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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Those who vote differently
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
So what is the answer?
The answer is more than just word salad.
The answer is to point to some actual policy proposals, with numbers that add up, designed to achieve the outcomes you favour, and an explanation as to why these outcomes are better.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I'm not sure that the above depressing picture of a dying Britain is entirely compatible with the Brexiteer assertion that Britain, as the fifth largest economy in the world, is absolutely hot potatoes and everyone else will be queuing up to make trade deals with us.
It's Schrödinger again. The UK is both an economic has-been held back from the greatness we deserve by the EU, and an economic superpower supported by EU investment and market access.
I've noticed this shift among Brexiters of my acquaintance. Before the vote, Britain was Great and didn't need the EU or pesky immigrants. Unfurl the union flags, let them float! We are the envy of less happier lands! Now we're a basket-case and the EU is doing its best to finish us off. Calling people on it tends to make them cross, but making Brexiters cross is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
Schroeinger's Cat: quote:
I cannot even start to comprehend a mindset that . . . .
So here is the problem. Until you can at least begin to understand, you'll find it harder to relate to those who think differently to you.
Now this has limits, as I know since I was brought up as a Jehovah's witness (see, I even still get their name right: capital J small w - these things can be important). And I know their theology in depth, and am not able to accord it the status of being an intellectually permissible option. So all I can do with them is allow them their space in a free society.
With Brexit after initially being rather pissed off with the result (though not as much as many) I decided to see if there were any good things - at all - to be said for it, and concluded that there were, so whilst still of the view that it was a mistake, I do include it as an intellectually permissible option.
I like to go back to a remark by Bertrand Russel in his excellent popular history of Western philosophy, where he had a digression on how he came to grips with Augustine, whose ideas he thought stupid and obnoxious. And he came to the conclusion that whenever he was totally unable to have any sympathy with a viewpoint supported by many who on all other objective grounds were intelligent and honest and expert, he concluded that this was a weakness in him. So he started to comprehend the mindset of Augustine. He never got to agree with him, but did get to see that there was much to admire.
So if you admit that there are intelligent, honest and expert people who are pro-Brexit, are you prepared to engage in dialogue with them? On the Brexit thread I recommended David Owen's book, since in may view he fulfils the criteria, as does (as a harsh critic of EU market fundamentalist neo-liberalism but emphatically no brexiteer) Joseph Stiglitz.
A relevant question is: Do you want to understand? There are many who believe a tendency to sit on fences can be a pain in the arse, and I can even begin to comprehend this attitude.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
There is a story of Field Marshall Montgomery that when he was fighting Rommel in North Africa he kept a picture of him above his desk and tried to understand what he was likely to do. He certainly later called a dog Rommel.
In other words, if you want to win a debate you must first understand what your opponent is thinking.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Speaking as one who has been trying to defend the Leave position on the main Brexit thread, I'm not sure that the above depressing picture of a dying Britain is entirely compatible with the Brexiteer assertion that Britain, as the fifth largest economy in the world, is absolutely hot potatoes and everyone else will be queuing up to make trade deals with us.
If someone is slowly bleeding to death then healing the wound will (eventually) restore them to their previous strength.
I don't see any inherent contradiction in the idea that Britain is a strong country that is being slowly but surely weakened by EU membership, and that will be able to recover its strength once it is no longer an EU member.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I don't see any inherent contradiction in the idea that Britain is a strong country that is being slowly but surely weakened by EU membership, and that will be able to recover its strength once it is no longer an EU member.
Which is all fine - except that we'd be better off if we were properly part of Europe, not faffing around on the fringes.
European laws improve things - especially for the workforce.
My son is a nurse in Germany, my friend's daughter is a nurse in England. The difference in working conditions and everything else is very noticeable. It's the same in manufacturing, cleanliness of streets, you name it.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Which is all fine - except that we'd be better off if we were properly part of Europe, not faffing around on the fringes.
Regardless of the truth status of that claim, I'm talking about the country and you're talking about people. Not the same thing.
I imagine that quite a lot of people who voted for Brexit would refuse an offer of a million pounds (or euros) if it came with the condition that they had to surrender their British nationality and become French. Hard as it may be for some people on this thread to understand, there are those who see their national identity as more important than personal prosperity.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
So how do you deal with people who seem to vote in incomprehensible ways?
Accept that they comprehended their vote.
There is a big difference between thinking someone's reasons for a vote were poor, or flawed, or downright false, and thinking that there simply wasn't a reason because your own reasoning process couldn't have brought you to that same vote.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I imagine that quite a lot of people who voted for Brexit would refuse an offer of a million pounds (or euros) if it came with the condition that they had to surrender their British nationality and become French. Hard as it may be for some people on this thread to understand, there are those who see their national identity as more important than personal prosperity.
This is analogous to the discussion of "would you sleep with her?" "No!" "A million dollars?" "Well..." "How about ten bucks?" "What do you take me for?" "We've already established that, we're just haggling over the price now."
If you beggar people, they won't give a monkeys about Britishness. Likewise, all those ultrarich non-doms who seem more than happy to trade their residency for a passel of cash. Everyone has their price.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Which is all fine - except that we'd be better off if we were properly part of Europe, not faffing around on the fringes.
Regardless of the truth status of that claim, I'm talking about the country and you're talking about people. Not the same thing.
Or you are talking of Britain as an institution while Boogies is talking of Britain as a people.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
I'm not sure that the above depressing picture of a dying Britain is entirely compatible with the Brexiteer assertion that Britain, as the fifth largest economy in the world, is absolutely hot potatoes and everyone else will be queuing up to make trade deals with us.
It's Schrödinger again. The UK is both an economic has-been held back from the greatness we deserve by the EU, and an economic superpower supported by EU investment and market access.
I've noticed this shift among Brexiters of my acquaintance. Before the vote, Britain was Great and didn't need the EU or pesky immigrants. Unfurl the union flags, let them float! We are the envy of less happier lands! Now we're a basket-case and the EU is doing its best to finish us off. Calling people on it tends to make them cross, but making Brexiters cross is like shooting fish in a barrel.
It strikes me that we're dealing with various fantasies about Britain. This is partly why its Greatness is difficult to define. After all, in the Victorian age, Britain was presumably Great, in terms of its industry, its commercial dealings with other countries, its military prowess, colonial possessions, and so on. Is this what the Greaters want to go back to?
Generally, one would call this stuff a right-wing fantasy, but clearly it has struck a chord among different groups. I suppose they will get disappointed in a Tory government, but maybe in all governments, as fantasies don't mesh very well with actual reality. And people get angry when their fantasies don't work.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I'm talking about the country and you're talking about people. Not the same thing.
But, what is a country if not the collective people who live there? If you dug up a spade-full of soil from Middle England it's not going to know it's 'English soil' rather than 'European soil', the land doesn't care. Though, if you ask a geologist then the answer would be clear - Britain is part of the European continental shelf.
quote:
I imagine that quite a lot of people who voted for Brexit would refuse an offer of a million pounds (or euros) if it came with the condition that they had to surrender their British nationality and become French.
Except, that isn't something that was ever going to happen. The closest would be that the long term aim of the European Union is greater political union, which would at some point in the future probably mean that we would increasingly see ourselves as "European" and our British identity would become closer to a regional rather than national identity (akin to being a Brummie, Scouser or Cockney). But, I'm not expecting anything like that in my lifetime (much as I would welcome it).
quote:
Hard as it may be for some people on this thread to understand, there are those who see their national identity as more important than personal prosperity.
If the people living in a country are prosperous, does that not also mean the country is prosperous? Are not the two intimately related? And, just to be clear, I consider prosperity to be more than just financial - it's about quality of life, so includes things like job satisfaction and welfare. But, I'm not seeing the fat cats that run the Tory party as being all that considered about anything more than their personal prosperity. If Brexit gives them a chance to get rich then they'll happily let the rest of the country got to pot (or, so their actions suggest).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
If you beggar people, they won't give a monkeys about Britishness. Likewise, all those ultrarich non-doms who seem more than happy to trade their residency for a passel of cash. Everyone has their price.
I disagree, for two principal reasons.
1 - I've spoken to homeless people who were amazingly proud to be British.
2 - At no point did I say everyone felt the way I indicated, only that many do. Pointing out that many don't isn't a refutation of that claim.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
The people who have done the best out of being British are often the first people in the queue to ditch their responsibilities to it. I'm remembering back to past conversations where you and me talked about tax.
And I expect you weren't offering a million quid to those homeless people.
The point stands.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
But, what is a country if not the collective people who live there?
Britain isn't just whichever 65,000,000 individuals happen to live on this island at the moment, it's also the history, the culture, the mythology. It's the land that beat Napoleon, that ruled the waves, that stood alone against the might of the Nazis until the yanks and russkies got round to helping out. It's cricket on the lawn, dry stone walls and village pubs. It's the industrial revolution, the monarchy, the chimes of Big Ben. It's an idea, or better yet an ideal.
quote:
quote:
I imagine that quite a lot of people who voted for Brexit would refuse an offer of a million pounds (or euros) if it came with the condition that they had to surrender their British nationality and become French.
Except, that isn't something that was ever going to happen.
Of course it isn't. I was merely illustrating that for some people national identity is more important than personal prosperity.
quote:
quote:
Hard as it may be for some people on this thread to understand, there are those who see their national identity as more important than personal prosperity.
If the people living in a country are prosperous, does that not also mean the country is prosperous? Are not the two intimately related?
You're missing the point, which is that for some people it's not about prosperity at all, it's about national identity.
[code]
[ 06. January 2017, 12:15: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
I'm at work so can't post extensively but to address one point, yes we are probably the worlds 5th strongest economy with good trading power, however who wants to settle for 5th?
Why not go for 1st?
We have the chance to do that outside of the EU, but the EU would never allow us to do that.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
we are probably the worlds 5th strongest economy with good trading power, however who wants to settle for 5th?
8th, and falling. By why settle for that? We could be the very worst.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's fantasy time.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
we are probably the worlds 5th strongest economy with good trading power, however who wants to settle for 5th?
8th, and falling. By why settle for that? We could be the very worst.
Well, after 5 years of Brexit, we might be in double figures, i.e. 10th or lower. Hey, this gambling malarkey is fun, eh?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's fantasy time.
No. It's disruptive, as in a disruptive technology. Whatever happens from now will be different.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
It's disruptive, as in a disruptive technology
What, like Steorn's Orbo?
Disruptive technology is not disruptive unless it has all of these things. If it doesn't have them, it's just a disaster for those concerned.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's fantasy time.
No. It's disruptive, as in a disruptive technology. Whatever happens from now will be different.
Well, yes, fantasies are often disruptive. I could regale you with many stories about individuals who suffered from ongoing fantasies which wrecked their lives. I would think that nation states might also be prone to this, but I guess we are in for some empirical testing!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Which is all fine - except that we'd be better off if we were properly part of Europe, not faffing around on the fringes.
Regardless of the truth status of that claim, I'm talking about the country and you're talking about people. Not the same thing.
I imagine that quite a lot of people who voted for Brexit would refuse an offer of a million pounds (or euros) if it came with the condition that they had to surrender their British nationality and become French. Hard as it may be for some people on this thread to understand, there are those who see their national identity as more important than personal prosperity.
I'm not talking prosperity, I'm talking quality of life. So much about Germany is better I'd relocate like a shot if I were 20 years younger.
There is a big difference between money and quality of life. While my son was learning the language he worked in many low status jobs - chambermaid, waiter, career etc. He was treated so well. Over here we just don't have that mentality towards immigrants, sadly.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You're missing the point, which is that for some people it's not about prosperity at all, it's about national identity.
You do know that "The Village Green Preservation Society" was harking back to a golden age that never was? All the symptoms, but the underlying conditions were totally different.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I was merely illustrating that for some people national identity is more important than personal prosperity.
... for some people it's not about prosperity at all, it's about national identity.
Which is all fine and dandy. But, voting whether to stay in or leave the EU was not about national identity at all - unless you consider national identity is threatened by a small number of immigrants (which is simply bizarre for a nation with a history that means practically everyone is descended from an immigrant within the last 2000 years - especially the English). And, I can't really see how an argument along the lines of "we don't want those foreigners here because it will make us less British" can be anything other than racist.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I was merely illustrating that for some people national identity is more important than personal prosperity.
... for some people it's not about prosperity at all, it's about national identity.
Which is all fine and dandy. But, voting whether to stay in or leave the EU was not about national identity at all
Sovereignty, and whether a country can make its own laws, presumably form part of any discussion about national identity?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
however who wants to settle for 5th?
Why not go for 1st?
China is on course to become 1st for the simple reason that it has a lot more people. Do you want to try inviting a billion people onto these islands? Will they all come?
quote:
We have the chance to do that outside of the EU, but the EU would never allow us to do that.
Not if we tighten up our immigration policy.
Who wants to settle for 5th? Anyone who isn't a dickwaver.
1st per capita might be a sensible aim as long as we can be 1st equal.
Actually we were and still are the 2nd largest economy in the world. Until we leave the EU when it will be the 3rd largest economy without us.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I thought that the Brexit argument was that national identity is threatened by a superordinate power such as the EU, which can make its own laws and regulations.
One of the problems with this argument, is that it suggests that outside the EU, the UK could simply make its own. In an age of globalization and trade deals, this seems unlikely.
It also seems like a guess. I suppose politics can be based on guesswork sometimes, but it has to be dressed up with certainty, e.g. make Britain great. Yeah, but how? By inviting China to buy a lot of our basic infrastructure, maybe. Then Britain will achieve oriental greatness.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I had to smile when a friend suggested to me that local areas could train up local English youth to do various jobs, e.g. agricultural, health, catering, construction. How about the cost of this training? He suggested that an EU grant would cover it. That's the naughty step for you.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's fantasy time.
No. It's disruptive, as in a disruptive technology. Whatever happens from now will be different.
Mate, you're like a middle aged man who has just left his wife, put down a deposit on a sports car and is bragging to his mates about how he will soon be shagging that hot little property in H.R. Meanwhile the missus is on the blower to Messrs Sue, Grabbit and Runne to ensure that she gets to keep the house and that Mr Midlife will carry on ponying up for the school fees.
Frankly, the whole "Mr Hubris, have you met my esteemed colleague Mr Nemesis" bit would be mildly amusing if it was someone else's country involved.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I was merely illustrating that for some people national identity is more important than personal prosperity.
... for some people it's not about prosperity at all, it's about national identity.
Which is all fine and dandy. But, voting whether to stay in or leave the EU was not about national identity at all
Sovereignty, and whether a country can make its own laws, presumably form part of any discussion about national identity?
Do you really think laws are made for the benefit of those who elect the lawmakers? It may not have happened in Brussels but it certainly hasn't in Britain, where the rich and powerful are determined to keep everything just so. The EU by contrast have improved the lot of the ordinary man and woman almost as much as the Attlee government did. I suppose that's what the Brexiteers want removed.
Sovereignty my arse.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, in the words of Vladimir Ilyich, who whom?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I was merely illustrating that for some people national identity is more important than personal prosperity.
... for some people it's not about prosperity at all, it's about national identity.
Which is all fine and dandy. But, voting whether to stay in or leave the EU was not about national identity at all
Sovereignty, and whether a country can make its own laws, presumably form part of any discussion about national identity?
Do you really think laws are made for the benefit of those who elect the lawmakers? It may not have happened in Brussels but it certainly hasn't in Britain, where the rich and powerful are determined to keep everything just so. The EU by contrast have improved the lot of the ordinary man and woman almost as much as the Attlee government did. I suppose that's what the Brexiteers want removed.
Sovereignty my arse.
This seems tragic and sad to me, that so many have-nots in areas such as the North, seem to have swallowed the old lie that they will now be enriched by a new Tory dispensation, or in fact, a right wing dispensation. Really?
I keep seeing clips on TV news from places like Great Yarmouth and Sunderland, where people in the street seem convinced that outside the EU and with fewer immigrants, the economy will work for them. Meanwhile, austerity carries on, the poor and the disabled carry on being spanked.
I understand 'neither weep nor mourn, but seek to understand', but maybe I should be allowed to mourn a bit. The postwar consensus is fucked.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I'm not talking prosperity, I'm talking quality of life. So much about Germany is better I'd relocate like a shot if I were 20 years younger.
Tomayto, tomahto. My comment works for either.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I'm at work so can't post extensively but to address one point, yes we are probably the worlds 5th strongest economy with good trading power, however who wants to settle for 5th?
Why not go for 1st?
We have the chance to do that outside of the EU, but the EU would never allow us to do that.
Alienating ourselves from the rest of our continent, and isolating former allies is very unlikely to bring many bonuses economically, politically or socially to the United Kingdom, in my opinion. Quite the contrary.
And where the fuck was this 'Great' Great Britain you imagine existed somewhere in an equally imaginary past? Dates and names, please? You've already had it explained to you what 'Great Britain' actually means, so any play on the words has got to be at the very least metaphorical.
I'm with the poster who thought Britain was great in the period just after the second world war, when serious attempts were made to look after the vulnerable in society through welfare reforms, and the new NHS was coming into play. In addition, provision was being made for getting working class people into higher education, and there was a whisper of a promise of beginning to eliminate the elitist monopolies in politics, education and business.
Everything else before that and since then was just an inept greedy mixture of capitalism and the Poor Law.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Sovereignty, and whether a country can make its own laws, presumably form part of any discussion about national identity?
Do you really think laws are made for the benefit of those who elect the lawmakers?
How is that relevant to what Anglican't said? Wanting the British government to be free to make its own laws is not affected by which laws it happens to make.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Sovereignty, and whether a country can make its own laws, presumably form part of any discussion about national identity?
Do you really think laws are made for the benefit of those who elect the lawmakers?
How is that relevant to what Anglican't said? Wanting the British government to be free to make its own laws is not affected by which laws it happens to make.
WTF? Few people vote for people/ideas they think will disadvantage them. Those that voted for Brexit were not doing so for a concept, but for their own perceived benefit.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Been watching the match and Alf Garnet would be turning in his grave... pity.
Anyway, I've answered the OP as I see it. The rest is just screaming and wailing from those who lost the referendum. I can get that anywhere.
Bye for a while.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Just do us all a favour, and make it a very long while.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
WTF? Few people vote for people/ideas they think will disadvantage them.
Well, it's nice to know I'm so unusual then, seeing as I support higher taxes for the wealthy even though I am now rather well off. Because guess what? I see other kinds of advantages from the supposed disadvantage of me paying more money.
Whatever one thinks of the merits of Brexit, this outright denial that it has anything to do with national identity or sovereignty is quite bizarre. Of course it does.
And history is littered with cases of people who wanted self-determination even while they were being told it wouldn't be good for the economy, or whatever. As if that was the only form of benefit possible.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Few people vote for people/ideas they think will disadvantage them. Those that voted for Brexit were not doing so for a concept, but for their own perceived benefit.
I read somewhere, not on the Ship I don't think, the comment on the US election that people feeling left behind by the system were voting, not so much to improve their own lot, but to make the lot of those they perceived as better off than them worse.
I thought that was both sad and insightful.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
I'm glad that at least one person (orfeo) understands what I'm on about.
[ 06. January 2017, 22:18: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
WTF? Few people vote for people/ideas they think will disadvantage them. Those that voted for Brexit were not doing so for a concept, but for their own perceived benefit.
If the aim of the exercise is to understand why people act in ways which seem to you irrational, and those people give their reasons, and you say no, those can't possibly be your reasons - then I don't think the exercise is going to get very far ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
WTF? Few people vote for people/ideas they think will disadvantage them.
Well, it's nice to know I'm so unusual then,
See the first word after the exclamation? Few. Not none, Few.
quote:
seeing as I support higher taxes for the wealthy even though I am now rather well off. Because guess what? I see other kinds of advantages from the supposed disadvantage of me paying more money.
You see what? Advantages. You are saying you vote because you see advantages.
quote:
Whatever one thinks of the merits of Brexit, this outright denial that it has anything to do with national identity or sovereignty is quite bizarre. Of course it does.
Never said nationalism was absent from the motivation.
National Identity and sovereignty do not preclude self-interest, usually quite the opposite.
quote:
And history is littered with cases of people who wanted self-determination even while they were being told it wouldn't be good for the economy, or whatever. As if that was the only form of benefit possible.
Again benefit.
I am not saying that no one ever votes against there own personal interests, just that it is not common. And those who do tend to list more to port than starboard.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
WTF? Few people vote for people/ideas they think will disadvantage them.
Well, it's nice to know I'm so unusual then,
See the first word after the exclamation? Few. Not none, Few.
Yeah, I did see that. And I responded accordingly, which you would see if you lowered the outrage level for a while. Which bit of the word "unusual" made you think I was claiming to be unique?
As for your whole advantages/disadvantages shtick, the whole problem with it is that it immediately collapses in the real world where no one voting choice is a total win. You seem to have no conception about the WEIGHING UP process that goes into decisions.
My support for higher taxes for myself is based on a view that the loss of money for myself is not as important as other advantages I perceive from the use of that money elsewhere.
I'm going to reverse your claim about people not voting for a disadvantage and argue that almost EVERYONE votes to disadvantage themselves in some way or another. They do it because they weight it up against a perceived advantage and decide that the benefits outweigh the costs.
In the next few weeks I'm probably going to be something like 25,000 dollars poorer. I will also have a new car.
[ 07. January 2017, 05:30: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
WTF? Few people vote for people/ideas they think will disadvantage them. Those that voted for Brexit were not doing so for a concept, but for their own perceived benefit.
Yes, but they weren't voting on 'I want to be royally screwed by the good old English elite rather than a bunch of foreigners', that was just the end result.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I remember Hameron stating that a vote for Leave would be equivalent to an 'act of national self-harm'. Rather a foolish thing to say given the current popularity of self harm.
Many people were not voting for themselves, they were voting for there children and there children,s children. OK, this might well turn out to be utterly misguided as are many popular movements do, but this was nevertheless the fact of the matter.
For a whole manner of reasons something had been brewing in a significant proportion of the Electorate. The cork would have blown eventually even if Hameron hadn't produced a bottle opener.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I think for the vast majority of people "voting for your own interests" is actually voting for the interests of immediate family and other "people like us" (at least what they consider to be best). The number of people who do anything just for themselves, rather than to benefit at least their children as well, is vanishingly small - and, I'm sure that extends to voting as well.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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