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Source: (consider it) Thread: Those who vote differently
Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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This is coming out of a couple of very angry threads in hell, and I really don't want to tread on those toes. Rather I think there is also a place for more reasoned discussion around this.

Now I should make it clear that I find voting for Trump or for Brexit to be completely incomprehensible. I cannot even start to comprehend a mindset that considers either of these choices to be in the best interests of the world or the respective countries or even the individuals themselves.

But some of the people who voted differently to the majority here are intelligent, reasonable people. I mean, clearly wrong, but still not stupid. And the rule of any form of democracy means that I should respect their choice and decision (I am not arguing that either country has a democracy, actually, because that is a whole other issue. Just that even in a proper democracy, this still applies).

So how do you deal with people who seem to vote in incomprehensible ways? How do we deal with this as spiritual people, when the message of tolerance and care fails to reach people? Or they hear it and still vote differently?

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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I don't see that we have to respect individual choices or decisions that are clearly stupid and demonstrably harmful to ourselves and others. That shouldn't stop us treating the people who make them with respect, just as we would alcoholics or other addicts, even though those things cause great harm.
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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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What I find harder is not so much how people vote, but the basis of their reasoning in deciding how to vote.

I can talk to someone who voted according to what they see as a reasonable assessment of evidence - we can discuss why one bit of evidence may be true, and how that's interpreted; we can agree on the intellectual process just differ on our evidence and the weight we put on that; we will probably have different endpoints in mind (someone who prioritises the best for their immediate family will almost always vote differently from someone who prioritises the best for the least privileged in society), and can discuss those rationally.

I find it impossible to have that same sort of rational discussion with someone who doesn't seem to care for basing their reasoning on verifiable reality, or who vote by "gut instinct" without any attempt to assess that. That's as true of people who put their cross in the same box as me as those who vote differently.

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Jolly Jape
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# 3296

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The only thing I would dissent from there, is the idea that prioritising one's immediate family is in any way inimical to voting to benefit the least well-off in society, in any but the most crude sense. I think this could, with caveats, be true for the top, say, 1 percent of the wealthiest families, but not for the vast majority, who will benefit both socially and economically from the increased distribution of wealth (more people able to buy more things, thus greater employment opportunities) and better social cohesion, lower crime rate, and increased sense of a stake in society

It is precisely this failure to include the poorest and weakest in society, as epitomised by the insane austerity/welfare cuts culture, which has led to the disastrous electoral decisions of 2016, in both Britain and the US. It's hard to imagine anyone, of whatever personal or family wealth, who would not benefit from not having Brexit or Trump inflicted on them.

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hatless

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# 3365

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Jolly Jape said
quote:
It is precisely this failure to include the poorest and weakest in society, as epitomised by the insane austerity/welfare cuts culture, which has led to the disastrous electoral decisions of 2016, in both Britain and the US
and I just wanted to quote it.

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
The only thing I would dissent from there, is the idea that prioritising one's immediate family is in any way inimical to voting to benefit the least well-off in society

It was, of course, just an example. But even then I think it's true that some people will come to an election and consider what policies (in their opinion) will be best for their immediate family, and others at the those best for the poorest in society - they may well, and probably if done diligently with due consideration of the evidence will, result in voting for the same candidate. The common end result doesn't preclude a different journey to get there.

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Belle Ringer
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I live in trump territory. Some friends hold it against me didn't vote the way they did, but after looking at the map there was no way anyone but trump would win the state, so might as well give some support to a third party. (In your view that might make me an enemy?)

Then i listen to the reasons people voted the way they did.

The trade pact that surrendered some sovernty to the multinationals was a big no.

The view that Hillary is a war lover was intriguing.

But mostly what I am hearing is that they distrust Hillary as doing more of the same, ignoring the little people and rewarding the in-group big boys.

Is that complaint right or wrong?

I don't know. I dont particularly like any politicians, and where I live there no point in fretting over who gets elected. (I focus on local races)

The local people who voted for Trump come across as decent people, who support immigration but not sneaking in. I've heard no comments suggesting white racism. (Not saying there aren't any, just that I have not heard any.)

The year is only days old. Some are expecting trump to resign after the nomination and hand to over to Hillary. Is that realistic?

The lengths to with people go to justify the rightness of their views is astonishing and says we have more divided than democrats were previously aware. Long way to go in creating a people with somewhat unified view.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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It has long been a phenomenon in the US that some voters insist on voting against their own best interests. (Peruse the governance of Kansas, for a fine example.) There are theories about why this is so -- ideology triumphing over fact? cultural pressure? raw ignorance? No one knows why, but it certainly happens.

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deano
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Ahem, I think I might be ale to shed some light for you. In fact, unless you want the reasons filtered through a left-leaning, crypto-communist lens with all the attendant supposition and accusations of neo-Nazi’ism, I suggest you do.

The answer of course is anger.

Why did we vote to Brexit? Because we were (and are) angered by Governments who appear to want to view us a cash-cows, to be milked dry of taxes for giving to countries who appear to want to spend on having easy lives (Greek pensions, for example), whilst foisting on us immigrants from Eastern Europe (and elsewhere), draining our public services of more of our money.

Why did many people vote for Trump?

Because of the anger they felt towards those so-called mainstream politicians who were willing to give away their jobs in order to curry favour with global corporations and the banking sector. Ask those coal-miners in Virginia why they voted for Trump! Because Clinton said “f*** you, your dirty and polluting and an embarrassment to America”. They said “Trump it is then!”.

Now some of you will argue why we SHOULDN’T be angry. Why we should be happy with the EU doing what they are doing, and that Clinton is right, (“but don’t be angry”). But that is missing the point. We ARE angry. More angry than you can possibly imagine. Those mainstream politicians are taking away our world and we do not like it.

If you try to defend then, you will be lumped with them and you too will be part of the movement that is taking away our world.
We are trying to take it back and we have a lot of power, in spite of the chipping away of that power over the last twenty years or so. We have said enough. Stop. This goes no further. In fact we are determined to roll back your agenda. And Brexit and a Trump Presidency are merely the opening salvoes in that war.

The fact is, lower-middle and middle- classes are now raging against everything that liberal politicians have done or wish to do because it is us that pay for it, we get nothing from it and it makes us worse of financially and politically.

Let me put it clearly, we absolutely hate the EU and mainstream politicians who conspire against us in order to fund their own little nests, and that is all we have been given for decades now.

You can argue that we shouldn’t feel that way (and knowing the Ship as I do, you will do), but the fact remains that we do. Before you try to tell us we are wrong to be angry (we know we are not of course), ask yourselves what policies will you introduce to talk us down from our anger? How would you change the EU or mainstream politicians like Clinton, like the morons Sanders and Corbyn, in order to win our votes to stay in the EU and to NOT vote for Trump.

What else is there for us?

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Eutychus
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# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
We are trying to take it back

Who are "we"?

What is the "it" you are trying to take back? Your "world"?

And once you have whatever "it" is back, how do you propose to look after "it" to ensure your children get all the benefits of "it" too?

[ 05. January 2017, 14:44: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
They distrust Hillary as doing more of the same, ignoring the little people and rewarding the in-group big boys.

Like Trump is doing with his cabinet choices?

quote:
Some are expecting trump to resign after the nomination and hand to over to Hillary. Is that realistic?
Don't they understand that it would be Pence, then Ryan? Hillary is completely out of the picture. I doubt she'll run again . . . although Elizabeth Warren bears watching.

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deano
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# 12063

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
We are trying to take it back

Who are "we"?

What is the "it" you are trying to take back? Your "world"?

And once you have whatever "it" is back, how do you propose to look after "it" to ensure your children get all the benefits of "it" too?

"We" are those who voted for Brexit and those Americans who voted for Trump. Who did you think "we" are?

Fine to argue about leaving a world for OUR kids, but OUR kids are being impoverished whilst those of the Wall Street bankers and EU bureaucrats and Rumanians and those around the rest of the world are becoming richer and we do not like that one bit.

Find a way of making those people richer whilst leaving us alone to hold down jobs and having enough money in our pockets to enjoy a decent standard of living for our kids.

If you want to turn this into an environmental debate you go ahead but the same argument will apply. We want to have enough money and enough material possessions to have a good life and if we don't we will vote you out. Like we have demonstarted.

Fix the planet and make everything really nice and warm and fuzzy by all means, but don't piss us off whilst you are doing it or you will get a taste of that power we do still hold. Brexit and Trump are examples for you.

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Rocinante
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# 18541

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People I know who voted for Brexit did so because clever politicians convinced them that the social problems caused by government policies were actually the fault of immigrants and the EU. This played on something we are all prone to, the belief that our problems are all someone else's fault and couldn't possibly be caused by something we did. (Electing rank incompetents as PM and chancellor, for example).

Some also fell for the egregious lie about spending £350M a week more on the NHS. I never heard anything resembling the sort of spittle-flecked rant we were just subjected to by Deano. I had a few reasonable, lively discussions but have stayed friends with the people concerned. Just.

The election of Trump, I think, is largely due to his campaign team realising that the electoral college could be gamed by focussing on a handful of swing states. Clinton's camp were lulled into a false sense of security by the votes they piled up in New York, California and their other fortresses. Similarites with Brexit are, IMO, superficial.

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Callan
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# 525

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Originally posted by Deano:

quote:
Because of the anger they felt towards those so-called mainstream politicians who were willing to give away their jobs in order to curry favour with global corporations and the banking sector. Ask those coal-miners in Virginia why they voted for Trump! Because Clinton said “f*** you, your dirty and polluting and an embarrassment to America”. They said “Trump it is then!”.
Goodness, a Conservative coming out in favour of coal miners! Next up. Deano explains to us all how the Malvinas are in indissoluble part of the the territory of Greater Argentina.

[ 05. January 2017, 15:13: Message edited by: Callan ]

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deano
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quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
People I know who voted for Brexit did so because clever politicians convinced them that the social problems caused by government policies were actually the fault of immigrants and the EU. This played on something we are all prone to, the belief that our problems are all someone else's fault and couldn't possibly be caused by something we did. (Electing rank incompetents as PM and chancellor, for example).

Some also fell for the egregious lie about spending £350M a week more on the NHS. I never heard anything resembling the sort of spittle-flecked rant we were just subjected to by Deano. I had a few reasonable, lively discussions but have stayed friends with the people concerned. Just.

The election of Trump, I think, is largely due to his campaign team realising that the electoral college could be gamed by focussing on a handful of swing states. Clinton's camp were lulled into a false sense of security by the votes they piled up in New York, California and their other fortresses. Similarites with Brexit are, IMO, superficial.

Oh okay. Is that what it was?

Alright then.

Well next time you'll do just fine then, over on the left won't you? Good luck.

I'd like to help of course but Theresa May has just called to ask if I can help her out next March when she trigger's Article 50.

But you'll be able to make it all better won't you, with your piercing insight and "Mock The Week" style wit.

It's what I said would happen, that the Ship would resort to it's basic position of Left if right and Right is bad. Thus the offering up of arguments that we shouldn't be angry, with no consideration of what made us angry enough to vote as we did, nor suggestions as to how to ameliorate our anger.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
The answer of course is anger.

Of course it is.

The problems are of course what are people angry about, are they angry at the right things, and possibly most importantly in their anger have they just lashed out at something letting their emotions smother reality? And, I think there's a lot of evidence that the anger many people rightly feel has been directed at the wrong targets, and the reality of the world has been forgotten in an irrational urge to just smash something.

The rest of your post simply reflects that as you repeat untruths (and a few half truths), creating a fantasy that depicts Brexit as a solution to the anger people (in the UK) feel rather than the reality that it simply empowers those who we should be angry at to continue screwing us all.

quote:
Governments who appear to want to view us a cash-cows, to be milked dry of taxes for giving to countries who appear to want to spend on having easy lives (Greek pensions, for example)
Of course, the vast majority of us are not milked dry by taxes. We may prefer lower taxes, but for the Mr Angry of Tonbridge Wells taxes are not a great impact on the money he has to spend - it's the working poor who feel the pinch worst, mainly because of penny pinching Tories who cut in-work benefits and fail to legislate for a genuine living wage - all the while lining their own nest and squirreling their money away to lower tax jurisdictions.

And, even if taxes were a substantial burden on middle class families those taxes are not supporting Greek pensions (that's what taxes raised by the Greek government on their own people get spent on). The pittance the UK contributes to the EU regional development funds gets spent on development (the clue is in the name) - infrastructure etc that boosts the economy of poorer regions to the benefit of the whole EU. Those are the same funds that have boosted large parts of the UK economy in the past - is it not fair and just that having benefitted from these programmes the UK continues to support them to benefit others?

quote:
foisting on us immigrants from Eastern Europe (and elsewhere), draining our public services of more of our money.
Except, of course, immigrants do no such thing. Immigrants are a net gain to the UK economy, providing businesses with the staff they need to grow. Providing far more in taxes to national and local government than the costs of the services they use. If you want to be angry about immigration by all means do so, there is much to be angry about - the top of the list is the ludicrous, arbitrary cap on immigration this government wants to apply so that our economy stagnates and tax income to fund our public services diminishes.

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Eutychus
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# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
"We" are those who voted for Brexit and those Americans who voted for Trump. Who did you think "we" are?

I think there is very little evidence that this "we" is a single-minded constituency. There is little to unite them but for their rejection of the status quo.

Unfortunately, none of them seem to have a clear road map to the ambitions you state.

quote:
don't piss us off whilst you are doing it or you will get a taste of that power we do still hold. Brexit and Trump are examples for you.
It's a bit too early to tell for Trump, but he seems intent on surrounding himself with cronies from the world of bosses. Are they "you" or "us"?

Similarly, I think Brexit is above all an example of what I've just outlined above.

I'm not sure where its champions are except headed for lucrative chat show and lecture fees on the backs of those that voted for it. How this improves your lot is beyond me. They are certainly not spearheading the policy changes Brexit entails. Are they "you" or "us"?

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Deano:

quote:
Because of the anger they felt towards those so-called mainstream politicians who were willing to give away their jobs in order to curry favour with global corporations and the banking sector. Ask those coal-miners in Virginia why they voted for Trump! Because Clinton said “f*** you, your dirty and polluting and an embarrassment to America”. They said “Trump it is then!”.
Goodness, a Conservative coming out in favour of coal miners! Next up. Deano explains to us all how the Malvinas are in indissoluble part of the the territory of Greater Argentina.
Also, the great value of Wikileaks and Putin for the economic prosperity of the middle class. It must be true, I saw it in a tweet.

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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The thing about the anger I get - in a sense. The problem is that the anger is misplaced. "We are fed up with politicians looking after themselves and their own" I can get, but "so I will vote for Trump" I don't get (because I think it was obvious what he was going to do).

I get that some people are angry at the EU and some of the decisions made there. So am I, which is why I wanted to stay in and to commit to it so as to make a difference, rather than, as we have been doing, staying in but irritating all of the other members. Leaving the EU will not sort these problems out. In fact, most of the problems that we experience locally will just be worse.

Which I think goes back to Alans comment - it isn't that people vote differently that I have a problem with. In fact, it isn't even that people will vote with their guts, to an extent. It is that people will vote with their guts having ignored all of the evidence.

TBH it is rather like me supporting competitors in reality shows because they are pretty. Actually I don't, but the quirky, strange ones always get my support. This is not a good basis for picking a winner (as I have amply demonstrated through the years), but it isn't important in these cases. My qualification are the ones I enjoy watching, not the best bakers/cookers/sewers/artists/singers/whatever. (I have written a blog around this if anyone is interested, which is not why I started this thread.)

The thing is, in the shows I watch, all of the competitors are good (I don't watch the abusive ones). In politics - real elections - more discernment is needed, because all of the candidates are not good, and it is important to pick the best one based on all of the available evidence. Because they don't just get a glitterball trophy, they impact the lives of many people. It really doesn't matter if Ed balls wins the dancing, but it does matter if his party wins an election.

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:

It's what I said would happen, that the Ship would resort to it's basic position of Left if right and Right is bad. Thus the offering up of arguments that we shouldn't be angry, with no consideration of what made us angry enough to vote as we did, nor suggestions as to how to ameliorate our anger.

Angry largely over a set of policies pursued by exactly the sort of Right wing politician you and your ilk have long supported and who are now in power.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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If Deano's missive is typical of Brexit arguments, then we are stuffed. So many strawmen, so many unsubstantiated claims, so many non sequiturs. Bloody hell, is this Middle England, warts and all? We are finished.

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Rocinante
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# 18541

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Strange how the people who are angriest about Brexit are the ones who won. The longer it goes on, the stranger it gets.

Glad you think I'm witty, Deano. Made my day.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:

It's what I said would happen, that the Ship would resort to it's basic position of Left if right and Right is bad. Thus the offering up of arguments that we shouldn't be angry, with no consideration of what made us angry enough to vote as we did, nor suggestions as to how to ameliorate our anger.

Angry largely over a set of policies pursued by exactly the sort of Right wing politician you and your ilk have long supported and who are now in power.
They aren't in any kind of power. Their pals in Wall Street, the City and a small number of boardrooms are in power and have been for decades. No wonder people are fed up with politics and politicians.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Strange how the people who are angriest about Brexit are the ones who won. The longer it goes on, the stranger it gets.

Glad you think I'm witty, Deano. Made my day.

Yes, the comments columns online are full of Brexiteers raging, well, what about? As you say, they won, but they still bluster and rant, as if they lost.

They've got a nice right wing government - what the fuck else do they want?

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The thing about the anger I get - in a sense. The problem is that the anger is misplaced. "We are fed up with politicians looking after themselves and their own" I can get, but "so I will vote for Trump" I don't get (because I think it was obvious what he was going to do).

What alternative was there, though? Even if there was a 90% chance of him being more of the same, that's still better than the 100% chance offered by the other candidate.

quote:
Leaving the EU will not sort these problems out.
No. But (for better or worse) it will mean they're not our problems any more.

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Og, King of Bashan

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Over the last four years, I transitioned from libertarian-leaning Conservative to Democratic Socialist. So I think I can maybe tell you a thing or two about what works and what doesn't.

Anger, yelling, cursing, etc. doesn't work. I understand that this is easy for me to say as a white dude. This election didn't in any way make me feel like my rights were going to be taken away. Other people? Not so much. So I'm not telling you that you can't be mad, and that you shouldn't blow off steam in Hell or organize protests. But don't expect to change anyone that way.

What changed me was thinking outside of my own experience, and learning what other people go through. And the way that starts is through personal experience.

We decided a few years ago to adopt rather than have our own kids, so to prevent any accidental pregnancy, I got a vasectomy. This lead me to learn quite a bit more about the difference between the cost and complications of my health and birth control options vs. my wife's. Suddenly, I realized why women get really defensive when birth control is on the table, and how the system is set up so that women pay much more than men for health care. And I realized how insane it sounds for men to refuse to get a quick, inexpensive, and pretty non-invasive procedure done, while they expect their wives to do much more expensive and dangerous things to prevent unwanted births.

So I started seeking out other ways to learn about how maybe my experience of the world wasn't universal. I read some books by people who were not white dudes, including the Autobiography of Malcolm X. And I started considering how concerns that I had dismissed in the past might be totally valid.

Having a daughter put some things into perspective as well. I know that some feminists make fun of guys who only get it when they have a daughter, but realistically, that's what it sometimes takes to get us out of our comfortable existence.

So I would say that the only way that people change and start looking outside of their narrow concerns and interests is to have an experience that forces them out of their box.

So how do I deal with people who vote differently than me? It helps that I used to vote that way. I try to think about the good things that they do on a day to day basis. I always keep in mind that one vote does not change an election. And I do what I can to gently try to get them to look at how others might experience things differently than they do.

If I could impart one bit of advice to other white dudes, it would be that you rarely get in trouble for talking less and listening more.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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deano
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Ignoring the rest of the pseudo-intellectual sneering going on, which is par for the course for some on the left, I think Alan has it nearly right.

Half-truth's and lies though? Not so much. The thread asked the question and I answered based on my own feeling and those of others amongst my peers. It may be more layered and subtle but my answer is how it seems to me. Others may have different views, but the same arguments about whether they are right are moot. All I know is the people I know, both British and some of my friends in the US, voted the way they did because of the reasons I outlined.

Now, Alan goes on to say, in effect, the EU and immigration and stuff are all really good things. We saw them differently. Perhaps it was wrong communication or incipient racism amongst British working and middle classes or whatever. The fact remains that something triggered off our desire to see an end to the way things were done. We reached a watershed moment.

Greek pensions may well be, in reality, a very minor point Alan, but it was no just that, as I"m sure you will understand. That was one of many things that dripped out of the EU on a constant basis. For twenty or thirty years, since we moved from the EEC to the EU there has been a movement in Britain against the EU. We did not need "them" telling "us" what to do. The more they did the more we resented it.

It's probably a pride thing. We remembered (just in some cases) when Britain was Great, and we want it back. We recognised that we would never get in that position again from within the EU, and our anger a bitterness grew with every little bit of chipping away at our country's rights as a sovereign nation, so we said "out".

Is there also some buried racism amongst those white, working and middle classes in Britain? Yes, possibly, but I don't think it will go away. We bury it and keep it in chefor the most part, but I suspect it's there, just waiting for us to be given the chance to use it safely. If there were another referendum in the summer to reduce the immigration cap to zero Alan, how do you think that result would go?

Perhaps they are one and they same thing and go back to pride in what Britain once was and that we don't need help from anyone to get back to it, not the EU or immigrants. In fact, in our anger, we say a pox on both of them; we need neither to be a strong country, and very possibly both have made us weaker.

So, poor politicians, bad communication, a deep-seated and resentful anger, and latent racism amongst the most powerful voting blocs all led up to Brexit. Perhaps they also explain Trump. Who knows.

But I do know that we will be leaving the EU and there it stands regardless.

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quetzalcoatl
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Yeah, I remember when Britain was Great. My parents lived in a slum with no bathroom, and damp running down the wall, and at the end of the week, they didn't have two pennies to rub together. In fact, it was bloody Great.

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Anselmina
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I understand the anger which may have generated votes for Brexit and Trump. I, too, feel angry about things in the European Union which shouldn't be happening. I also feel angry against the government in Westminster and our local Assembly.

But just because I know there are some processes and people I don't trust, or have reason to doubt, doesn't mean I'm willing to begin trusting a whole other set of politicians - not very articulate or impressive ones at that - without hearing very specifically what they are going to do, and how they're going to do it.

I'm astonished at the high level of blind trust given to the pro-Brexit politicos by the voting public. It's like saying, I distrust politics and politicians so much I'm going to give as much power as I can to this other bunch of politicians, to process some other kind of politics for me to live by. The only difference being - to date - no-one knows what the hell's going on now.

Similarly, how is it possible to object to the undoubted imperfections of Clinton and not see the objections to Trump as President?

If you objected to Clinton because she's pro-abortion, potentially a criminal, defensive of her husband's sexual behaviour, supposedly a war-monger; why weren't you even more appalled by Trump's mocking a disabled man, attacking of the parents of a dead soldier, admitted pussy-grabbing sexual-assualts of women, his admitted 'truth hyperbole' use of lies to gain his objects, dodgy business techniques, out of court settlement deals; demonstrably false claims throughout his hustings and debate appearances; his appointments of friends, family and business colleagues (including campaign donors) to influential positions; his brown-nosing of Putin; his attempts at 'suggesting' Farage should be appointed Ambassador; his allergy to press conferences and accountability, and his twitchy, thin-skinned tantrums on Twitter.

How is a guy - to whom no-one has probably ever seriously said 'no' to - going to suddenly acquire the political nous, compassion, wisdom, humanity, knowledge and ability to effectively rule the free world?

We're called to pray for those in authority. That's what I'll do. Even though I believe that in these cases (as in others to varying degrees) these folks are dangerously in authority over us, I'll still pray that God's will be done. But I don't understand how anyone could've voted for either Brexit or Trump, and maintained a rational argument for doing so.

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Rocinante
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To return to the OP, and how we deal with people who've voted in ways incomprehensible to us, I think the answer is: as we've always dealt with them, as friends, colleagues and fellow-citizens. This can be quite hard when all that seems to be coming back the other way is accusations of being unpatriotic "enemies of the people", etc. I'm no spiritual giant, but there needs to be some forgiveness on both sides.

Those of us who voted the other way need to say: OK, you won. A decision has been made. Now make it work; impress us with the brilliant rebirth of this once-great nation, even though many of us thought it was doing fine already, thanks.

A word of warning though: you are now the government. You are in charge. We're the insurgents now.

And any talk of returning the glory days of Empire is for the birds. The Americans, Russians and Chinese will have plenty to say about that.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
If there were another referendum in the summer to reduce the immigration cap to zero Alan, how do you think that result would go?

I'd hope the country would have had it's fill of stupidity and vote conclusively against. If stupidity reigns again I will try my best to get a job in a more sensible nation (anywhere in the EU would do) and move out - at least it will give someone else the chance to come into the UK. At the end of June I did actually look at what was available in Ireland, but fortunately I live in a nation with enough common sense to vote to remain in the EU which was enough to give me hope that we're not as stupid as the referendum result suggested.

quote:
But I do know that we will be leaving the EU and there it stands regardless.
It does look like that is going to happen. Though perhaps Scotland can stay in if Westmonster permits us to have another referendum in independence. But, it's still not too late to admit that Brexit is unworkable and see whether we can mend bridges with our fellow Europeans. If the UK continues down the road we're blindly stumbling along I predict strong pressure for a rejoin the EU referendum around 2030.

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L'organist
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I hope the In/Out referendum isn't re-run: but if it is then prepare for an even larger Out vote. And if you wonder why this might be it is the attitude of the Remain camp since the referendum in June 2017, which has been to label Out voters as dim, stupid and racist - in fact the very condescending attitudes that prompted many to vote Out in the first place. What it may achieve a second time around is an even larger vote for Out.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by deano:

Perhaps they are one and they same thing and go back to pride in what Britain once was and that we don't need help from anyone to get back to it, not the EU or immigrants.

It is hard to respond to this without understanding what you mean by 'what Britain once was'. However, the problem is that the historical contingencies that allowed Britain to be come 'what it once was' are generally no longer present.

The changes that you rail against have been largely wrought by the governments of the Right - who have acted in the interests of their own class and will continue to do so.

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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Though perhaps Scotland can stay in if Westmonster permits us to have another referendum in independence.

Please God save us from anymore caucuses with dreams of a better way for some small defined sample of the people around them - will you be advocating a 2 stage referendum? Ie round one based on what you'd like to negotiate (presumably based on the last White Paper from the Scottish Executive), and then round 2 on the final deal once negotiated - or is that just sauce for the Brexit goose?

And "Westmonster" is right up there with "EUSSR" - Brexiteers and Scexiteers are sisters under the skin.... (with apologies to Mr Kipling).

[ 05. January 2017, 16:47: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]

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And is it true? For if it is....

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betjemaniac
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sorry if that is a little intemperate in tone, but my point stands - I can cope with whatever side of the line people came down on last year (with regards to Brexit anyway, Trump I'm still slightly boggling at), but I'm losing the will to live with the thought of anymore line drawing for people to take sides on!

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And is it true? For if it is....

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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The USA and UK are the focus of this aren't they, or are there other countries with this anger and recent voting thing? Maybe France. Not Germany. Not Canada. Possibly Australia.

Both the UK and USA seem to me to be wanting to fulfil some sort of pretentious illusions of exceptional destinies which have been passed between these English-speaking nations. Some accomplishments have been pretty praiseworthy, though progressively more pitiful. Neither are down nor out, but are moving in that direction. I don't think either will successfully reinvent themselves and revive with the cruel directions they are choosing. I think Scotland and California would be well to get out of their unions, both of which seem remote in possibility, though social media loves them. Or could they articulate conditions for staying in?

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We must learn to live in harmony with nature. If we don't cease believing we can master and dominate it, life on Earth may be crippled or destroyed.
(formerly known more succinctly as "no prophet"), either way not be taken seriously. \_(ツ)_/

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John Holding

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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

I get that some people are angry at the EU and some of the decisions made there. So am I, which is why I wanted to stay in and to commit to it so as to make a difference, rather than, as we have been doing, staying in but irritating all of the other members.

I'm not part of either issue, and I make no comment on the merits of either side. (I would note in passing, however, that the sense of violated entitlement in both losing sides is a little unsettling.)

But what you've said in what I quoted, to many on the other sides, sounds an awful lot like what ?Oscar Wilde? said about second marriage -- the triumph of hope over experience.

John

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betjemaniac
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X-posted with John Holding - reply to one up...

Hmmm, I'm not convinced - I think there's more about than just the US, UK and France - I suspect the German and Dutch elections are going to be interesting this year. I don't think Mr Wilders is going to win in Holland, but I do think his party, and the AfD in Germany, are going to do well.

Austria's just come within an inch (the first time round at least) of electing a far right president - even though it didn't happen that does mean a lot of voters had to countenance/vote for him; Italy's Five Star movement seemed to be on the populous left, but is now tearing itself apart after Grillo called for the repatriation of migrants; Syriza and Podemos are nothing if not populist in Greece and Spain. Then there's populist Hindu nationalism on the rise in India, similar trajectories elsewhere....

Not confined to the anglo-sphere by any means.

[ 05. January 2017, 17:00: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]

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And is it true? For if it is....

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
We remembered (just in some cases) when Britain was Great, and we want it back.

Thanks for ignoring my earlier questions [Disappointed]

It is well known that nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

Even if Britain was once Great (whatever that means), and even if there were to be merit in wanting it back, aspiring to such things is not the same thing as devising a roadmap to get there.

One might not like the road down which a country appears to be travelling, but driving off a cliff rather than stay on it does not bode well for putting things back to how they were before.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Sioni Sais
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Great Britain was never a description of economic or political standing, as some wish it to be (or to have been): it was a geographical description. It will still be Great Britain when it is as poor as a church mouse.

The more relevant title is "United Kingdom" but that looks downright misleading nowadays.

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
How would you change the EU or mainstream politicians like Clinton, like the morons Sanders and Corbyn, in order to win our votes to stay in the EU and to NOT vote for Trump.

What else is there for us?

Oh let's see.
What were the policies in place when Britain was great?
Well, there was Keynesian economics, there were strong unions keeping wages up, there was a properly funded socialised NHS, there were restraints upon the powers of the stockmarkets, banks and the financial sector, and there was at least moderate gestures in the direction of social democracy keeping society from getting too unequal or even making it more equal.

So there are people who're suggesting actually giving another try to the economic and social policies that were in force when Britain was great as you put it. But you're dismissing them as morons.
So, no, there's not really a lot that the left can offer you.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Alan Cresswell

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I thought they were harking back a bit further than that. When Britain (well, some British people) were rich from importing raw materials to feed the factories of Britain, exporting finished products around the world. A greatness built on exploiting the natural resources and people of the Empire, on dark satanic mills and workhouses exploiting the poor of the UK, the navy that could send gunboats up any river we wanted to force nations to accept our products (and opium made people very rich even then). I can see how that vision of Britain the great trading nation is compatible with the dreams of UKIP and Tories, unhindered by pesky details of EU legislation or human rights.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I can see how that vision of Britain the great trading nation is compatible with the dreams of UKIP and Tories, unhindered by pesky details of EU legislation or human rights.

The problem is that the historical contingencies that made that possible no longer exist, and that particular vision will not serve the majority of the people who voted UKIP/Tory.
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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I thought they were harking back a bit further than that.

He was specifically talking about rising living standards for people like himself.
Living standards for people other than the 1% rose steadily after the Second World War with Attlee's government and then plateaued in the early 80s under Thatcher.(*) (The 1% have just kept rising.)

(*) Obviously as people who are on career ladders generally rise up them, people who haven't fallen off will generally be better off now than they individually were ten years ago. But they aren't on average better off than their counterparts were ten years ago.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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deano
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So what is the answer?

To remain in the EU and "manage decline" gracefully like the Wilson/Heath/Callaghan era?

Or to "rage against the dying of the light" and throw off what seems to be holding us back.

We may lose everything outside the EU or we may win big. Either way we will not be a small cog. Nothing or all.

And why not aspire to a truly Great Britain again. Why not. What else do we want our country to be? Alan would have it broken to pieces, others reduced to a bail-out provider for a greater EU.

Me? Not so much. Everything on red please, all or nothing and if it ends up as nothing so be it. At least that's better than life in a National Nursing Home for past it countries, waiting for the IMF and World Bank to ease our passage into the netherworld of being a federal state within the United States of Europe.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Great Britain was never a description of economic or political standing, as some wish it to be (or to have been): it was a geographical description. It will still be Great Britain when it is as poor as a church mouse.

The irony also being that when anyone embarks on a romantic journey backwards to locate the magical time when Britain was Great, they are also going on a sliding scale downwards in terms of the deprivations endured by the majority. Only a relative few enjoyed the spoils of Britain's apparent Greatness from the reign of Queen Elizabeth 1 to that of Queen Elizabeth 11 some 350 yrs later.

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The future will be arriving shorty

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Ricardus
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Returning to the OP, I think we need to acknowledge a tension between two aims:

a.) How can I understand why people act in irrational ways?
b.) How can I persuade them to act otherwise?

I think these aims are in tension because in order to answer (a), I think you do need to entertain the possibility that they and not you may be right.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by deano:

To remain in the EU and "manage decline" gracefully like the Wilson/Heath/Callaghan era?
[...]

At least that's better than life in a National Nursing Home for past it countries, waiting for the IMF and World Bank to ease our passage into the netherworld of being a federal state within the United States of Europe.

Speaking as one who has been trying to defend the Leave position on the main Brexit thread, I'm not sure that the above depressing picture of a dying Britain is entirely compatible with the Brexiteer assertion that Britain, as the fifth largest economy in the world, is absolutely hot potatoes and everyone else will be queuing up to make trade deals with us.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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W Hyatt
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The thing about the anger I get - in a sense. The problem is that the anger is misplaced. "We are fed up with politicians looking after themselves and their own" I can get, but "so I will vote for Trump" I don't get (because I think it was obvious what he was going to do).

What alternative was there, though? Even if there was a 90% chance of him being more of the same, that's still better than the 100% chance offered by the other candidate.
I could understand that kind of reasoning if policy positions were all that mattered. The problem is that it is too likely that Trump will go well beyond implementing policies and lead the country into dangerous situations (and possibly war) based on petty and personal vindictiveness. He has shown himself to be an amoral narcissist with no impulse control and the emotional maturity of a six year old. Those who voted for him should not have been willing to put someone like that in charge of our military, law enforcement, and intelligence agencies.

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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I'm not sure that the above depressing picture of a dying Britain is entirely compatible with the Brexiteer assertion that Britain, as the fifth largest economy in the world, is absolutely hot potatoes and everyone else will be queuing up to make trade deals with us.

It's Schrödinger again. The UK is both an economic has-been held back from the greatness we deserve by the EU, and an economic superpower supported by EU investment and market access.

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