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Source: (consider it) Thread: Why daddy's nose bleeds: responsibility and disease and addiction
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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I'm probably stepping into a minefield with this, as I consider the steps we take to hide all the bottles when certain people come by for a visit over Xmas.... The whole thing troubles and frightens me.

Some of us live in places where drugs laws are being changed. Canada will have marijuana decriminalized probably within a year.

The tendency to conceptualize addictions to all things chemical - alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, cocaine, various amphetamine drugs etc - as disease, seems to me to over-simplify and excuse a complicated thing that clearly has a voluntary component: - the deliberate act of lighting something on fire and breathing the smoke, drinking a liquid, swallowing a tablet. There is a compulsive component and probably mentally ill/disordered thoughts and feelings component, which I think is over-emphasized, that people are somehow powerless about it, with their personal responsibility minimized. We still jail them if they drive intoxicated, though we can't fire them if they show up to work intoxicated because it is seen as disability.

Where is the line? Should we hold people to more accountability for their behaviour? Should I just accept that that once initiated the addiction is a disease?

What things can someone be addicted to? I'm hearing about internet addictions, food, sex, porno, gaming. What???

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11064 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Should we hold people to more accountability for their behaviour?

Yes, of course we should. But we should also offer more help to those who wish to break their addictions and incentives to them to stay off.

Simply demonising people by talking about accountability without offering help is not only wrong but counter productive, turning a big problem into a much bigger one.

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Fearfully and wonderfully mad
Love the dinner, hate the din.
ن
blog

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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I think we can only stick to the three Cs

We didn't cause it.
We can't cure it.
We can't control it.

People have to come to their own decisions to change, we can't do it for them.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
There is a compulsive component and probably mentally ill/disordered thoughts and feelings component, which I think is over-emphasized, that people are somehow powerless about it, with their personal responsibility minimized.

You can thank AA for that -- the First Step is "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol–that our lives had become unmanageable." Too many people seem to get stuck on that one.

I would really, really love to see a true medical treatment program for alcoholism and other addictions. Every program I've encountered (and I've encountered many as a so-called "co-dependent") is based on the 12 Steps, and people sit around and talk about their powerlessness, their Higher Power, etc. etc. They keep saying "It's a disease" (and I agree), but then they don't treat it like one. A support group in conjunction with medical treatment is great, but not in and of itself.

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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The highly controversial Passages Malibu treatment center used to include a sentence in their TV ads: "This is not a 12 step program . . . this works!" In later ads the last two words of the sentence were deleted.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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Pigwidgeon:
quote:
I would really, really love to see a true medical treatment program for alcoholism and other addictions. Every program I've encountered (and I've encountered many as a so-called "co-dependent") is based on the 12 Steps, and people sit around and talk about their powerlessness, their Higher Power, etc. etc. They keep saying "It's a disease" (and I agree), but then they don't treat it like one. A support group in conjunction with medical treatment is great, but not in and of itself.
I consider addiction and even other mental health problems somewhat like AIDS. The part of you that could help your health is crippled by the disease. In AIDS, your immune system is impaired against fighting infections and cancers and HIV itself. In addiction your mind itself is impaired in its decision-making and even its volition to seek and sustain treatment. Yes, the individual pours the drink or shots up but they are not totally the person they would be if they were not using. It's a catch-22.

Twelve Step is not perfect. Yes, some people get stuck in Step One. But read the rest of the steps: they are all about thinking things through and personally doing the work to right their lives. Addiction is a disease. First realizing that gives addicts permission not to consider themselves fundamentally evil. This removes a great burden and allows them to start to manage the disease with the help of an inpatient program, out patient, their sponsors and their Higher Power. For most people with long, deep addiction medical help is the first step after admitting the problem. Twelve Step is often after-care.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Gee D
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# 13815

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Perhaps a bit of a tangent. There have been quite a few deaths from the use of illegal drugs at music festivals here over the last couple of years. Perhaps impurities, perhaps what is sold is much stronger than that the user normally buys, who knows. In any event, these deaths each get lots of publicity.

The response from some described by the newspapers as experts in the field? The government should send out teams so that those who have purchased these drugs can have them tested before use. That seems to have some illogicality to it, but there's that same cry with each of these tragic and totally avoidable deaths.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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On the festival drugs, it's the old question of whether we should treat drug use as a criminal issue or a public health issue. Certainly, knowingly selling tainted drugs should be a crime. But telling users "you better not" isn't exactly working, so maybe working in some sort of regulatory protection isn't a bad idea.

As to the OP, a friend posted this thought piece to Facebook this morning, talking (in rather rough language, mind,) about anxiety. A short snip:

quote:
We lack community completely in North America and carry around this absurd idea that we’re supposed to learn how to adult, build healthy relationships, raise children, and lead successful lives — all by ourselves. If you struggle to parent on your own or even struggle with isolation, society says you’re deficient, some kind of mutant failure. There is absolutely no credence paid to the scientific fact that we are a social primate species, meant to live in communities. And I’m not talking about the kind of community where everyone has the same lawn or everyone sings the same fucking hymnal in the fancy god building. I’m talking about the kind that aren’t scared to protect one another, step in when someone needs help, tell someone that it’s okay, this shit is hard.
If this is true, is it any wonder that so many folks turn to external stimuli that cause positive chemical reactions as part of their daily struggle to cope? And is it also possible that the answer, within reason, might not be more self-reliance, but more community support?

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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rolyn
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# 16840

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Drugs with impurities are no different than dodgy bootleg liquor of the prohibition years, and other places including present day hazardous vodka. It is tragic when people use something they believe to be safe. Because it is drugs it attracts less sympathy than someone eating poisoned food.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

On the festival drugs, it's the old question of whether we should treat drug use as a criminal issue or a public health issue. Certainly, knowingly selling tainted drugs should be a crime. But telling users "you better not" isn't exactly working, so maybe working in some sort of regulatory protection isn't a bad idea.

That final sale resulting in death is the last of a whole string of illegal sales and purchases. Why should the State carry out purity testing at the cost of taxpayers generally?

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Pigwidgeon:
quote:
I would really, really love to see a true medical treatment program for alcoholism and other addictions. Every program I've encountered (and I've encountered many as a so-called "co-dependent") is based on the 12 Steps, and people sit around and talk about their powerlessness, their Higher Power, etc. etc. They keep saying "It's a disease" (and I agree), but then they don't treat it like one. A support group in conjunction with medical treatment is great, but not in and of itself.
I consider addiction and even other mental health problems somewhat like AIDS. The part of you that could help your health is crippled by the disease. In AIDS, your immune system is impaired against fighting infections and cancers and HIV itself. In addiction your mind itself is impaired in its decision-making and even its volition to seek and sustain treatment. Yes, the individual pours the drink or shots up but they are not totally the person they would be if they were not using. It's a catch-22.

Twelve Step is not perfect. Yes, some people get stuck in Step One. But read the rest of the steps: they are all about thinking things through and personally doing the work to right their lives. Addiction is a disease. First realizing that gives addicts permission not to consider themselves fundamentally evil. This removes a great burden and allows them to start to manage the disease with the help of an inpatient program, out patient, their sponsors and their Higher Power. For most people with long, deep addiction medical help is the first step after admitting the problem. Twelve Step is often after-care.

Similarly, I would say the part of addiction that involves choice occurs earlier than the part where you're seeking treatment. Yes, you have a choice whether to drink, snort, shoot, or light up... initially. But at the point when you are addicted, it's no longer a choice. In fact, that really is the definition of addiction-- when it is no longer something you can choose, but something that has control over you. Depending on the substance, that may happen the 1st, 2nd, 10th, or 200th time you try the drug, but the point of addiction comes at the point you are no longer in control-- yes, in fact, "powerless over your addiction."

[ 22. December 2016, 23:10: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11086 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

On the festival drugs, it's the old question of whether we should treat drug use as a criminal issue or a public health issue. Certainly, knowingly selling tainted drugs should be a crime. But telling users "you better not" isn't exactly working, so maybe working in some sort of regulatory protection isn't a bad idea.

That final sale resulting in death is the last of a whole string of illegal sales and purchases. Why should the State carry out purity testing at the cost of taxpayers generally?
A few bucks so that someone doesn't die seems like a screaming deal to me.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Gee D
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# 13815

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A "few bucks" here and a few more there, diverted from the general health budget - when all that is needed is that those attending these events have a bit of short term memory and remember the publicity about those who died at the last festival and the signs they saw on the way in to this one. And the same few bucks furthering an illegal activity from which some are making very many bucks. Sorry, but I don't buy that one.

[ 23. December 2016, 00:13: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Palimpsest
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# 16772

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
A "few bucks" here and a few more there, diverted from the general health budget - when all that is needed is that those attending these events have a bit of short term memory and remember the publicity about those who died at the last festival and the signs they saw on the way in to this one. And the same few bucks furthering an illegal activity from which some are making very many bucks. Sorry, but I don't buy that one.

Taking an illegal drug shouldn't be punished with a death sentence.
It's also way cheaper to do the prevention then to spend the money on the overdoses and dead bodies. This is the same nasty attitude that spread Aids among IV drug users by making needles illegal. How that works out is pretty obvious
Pence delays legalizing needles.
The people preventing drug testing and safety aren't interested in costs, they want to punish those who ignore their rules.

You might also note that while there's a lot of bad drugs at the music festival there's also a lot of good ones. So the message that "all Drugs are dangerous and bad and we posted a sign about that" doesn't get taken seriously by the intended audience.

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Gee D
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# 13815

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Not with you either. There's an inherent contradiction in saying that these drugs are illegal and then paying for someone to test them. Make sure that people know the risk.

There was no such contradiction with AIDS, at least here - just a message that safety means always using condoms. Virtually no transmission through needles.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Virtually no transmission through needles.

No, there's a lot of transmission through needles.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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There was a news story about drug testing at festivals here in the summer. The organiser of the testing service said:
quote:
For the first time we’ve been able to offer the testing service to individual users as part of a tailored advice and information package provided by a team of experienced drugs workers. This can help people make informed choices, raising awareness of particularly dangerous substances in circulation and reducing the chance of drug-related problems occurring
Festival goers voluntarily brought drugs to the testing service to find out what they had bought. About 25% of the drugs were then destroyed.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
# 3434

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I work with a lot of young kids who are using (12-16-year-olds). I have a real beef with the supply chain. This age group is not in a position to make good decisions about what are potentially life-altering (and not for the better) drugs.

At the moment, the gangs are using a sort of pyramid selling arrangement in which young kids get their drugs free for quite a long period before the screws go on. By that time, the kids are addicted. Combine that with an adolescent brain, often parental neglect and modelling, and we're seeing a generation who see all kinds of drugs as completely normalised.

I would say that the difference between prohibition era alcohol and now is the sheer scale of the supply operation. When I worked in child protection, every parent I met was using meth. Every parent. They were also using marijuana, cocaine, heroin, methadone and a lot of alcohol. These days I meet kids who think ticking off that list is a life goal.

People didn't have access to that variety back in the day.

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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

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Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
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There is a genetic component to addictions - moderately to highly heritable¹ as well as the social contexts that introduce the addictive substances (or behaviours).

It probably means that, ironically, the addicted elders are facing offspring with their own endorphin addictions as the generations grew up in different social contexts. As we have overcome diseases we have been looking at chronic conditions and have been pushing ever healthier lifestyles².

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Palimpsest
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# 16772

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A significant portion of heterosexuals with Aids got it from using dirty needles for illegal drug use. Why this is considered a good thing by people like you baffles me. You told them not to take drugs, and you oppose the easy availability of sterile needles, because you think that people deserve a slow expensive painful death because they didn't obey you, and you think that it's for their own good.

There's a whole bunch of traffic safety mechanism that keep people from driving too fast. No doubt this is a waste of good money, and those who drive too fast should just kill themselves and others because it's not worth wasting money on them. What nonsense.

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mdijon
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# 8520

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And by the way needle exchange is a component of the Australian HIV strategy.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
A significant portion of heterosexuals with Aids got it from using dirty needles for illegal drug use. Why this is considered a good thing by people like you baffles me. You told them not to take drugs, and you oppose the easy availability of sterile needles, because you think that people deserve a slow expensive painful death because they didn't obey you, and you think that it's for their own good.

There's a whole bunch of traffic safety mechanism that keep people from driving too fast. No doubt this is a waste of good money, and those who drive too fast should just kill themselves and others because it's not worth wasting money on them. What nonsense.

At no stage have I said - nor would I say - that it'd a good thing that use of dirty needles may condemn users to a long and agonising death. Just point out in my posts where I have said that. It's just not there. The use of dirty needles was a very minor factor in the transmission of AIDS here.

Your bit about traffic accidents is just plain silly.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The use of dirty needles was a very minor factor in the transmission of AIDS here.

Are you sure that isn't because of the needle exchange programme?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Gee D
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# 13815

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Who knows why - there was an extremely effective advertising programme also. I am not aware of any data that goes to that sort of breakdown. It may well exist, I just don't know of it.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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mdijon
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Here are some pdfs showing substantial activity in needle exchange in Australia and one from Canada quoting evidence from the exemplory and effective needle exchange programme in Australia.

So combine that with the evidence that a high proportion of IVDUs are infected with HIV worldwide.

If the priority is preventing HIV then needles exchange programmes should be a priority. You seemed to be implying that this hadn't been necessary in Australia. The evidence is otherwise.

By the way Hepatitis C transmission is much more common than HIV, and reduced but not prevented by needle exchange.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Gee D--

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
There's an inherent contradiction in saying that these drugs are illegal and then paying for someone to test them.

Harm reduction.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17967 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
anteater

Ship's pest-controller
# 11435

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no prophet:
quote:
Should I just accept that that once initiated the addiction is a disease?
Why insist on labelling it a disease, if the real question is: Should we extend help to such people, not to approve or encourage, but for the simply pragmatic reason that it is more efficient? That avoid making any decision to help dependent on justifying the condition as a disease.

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Schnuffle schnuffle.

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rolyn
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# 16840

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If a large number of people are quite simply hellbent on acquiring, and using to excess, potent substances which adjust normal emotion then I would say they is very little any one, or any institution can really do.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3091 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Feel one way, and it is nasty. Use a substance, feel different or better. Suggests people crudely self medicate because thing are bad for them. -which came up in another discussion.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11064 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Feel one way, and it is nasty. Use a substance, feel different or better. Suggests people crudely self medicate because thing are bad for them. -which came up in another discussion.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11064 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
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Damn you God for this empty yearning and longing you placed in me that can only be cured in loving you.

Oh! Oh! Oh! the freedom that false god's gave me in those early days. No more unrest, no more dis-ease, no more fear, no more loneliness. Oh bring me that golden cow and I will fall down and worship.

Even if I have been told, the price I would pay for such false love, I would have loved still. Because screw you God for making me this way. And first love is always the deepest, the best, the purest. I remember her and I remember cider, if only her name was Rosie, it may have been, I cant recall.

Powerless? I was always powerless in love.

I care little for the pathological. psychological of physiological aspects of this disease anymore. They could cure all three with a nostrum, a therapy a mindful moment. Every addict I have know has fallen down to her or his sacred cow. loved them more than anything or anyone else. Mother screw you, children later I will be with you but now I must be with my god, wife well you are in love with me but you refuse to see my unfaithfulness with this hidden dark spirit posing as a drink so HAHA I get to lick it's feet again.

It's simpler if you try and think of it as that, unfaithfulness. Is your Dad, Wife, Son, friend (insert here the name of the one you love) more in love with something else? Spends more time, finds more comfort, lies to you about, spends more money on? If it were another person you would see it for what it is but it isn't so you don't. And mostly you don't because you don't believe you are powerless over the thing you love, irony on irony.

Free to choose, thank you God. And in the end only one choice matters, who/what do I love. If this were not a Christian website I would have to spell out the whole "only one God" "Love the Lord your God" thing. The joy of free will, having crossed the thin red line and even when offered a choice most (up to 90%) will chose isolation, insanity , degradation and an early death. (while royally fucking up everyone around and not caring much)

Price we pay for freedom.

Fly Safe,

Pyx_e

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It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
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# 14322

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Much though I disapprove of taking drugs, and don't go in for it, how about this argument?

1, What is the state's right to tell adults what they can or can't take?

2. Isn't it a civil liberties issue that adults should be entitled to take what they like AND

3. Should take personal responsibility for the consequences.

4. After all, this is the line we take most of the time and in most places on alcohol, tobacco and gambling.

5. Point 3 should always be instead on as the price of 2. There should be no concessions on this.

6. The sale of drugs and their consumption should be legal and be subject to the same sorts of regimes as apply to contaminated food and drink, restaurants, labelling, under age sales etc.

7. It's reasonable that states should gain revenue by taxing drugs in much the same way as they tax tobacco and alcohol.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7319 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Of course the state has a right (and duty) to regulate behaviour. Particularly when one person's behaviour affects others.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
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Yeah cos:

a/ that works (not)

b/ "the state" is run by people who care about your money not how u behave.

c/ You can not control how parents rise their kids, after those first 3 years all bets are off.

Pyx_e

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It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
anteater

Ship's pest-controller
# 11435

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Enoch:
quote:
1, What is the state's right to tell adults what they can or can't take.
Because taking substances can make them more liable to harm others directly, or become a burden to others. Ask parents/partners of addicts.
quote:
2. Isn't it a civil liberties issue that adults should be entitled to take what they like AND

3. Should take personal responsibility for the consequences.

Possibly, if the consequences could be confined to themselves. But No man is an island, and all that.

quote:
4. After all, this is the line we take most of the time and in most places on alcohol, tobacco and gambling.
Not entirely, since we try to control by excessive taxes. But that's the "one wrong justifies another" argument. I agree with those who say that if refined alcohol were invented today it would probably be banned. And I wish some forms of gambling were.
quote:
5. Point 3 should always be insisted on as the price of 2. There should be no concessions on this.
I don't give anyone the right to stick two fingers up to society, so whilst by all means trying to change the rules, you have to live with them. And like it or not, the majority in this country are not prepared to see people left to die, starve or steal because they have made themselves incapable of looking after themselves. So this laissez-faire will not be accepted. It's also more expensive to lock them up.

quote:
6. The sale of drugs and their consumption should be legal and be subject to the same sorts of regimes as apply to contaminated food and drink, restaurants, labelling, under age sales etc.
And advertised? And what would be your age limit? A feared consequence of this is that the existing illegal sales networks would then concentrate even more on those too young to buy legally.

quote:
7. It's reasonable that states should gain revenue by taxing drugs in much the same way as they tax tobacco and alcohol.
Were I to accept your overall premise, then I admit this would be a logical conclusion.

But I wonder what type of society this would promote. It's bad enough as it is.

Confession: I have zero experience of drugs outside medically prescribed ones.

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Schnuffle schnuffle.

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nickel
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# 8363

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(I'm such a literalist. I thought this thread was going to be about HHT, a genetically inheritable malformation of blood vessels. That's literally why my dad's nose bleeds, as did his mother's, and her father's, and my sister's, and numerous other aunts/uncles/cousins. But okay, never mind!)
Posts: 545 | From: Virginia USA | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Every addict I have know has fallen down to her or his sacred cow. loved them more than anything or anyone else.

Thnkyou for that, Pyx_e.

There are different drug uses. Call something Heroin and take it recreationally and it kills. Call it something else, diamorphine, and give it medicinally and it saves life.

That is the difference between my adiction and that of the casual user, or even the died-in-the-wool junkie. I never wanted to take the drug any more than I wanted the accident which caused me to be given it. More than anything else I wanted to be off it.

But the addict they love, and hate, their poison.

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Fearfully and wonderfully mad
Love the dinner, hate the din.
ن
blog

Posts: 8757 | From: Somewhere else | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
sabine
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# 3861

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
The highly controversial Passages Malibu treatment center used to include a sentence in their TV ads: "This is not a 12 step program . . . this works!" In later ads the last two words of the sentence were deleted.

The spokesman also says "I used to be an addict and now I'm not." Obviously, the Passages Malibu version of addiction is that it's a bit like the flu--take a vaccine (their treatment, of course) and be done with it.

Not sure a "get out of addiction free" card is going to do it, though.

The experience of most addicts I know is that a person is always a recovering addict, even when s/he goes years without using. Even addicts I know who don't participate in AA or NA seem to have this understanding.


sabine (retired social worker who met a lot of addicts along the way)

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

Posts: 5845 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
If the priority is preventing HIV then needles exchange programmes should be a priority. You seemed to be implying that this hadn't been necessary in Australia. The evidence is otherwise.

I was not implying that at all - it was a part of the Grim Reaper attack on AIDS that was extremely effective in reducing the spread throughout the community. As an even further tangent from the thread, there has been a recent successful prosecution of an AIDS infected man, who knew his status, for having reckless and unprotected sex with a woman. He received a substantial sentence.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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mdijon
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# 8520

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What did you mean by the following quote then;

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Not with you either. There's an inherent contradiction in saying that these drugs are illegal and then paying for someone to test them. Make sure that people know the risk.

There was no such contradiction with AIDS, at least here - just a message that safety means always using condoms. Virtually no transmission through needles.

Because I certainly read that as suggesting that needle exchange wasn't important ("just a message that safety means always using condoms") and there was virtually no transmission through needles.

I'm arguing that needle transmission is a major risk and that needle exchange is very effective and useful and should be done.

Do you disagree?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
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# 13815

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Not at all.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Palimpsest
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# 16772

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Not with you either. There's an inherent contradiction in saying that these drugs are illegal and then paying for someone to test them. Make sure that people know the risk.

I brought up needle availability as an example of saying drugs are illegal and paying for someone to provide sterile needles. I'm glad you agree that it's a good idea.
So why is providing testing for illicit drugs an inherent contradiction while providing clean needles for use with illicit drugs not such a contradiction.?

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Gee D
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You also set up a strawman to argue against me, but have not bothered to explain that yet.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Palimpsest
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# 16772

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I set up another example of funding to cause harm reduction during the use of illicit drugs. After making the false statement that iv drug user needle sharing didn't cause HIV infection, you agreed that it's a good thing to do that funding.

Yet there's somehow an inherent contradiction in funding testing to prevent harm from drugs that are contaminated or over strength.

So where's the straw man? And what's the difference between the two cases?

[ 28. December 2016, 05:49: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
A significant portion of heterosexuals with Aids got it from using dirty needles for illegal drug use. Why this is considered a good thing by people like you baffles me. You told them not to take drugs, and you oppose the easy availability of sterile needles, because you think that people deserve a slow expensive painful death because they didn't obey you, and you think that it's for their own good.

Your assertion that "people like me" want dirty drugs used is arrant nonsense. Your assertion that I think people want a slow expensive death and so forth is offensive as well. I see no point in further trying to debate with you until you clear this up.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Palimpsest
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# 16772

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
A "few bucks" here and a few more there, diverted from the general health budget - when all that is needed is that those attending these events have a bit of short term memory and remember the publicity about those who died at the last festival and the signs they saw on the way in to this one. And the same few bucks furthering an illegal activity from which some are making very many bucks. Sorry, but I don't buy that one.

This is what I assume "people like you" think. Keeping people from getting killed while taking illegal drugs isn't worth a few bucks diverted from the general health budget. Apparently the general health budget doesn't extend to covering drug users.
Posts: 2980 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011  |  IP: Logged
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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Fascinating topic.

I have a bit of experience.

AA and other 12 step programs for addiction (alcohol or other drug of choice) are not perfect. People do get stuck on the first step. People who have been in recovery for a while fall victim to their own hubris and "go back out"; sometimes never coming back in.

What I can say is that for some it does work. It works because - done right - the alcoholic takes a look at their life, what they have done and cleans the dread filled thoughts out of their psyche through the 12 steps. They get continuing support through going to meetings and having friends in the program and a sponsor to turn to for clear headed thinking.

It is a joy and an inspiration to see someone come in jittery and filled with fear to gradually turn into a rock solid human. Should professional therapy be a part of recovery as well? In my experience, yes.

All that being said, condemning addicts (alcohol is a drug) and telling them they should be more responsible is not apt to lead to a useful outcome.

Be brave and have a look at this from Johann Hari.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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I don't think addiction is a simple think to apply general assessments, treatments or assignations of responsibility.
Treating addicts who will accept it and maintaining the health of those who remain addicted makes economic sense.
Yes, I agree it is the right thing to do regardless, but that won't sell it to those who would dismiss addicts as self-made.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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anoesis
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# 14189

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Not with you either. There's an inherent contradiction in saying that these drugs are illegal and then paying for someone to test them. Make sure that people know the risk.

There was no such contradiction with AIDS, at least here - just a message that safety means always using condoms. Virtually no transmission through needles.

Did they hand out free condoms by the bowlful, at Family Planning, at Student Health Centres, O-Weeks, and the like? And were there people muttering on the sidelines about taxpayer money being spent on this, on the basis that it was simply encouraging licentiousness? I only ask because both things are/were true here. Whether either of these things were going on when certain risky sexual behaviours were actually illegal, I couldn't say - I'm a bit young to remember.

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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Gee D
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# 13815

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While I'm far too old to know first-hand either. My memory from news articles at the time is that condoms were generally available at the festivals.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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