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Source: (consider it) Thread: From Roman Catholicism/Eastern Orthodoxy
Stoic29
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
You seem to think that Christianity is a geographical thing. I can't tell you how annoyed Theology of the Land makes me.

No I don't. My point is this: if I traveled to some small country half a world a way from me and they never heard the Gospel, I would not help them build a church with a Lady Chapel and eat cucumber sandwiches during coffee hour. You have to consider the culture and let Christianity grow organically.

When St. Thomas brought Christianity to India, he did not found the Greek Antiochian Church of India...he founded the Church of India.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Stoic29:
No I don't. My point is this: if I traveled to some small country half a world a way from me and they never heard the Gospel, I would not help them build a church with a Lady Chapel and eat cucumber sandwiches during coffee hour. You have to consider the culture and let Christianity grow organically.

When St. Thomas brought Christianity to India, he did not found the Greek Antiochian Church of India...he founded the Church of India.

Rather a lot has happened in 1500 years, chum.

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arse

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Stoic29
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Rather a lot has happened in 1500 years, chum.

Okay, but how does that negate my point?

Look at the mess in America for the Orthodox. Each Patriarch or mother Church tries to impose its own ethnicity, ridged customs, etc on churches in the U.S.. It doesn't work. The liturgical expression (which will extend to the hierarchy) needs to be natural and organic to the culture. If not, it will not attract people.

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Öd’ und leer das Meer

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Arethosemyfeet
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How do you square that with the largest Christian denominations in India being those encouraged by western missionaries, whether Catholic or Protestant? Should they have butted out because the Mar Thoma churches were already active?

I can have some sympathy with the idea of a national church inculturated within a particular country but part of a wider, global, Christian community. That was long the ideal of the Church of England, but I'm wary of the idea that one's Christian beliefs should be dictated by your culture. How far does this idea extend? If you grow up in Utah are you supposed to be Mormon, or is Mormonism beyond the pail?

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Pancho
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
How do you square that with the largest Christian denominations in India being those encouraged by western missionaries, whether Catholic or Protestant??

The Catholic Church is comprised of both the Western and the Eastern Rites. A great many of the Catholics in India belong to one of the Eastern Catholic Churches (such as the Malabar Catholics, etc.)

[ 18. January 2017, 20:21: Message edited by: Pancho ]

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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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Gamaliel
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You mean 'pale' ... As in palings. The phrase was coined in Ireland I believe to describe those who were outside the stockade that surrounded English-occupied Dublin ...

The question I'd have for Stoic29 as an American (which I think he/she is) is this, which cultural expression of Christianity best suits or serves the US?

They are all imports.

To what extent is Anglicanism any more appropriate there than Lutheranism, say?

If Western Rite Orthodoxy isn't for you then it looks to me that you don't want Orthodoxy but you want something else.

It might be Anglicanism. But why try to make out that it is the equivalent/parallel to Orthodoxy only in an Anglophone style?

If that was the case then surely the Orthodox and the Anglicans would be closer to some kind of union than they are at present.

If you want to become Anglican for whatever reason then fair enough. That's your choice. Your former Church mates among the RCs or the Orthodox may wish you well but they would both consider you to have left the One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Become Anglican by all means, there's a lot to recommend it, but do so under Anglicanism's own multifarious terms and not because you imagine it to be a mirror image of your former affiliation only in more culturally appropriate terms.

I'm something of an Orthophile but Orthodoxy is completely messy across 'the Diaspora'. Anglicanism at least doesn't claim to aim for consistency. I suppose you could interpret it however you wish.

Nobody's going to fall out with you among the Anglicans if you hold them to be the Western Orthodox, even if that's not how they see themselves ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Stoic29
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I can have some sympathy with the idea of a national church inculturated within a particular country but part of a wider, global, Christian community. That was long the ideal of the Church of England, but I'm wary of the idea that one's Christian beliefs should be dictated by your culture. How far does this idea extend? If you grow up in Utah are you supposed to be Mormon, or is Mormonism beyond the pail?

Agreed. However, there needs to be a healthy balance. Culture cannot dictate Christian beliefs - culture ought to reflect the beliefs of the faithful.

If you are a missionary to a non-Christian country, of course you should try to convert people to Christ, to traditional, apostolic Christianity. What form this Christianity takes, however, depends on the existing culture. The culture ought to be renewed in the light of Christ, where things that people are familiar with now have a new meaning.

You can't dump Westminster, Moscow, Athens or Rome onto this new Christian land - it doesn't work very well. Some things will certainly carry over from one culture to another...this is inevitable and historically correct. And this can be a very good thing. But most of the liturgical expression needs to be related to the existing culture and lives of the people.

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Öd’ und leer das Meer

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Stoic29
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The question I'd have for Stoic29 as an American (which I think he/she is) is this, which cultural expression of Christianity best suits or serves the US?

They are all imports.

I'm American and a he
[Smile]

Good question and a complex one. I think a high Anglican or high Roman is best suited.

But is there anything more American Christian than a white-walled Baptist church in the South?

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Öd’ und leer das Meer

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Gamaliel
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Sure, over here we'd think of Southern Baptists, say or various types of Pentecostal being more 'American' in feel than Episcopalians or RCs.

There are of course many America's. There are at least 11 according to some punters.

I'm not suggesting that 'High Church' forms are less American nor that they can't flourish there. I met a young ACNA ordinand last year and his parish in Tennessee is booming as it swells with refugees from megachurches and the 'non-denoms'.

That's not happening here in the UK.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Enoch
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On the other hand, we don't really have megachurches and I get the impression that our non-denoms usually function in smaller units.

I also get the impression that in the US, what was fairly obviously and Episcopal Church that one could call Anglican, has recently started, for different reasons, to emulate the Orthodox in having a multiplicity of parallel jurisdictions, some of which don't recognise some of the others, and some of which are linked up with different provinces of the Anglican Communion. So that may feel a bit familiar!.

[ 18. January 2017, 22:06: Message edited by: Enoch ]

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Young fogey
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Eastern-rite churches lose most of their people in America within three generations of arriving. The kids and grandkids assimilate and leave.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Young fogey:
Eastern-rite churches lose most of their people in America within three generations of arriving. The kids and grandkids assimilate and leave.

How are the rest of the churches doing with their kids? I'm pretty sure kids are dropping like flies out of every denomination.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Baptist Trainfan
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You're not wrong Mousethief, however, as a generalised comment, it seems that a pattern can be traced in the assimilation/identity of immigrant communities. This has effects on religion.

The "arrivers" retain strong links with their motherland and so (for instance) feel more "Pakistani" than "British". They may send their children on visits "home"*.

The second generation, while recognising their roots, tend to feel more of a kinship with the society in which they were born. They maintain some traditions of "the old country".

The third generation generally sit much looser to their "roots" (hence the dropping away from religious ties with recognisable ethnic origins). However the opposite can happen: they may strongly reassert their background and reject many aspects of their host culture. This can be evidenced in, say, the assertion of "black power" or Rastafarianism, or even radical Islamisation.

(*Obviously not true of all. My parents came as Jewish refugees from Germany and my mother in particular strongly rejected her background and all it stood for, making a conscious effort to be "British").

[ 19. January 2017, 06:41: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Gamaliel
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I've heard the Orthodox here say it's a big problem, particularly among the Greeks and Cypriots.

To an extent it's been offset by an influx of Romanians and other Eastern Europeans but as far as I can gather the Greeks are losing their youngsters to secularism.

The same applies to the CofE and other 'indigeneous' churches too, of course.

The West Indian churches are losing a lot of their young people too, but in London and other major cities there's been a considerable rise in the number of African churches - Nigerian, Ghanaian, Ethiopian ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Young fogey
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Good points, Mousethief and Gamaliel. Thanks.

The mainline Protestant churches (including the Anglicans) in America are losing their young too but this is recent, after a centuries-long good run. Ditto American Catholicism after Vatican II. But I think with the Eastern-rite churches, Catholic and other, which have really only been here about a century, it's always been a problem. Sure, you can prop up numbers with immigration. Most American Orthodox are Greek, and Greek immigration shores them up... until the next generation assimilates. American Catholic numbers are artificially high because of Mexican immigration; white attrition is as bad as the mainliners now.

My guess is American evangelicalism is holding its own. They lose a lot but gain and keep a lot too. Call it even?

American Catholicism will bottom out and end up much smaller than before Vatican II. It has two advantages over the Eastern churches: America's European culture is its culture, and it was so big for so long (my area, the Northeast, has long been de facto Catholic) that it can afford some losses.

Eastern-rite churches in America are small and culturally isolated. Without the home countries' cultures supporting them, they're likely to fold.

And I don't wish that on them. I worship at a Ukrainian Catholic parish 1/4 of the time. As a conservative Catholic I think the Eastern rites have much potential to reach ordinary Americans because they don't have some of us Latin Massers' cultural baggage while sharing all of our doctrine. But it just isn't happening. Just like the Orthodox, the Ukrainian Catholics move away and marry out; "the end."

My guess is the Orthodox convert boomlet is already fizzling. How many of those families will be Orthodox in three generations?

[ 19. January 2017, 09:49: Message edited by: Young fogey ]

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Gamaliel
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I heard a young Orthodox priest from London suggest that the number of Western converts to Orthodoxy had plateaued her in the UK.

Other Orthodox priests I know are less pessimistic. I do wonder how sustainable Orthodoxy is in Western cultures without immigration to replace the losses.

Evangelicalism tends to have a revolving door but can hold its own providing similar numbers are coming through the front door as are leaving ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Young fogey
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I do wonder how sustainable Orthodoxy is in Western cultures without immigration to replace the losses.

It isn't. Westerners who have the apostolic faith are Catholic! We don't want or need a foreign imitation.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Young fogey:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I do wonder how sustainable Orthodoxy is in Western cultures without immigration to replace the losses.

It isn't. Westerners who have the apostolic faith are Catholic! We don't want or need a foreign imitation.
Imitation? Even in my nastiest arguments with Bingo, I never referred to the Roman Catholic Church as an imitation church. This is astoundingly rude. Also demonstrably false but that's by the bye.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Young fogey
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
This is astoundingly rude.

That's rich coming from the church that rebaptizes Catholics.

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mousethief

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I'm not a church.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Young fogey:

My guess is American evangelicalism is holding its own. They lose a lot but gain and keep a lot too. Call it even?

Not according to Pew. Their numbers are falling, just more slowly than others. IMO due in part to the prosperity gospel and the cult of personality.
It is also not a single entity. One can find one's own flavour more easily. Something more difficult with more orthodox churches.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Young fogey:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
This is astoundingly rude.

That's rich coming from the church that rebaptizes Catholics.
I can only speak directly from Canadian experience but to my knowledge the only rebaptizing Orthodox community are the Greek Old Calendarists, who have a complicated and tenuous connexion with Archbishop Sotirios of the Constantinopolitan metropolis. I was told that ROCOR clerics have been known in the past to rebaptize Anglicans, but were told to simply chrismate. I don't know the current situation.
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Young fogey
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Although most churches have a range of opinion besides their doctrine, in a sense you are who you are in communion with.

I can believe "evangelicalism is losing too, only slower." Relative to the American mainline and white Catholicism, that's "holding its own."

Regarding Orthodox rebaptisms, here's how it works: Catholics, Anglicans, and Lutherans, for example, recognize all baptisms done with water in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit as valid in themselves. Orthodox teaching doesn't. Their true-church claims says only their sacraments are in themselves sacraments. So receiving converts by baptism is always an option, though few now do it. The three largest Orthodox denominations in America, the Greeks, the OCA, and Antioch, have agreed not to, but that's not doctrine. In practice, the Orthodox recognize or don't recognize our baptisms if they feel like it, which we think is illogical; complete hash. The Greek Old Calendarists (and there are several sects of those) arguably aren't really Orthodox, and ROCOR arguably wasn't either until it reconciled with the Russian church 10 years ago ("the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Orthodoxy"), but like fundamentalist Mormonism is to Mormonism regarding polygamy, what they did or do in this regard is part of the parent church's teaching. We think rechrismating ex-Catholics is obnoxious too (same thing: it's not always done but it's an option) but then again we don't recognize Anglican orders (us: Anglicans are Christians but a church with Reformed theology about the Eucharist can't pass down holy orders; me: the Orthodox are bigots; they believe if you're not part of their culture, you're not even really Christian).

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Gamaliel
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I have been accused of not being a 'proper' Christian by an Orthodox person only once as far as I can remember - and this was a particularly virulent former Protestant turned Orthodox who was making a nuisance of himself on an online forum - not here, I hasten to add.

That doesn't mean I haven't had arsey comments from the Orthodox in other ways. I most certainly have.

That said, I will accept that their baptismal polity can be problemmatic ... with some of them you get the impression that all Trinitarian baptisms are valid, with others that they are only potentially valid and only become so when they are accompanied later by Orthodox chrismation ... the invalidity or inadequacy is then smoothed out ...

I suppose it's a bit like those Big E Evangelicals who suppose that the only true or 'proper' Christians are those who are evangelical in some way ...

It's certainly an issue.

An Orthodox priest once told me that he wouldn't dream of baptising an RC, Anglican or Lutheran who converted but he'd not hesitate in baptising (or 're-baptising') someone from a non-denominational Protestant background as he felt they were all over the shop theologically and you couldn't guarantee an adequate Trinitarian understanding from those quarters ...

Whether this was simply his opinion or an indication of a particular line in his jurisdiction, I don't know.

We did have a Shipmate who was Orthodox - but who has now lapsed as far as I can gather - who was baptised about three times or so - as an RC, as something else, I forget which, and finally as Orthodox. He was involved with the Russians. I don't know whether they were ROCOR at the stage he was baptised the third time ... I suspect so ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Stoic29
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quote:
Originally posted by Young fogey:
but then again we don't recognize Anglican orders (us: Anglicans are Christians but a church with Reformed theology about the Eucharist can't pass down holy orders;

Why can't Anglicans pass down holy orders? Is the official stance of the RC that there are no Anglican orders?

Why do the Orthodox have holy orders but Anglicans don't? In Rome's view, both churches broke communion with Rome.

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Gamaliel
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I think Rome's official view is that Anglican orders are 'null and void' but the Orthodox ones are simply impaired in some way.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Forthview
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Rome's point of view is that the time of the foundation of a Church of England independent of Catholicism only certain ,but not all, outward forms were kept,but that there was no intention to ordain bishops,priests or deacons in the Catholic understanding of ordination.

From this it follows,from the Catholic point of view,that Apostolic succession has,in the Catholic understanding of the term,not been passed on.

From that follows on the lack of priestly ordination,in the Catholic understanding, as well as the lack of episcopal confirmation,in the Catholic sense and the necessity to celebrate these sacraments when someone joins,as it were, the 'official'Catholic church.

It doesn't mean that God is not active in the Anglican church,nor does it mean that the clergy of the Anglican church do not celebrate valid sacraments for their parishioners BUT they do not celebrate sacraments which are accepted as Catholic,in the understanding of those who are linked in full communion with the See of Rome.

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Young fogey
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quote:
Originally posted by Stoic29:
Why do the Orthodox have holy orders but Anglicans don't? In Rome's view, both churches broke communion with Rome.

Because the Orthodox are still Catholic about the Eucharist; classical Anglicans were Reformed about it.

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Young fogey
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Our criteria for valid orders are in a sense our branch theory, but it's rather like the real Anglican branch theory, not the commonly assumed one of co-equal branches: a family of apostolic churches but only one branch is the true church (which classical Anglicanism at least implies).

The criteria are credal orthodoxy so basic that it includes the Nestorians, an unbroken claim to apostolic succession (them what got it don't pull out charts to try to prove their "lines"), and unbroken true teaching about the Eucharist (it's Christ's actual sacrifice made present and the elements completely change). Reformed theology falls short on the last one, so the Pope said no to Anglican orders, after centuries of caution treating them as invalid.

God created valid orders but he's not limited to them, which is why we don't dare say an Anglican priest of either sex's ministry is graceless. Nice Orthodox say the same of Catholics.

We see the Orthodox as estranged Catholics, not Protestants like the Anglicans; as they really are, they see us as part of undifferentiated darkness as much in need of baptism as non-Christians.

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Gamaliel
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Except, of course, most Orthodox don't rebaptise Catholics ...

But yes, some do - and even those that don't tend to be pretty suspicious.

But then, I knock around with the folk from The Fellowship of St Alban and St Sergius where despite obvious elephants in the room, Orthodox, Anglicans and RCs do tend to meet and discuss things very amicably.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Young fogey
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Except, of course, most Orthodox don't rebaptise Catholics ...

But yes, some do - and even those that don't tend to be pretty suspicious.

But then, I knock around with the folk from The Fellowship of St Alban and St Sergius where despite obvious elephants in the room, Orthodox, Anglicans and RCs do tend to meet and discuss things very amicably.

But much like with Mormons and polygamy, in theory they can.

C.S. Lewis once wrote that people at the hearts and centers of their churches are closer to God and thus to each other than the extremist fringes of those churches. Are pleasant ecumenical confabs "centrist" or outliers? Catholics and Anglicans have been jawing for 40 years; what of it?

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by Young fogey:
Catholics and Anglicans have been jawing for 40 years; what of it?

Well, we've not been burning each other at the stake for a while. So there's that.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Young fogey:
We see the Orthodox as estranged Catholics,

Estranged, imitation Catholics.

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Gamaliel
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Well, a lot of credo-baptist Protestants would baptise - or rebaptise - Catholics ...

So it ain't just an Orthodox thing, of course.

That said, some Orthodox I've encountered online (rather than in real life) can be as virulently anti-RC as any tub-thumping Protestant fundamentalist I've come across.

I was once interested to hear a discussion between Metropolitan Kallistos Ware and a bevy of RC priests about divorce and remarriage. It was cordial but there were no holds-barred on either side. I was impressed by the robustness of the exchange. Anglicans tend to skirt around such issues.

As with everything else, the mileage varies. I've known cradle Orthodox Greeks who've rolled their eyes at their own Church's attitude towards Canterbury and Rome ...

It takes two sides to Schism and two sides to heal the divisions.

In some ways, I can see signs of softening but I don't see either side backing down on what they see as their non-negotiables soon ...

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Forthview
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In some ways those at the extremities of religious communities are closer to one another.
In politics there is little difference between extreme right and extreme left - in the sense that both of them have established views which very little will shift - they are right and any one who varies from their point of view is wrong.

It is the same wioth religious viewpoints.Fortunately,at least in mainstream religious communities or denominations ,there are many less committed who stop the extremists from going over the edge.

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Stetson
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quote:
That said, some Orthodox I've encountered online (rather than in real life) can be as virulently anti-RC as any tub-thumping Protestant fundamentalist I've come across.

I remember Pope John Paul II visiting some Orthodox-heavy country some time late in his papacy, and militant Orthodox activists staged a protest against him.

What was odd(from a westerners' perspective) was that some of these protestors were reverentially holding up pictures of Marian iconography. Such imagery being not something usually seen in an ANTI-Catholic demonstrations, to say the least.

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
That said, some Orthodox I've encountered online (rather than in real life) can be as virulently anti-RC as any tub-thumping Protestant fundamentalist I've come across.

I remember Pope John Paul II visiting some Orthodox-heavy country some time late in his papacy, and militant Orthodox activists staged a protest against him.

What was odd(from a westerners' perspective) was that some of these protestors were reverentially holding up pictures of Marian iconography. Such imagery being not something usually seen in an ANTI-Catholic demonstrations, to say the least.

Well, not a at Protestant anti-Catholic demonstration, perhaps. You're kind of saying it was strange to you that the Orthodox weren't acting like Protestants.

[ 21. January 2017, 16:51: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
That said, some Orthodox I've encountered online (rather than in real life) can be as virulently anti-RC as any tub-thumping Protestant fundamentalist I've come across.

I remember Pope John Paul II visiting some Orthodox-heavy country some time late in his papacy, and militant Orthodox activists staged a protest against him.

What was odd(from a westerners' perspective) was that some of these protestors were reverentially holding up pictures of Marian iconography. Such imagery being not something usually seen in an ANTI-Catholic demonstrations, to say the least.

Well, not a at Protestant anti-Catholic demonstration, perhaps. You're kind of saying it was strange to you that the Orthodox weren't acting like Protestants.
Well, that's why I said "from a westerners' perspective". Prior to that point, I think the only religious anti-Catholic activism I had ever seen, in the media or in-person, was by Protestants. I'd imagine my experience would be similar to most people living in jurisdictions with lots of Protestants but few Orthodox.

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Gamaliel
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Sure, but some of the Orthodox anti-RC rants can sound very much like the late Rev Ian Paisley in full flight ... only with Eastern European accents rather than No'r'n Irish ones.

'Ulster says, "No!"'

'Moscow says, "Nyet!"'

'Athens says, "Oxhi"'

...

It's not uncommon to hear terms like 'Anti-Christ' and so on, so yes, the Orthodox can behave like Protestants ...

[Biased] [Razz]

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's not uncommon to hear terms like 'Anti-Christ' and so on, so yes, the Orthodox can behave like Protestants ...

Because Catholics don't behave like this? Yes it's embarrassing to more level-headed members of the group(s) in question, but it's hardly the preserve of non-Catholics.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's not uncommon to hear terms like 'Anti-Christ' and so on, so yes, the Orthodox can behave like Protestants ...

Because Catholics don't behave like this? Yes it's embarrassing to more level-headed members of the group(s) in question, but it's hardly the preserve of non-Catholics.
Well, I think what we're talking about is the prevalence and style of ANTI-CATHOLICSM in different denominations. Obviously, there is no anti-Catholicism in Catholicism.

There is plenty religious bigotry in Catholicism, to be sure. One thing I will observe, though, is that Catholics seem less obsessed than Protestants with pointing to this or that rival faith group as "Antichrist", or some manifestation on that theme. More just that everybody else besides Catholics(regardless of the denomination) are in error and in danger of losing their eternal soul.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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mousethief

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I've gotten plenty of stick from Catholics on this ship and indeed on this thread. In their anti-Orthodoxy. It cuts all ways.

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ThunderBunk

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's not uncommon to hear terms like 'Anti-Christ' and so on, so yes, the Orthodox can behave like Protestants ...

Because Catholics don't behave like this? Yes it's embarrassing to more level-headed members of the group(s) in question, but it's hardly the preserve of non-Catholics.
The Roman Catholic equivalent, to my mind, is the term the Catholic faith. There is no such thing: it's the roman catholic version of the Christian faith.

They are part of the body of Christ with the rest of us. Rome has no monopoly on the truth. This is unavoidably true.

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I've gotten plenty of stick from Catholics on this ship and indeed on this thread. In their anti-Orthodoxy. It cuts all ways.

Oh, I don't doubt it. Though the Ship is not neccessarily the most accurate representation of a particular faith's adherents, since the people here tend to know more about what they believe, and have specific opinions about the faiths that are outside their own.

In my experience, the Catholic Church tends to have a "pride of place" in the "demonology" of militant Protestants, and there really isn't an equivalent church in the Catholic demonology. I'm hard pressed to think of a Catholic writer who has distinguished himself in attacking a particular Protestant faith, in the same way that numerous Protestants have distinguised themselves in attacking the RCC.

I once read a lecture by a theologian, non-Catholic, who argued that Catholics tend to be less panicked about "flashy heresies" than Protestants are, eg. Catholic publishers don't churn out book after book scrutinizing toys and comic-books for evidence of demonic influence. In my experience, he was pretty much correct about that.

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's not uncommon to hear terms like 'Anti-Christ' and so on, so yes, the Orthodox can behave like Protestants ...

Because Catholics don't behave like this? Yes it's embarrassing to more level-headed members of the group(s) in question, but it's hardly the preserve of non-Catholics.
The Roman Catholic equivalent, to my mind, is the term the Catholic faith. There is no such thing: it's the roman catholic version of the Christian faith.

They are part of the body of Christ with the rest of us. Rome has no monopoly on the truth. This is unavoidably true.

Right. I think Catholic bigotry is a bit blunter in its application(which is NOT the same thing as saying it's more benign). They simply draw a line between "Catholics" and "Everybody Else", without going into too much detail about why each and every sect in the latter category is in error. Well, apart from papal encyclicals, which are rarely read by laymen.

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Forthview
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Remember ,Thunderbunk ,that there are Greek Catholics,Maronite Catholics,Syriac Catholics,Syro-Malabar Catholics and others as well as Roman Catholics who all claim the name of Catholic, and who recognise the primacy of the Roman See.

The Catholics do not claim to have a monopoly of Truth but they do claim to have the fullness of Truth.

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Young fogey
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Good catch, Mousethief.

The Orthodox are estranged Catholics but...

...one wag has written that the notion of "the Orthodox Church" as a coherent entity comparable to the Catholic Church was invented by Russian émigré priests in a Parisian café in the '20s; the intelligentsia who became the OCA's few intelligentsia (Schmemann and Meyendorff).

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Stoic29
Apprentice
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quote:
Originally posted by Young fogey:
The criteria are credal orthodoxy so basic that it includes the Nestorians, an unbroken claim to apostolic succession (them what got it don't pull out charts to try to prove their "lines"), and unbroken true teaching about the Eucharist (it's Christ's actual sacrifice made present and the elements completely change). Reformed theology falls short on the last one, so the Pope said no to Anglican orders, after centuries of caution treating them as invalid.

God created valid orders but he's not limited to them, which is why we don't dare say an Anglican priest of either sex's ministry is graceless. Nice Orthodox say the same of Catholics.

I was under the assumption that when Rome said "null and void" it meant that the sacraments in the Anglican communion are "without Grace".

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Gamaliel
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I hate to intrude on someone else's spat - but that's never stopped me before ... [Snigger]

So, Young Fogey, how do you account for 'unorthodox' doctrines such as Papal Infallibility, the Assumption of the Virgin (as opposed to the Dormition) and the Immaculate Conception of Mary being adopted by the apparently 'Orthodox' Roman Catholic Church?

[Biased] [Razz]

Or are these 'Orthodox' and worthy of all acceptation?

And yes, I know the mileage varies within Eastern Orthodoxy (or, as the Orthodox would prefer, simply Orthodoxy) as to the extent that they regard these as outright heresies or permissible opinions ...

I've seen some Orthodox online who aren't too far from the RC stance on some of these things - other than Papal Infallibility of course.

Although before Mousethief or any other Orthodoxen protest, I am well aware that from an official Orthodox perspective all the 'extra' Marian bits and bobs are well wide of the mark ...

But then, from an Orthodox perspective, as a Protestant I'm simply the flip-side of the same bad Papalist penny ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Young fogey:
Good catch, Mousethief.

The Orthodox are estranged Catholics but...

...one wag has written that the notion of "the Orthodox Church" as a coherent entity comparable to the Catholic Church was invented by Russian émigré priests in a Parisian café in the '20s; the intelligentsia who became the OCA's few intelligentsia (Schmemann and Meyendorff).

This because the pope of Rome was a single patriarch who split from all of the rest. So the so-called Roman Catholic Church is one patriarchate, and the rest of the Church left behind consists of many, so there is less lockstep -- excuse me, less ecclesial "unity."

What is sneeringly called Orthodox disunity is what the church always was until the Pope declared himself universal ruler of all, and attempted for enforce his false unity on his brother patriarchs. The ultimate result of which was the schism of 1054.

[ 23. January 2017, 12:37: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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