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Source: (consider it) Thread: Why did Titanic sink?
rolyn
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# 16840

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Simple enough question with, what most would consider, a simple answer.

So why then can many books be written, opinions formed and theories extrapolated over one apparently open and shut case? Furthermore when does an historical event become something like a quasi-religion almost in its own right ?

(This possible non-idea came from the Post-truth thread, although I admit to being the one to mention the 'T' word in the first place)

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Baptist Trainfan
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Short answer: because iron is heavier than water.

Longer answer: because it hit an iceberg, go holed, and filled with water.

Much longer answer: because the Captain was going too fast, because the design of the watertight doors was poor, and because the metal of the hull was of poor quality.

Longer answer still: because the company was keen on the prestige that would be given by a high-speed Atlantic crossing, because there were financial incentives involved, because too many people held the popular but erroneous view that the ship was unsinkable, because there was an uncontained fire in the coal bunkers which changed the metallurgical structure of the hull in the vicinity of the collision ...

Even without positing conspiracy theories, one can go a long way back into the realms of "causes" and, ultimately, possible "reasons" for them.

To take a different example: why was there a very bad train crash at Harrow in 1952? Because the driver ran through a "stop" signal.

Why did he do that? Because it was foggy (or, because he lost his sense of bearings,).

Why wasn't he prevented from doing that? Because British Railways was far too slow in developing automatic train control and/or fitting powerful new colour-light signals.

Why was that? Because the Government didn't want to spend the money, or because some folk felt that "what was good enough in the past is good enough for today", or because the scientists weren't yet sure if the safety system was good enough, or because there was rivalry between different departments over which system to use, dating back to the old prewar companies ....

(And that's without going down the line of asking why the carriages weren't anything like as strong as they are today, but crumpled easily).

It's as you get to those "further-back" reasons that supposition and conjecture can play a greater role, ultimately allowing for conspiracy theories to creep in.

[ 08. January 2017, 14:35: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Jay-Emm
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Short answer: because iron is heavier than water.

Longer answer: because it hit an iceberg, go holed, and filled with water.

And following on from that.
The first short answer is clearly not enough (it was floating before).
Likewise the second order answer isn't really, we don't want ships to get filled with water. And were trying before then to prevent it getting hit or holing or filling water (the sealed bulkheads), and clearly weren't as good at it as we thought we were. So we 'need' the third order explanation.

But once we get to these third order things, it becomes hard to find out, we can't look at the titanic pre-sinking or anything or watch videos in slow motion.

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Trickydicky
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When I lived in Stoke-on-Trent, where Captain Smith came from, I was amazed to find out that he was pretty much seen as a hero!
One other point - I enjoy watching TV programs of investigations into plane crashed. The first order cause (e,g. 'a bolt sheared') is relatively easy to spot. But why did the bolt shear? Because the airline were cutting back on maintenance? A design fault? A known problem that hadn't been properly communicated? The third order causes are the most important. (But for the people on the plane, teh sheared bolt is all that matters).

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rolyn
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There was supposedly some eyewitness account of Smith last seen swimming in the water trying to rescue a baby.
Fairly ridiculous I should imagine and quite typical of the age, something that may well have come from the whitewash of an inquiry.

I suppose the spin-doctoring started from the moment the thing disappeared from sight, when those watching from the boats were the only ones left to bear witness. It continues to this day with new forensics and more detailed record searches.
I refrained from watching the latest documentary re. the fire in the coal store. Having watched ones that tried to claim the whole thing was an insurance scam, I'm just waiting for the one claiming Capt. Smith was on a suicide mission.

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Furthermore when does an historical event become something like a quasi-religion almost in its own right ?

When it becomes part of our society's myths and legends.

Which the sinking of the Titanic undoubtedly has, like several other past stories of pride/ambition going too far.

It can get faintly ridiculous. In this country there are still some people seeking a pardon for Breaker Morant. Who died in 1902. Not only is it safe to say he would be long gone even if he hadn't been executed, but his grandchildren would've probably died by now as well.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In this country there are still some people seeking a pardon for Breaker Morant. Who died in 1902. Not only is it safe to say he would be long gone even if he hadn't been executed, but his grandchildren would've probably died by now as well.

Strangely enough if I were an Aussie I'd probably go for that. My only source of data being that brilliant performance by Edward Woodward in the film Breaker Morant.

British hypocrisy making an example of the Outback Spirit when suing for Peace : having previously encouraged it to try and defeat a guerrilla enemy.

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Moo

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A few years ago I read a book called Titanic's Last Secrets: The Further Adventures of Shadow Divers John Chatterton and Richie Kohler.It's a fascinating book.

They descended to the wreck in a two diving vessels and took many pictures. Their most important discovery was the keel, broken in two, which lay some distances behind the stern of the ship. This means that the keel separated before the ship hit the bottom.

The broken edges were carefully photographed and the photographs examined by experts. The conclusion was that the keel broke in two while the ship was still afloat.

Obviously, there was a major design flaw. I could write several pages on this, but I don't want to take the time.

When this theory was first publicized, an archivist from Harland and Wolff, where the ship had been built, reported that there are records in the archive which support this theory of why the ship sank.

If you can find a second-hand copy of the book, I highly recommend it.

Moo

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Hilda of Whitby
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There is also a theory that an unchecked fire in the hull played a large part in the disaster.

I guess there are still things to be learned about this shipwreck.

Odd, though, that the worst shipwreck in history, that of the Wilhelm Gustloff in WWII, which killed over 9,000 people, seems to be forgotten.

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Jay-Emm
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quote:
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
There is also a theory that an unchecked fire in the hull played a large part in the disaster.

I guess there are still things to be learned about this shipwreck.

Odd, though, that the worst shipwreck in history, that of the Wilhelm Gustloff in WWII, which killed over 9,000 people, seems to be forgotten.

Um yes, I know about it when reminded.
I guess the proximate cause of that at least is known. And we've built our own evacuee narrative that would be intruded on by the idea that other nations had one (bit like the blitz).

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
Odd, though, that the worst shipwreck in history, that of the Wilhelm Gustloff in WWII, which killed over 9,000 people, seems to be forgotten.

The Wilhelm Gustloff was not a shipwreck It was sunk by a torpedo in wartime.

I agree this is totally appalling, but it's also totally different from the Titanic

Moo

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Baptist Trainfan
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And a huge number of people died on the Senegalese ferry "Jolla" in 2002, but that doesn't count for most people because it was in Africa.
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Nicolemr
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The wreck of the General Slocum in New York City in 1904 was the deadliest naval disaster in history prior to the Titanic, killing over 1000 people, and the deadliest disaster in NYC until 9/11, yet who remembers it now? Some things stick in public memory, some don't.

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Hedgehog

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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
The wreck of the General Slocum in New York City in 1904 was the deadliest naval disaster in history prior to the Titanic, killing over 1000 people, and the deadliest disaster in NYC until 9/11, yet who remembers it now? Some things stick in public memory, some don't.

[tangent]Well, me. But that is only because I am a big Myrna Loy fan, and the burning of the General Slocum is a key plot point of Manhattan Melodrama (1934), with Myrna, Clark Gable and William Powell.[/tangent]

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

It can get faintly ridiculous. In this country there are still some people seeking a pardon for Breaker Morant. Who died in 1902. Not only is it safe to say he would be long gone even if he hadn't been executed, but his grandchildren would've probably died by now as well.

And the C of E apologising to Darwin's descendants for the attacks made 150 years ago on Darwin's teachings. I am still alive and well, waiting for the apology due when there were insufficient ice-creams at the St Andrew's picnic day in 1952 and I missed out.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
The wreck of the General Slocum in New York City in 1904 was the deadliest naval disaster in history prior to the Titanic, killing over 1000 people, and the deadliest disaster in NYC until 9/11, yet who remembers it now? Some things stick in public memory, some don't.

How many folk songs were there about it? The Titanic had its own nifty folksong(s). And its story had a certain karma-type moral that religio-moralistic finger-waggers loved to trot out. "Trying to make it unsinkable? The LORD will say what can and can't happen, not man." And so forth.

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Lamb Chopped
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I think it's just because the Titanic disaster has all the elements of a Greek tragedy, including hubris, fatal flaw, and the inevitable downfall of a very great hero oops ship.

People love that stuff. Sort of like Oedipus.

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SusanDoris

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It is, I think, a very sobering thought that so often the original cause of so many such disasters is human error.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And a huge number of people died on the Senegalese ferry "Jolla" in 2002, but that doesn't count for most people because it was in Africa.

There is not a great mystery as to why the Joola sank. It was overloaded, as it typically was.
The outrage is that the Senegal government is doing nothing to investigate. Yes, being in Africa does mean it is less likely to generate concern in Europe and America, but the story also lacks the components mousethief mentions.

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Baptist Trainfan
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I agree. But what I meant is that, being an African "these things often happen in the developing world" disaster, it never attracted the attention of the world's media. The "Titanic", however, did precisely that - not only because of the hype surrounding the ship itself, but because First Class was laden with the rich and famous.

A bit like the contrast between a footnote in the news telling us of another 80 people killed in a suicide bomb in Kabul, compared to the blanket coverage of half-a-dozen killed by an ISIS attack in a European city. That's just how the Press works.

[ 09. January 2017, 07:11: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Jane R
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mousethief:
quote:
its story had a certain karma-type moral that religio-moralistic finger-waggers loved to trot out. "Trying to make it unsinkable? The LORD will say what can and can't happen, not man." And so forth.
I don't think anyone claimed it was unsinkable before it sank, did they? There's no such thing as an unsinkable ship, as any fule kno, any more than there are indestructible aircraft.

Much is made of the fact that Titanic didn't carry enough lifeboats for everyone on board; but the ship was carrying the right number of lifeboats to meet legal requirements. And it was her maiden voyage, so the crew were unfamiliar with her, and nobody had done a lifeboat drill for the passengers (again, not a legal requirement at the time) so there was a lot of confusion which cost more lives.

It is because of the Titanic that ships are now required to carry enough safety equipment for everyone on board and to make sure that everyone knows what to do in the event of an emergency. Nobody cares about 'elf and safety' until something horrible like this happens, a lot of people die, there's a public outcry and the government makes laws to force companies to care about their customers' safety. Otherwise they'd just be trying to make as much profit as possible for the least amount of effort. Hooray for the free market.

Aircraft safety works the same way: see, for example The Tombstone Imperative by Andrew Weir.

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Golden Key
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Jane--

My understanding is that much was made of its alleged unsinkability, before its first voyage. A selling point, I think.

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Baptist Trainfan
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This article - which looks reliable in my view - seems to answer the question.
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Jane R
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I stand corrected. However, the Titanic was not the only ship built to that design. The Olympic was in service until 1934 when she was retired and broken up. She hit several things in her career without sinking, including U-103 (admittedly, no icebergs). The Britannic, another sister ship, was used as a hospital ship in the First World War and sank after hitting a mine with the loss of 30 lives (over a thousand people survived).

The real tragedy of the Titanic is that most of the people on board could have been saved if the ship had carried enough lifeboats and the crew and passengers had practiced lifeboat drill beforehand. The ship floated for over two hours after hitting the iceberg.

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
The Britannic, another sister ship, was used as a hospital ship in the First World War and sank after hitting a mine with the loss of 30 lives (over a thousand people survived).

And all 30 deaths were because some of the people in the lifeboats panicked and launched without orders - and drifted straight into the still-turning propeller that had been brought to the surface by the ship's list. If they'd stayed calm everyone would have lived.

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Much is made of the fact that Titanic didn't carry enough lifeboats for everyone on board; but the ship was carrying the right number of lifeboats to meet legal requirements.

The reason that the legal requirements were so low was the assumption that a damaged ship would stay afloat long enough to allow other ships to come and take off the survivors. The lifeboats were there to ferry passengers to the rescue ships.

The policy was strongly influenced by the sinking of the Republic in 1903. The article cited has this to say
quote:
At the time of Republic's sinking, ocean liners were not required to have a full capacity of lifeboats for their passengers, officers and crew. It was believed that on the busy North Atlantic route assistance from at least one ship would be ever-present, and lifeboats would only be needed to ferry all aboard to their rescue vessels and back until everyone was safely evacuated. Unlike the later RMS Titanic sinking, this scenario fortunately played out flawlessly during the ship's sinking, and the six people who did die were lost in the collision, not the sinking itself.
The important point here is that the Republic stayed afloat for more than twenty-four hours after the collision. The Titanic sank in less than four. If the keel had stayed in place, the ship would not have gone down so fast.

Moo

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I stand corrected. However, the Titanic was not the only ship built to that design.

If you claim a design is unsinkable, then one sinking is sufficient to disprove the claim.

Plus the Olympic was modified after the Titanic sank, and the Britannic was not yet complete at the time and it was also modified.

[ 09. January 2017, 12:10: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I refrained from watching the latest documentary re. the fire in the coal store. Having watched ones that tried to claim the whole thing was an insurance scam, I'm just waiting for the one claiming Capt. Smith was on a suicide mission.

Which makes me think of the questions surrounding the still-unsolved Moorgate tube train disaster.
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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
It was believed that on the busy North Atlantic route assistance from at least one ship would be ever-present, and lifeboats would only be needed to ferry all aboard to their rescue vessels and back until everyone was safely evacuated.

I was surprised when I read this several years ago. Apparently the route was so busy that ships were seldom out of sight of other ships. And this was also true of the Titanic. Help was available if only signals had not gotten crossed.

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Erroneous Monk
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quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
It is, I think, a very sobering thought that so often the original cause of so many such disasters is human error.

I think it's a bit more complicated than that.

I can't recommend highly enough the work of
Professor Sidney Dekker. Also Professor James Reason.

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L'organist
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Actually the marine architect who designed Titanic, Thomas Andrews, had included far more lifeboats in his original design; they were reduced because the customer - White Star Line and specifically its Chairman Lord Ismay - didn't like the look of them: he thought they made the ship look cluttered.

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
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If the ship had been built the way Andrews originally designed it, it would not have had the structural weaknesses that led to its rapid sinking.

His original plans were overruled because of cost.

Moo

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
The real tragedy of the Titanic is that most of the people on board could have been saved if the ship had carried enough lifeboats and the crew and passengers had practiced lifeboat drill beforehand. The ship floated for over two hours after hitting the iceberg.

It's hard to tell how many would have survived if there had been enough lifeboats for all. Many people died of hypothermia in the lifeboats. Almost no one was dressed for the bitter cold.

Moo

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BroJames
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
[QBMany people died of hypothermia in the lifeboats. Almost no one was dressed for the bitter cold.
Moo [/QB]

Can you give the source for this? I'm not aware that there is much evidence of deaths in the lifeboats, except Collapsible Boats A & B. Even for the very small number of people who got into lifeboats from being in the water, more survived than died AFAICT
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Kwesi
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Original Sin.
Posts: 1323 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stercus Tauri
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# 16668

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According to a minister of my acquaintance, the Titanic sank because the crew were all presbyterians. By the time they had agreed on who to appoint to the committee to look into the collision, and the duly appointed committee had agreed on the recommendations for remedial action, they were still sitting around the table at the bottom of the Atlantic.

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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They might have been Baptists, keen on total immersion. (Though we do also like to come back out of the water).
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29

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I was once told by a relative, in all seriousness, that she sank because it was claimed that "not even God" could sink her. This same relative also claimed that the Apollo 13 incident happened because some network played "Age of Aquarius" during their launch coverage.

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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!

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Albertus
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# 13356

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Or Anglo-Catholics, having tried too hard to get more ice for the gin (reply to BT above).

[ 09. January 2017, 16:45: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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[Overused]
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597

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A propos of not much besides the general topic...

When I hear someone complain about black humour around tragic news events(eg. Challenger Disaster, 9/11), I often consider that, for as long as I've been aware of the Titanic(I was born in the late 60s, so mid-to-late 1970s), it's been the subject of light-hearted repartee. (eg. "She's marrying THAT guy? Holy cow, the captain of the Titanic made a better decision sailing into the iceberg".)

And I'm pretty sure these jokes were already circulating when there were suriviors, or people who lost loved one, still alive. So, I guess related to the OP's question, I kind of wonder at what point it became totally acceptable to make jokes about this particular tragedy, around the dinner table and on prime-time TV.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

Posts: 5922 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
SusanDoris

Incurable Optimist
# 12618

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quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
It is, I think, a very sobering thought that so often the original cause of so many such disasters is human error.

I think it's a bit more complicated than that.

I can't recommend highly enough the work of
Professor Sidney Dekker. Also Professor James Reason.

Thank you - I have had a quick look at both and will read more later as they look interesting. .

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Apparently the route was so busy that ships were seldom out of sight of other ships. And this was also true of the Titanic. Help was available if only signals had not gotten crossed.

The nearest vessel was the California. But crucially it's radio was turned off for the night following a rude and abrupt message from Titanic's radio room. It seems they were more interested in sending passenger's personal requests back home rather than heeding iceberg warnings.

A huge deal was made at the Inquiry regarding the California's failure to offer assistance, it's Captain was demonised and spent the rest of his life trying to clear his name. Even if he had realised the flares were an SOS it would not have been possible to fire up his ship at get to the wreck spot in time.

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. full stop for the purpose of leaving gap under post.
No hidden, deep or satirical meaning. Honest.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
I was once told by a relative, in all seriousness, that she sank because it was claimed that "not even God" could sink her. This same relative also claimed that the Apollo 13 incident happened because some network played "Age of Aquarius" during their launch coverage.

So basically your relative has the same vindictive view of God as the Westboro Baptists who link every misfortune to acceptance of homosexuality.

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The musical diary has been updated in praise of Paul Dempsey.

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betjemaniac
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# 17618

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Actually the marine architect who designed Titanic, Thomas Andrews, had included far more lifeboats in his original design; they were reduced because the customer - White Star Line and specifically its Chairman Lord Ismay - didn't like the look of them: he thought they made the ship look cluttered.

However, also worth noting that, notwithstanding the aesthetics of the ship, the Titanic nevertheless had *more* lifeboats than it was actually legally required to have. The White Star Line didn't break the mould by carrying a lifeboat place for every passenger, but neither did they do the bare minimum. Until the catastrophe, they were in fact better than most in their attention and expenditure on safety...

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And is it true? For if it is....

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
I was once told by a relative, in all seriousness, that she sank because it was claimed that "not even God" could sink her. This same relative also claimed that the Apollo 13 incident happened because some network played "Age of Aquarius" during their launch coverage.

I like how in the movie they play "Spirit in the Sky."

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
The real tragedy of the Titanic is that most of the people on board could have been saved if the ship had carried enough lifeboats and the crew and passengers had practiced lifeboat drill beforehand. The ship floated for over two hours after hitting the iceberg.

It's hard to tell how many would have survived if there had been enough lifeboats for all. Many people died of hypothermia in the lifeboats. Almost no one was dressed for the bitter cold.

There's also the question of the third-class/steerage passengers. I had in my head that they were trapped or locked in their part of the ship. But I've come across so many varying theories, accounts, and portrayals over the years that I wasn't sure about that. (I only saw tiny bits of "Titanic", when it was on TV, because I knew I was apt to get upset.)

So I poked around online, in the wee hours this morning. Most of the steerage passengers died; but there seems to be a lot of disagreement about why, and whether they were officially held back and/or locked in.


--An excerpt from The Rough Guide to the Titanic addresses: "Were the third-class passengers held back from the lifeboats? Were the gates locked below decks?"

--"Did the third class passengers on the Titanic have a fair chance? When the evidence fits the prejudice." (Independent UK) This addresses confirmation bias, and how views on class differences affect interpreting what happened to the steerage passengers.

--Encyclopedia Titanica may be of help. It even has floor plans and blueprints.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 16760 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stetson
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# 9597

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
I was once told by a relative, in all seriousness, that she sank because it was claimed that "not even God" could sink her. This same relative also claimed that the Apollo 13 incident happened because some network played "Age of Aquarius" during their launch coverage.

I like how in the movie they play "Spirit in the Sky."
Which is actually more blasphemous than Age Of Aquarius.
Posts: 5922 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I like how in the movie they play "Spirit in the Sky."

Which is actually more blasphemous than Age Of Aquarius.
I prefer the description I once heard, that it was "theologically inept." It's someone trying to sound Christian who just isn't. Sort of like Paul Ryan.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 61816 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I like how in the movie they play "Spirit in the Sky."

Which is actually more blasphemous than Age Of Aquarius.
I prefer the description I once heard, that it was "theologically inept." It's someone trying to sound Christian who just isn't. Sort of like Paul Ryan.
"Spirit In The Sky" (Wikipedia):
quote:
He was inspired to write the song after watching Porter Wagoner on TV singing a gospel song. Greenbaum later said: "I thought, 'Yeah, I could do that,' knowing nothing about gospel music, so I sat down and wrote my own gospel song. It came easy. I wrote the words in 15 minutes."[4]

"Spirit in the Sky" contains lyrics about the afterlife, making several references to Jesus, although Greenbaum is Jewish. (In a VH1 episode about famous one-hit wonders, Alice Cooper said that he was surprised to hear someone with a Jewish-sounding last name performing a song that seemed to be about Jesus)."

"Aquarius/Let The Sunshine In" (Wikipedia):
quote:
The lyrics of this song were based on the astrological belief that the world would soon be entering the "Age of Aquarius", an age of love, light, and humanity, unlike the current "Age of Pisces". The exact circumstances for the change are "When the moon is in the seventh house, and Jupiter aligns with Mars." This change was presumed to occur at the end of the 20th century; however, astrologers differ extremely widely as to when. Their proposed dates range from 2062 to 2680.
I'm usually not big on pronouncing things "blasphemous". I tend to think that only a believer can blaspheme. But I usually don't label that. I worry more about rudeness and offense, and about signs that someone might be in turmoil about their faith.

Anyway, "Spirit" was written by a Jewish man who wanted to write a Gospel song, and didn't have a clue, per the article. "Aquarius" isn't trashing Christianity--it's just looking for peace and harmony in a time of war, in an astrological framework. Kind of like after the 2nd Coming...

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 16760 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged



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