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Source: (consider it) Thread: Thoughts on PM May's Speech
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
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Full text

Some quotes that stood out as I heard it on the way to work:
quote:
For more than two centuries, the very idea of America — drawn from history and given written form in a small hall not far from here — has lit up the world.

And it is my honour and privilege to do so at this time, as dawn breaks on a new era of American renewal.

And a newly emboldened, confident America is good for the world.

A future that sees us take back control of the things that matter to us — things like our national borders and immigration policy, and the way we decide and interpret our own laws – so that we are able to shape a better, more prosperous future for the working men and women of Britain.

Was it pure speaking to the audience [Republicans]? Is the word "renewal", as in "dawn breaks on a new era of American renewal", a strange one -- or is it just me? Are comments such as, "I defy any person to travel to this great country at any time and not to be inspired by its promise and its example." true, or a bit of exaggeration for the masses?
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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What do I think? This is what I think.

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Forward the New Republic

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
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Which one is wearing the high heels?

[Miss Amanda will get her wrap.]

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"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

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Golden Key
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Just now skimmed the full text. To my American mind, possible interpretations:

--The Special Relationship still stands.

--Don't pull out of the UN.

--It's not all about you bozos. We do a bunch of stuff, too, and don't you forget it!

--I studied history. [Biased]

--Our former colonies there clearly need firm guidance. We're stepping up.

--Be very careful about Russia. DUH!

--Lather, rinse, repeat.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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mr cheesy
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I think the thing to listen for is the "mood music" rather than the words that May is actually using.

The Trump White House couldn't be bothered to check the spelling of her name. May couldn't rule out a trade agreement which would include access for US corporations to the NHS.

These things are more important than the words she used in a speech, which was largely for a domestic audience albeit delivered to the Republicans.

The reality is quite stark, in my opinion.

On one side we have Trump who is talking about US first and talking about restricting competition from non-US brands inside the US market. It is hard to see that he's going to want a trade agreement with anything less than full and free trade for USAmerican corporations inside the UK (which has certain implications for various EU protections and regulations which currently apply in the UK) and at the same time is unlikely to want to welcome in British corporations to compete inside the USA on the same terms.

May, on the other hand, is obviously looking towards the USA as a major source of trade give that trade with the EU will almost inevitably be more difficult.

The nightmare scenario for the UK economy would be if Trump blusters his way to get a lopsided deal which May feels forced to accept.

And so with everything else as well. Defence, international relations, etc. May might be saying the right things about torture today, but is she going to say no to black sites in the UK when Trump dangles some trade carrot or threatens some kind of thaw in the "special relationship"?

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arse

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Jane R
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What do I think? Let me see...

[Projectile] [Mad] [brick wall]

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Callan
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I note that she was quite happy to talk to a bunch of Republicans about their shared values but has turned down the opportunity to address the Irish Dail.

Not, if I may say so, a good look.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I note that she was quite happy to talk to a bunch of Republicans about their shared values but has turned down the opportunity to address the Irish Dail.

Not, if I may say so, a good look.

Quite. At the moment she has one big job to do, that is to make Brexit work. She's onto a loser, but she should at least be giving it her attention. And, that means maintaining relations with other parts of the "family of nations within the EU" (to quote the part of the Conservative manifesto that said the Conservatives would be maintaining the UKs place in the EU). Of all of them, Ireland is probably the most important - because Brexit will have a massive impact on Ireland, more so than any other EU nation (excluding, of course, the UK).

Yes, a trade deal with the US would be nice. But, it's the icing on the cake after a workable Brexit is achieved. Making Brexit work cannot be allowed to be held hostage to the whim of Trump. Brexit needs to work irrespective of any trade deals with other nations. Cosying up to the Republicans and Trump, to recreate some mythical "special relationship" does nothing to make Brexit work, and for many of us "friend of Trump" is not the sort of title we'd want applied to our Prime Minister, much less the country as a whole - and, is unlikely to win many friends in Europe when our government gets down to serious negotiations.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
... for many of us "friend of Trump" is not the sort of title we'd want applied to our Prime Minister, much less the country as a whole ...

Hear, hear! [Overused]

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Adeodatus
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I couldn't possibly voice my thoughts on May's speech and visit in a polite forum like Purgatory. The fact that she was first in the queue to visit the Tangerine Fool is cause for shame enough, but when she pointedly refused to say the NHS would be left out of any trade deals, I got seriously scared.

All in all, I concur with Doc Tor's view above.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Adeodatus
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(By the way, I've just heard that members of the British Press Corps are currently locked out of the White House, because their dates of birth were submitted in British dd/mm/yyyy format, and White House Security can't comprehend!)

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Penny S
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I've just had to turn the TV off. Mrs May saying "As you renew your nation as we renew ours..."

What has she been reading, drinking, breathing? Trump is renewing your nation? This is renewal? Telling the media to shut up? Turning off the science? Condemning people to death by cutting health supplies?

I suppose you could describe as renewal what happens to a caterpillar eaten from inside by wasp larvae. Or ants taken over by fungi.

And I think of that not very good Dr Who story with the farting aliens disguised as politicians in No 10, unzipping themselves from the skins they have taken. What does Trump's hairpiece hide?

What is happening to us?

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Bishops Finger
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Has anybody noticed whether Missus May's nose has changed colour yet?

[Projectile]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Boogie

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Great galloping god almighty - she held his hand! [Disappointed]

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rolyn
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Better to hold both his hands given his reputation.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Brenda Clough
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Just bring a large, stout handbag. Hold it in front of you at -all- times.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Beenster
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He says he's coming to the UK later this year - that's one election promise he's backtracked on regrettably.
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Penny S
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The Queen invited him. I hope she gives him her son's Ladybird book. Should be about his level.

Publisher's page

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
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Oh dear. I've always been a great admirer of Her Majesty, but I was so hoping she'd refuse to receive him. I'll write it off to her advancing age.

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"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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I'm not sure Her Majesty would have had much choice. If her Prime Minister asks her to extend an invitation to the head of state of another country to visit the UK then she does as she is told, and burns her gloves after shaking hands.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda.B.Reckondwythe:
Oh dear. I've always been a great admirer of Her Majesty, but I was so hoping she'd refuse to receive him. I'll write it off to her advancing age.

This is nonsense! Alan is right that The Queen doesn't make these invitations herself. But every US President makes a visit to the UK during the presidency. As Mrs May got the first invitation to the White House, it's only fair that President Trump makes an early visit to the UK. It's just the way the world works.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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Brenda Clough
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I'm counting on you, UKians. The man understands only crowds. Show up in pussy hats and protest signs. Make him feel that pain. If you can make up some truly scurrilous chants so much the better. (In DC it was "He's orange! He's gross! He lost the popular vote!")

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Bishops Finger
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How about 'He's an awful git, and he looks like sh*t!'?

At least it rhymes.

I'll get me coat.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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molopata

The Ship's jack
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Has anybody noticed whether Missus May's nose has changed colour yet?
IJ

No change in colour but a distinct change in length. Again. This is what happens if you give the Donald's ego a massive orgasm. OTOH, by doing so, Wacky May might manage to moderate him on a number of issues and get him to tone it down a bit. There again, probably not.

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... The Respectable

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I'm not sure Her Majesty would have had much choice. If her Prime Minister asks her to extend an invitation to the head of state of another country to visit the UK then she does as she is told, and burns her gloves after shaking hands.

Pity she couldn't burn her prime minister instead. Her namesake would have.

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"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I'm not sure Her Majesty would have had much choice. If her Prime Minister asks her to extend an invitation to the head of state of another country to visit the UK then she does as she is told, and burns her gloves after shaking hands.

HM has always done as she was advised - including hosting the Ceausescus amongst others.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Penny S
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May didn't have to congratulate him on his stunning victory, did she? Makes me sick. (Mind you, by comparison with hers, not even the result of an election within her party, it may be stunning.)
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Penny S
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On second thoughts, it is possible to interpret "stunning" as "completely unpredictable", "incredible", and in a number of other ways implying that it would have been better unachieved.
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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by molopata:
This is what happens if you give the Donald's ego a massive orgasm. OTOH, by doing so, Wacky May might manage to moderate him on a number of issues and get him to tone it down a bit. There again, probably not.

H'mmm Britain's PM there to moderate the ambitions of an American president. Sounds awfully familiar. Think the can-carrying tainted Tony might be able to offer 'wet-behind-the-ears' Theresa some advice on that one.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Schroedinger's cat

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All of the fuss about Trump can distract from the bigger picture.

Trump will be there for 4 years (max, surely). He will cause pain and damage and hatred. He will be a disaster. But he will not be able to do half the stuff he wants to, and his successor will spend a lot of time undoing this. Longer term, there might be relief from this. Assuming that Trump doesn't actually start a major war with anyone.

Theresa is planning to take us out of the EU. That will take years to sort out, and will probably trash our economy in the meantime. She is trying to destroy the NHS, which will kill people and would take decades to rebuild.

So while Trump is dangerous, stupid and everything else people have said, I think May is more dangerous, long term. So the idea of May being a calming influence is seriously and dangerously mistaken.

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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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rolyn
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A lot of folk seem mightily confident that trump will be gone in 4 years, just as they were similarly confident he wasn't going to be elected in the first place. My money is on him being there for 8 years whether the rest of the world likes it or not.
Brexit is about altering trading conditions, can't see how this compares with America electing an outspoken and controversial maverick as it's supreme Commander in chief.

Besides which if Britain leaving the EU is going to be a total bloody disaster, as many seem equally convinced of, then T. May with her slender majority will be booted at the next Election. But with Corbyn beginning to sound distinctly more pro-brexit, (probably due to trumps victory), I don't see any of that happening either.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Boogie

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More like 12 years, when he changes the length of time presidents can be in office ...

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Jane R
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Miss Amanda:
quote:
Oh dear. I've always been a great admirer of Her Majesty, but I was so hoping she'd refuse to receive him.
As several other people have already pointed out she doesn't have much choice in the matter, whatever her private opinion of him may be. And she has always done her duty as head of state, even when it meant shaking hands with former members of the IRA.
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Brenda Clough
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Which is why it comes down on you, the GBP. HM can't tell him what she thinks. So you do it.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Bishops Finger
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Fair comment, and I'm sure we'll think of something....

[Snigger]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Penny S
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# 14768

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I can't find the full text of May's seech, but this chilled me. "May heaped praise upon Republicans for their election victories in November, saying it was an "honor" to address them as "dawn breaks on a new era of American renewal."

I can't believe she wants what he wants. But she said we were renewing, too.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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The "special relationship" sounded obsequious and like the UK is the USA's pet. Why all the pandering?

UK total trade is about 1/6 of Canada's or Mexico's with the USA. No shared border. We've discussed other countries joining NAFTA but the UK never has come up. Though USA may torpedo its NAFTA involvement. Which will be a pretty big deal for it seeing how much import and export it is jeopardizing. The UK is small potatoes in comparison. Maybe it's all posturing because of referendum politics took the place of parliamentary.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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Rejection of the petition calling on government not to invite Trump on a state visit because it will undo the good work Mrs May has done. As though undoing that would be a bad thing.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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Jane R
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So, Mrs May, you only want to make populist gestures if the populace agrees with you? Aaagh! [brick wall]
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Schroedinger's cat

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"The good work May has done". That is a short list. I am still trying to think how to start.

She has aligned herself with one of the most vile leaders in the world. Not in my name, in her own. In doing so, she has distanced herself from all good reasonable people.

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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
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Eirenist
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We must all hope, for Her Majesty's sake, that the President will have been house-trained in advance of his visit. On the available evidence, that doesn't seem to be the case at present.

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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'

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Marvin the Martian

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The best way to deal with someone as unstable and narcissistic as Trump may well be to "big him up" in public while working behind the scenes to reduce the damage he does.

The fact of the matter is that Trump is the President. None of us can change that now. There are a few people who can potentially do something to change how he governs, and they'll only be able to do that if he keeps agreeing to talk with them - it's clear that he will not even begin to consider anything said by anyone he sees as an enemy, and that he sees anyone who openly criticises him as such.

May could have utterly condemned Trump, and it would have resulted in the UK having to stand and watch without any influence on Trump's America. Or she could play the game, maintain a relationship between the two countries, and hope for a chance to use that relationship for good.

The sort of scorched-earth, all-condemning, total-refusal-to-engage approach so many of you seem to favour is great for feeling all morally superior, but it does fuck all in terms of real world effects.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Eutychus
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There's a lot of room between "utter condemnation" and capitulation embodied by an instant invitation to a state visit.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Callan
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# 525

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There's also a good case for 'make polite noises and watch and wait'. Granted we're stuck with him for the next four years but rolling out the red carpet, at this early juncture, could well be premature.

I think the problem is that whilst the country doesn't have a viable opposition May knows that the danger to her position comes from the headbanger right rather than the prospect of losing a General Election. So she's sucking up to Trump and hoping for a UK-US trade deal that will merely be awful (and therefore cheered to the rafters by the right wing press) than one that is so howlingly rancid that even the Labour Party might find the stones to vote against it.

Brexit means Trump. We've basically decided to turn our back on Europe and hope that we can play patacake with an authoritarian white nationalist. I really can't see this ending well.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
There's a lot of room between "utter condemnation" and capitulation embodied by an instant invitation to a state visit.

Exactly.

She could have waited. Unseemly haste, shell repent at leisure [Roll Eyes]

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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As Callan says, I think it smells of desperation. She must see a close partnership with the US as the UK's only hope.

Given that I had her pegged as cool-headed and a clear thinker (quite a track record as Home Secretary...), I would have thought she realises how futile it is to try and strike a deal with a con artist. In which case the desperation is verging on blind panic.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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No, folks. Do not jump onto the sinking ship here. Keep your distance from our vortex. Remember what we could not, that there is no entity, no human being, no business, that has ever associated with the PG in Chief and ever been happy afterwards.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Louise
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# 30

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:

Brexit means Trump. We've basically decided to turn our back on Europe and hope that we can play patacake with an authoritarian white nationalist. I really can't see this ending well.

Exactly. Trump doesn't give a fuck about his own country's constitution. He's got white supremacists like Steve Bannon pulling his strings and he's aligned to Putin. To think Theresa May has any real influence on him is delusional, but people who've bet the farm on Brexit have to pretend it'll all be fine, as to do anything else would be to admit that 'taking back control' actually translates as being so weak and friendless we have to get down on our knees and grovel to white supremacists and journalist-jailers, and pimp out the Queen while we're at it.

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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.

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Anglican't
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# 15292

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Brexit means Trump. We've basically decided to turn our back on Europe and hope that we can play patacake with an authoritarian white nationalist. I really can't see this ending well.

Do you really think so? The UK has long tried to forge a close relationship with the United States (mainly on defence and foreign affairs issues) and the Thatcher / Reagan, Blair / Clinton, Blair / Bush and Cameron / Obama relationships were all cultivated when we were fully paid up EEC / EU members. Had Britain voted 52% Remain I'm not sure what would've changed.

[ 31. January 2017, 19:27: Message edited by: Anglican't ]

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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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If the two old opposing Super Powers really are going to jump into bed with each other then the UK would be pretty foolish to play the prude and turn it's back on the whole thing.
If the 30's Germany hysteria spectacles are removed for one moment it could be that the world is now stood at the edge of an unprecedented period of prosperity.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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