spying and subversion risks.

I didn't take sufficient account of the much sharper race issue in the US. At the time I was focusing more on the present issue. Is internment ever justified and if so under what circumstances and with what controls? This discussion persuades me that even if there is a formal declaration of war, the racist and xenophobic excesses of previous internments should never be repeated.

Croesos and you are both right. Some of us from across the pond haven't helped by being unclear about citizenship, particularly in the US constitutional context. But I think I want to go further and say that denial of due process to foreign nationals without evidence of security or military risk is also wrong in principle. You can't just intern people, any people, on the grounds that they 'might do something wrong'.

Nor does such suspicion justify the creation of some kind of selective register of people. That Trumpism basically stinks of discrimination on grounds of prejudice.

[ 13. December 2016, 12:59: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
The term "illegal" appears to be a contested one in this context, but AIUI, "improper entry" (eg entry via an undesignated point, or by fake documentation) can be a prosecutable civil violation, or convictable crime punishable with fine or imprisonment, and it is difficult to imagine how "undocumented presence" could come about in any other way (except perhaps for those who have managed to enter without documentation in the process of claiming refugee status, and have taken their claim to the relevant authorities).

You lack imagination. One of the most common forms of undocumented presence is to enter the U.S. legally (on a tourist visa or similar) and simply overstay the time allotted to your visa.
Enough imagination to suspect that the occasional overstayer on a lapsed tourist visa is far from the central issue in this area.
How far? Since legal-entry-but-illegal-presence applies to (as best as anyone can tell) somewhere between a third and half of undocumented immigrants living in the U.S. I'd say it's pretty close to the central issue in this area. YMMV, but something more than a general handwave and vague suspicions would seem in order for such a sizable contributing factor.

[ 13. December 2016, 16:17: Message edited by: Crœsos ]

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Lyda*Rose

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And in the present situation, what about minors brought to the US by their parents and relatives? Do they deserve to be imprisoned?

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
And in the present situation, what about minors brought to the US by their parents and relatives? Do they deserve to be imprisoned?

According to the logic of internment, yes. George Takei, probably the most famous internee, was only five years old when he was sent to the camps. (No doubt the result of an unexceptionable and perfectly reasonable wartime concern about kindergarten saboteurs.)

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Easily misread when reading quickly.

How magnanimous of you.

Couple questions, though, if discoursing with a mere Bachelor of Arts is not too tiresome for you- one, what do you make of the bit you trimmed off of the post you corrected--the idea that I am not free or safe under a government that locks people up for being a certain race?

Two, how does the idea of "being judgmental" to past generations come into play when we're being called in the actual present to use our judgment about the impact of the internment when in the actual present a political official floats the idea of doing it again?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It was a traumatic event leading to a draconian internment policy. The event generated outrage and hatred. Which opened the door to the subsequent racism, based no doubt on prior prejudices.

The hatred and racism were already there. Perhaps nobody has said that so far in this thread, or perhaps you missed it.

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Barnabas62
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That's what I meant by 'based no doubt on prior prejudices'. Pearl Harbour lit the blue touch paper, provided an arguable basis for internment, and let the 'racist and xenophobic genies' out of the bottle.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
That's what I meant by 'based no doubt on prior prejudices'. Pearl Harbour lit the blue touch paper, provided an arguable basis for internment, and let the 'racist and xenophobic genies' out of the bottle.

I agree that Pearl Harbor provided the excuse. It is interesting that German sabotage on US soils did not result in as severe treatment. Whilst German Nationals and some German Americans were indeed imprisoned, it was at a far lesser rate and with more due process.

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Barnabas62
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I guess it shows the power of the stereotype, lilBuddha. "Enemies" and "different tribes" need to be readily identifiable. By skin colour, dress code, distinctive culture.

When does an understandable desire for safety and security become racist or xenophobic? The obvious answer is when we refuse to grant those perceived as dangerous or threatening the same respect under the law as we would expect for ourselves if we were perceived as risky. And there are risks for us all if we don't recognise that.

First they came for ...

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
He was swept up on the same basis as were the Japanese Americans - just in case.

The phrase "just in case" really doesn't cover enough detail to justify "the same basis".

There was no more evidence that Mosley intended to betray his country (sabotage, espionage, fifth column, whatever) than there was that Japanese American citizens intended to betray theirs.

[ 14. December 2016, 10:07: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
legal-entry-but-illegal-presence applies to (as best as anyone can tell) somewhere between a third and half of undocumented immigrants living in the U.S.

Even if overstayers constitute 40% of the total, the fact remains that there are 11 million unauthorised migrants in the country, which is a perfectly legitimate concern.

What is not legitimate is to claim that they are all involved in terrorism or crime, or to profile them ethnically or religiously, or to intern them.

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Barnabas62
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@ KC re Mosley

Possibly, possibly not. His political activities did provide reasonable grounds for both suspicion and some security investigation. I'm not sure if all the information related to that is yet in the public domain. He was well connected.

(edited for cross post)

[ 14. December 2016, 10:23: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

What is not legitimate is to claim that they are all involved in terrorism or crime, or to profile them ethnically or religiously, or to intern them.

So far as that point is concerned, there appears to be general agreement on the thread.

quote:
And from Gramps' OP
I hope it does not come to this. I wish I could say Never Again

Wishing wont necessarily cut it. Given the aggressive appointments and noises coming out of the fast-forming (not to say fascist-leaning) Trump regime, there is a a case for responding to the Niemoller warning about the dangers of inactivity.

Speaking of fascist-leaning ...

(Which I think deserves an airing in the Election aftermath thread).

[ 14. December 2016, 10:36: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
He was swept up on the same basis as were the Japanese Americans - just in case.

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
The phrase "just in case" really doesn't cover enough detail to justify "the same basis".

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
There was no more evidence that Mosley intended to betray his country (sabotage, espionage, fifth column, whatever) than there was that Japanese American citizens intended to betray theirs.

Publicly expressed admiration for Hitler, describing Italian fascism as "the way forward" for Britain, leading marches that result in violence in Jewish areas as very substantially more evidence than an ethnic identity.

I find it disturbing that you could claim that ethnic identity places one under equivalent suspicion as that record. That can't be what you mean.

You might mean there was inadequate justification in both instances, but surely the injustice done to a law abiding Japanese American is much greater than the injustice done to Oswald Mosley?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Which nations in the 20th century had sizeable (not onesy-twosy) internments of their own citizens (while not in a state of civil war)? I'm thinking of three. The USSR, Nazi Germany, and the USA. Who'd I leave out?

Ottoman Empire, China, Ethiopia, Zimbabwe, just off the top of my head.

Aggression launched against a minority by a government-led majority is not necessarily the same as civil war.

What great company for the USA to be in. Any American not ashamed of the Japanese internment to the core of their being doesn't deserve to be called such. Good thing for them it's not earned. Unless of course you're an immigrant.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
He was swept up on the same basis as were the Japanese Americans - just in case.

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
The phrase "just in case" really doesn't cover enough detail to justify "the same basis".

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
There was no more evidence that Mosley intended to betray his country (sabotage, espionage, fifth column, whatever) than there was that Japanese American citizens intended to betray theirs.

Publicly expressed admiration for Hitler, describing Italian fascism as "the way forward" for Britain, leading marches that result in violence in Jewish areas as very substantially more evidence than an ethnic identity.

I find it disturbing that you could claim that ethnic identity places one under equivalent suspicion as that record. That can't be what you mean.

Why not? When someone says that known sympathy for and known contact with a belligerent foreign government is equally suspicious as being a member of the "wrong" race, why not take them at their word?

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
He was swept up on the same basis as were the Japanese Americans - just in case.

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
The phrase "just in case" really doesn't cover enough detail to justify "the same basis".

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
There was no more evidence that Mosley intended to betray his country (sabotage, espionage, fifth column, whatever) than there was that Japanese American citizens intended to betray theirs.

Publicly expressed admiration for Hitler, describing Italian fascism as "the way forward" for Britain, leading marches that result in violence in Jewish areas as very substantially more evidence than an ethnic identity.

I find it disturbing that you could claim that ethnic identity places one under equivalent suspicion as that record. That can't be what you mean.

You might mean there was inadequate justification in both instances, but surely the injustice done to a law abiding Japanese American is much greater than the injustice done to Oswald Mosley?

If we are looking for a contemporary analogy, it would be akin to the US government locking up all the Muslims after 9/11 and some mouthy anti-Semitic Imam from a radical mosque. The first would be an abomination the second would come under the heading of "Probably wrong, but someone else can write the letter of protest to the lead singer of 'Echo and the Bunnymen'.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
but someone else can write the letter of protest to the lead singer of 'Echo and the Bunnymen.

They just really went downhill after McCulloch left in the late 80s.

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