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Source: (consider it) Thread: Women's marches and other marches
Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

In a democracy that's what the vote is for;
In a democracy there is a winner and a loser.

That only makes sense if democracy is just casting a vote every few years. Which, of course, is bullshit.

Added to which any candidate, including the "winner" stands on a raft of policies and views, and gains votes from people who are voting for a wide range of reasons. It is unlikely that any one position actually had the support of the majority of the electorate (indeed many may have been unpopular even with those who voted for that candidate). It is a fool who believes that just because a candidate "wins" an election that therefore s/he has the support of the majority of the population for everything in that raft of policies. Even assuming they were elected by the majority of the electorate.

The more important part of democracy is what people do between elections. Which is almost always more focussed on single issues than an election. That is when we get to write to our representatives about issues, when we sign petitions, when we march.

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mr cheesy
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Whataboutism on wikipedia

It is also a common tactic when discussing human rights abuses in the occupied Palestinian Territories. A report talks about house demolitions, children in prison etc and someone pops up (in comments below newspaper articles, even often on live tv debates) saying "ah, but whatabout..." followed by "the war in Syria" or "Guantanamo" or something else.

It's a classic deflection.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The huge truth is this: not everyone agrees with the protestors.
Not all the women agree with them.
Not all the minority groups agree with them.
Not all the churches agree with the marchers on the pro-choice stance they take - especially the Roman Catholic and Evangelical churches.

An even huger truth is this:
  • Everybody already knew this.
  • It's irrelevant.


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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by tessaB:
Totally agree Nicolemr. Part of the point of the marches was the idea that if there is no challenge to the misogynist 'locker room' attitudes then they become normalised. Do we want to have a society where it is normal for men to talk in this way, because making it acceptable thins the barrier between talk and action.

Did I miss the marches in 1963 and 1998 when women rose up in their thousands to protest against Kennedy's adulterous activities and Clinton's fumblings in the Oval Office?
Since neither JFK nor Bill advocated criminal sexual assault, so you are really comparing apples and oranges. This is not about someone "doing the nasty with the wrong person", this is about assault. Sure, if I were Jackie or Hillary, the bum would be out on the street corner and publicity be damned. But that's my choice (one I made in very similar circumstances). But I didn't expect anyone to march to protest my ex's adultery. But elevating and celebrating sexual assault is a whole 'nother matter.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What struck me was how those on the right of the US political spectrum are highlighting that the Women's Marches are marginal in some way, asserting that Pro-Life* women are barred from participating and so on ...

I feel like that's a fair point. It shows "diversity" has hard ideological limits.
Pro-life* women are free to march and free to not have an abortion. What more do they want? Yeesh.

Of course there are limits. Why would the marchers accommodate those who want to trample on the rights of other members of the group? You might as well ask why Black Lives Matter didn't invite the KKK to protest with them.

*Offer expires at birth

Clarification: pro-lifers WERE allowed to march, they just wouldn't allow an organization of pro-life Democrats to advertise as one of the official sponsors of the march.

As a pro-life democrat I was obviously disappointed in the decision. To me both my pro-life and my Democratic values come from the same place: the desire to advocate for the vulnerable and marginalized. For me, the other positions of the DNC are so entirely framed in a consistent pro-life ethic-- anti-death penalty, anti mass incarceration, pro BLM and similar movements, pro GLBT and gay marriage, pro universal health care, pro food stamps and other anti-poverty measures, pro education-- it seems to me a bizarre historical anomaly that they are not pro-life. GOP policies have been proven to increase abortions, and their stance toward anyone other than a fetus is so obviously anything but pro-life-- such utter disregard for human life-- the way the political divide has fallen seems completely bizarrely misaligned.

But, as a passionately pro-life Democrat, I can totally get why pro-choice feminists would have reason to distrust pro-lifers, even those who come disguised as feminist Democrats. We (pro-lifers) have chosen to approach our cause with militancy-- with what Greg Boyd calls "power over" rather than "power under". Instead of seeking to empower women and serve them, to give them the resources they need (financial, educational, legal, etc) to be able to confidently bear a child & raise a child, we have instead sought "power over"-- to impose our agenda through legal compulsion and thru not-always-subtle slut-shaming. We have chosen the route of violence and humiliation. Having chosen that, we should not be surprised if those who we wish to come along side look at us with suspicion.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Jemima the 9th
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I marched in London, with my 2 daughters who are 13 & 11.

Why? Lots of reasons. Big reasons. Great reasons. There's no trouble with the reasons, believe me.

1. Solidarity with women in the US who are horrified by the election of Trump & worry about the impact it may have on them.
2. Expressing concern about the tone of debate - what we saw in the US election, but also here pre-Brexit. The ramping up of anti-immigration, anti-woman, bordering-on-racist rhetoric. I'm not interested in unseating a democratically elected govt or overturning a referendum result, but I can raise concerns about it.
3. What happens in the US often comes this way - in terms of mood music rather than actual policy. I want access to a TOP if I need one. I want the same for my daughters. I want them to have good access to contraception when the time is right. I want them to have good SRE, with compulsory elements on consent (damn consent, let's hold out for enthusiasm). I don't want them to fear sexual assault every time they go for a run (like I do). I don't want them to feel there are jobs they can't do because they're girls. I want my son to be raised in a society that believes in equality.
4. Talking of mood music, and stealing a line from one of my favourite telly programmes (The Last Leg) Fuck it. It's not ok that the most powerful man on the planet (ok, perhaps second behind Putin these days), boasts about sexual assault.
5. It's not just about the march. The people (men & women) who march are the people who write letters, start campaigns, and run for office. This is a bit of encouragement on the way, it's not a replacement for any of those things.
6. Back to mood music - we changed the conversation a little tiny bit. The top story on the BBC news on Saturday night was the protests, not Trump's meeting with the CIA.

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la vie en rouge
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Sometimes I don’t think actually changing things in the short term is the point as such. I know that sounds a bit odd to say, but: back in the day I and a million other people turned up in the streets of London and spent five hours shuffling to Hyde Park in the freezing wind to protest the Iraq war. Personally I went in the full knowledge that it was going to change nothing. Tony Blair had made his mind up and I knew he was going to fight his war come what may. The point of my being there was to register my dissent. I wanted to make it clear that he was going to war against my wishes so that the right people could be held to account when it all went predictably belly up later. Tony, I told you that war was a bad idea [Disappointed] .

In the same way, IMO marching against Trump is worth it purely as a way of registering one’s dissent apart from anything else. The reason his administration is getting so upset about the inauguration numbers is because they want to look like they have legitimacy. Millions of people protesting against them makes it much harder to call what they do the will of the people.

(Donald has the best protests, he has really amazing protests. Donald’s protests are yuge. [Snigger] )

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Penny S
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I've just heard a Trump supporter on LBC claim, firstly that marchers who were interviewed couldn't explain what they were marching for (as if these were not edited for any reason). And secondly, and more worryingly, that a) Madonna was to be charged and imprisoned for what she said about burning the White House, and b) the march organisers would also be arrested, charged and/or fined and imprisoned for doing so.

These claims did not show up on a search on Duck duckgo, and I have no intention of going to Breitbart or similar. I suppose this guy's facts were the sort of facts we now have a description of from Conway, from somewhere down the other trouserleg of the universe, but they are not ideas that should be wandering around, are they?

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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LBC?
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Brenda Clough
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I can articulate the reason perfectly. We marched, to say it is not OK. We are not going to let pussy grabbing, sexual assault and mocking of veterans, handicapped people, trans-sexuals, and essentially everyone who is not a white male, become standard operating procedure. Be an asshole if you want. But know that it is not normal, not right.

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Brenda Clough
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Drat, too late to go in and add a link. This article says it perfectly. The money quote: "But this was a protest of the sensible-shoe’d majority — unglamorous marchers who carefully packed their snacks in a plastic see-through backpack and threw it on over a Barbour jacket, seeking to preserve norms, rather than challenge them."

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Penny S
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
LBC?

Sorry. I considered putting an explanation, but thought it would confuse things - should have asterisked it.

It is a phone-in station with presenters of a variety of standpoints, based in London, but spread from there across the country. It often has calls from taxi drivers of right wing views. Not all the presenters share their opinions. I only listen to those who don't. (Don't want to risk throwing the radio out when Farage is on.)

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Doc Tor
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# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Sometimes I don’t think actually changing things in the short term is the point as such. I know that sounds a bit odd to say, but: back in the day I and a million other people turned up in the streets of London and spent five hours shuffling to Hyde Park in the freezing wind to protest the Iraq war. Personally I went in the full knowledge that it was going to change nothing. Tony Blair had made his mind up and I knew he was going to fight his war come what may. The point of my being there was to register my dissent. I wanted to make it clear that he was going to war against my wishes so that the right people could be held to account when it all went predictably belly up later. Tony, I told you that war was a bad idea [Disappointed] .

And if you, me, and the million other people had marched on parliament, dragged Blair to the dispatch box and made him recant, there'd be a few million people in the Middle East who'd still be alive today.

We have to face it: we fucked up. We had the opportunity, and we fucked it up.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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This had happened before Doc Tor. I recall from my youth the wordwide protests of the Viet Nam war, and the fear with the repeated wars involving Israel. The difference probably is that the gov'ts and politcos weren't controlling and censoring the media like this time. The public consensus took a decade to build. Build it? yes it will. Despair is okay, so long it doesn't become apathy.
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quetzalcoatl
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You always get the pessimists, the skeptics, and well, the right wing, who say that there's no point in marches and demonstrations. The first two are a form of apathy, the third is just right wing, and don't like opposition. You also usually get the attempt to tarnish everyone with violence, yes, I've seen that on this thread, and in the media. A few anarchists smashed shop windows, therefore everyone is culpable.

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no path

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Enoch
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Marches don't directly achieve much. All too easily, they become an illusion - a delusion even - 'we're marching; we really feel'. It would have been better if it had done, but 'Not in my name' didn't persuade the government not to invade Iraq.

Governments can, and habitually do, ignore protests, marches, the lot. They assume they know best. To achieve anything, one has to get one's hands on some of the levers of real power - and that involves hard work, years of attending dreary meetings and compromise.

Nevertheless, it's better that people march than they don't, because at least if lots of people do, it lets governments know that large elements in the population don't support them. That's particularly important if it's visible that for once, a lot of the the people who are marching aren't the usual suspects.

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
And if you, me, and the million other people had marched on parliament, dragged Blair to the dispatch box and made him recant, there'd be a few million people in the Middle East who'd still be alive today.

We have to face it: we fucked up. We had the opportunity, and we fucked it up.

Doc Tor, if you believe, along with the late and by most civilised people, unlamented, Chairman Mao, that power does - and should- come from the barrel of a gun, then go on saying that if you wish. I will oppose you as long as I am able.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Enoch
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Marches don't directly achieve much. All too easily, they become an illusion - a delusion even - 'we're marching; we really feel'. It would have been better if it had done, but 'Not in my name' didn't persuade the government not to invade Iraq.

Governments can, and habitually do, ignore protests, marches, the lot. They assume they know best. To achieve anything, one has to get one's hands on some of the levers of real power - and that involves hard work, years of attending dreary meetings and compromise.

Nevertheless, it's better that people march than they don't, because at least if lots of people do, it lets governments know that large elements in the population don't support them. That's particularly important if it's visible that for once, a lot of the the people who are marching aren't the usual suspects.

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
And if you, me, and the million other people had marched on parliament, dragged Blair to the dispatch box and made him recant, there'd be a few million people in the Middle East who'd still be alive today.

We have to face it: we fucked up. We had the opportunity, and we fucked it up.

Doc Tor, if you believe, along with the late and by most civilised people, unlamented, Chairman Mao, that power does - and should- come from the barrel of a gun, then go on saying that if you wish. I will oppose you as long as I am able.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Enoch
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# 14322

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Sorry. The boards seem to be playing up this afternoon. My last post has appeared twice. Please could an administrator remove one of them.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Enoch
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Sorry. The Boards seem to be playing up this afternoon. My last post appeared twice. Please could an administrator remove one of them. Thank you.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Doc Tor, if you believe, along with the late and by most civilised people, unlamented, Chairman Mao, that power does - and should- come from the barrel of a gun, then go on saying that if you wish. I will oppose you as long as I am able.

And you, like me, were simply too civilised to save millions of people from dying when we had the chance.

I'm sure we can all pat ourselves on the back and congratulate each other that we're not like that nasty Mao.

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Forward the New Republic

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Hilda of Whitby
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Pro-lifers do not lack visibility in DC.

I lived in DC for decades, and there is a very large pro-life march every January in Washington DC, close to the date of the Roe vs. Wade Supreme Court decision. 2017's is on Jan 27; this year's could be bigger than most.

Any pro-life woman or man who felt unwelcome for any reason at the Million Women March has their very own pro-life march on Washington, every year.

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quetzalcoatl
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I think marches and so on achieve a variety of things, from zero to a lot. A recent example, demonstrations in Poland against anti-abortion laws being proposed, are claimed to be making the government think again.

A stronger example: in Russian in 1905, massive demonstrations and strikes led to the announcement of a state duma. However, this movement went beyond marches, e.g. peasants were seizing land, there were some mutinies among the military, and so on.

But it's claimed that the Tsar was shocked by this, but also cracked down, with thousands executed.

But size does matter. If five million come on to the streets, many governments would feel nervous, and would either propitiate or repress. See Egypt in recent years.

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no path

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Al Eluia

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We had a good contingent from our church who went to the Seattle march--some together and some separately with friends or other groups. On Sunday three women wore their pink hats to church. Another wore a Statue of Liberty "hat" she'd made out of poster board!

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quetzalcoatl
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And you can bet your sweet bippy that Trump was aware of the women's marches, well aware. Hey, dig the 60s slang, so k-k-k-k-ool.

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no path

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Governments can, and habitually do, ignore protests, marches, the lot. They assume they know best. To achieve anything, one has to get one's hands on some of the levers of real power - and that involves hard work, years of attending dreary meetings and compromise.

And, of course, many people on those marches have already done that hard work. In the US, the last 8 years have seen the fruits of much of that hard work - marriage equality, some more movement towards racial equality, further steps towards equal pay for men and women, an improvement in health care provision for the poor, a recognition of the impact of human activity on the global climate to name a few. There will be hard work ahead to try and stop the new administration from reversing those gains, let alone continuing to make advances. I can't imagine that the people who are doing that hard work won't be encouraged by the size of the demonstrations they have seen in the last few days. And, probably some of those who have marched will find the local groups where they can get stuck in with the hard work over the next four years and beyond.

Mass protests are the very visible face of the ongoing hard work of grass-roots groups trying to influence government policy. They rarely happen spontaneously, they happen because there is a ground swell of opinion that isn't being heard by governments. That groundswell of opinion is fuelled in a large part by hard working activists, the people who have for decades worked hard to make it unacceptable for women to be treated as eye-candy and to gratify the urges of powerful men, those who have laboured (and, in many cases died) to enshrine equality for different races in law even if there's work to be done to change hearts, those who have through tireless effort achieved marriage equality.

Mass protests are the tip of the iceberg of public opinion. Governments may feel that they can ignore them, but it's a very foolish government that would steam ahead at full speed through the treacherous waters the protestors represent. They may get away with it for a while, but sooner or later they're going to find themselves clinging to the lifeboats.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Brenda Clough
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This past March was especially important, because the TF is insisting that he has a Yuge mandate, and that everybody loves him and supports him in every particular. It is important that he see, in terms that he can understand, how untrue that is. It won't make any difference in how he acts, I don't think, because truth and fact are kind of alien concepts over there. But it is possible, being a complete weathervane, that he will bow to the popular will. If he were a more principled man (Obama) or even a creature of his party (Bush) then he might stand buff. But faced with unpopularity? This president?

[ 23. January 2017, 20:36: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

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Brenda Clough
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I will just add an excellent article that explains it more cogently than I can.

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Palimpsest
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To say a Women's march against Trump isn't a woman's march because it doesn't include all women is stupid. It doesn't include women who are Trump supporters, so by your twisted logic, they'd have to ditch the point of the march being anti-Trump so that female Trump supporters aren't excluded. The march was organized by women to protest Trumps election. It excludes Trump supporters which includes all the pro-life evangelicals who voted for him to get anti-abortion supreme court judges.

Some rioters took advantage of the crowds to damage a MacDonalds, that doesn't make the marchers responsible.

Mudfrog, for a person who claims they didn't want to speak out against the Women's March, you've brought no end of spurious complaint that it's being done all wrong. The people on Fox News feel left out. Well how sad for them and you.

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Martin60
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Doc & Alan

Doc: We didn't fuck up. Turning this least worst system from representative to participative democracy - lawless mob rule - would not have been a good thing or led to good things. Not like in Bucharest. Blair had already been knowingly, unhingingly instrumental in Saddam killing a million of his own people over the ten year siege prior to invasion. Nobody else batted an eyelid. No million of us.

Alan: The hard work for minorities wasn't for the dispossessed white working and increasingly middle class. It was more icing on a shrinking cake. Trump is creating the illusion of more cake already.

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Love wins

Posts: 16633 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
And you, like me, were simply too civilised to save millions of people from dying when we had the chance.

You really think you could have achieved that with a bit of violent unrest? As the saying goes, apt in this setting, you and whose army?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
And you, like me, were simply too civilised to save millions of people from dying when we had the chance.

You really think you could have achieved that with a bit of violent unrest? As the saying goes, apt in this setting, you and whose army?
The million-strong one that took to the streets of a single city?

I'll grant you (and Martin) that this is more a fantasy than reality. But still. We marched peacefully. Absolutely nothing changed. Maybe we should acknowledge that our tactics were wrong, or that we just didn't care enough about other people, or that we were just virtue signalling.

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Forward the New Republic

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mdijon
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Or that we did what we could with what we had. There's no rule of the cosmos that owes us what we want if we just try hard enough. Even though in practice one often has to live like that to overcome the despair and get anything done.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Soror Magna
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Trump has kicked off his Republic of Gilead agenda by returning to the so-called "Mexico City rule". It's sooooo typical of Trump: it harms vulnerable girls and women who can't fight back. We can now add Coat-Hanger President to his nicknames. And although it's none of my fucking business, I do wonder how many abortions his promiscuous lifestyle produced.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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Martin60
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Hey Doc, don't beat yourself up. You did all that could be done and with hindsight you shamed me. It WAS done in my name.

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Love wins

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Republic of Gilead

Finally understood the reference. Is there anything relevant to be learned from the book in question?

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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You mean The Handmaid's Tale? One of the great dystopian novels of our time, a worthy successor to 1984 and Heinlein's If This Goes On. Of particular reference to SoF denizens, because Atwood drew upon all the nuttier theology about the sexes you can dig out of the Old Testament. It has been made into a couple movies and an opera, and the latest iteration, coming to cable TV in the spring, stars Elizabeth Moss, an award winning actress best known for Mad Men.
Here is the book review I wrote of the book, which appeared in late October of last year. I reviewed it on that date because it is an important work, now more than ever. Over where I come from, we are telling each other: We've all read the novels. We write SF. We can overthrow dystopian regimes.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Al Eluia

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# 864

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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Trump has kicked off his Republic of Gilead agenda by returning to the so-called "Mexico City rule". It's sooooo typical of Trump: it harms vulnerable girls and women who can't fight back. We can now add Coat-Hanger President to his nicknames. And although it's none of my fucking business, I do wonder how many abortions his promiscuous lifestyle produced.

I loved the picture of him signing the order surrounding entirely by conservative white men.

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Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Trump has kicked off his Republic of Gilead agenda by returning to the so-called "Mexico City rule". It's sooooo typical of Trump: it harms vulnerable girls and women who can't fight back. We can now add Coat-Hanger President to his nicknames. And although it's none of my fucking business, I do wonder how many abortions his promiscuous lifestyle produced.

I loved the picture of him signing the order surrounding entirely by conservative white men.
Don't worry, he has promoted three women of colour to high office. I'm sure he'll be signing stuff from them soon.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Mudfrog
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# 8116

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quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Trump has kicked off his Republic of Gilead agenda by returning to the so-called "Mexico City rule". It's sooooo typical of Trump: it harms vulnerable girls and women who can't fight back. We can now add Coat-Hanger President to his nicknames. And although it's none of my fucking business, I do wonder how many abortions his promiscuous lifestyle produced.

I loved the picture of him signing the order surrounding entirely by conservative white men.
Actually....
THIS

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Actually....
THIS

Actually, if you read the byline on the picture, it's from a different meeting - one, presumably, which included at least one woman because she's a union leader and there on her own merit.

So, THAT.

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Forward the New Republic

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Actually....
THIS

Actually, if you read the byline on the picture, it's from a different meeting - one, presumably, which included at least one woman because she's a union leader and there on her own merit.

So, THAT.

Yes, I'm fully aware of that - it's a picture from yesterday.

The 'THIS' comment was referencing my comment that I was sure he'll sign something from a woman soon, and not just white conservative men. I have no idea who the lady in the picture is but the fact is that yesterday she stood front and centre (almost) next to the President in the Oval office - a woman, and 'a woman of colour' as well (as Americans are wont to say).

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Doc Tor
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But that's not what the complaint is. It's about signing something that'll affect many women worldwide, while surrounded only by men.

That charge stands, absolutely, and you're coming over as obfuscating that fact.

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Forward the New Republic

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Trump has kicked off his Republic of Gilead agenda by returning to the so-called "Mexico City rule". It's sooooo typical of Trump:

Well, yes. But it's also something every recent Republican has done on entering office, and every recent Democrat has rescinded. This isn't uniquely Trumpian. Every Republican has to jump up and down about abortion, or lose the support of the "Christian Right".
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Jemima the 9th
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But that's not what the complaint is. It's about signing something that'll affect many women worldwide, while surrounded only by men.

That charge stands, absolutely, and you're coming over as obfuscating that fact.

Yep. And as the current meme has it "As long as you live you'll never see a photograph of 7 women signing legislation about what men can do with their reproductive organs". Maybe "as long as you live" is too depressing, but I'm certainly not holding my breath.

That's what the complaint here is about - it's the balance, or lack of it.

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Penny S
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The Guardian has a nice collection of placards. "IKEA has better cabinets", "Respect our existence or expect our resistance", "Super callous fragile racist sexist nazi POTUS".
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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But that's not what the complaint is. It's about signing something that'll affect many women worldwide, while surrounded only by men.

That charge stands, absolutely, and you're coming over as obfuscating that fact.

Yep. And as the current meme has it "As long as you live you'll never see a photograph of 7 women signing legislation about what men can do with their reproductive organs". Maybe "as long as you live" is too depressing, but I'm certainly not holding my breath.
But is that really what you want? Just a chance to see injustice inflicted in the other direction?

[ 24. January 2017, 20:32: Message edited by: Dave W. ]

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Jemima the 9th
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No! Of course not. That's not what I meant, I'm sorry it came over that way.

This isn't about 2 wrongs making a right, it's recognising the way the imbalance has so often been historically, and that having the occasional woman present legislation is not somehow making all of that better.

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SvitlanaV2
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It's good to see that freedom of speech is still valued, but the fact that so many people are angry suggests that democracy isn't working very well. If voting in a president leads to 1000s of angry people demonstrating against him straight away that means voting is rather pointless, because the will of the people hasn't been done.

These days it seems that voting only adds to the amount of division and unhappiness in the world.

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Mudfrog
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I'm sorry, (actually, I'm not, so I'm going to say it anyway) but as a married man with three adult sons, I feel that I have a right to have a joint say about what happens to my unborn child; and in any case, an unborn human being is not part of a woman's reproductive organs, s/he is a separate life relying upon the love and care of his/her mother to bring him/her to full potential.

I find the whole 'my body/my choice' thing cold, heartless, loveless, and in a sense, anti-men as well as anti-human and antiChrstian.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I'm sorry, (actually, I'm not, so I'm going to say it anyway) but as a married man with three adult sons, I feel that I have a right to have a joint say about what happens to my unborn child; and in any case, an unborn human being is not part of a woman's reproductive organs, s/he is a separate life relying upon the love and care of his/her mother to bring him/her to full potential.

I find the whole 'my body/my choice' thing cold, heartless, loveless, and in a sense, anti-men as well as anti-human and antiChrstian.

I've started a new thread, just for you.

New thread here!

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Forward the New Republic

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