homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » Evangelicals and fascism (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Evangelicals and fascism
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This should probably be in Dead Horses... [Hot and Hormonal]

[ 30. January 2017, 09:58: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17284 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

 - Posted      Profile for Og: Thread Killer     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:


So, yes, as an Anabaptist, the idea that the state should decide what morality is maintained is fundamentally against our beliefs. Thus when anybody talks about the weirdness of such a view, we all generally say "Welcome to our world."

Yes. I am aware that anabaptists exist who say that they're not evangelicals
That's not what I said.

I was commenting specifically on the issue you quoted and only that.

--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5021 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:
I said: Yes. I am aware that anabaptists exist who say that they're not evangelicals
That's not what I said.

I was commenting specifically on the issue you quoted and only that.

I perhaps should have said "I am also aware that.."

I was not intending to suggest that you did say that, I was simply pointing out that there are anabaptists who say that they are not Evangelicals and some who say that they're not Protestant.

I possibly should have quoted Steve Langton to make this point, I apologise for confusion.

But yes, I'm very aware of the anabaptist position on this and no I don't think it is a particularly helpful contribution to say "ah, but I'm an anabaptist" given that they're arguably not Evangelicals anyway.

[ 30. January 2017, 11:17: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10314 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

All the references to "whataboutery" in the world don't constitute a wriggle-out from the facts that all the features of fascism enumerated are also true of communism, or that Christians have been anti-fascist and victims of fascism, or that when Christians have been involved in political tyranny, they have been just as likely to be RC or Orthodox as evangelical, making your target completely arbitrary

Christianity should be stronger proof against the persecution of others, instead of jumping into bed with oppressors as willingly as it has.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17081 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
hatless

Shipmate
# 3365

 - Posted      Profile for hatless   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think that one of the characteristics of fascism is nationalism or some similar group identity. If it's national it will probably be a narrowed nationalism that excludes those who look, behave or sound different.

Whatever the prized group is, it will be affirmed with menace and violence against others, and especially against those who are only slightly different, and those who are different but live alongside the prized group. Uncovering those who do not truly belong will be done with great enthusiasm.

I think that this sort of exaggerated group identity thinking is a familiar human trait. Probably we all share it to some extent. In the past it has sometimes been a feature of Evangelical Christianity and of some Charismatic churches, too. There was a tendency to police the limits of acceptable doctrine. The unsound would be unmasked and excluded. The sound would know each other by the dog whistle language they shared and by gatherings that strongly affirmed identity.

But I don't think the Evangelical and Charismatic are the same now. They are more diverse, open and capable of being self-critical.

Perhaps the group think was the result of feeling themselves to be a precarious minority.

--------------------
My crazy theology in novel form

Posts: 4502 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Perhaps the group think was the result of feeling themselves to be a precarious minority.

I think there are some who still see themselves in this way, and are quick to raise the cry of "We're being persecuted for our beliefs" when in fact they're not.
Posts: 9464 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Perhaps the group think was the result of feeling themselves to be a precarious minority.

I think there are some who still see themselves in this way, and are quick to raise the cry of "We're being persecuted for our beliefs" when in fact they're not.
The erosion of privileged status is often seen as persecution.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17081 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm in a whiny, snarly mood tonight after watching the news a few hours ago. Self knowledge leads to self control...

I don't know much about evangelical christianity, and I know less and less about the United States, except that there are some very brave people there and I'm feeling a bit upset for them.

Hang on, I just realised that I was about to criticise Mr Cheesey for doing something I did in the US Election thread before the election. Only in my case I condemned the whole of White America for Trump, a little broad-brush. In my defence I was not coping at the time.

It's just not fair to target a whole class of people, and 'posing the question' is just doing it in a passive-aggressive way.

Love, support, prayer, tears, maybe cash? Not sure if they need cash, the Americans. Maybe Woody Guthrie? I hope folk comes back. I love folk.

[ 30. January 2017, 12:44: Message edited by: simontoad ]

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1249 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
hatless

Shipmate
# 3365

 - Posted      Profile for hatless   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I have been thinking about the Holocaust, 1930s Germany and the contemporary rise of fascism.

This is a quasi-Godwinian, ridiculously melodramatic ("Confessing Church" indeed; you don't have the faintest understanding of what Bonhoeffer was up against if you imagine it was remotely comparable to your situation) attempt to smear evangelicalism. on about the same adolescent level as calling one's parents or teachers "fascist".

You are just venting and self-dramatising.

It's clearly a ridiculous comparison, and yet it keeps presenting itself. America is nothing like 1930s Germany, but still, each new thing that happens is another step in that horribly familiar direction. On this day in January 1933 Hitler was installed as Chancellor, but he was just the vulgarian leader of an inexplicably popular minority government. A few weeks after the Reichstag burned he had complete control and the opposition was destroyed. Of course, we aren't going to see anything like that. Are we? Threats to national security? Protests becoming riots? Perhaps a war or threat of a war .. emergency powers, enabling act, hey presto!

Melodramatic or what!? But there is something of the spirit of the 1930s around. I don't see events then being any sort of guide to events now, but we saw the unexpected fragility of institutions and of balance, the corruptibility of human nature, a hideous delight in strength, and, as a footnote, the almost total failure of the Church. (The Confessing Church, by 1939 was, I believe, only 5% of the Evangelical Church, and by 1945 prisoner Bonhoeffer was no longer on the prayer list.)

--------------------
My crazy theology in novel form

Posts: 4502 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
Perhaps the group think was the result of feeling themselves to be a precarious minority.

I think there are some who still see themselves in this way, and are quick to raise the cry of "We're being persecuted for our beliefs" when in fact they're not.
The erosion of privileged status is often seen as persecution.
Indeed. And that even applies to Nonconformist Christians who have a history of genuinely being persecuted and discriminated against.
Posts: 9464 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601

 - Posted      Profile for Steve Langton   Email Steve Langton   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
by mr cheesy;
quote:
my main issue with the reply to Steve Langton was that he was giving a one-line "yes, this is why I'm an anabaptist *smiley face*" stock answer. *although the history of German Mennonites suggests that when fascism comes, anabaptists were not immune to appeasement either.
On the first bit, "guilty as charged" - though I intended and expect to say more than just that quick one-liner....

On the second, it is sadly true that the German Mennonites were misled and gave Hitler more approval than they should have. This was partly because they were looking at early stages when the full evil of Nazism was not yet apparent (and many more people in Germany and world-wide were equally misled), and partly because the history of the treatment of Russian Mennonites under Communism bulked larger in their sight, so Hitler's opposition to the Communists seemed important to them. They were wrong; ideally they should have known better. They weren't exactly alone in that mistake.

I think in Canada/USA where Og comes from, there is probably a significant line between the traditional Anabaptists and Evangelicals who they may regard as "neo-Constantinian" - the US 'Religious Right' for example. Things are less clear here in the UK because Mennonites have deliberately not set out to become yet another separate denomination over here but have set up a 'Mennonite Centre' (currently in Birmingham) which, along with the UK's own "Anabaptist Network" and many like-minded groups, makes Anabaptist ideas available. Thus people like myself who do identify as 'Anabaptist' are generally also involved in ordinary evangelical congregations - in my case BU Baptist - and see ourselves as also part of the wider UK evangelical community - where there is a long-standing tradition of inter-denominational cooperation.

Posts: 2149 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Steve - please do not use the "C"-word (even with "Neo-" in front of it). It really does rub people up the wrong way! [Smile]

[ 30. January 2017, 16:11: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posts: 9464 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601

 - Posted      Profile for Steve Langton   Email Steve Langton   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Steve - please do not use the "C"-word (even with "Neo-" in front of it). It really does rub people up the wrong way! [Smile]

Sorry BT - but did you really want the long-winded stuff I'd have had to go through to avoid said 'C-word'?

And actually the 'C-word' is pretty much relevant here. Or at least, whatever word is used, the 'state church' business is. mr cheesy's OP is about Evangelicals and Fascism and the desire to impose Christian morality by state power - and essentially it is those of a 'state church' mind-set, including the RCC and Orthodox as well as Evangelicals, who are subject to that temptation.

Evangelicals who believe the Bible are likely (to say the least) to disapprove of SSM and abortion; but it's those who have the state church mindset (or are muddled about it) who will want to use state power to impose their ideas, and thus are open to the temptations represented by fascist-style movements.

Posts: 2149 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Hmmm ... I think there is still a line between those who "want to use state power to impose their idea" and those who support the idea of a State Church itself.
Posts: 9464 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I kinda agree with SL but kinda don't. I don't think many Evangelicals really believe in Constantinian style states, and yet they do believe that the state should be lobbied to impose "correct" values on everyone else via laws.

And, since we are talking about Anabaptists, I doubt that the German Mennonites supported Hitler because they were believers in Constantinianism but for flatter, more base reasons.

Interestingly, Mennonites have a pretty crappy record of appeasing tyrants.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10314 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601

 - Posted      Profile for Steve Langton   Email Steve Langton   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Hmmm ... I think there is still a line between those who "want to use state power to impose their idea" and those who support the idea of a State Church itself.

I'm afraid this is where the line is these days. There are very few anywhere who want a specific 'State Church' in the old style. But there are quite a few who want a more general "Christian country" without a specific 'established' church, as eg the USA 'Religious Right', and many Protestants in Northern Ireland whose ideas were often described by opponents as 'fascist'. The situation described in the OP looks to me like that kind of thing.
Posts: 2149 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

 - Posted      Profile for Og: Thread Killer     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Hmmm ... I think there is still a line between those who "want to use state power to impose their idea" and those who support the idea of a State Church itself.

Agreed. Some people want a state that imposes a form of Christian behavior on everybody, Christians and non-Chistians alike. They see this as a way to deal with a world that is evil.

This is the triumph of a theology that prioritizes a full commitment to look at personal behavior and worshiping in order to get better at personal behaviour over worshiping with a full commitment and changing behaviour to become better at worshiping. The important part of Christianity for these people is how you live, not how you honour God.

Forcing everybody to practice in a particular church is no longer relevant.

--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5021 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

 - Posted      Profile for Og: Thread Killer     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
..
Interestingly, Mennonites have a pretty crappy record of appeasing tyrants.

Well you spend a hundred years or so watching your fellow adherents burnt alive in, for example, brass bulls, by Lutherans and Catholics alike, because they didn't do what the state wanted and you learn to accept a place to live without worrying too much about what the head honcho does as head honcho - mostly because every head honcho has their issues so what's the point. Heck, it wasn't until 30 or so years ago that major Reformation historians stopped calling Anabaptists dangerous.

Its only really been in the last 50 years some Mennonites have moved away from 400+ years of being quiet on the land.

--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5021 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

 - Posted      Profile for Crœsos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It is a long time since I've heard that kind of statement preached from the front, but it made me think about whether Evangelicals in particular leave themselves open to fascist tendencies because presumably a candidate who focuses on push button issues for Evangelicals (abortion, gay marriage) sounds more similar to the message from the front than one talking about protecting refugees.

It should be remembered that the Jim Crow South had a lot of markers of fascism (palingenesis, white supremacism, anti-Communism, a parallel state-like system that dispensed summary 'justice', etc.) and that the whole edifice was infused with Evangelicalism. Student of fascism David Neiwert makes a fairly convincing argument that the Ku Klux Klan is actually the world's first fascist organization. Given all that, a more relevant question might be whether Evangelicals are still open to fascist tendencies.

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10484 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Come on, Og, executions of Anabaptists didn't go on for 'hundreds of years' ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15499 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
a more relevant question might be whether Evangelicals are still open to fascist tendencies.

Any group that thinks it exclusively has the "truth" and thinks everyone should share that "truth" is open to being oppressive.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17081 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:


Its only really been in the last 50 years some Mennonites have moved away from 400+ years of being quiet on the land.

You might want to tell that to the Nazi-loving Mennonites of South America, Germany, Canada and elsewhere.

The idea that all Mennonites were quietist Amish minding their own business whilst everyone else fell into fascism is utter bunk. Bizarrely the Mennonites were some of those most attracted to the claims of fascists.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10314 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

 - Posted      Profile for Crœsos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
a more relevant question might be whether Evangelicals are still open to fascist tendencies.

Any group that thinks it exclusively has the "truth" and thinks everyone should share that "truth" is open to being oppressive.
True, but not all forms of oppression are fascism.

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10484 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Bizarrely the Mennonites were some of those most attracted to the claims of fascists.

I do not find it bizarre in the slightest. The German assistance to the Mennonites bought their loyalty. This is an all too human trait and no philolosophy is inherent proof against it.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17081 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I kinda agree with SL but kinda don't. I don't think many Evangelicals really believe in Constantinian style states, and yet they do believe that the state should be lobbied to impose "correct" values on everyone else via laws.

This isn't any kind of C-word. It's straight up theocracy, which is a very different (and altogether scarier) beast.

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8907 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I do not find it bizarre in the slightest. The German assistance to the Mennonites bought their loyalty. This is an all too human trait and no philolosophy is inherent proof against it.

It is bizarre when you consider what it is that they claim is the centre of the faith. I'm pretty sure that wasn't just uncovered in the last 60 years but was a real thread in their theology going back to their foundation story.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10314 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
True, but not all forms of oppression are fascism.

Agreed. But I think we focus too closely on certain forms of oppression, leaving the door open for denial of oppression because it doesn't fit particular definitions.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17081 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I do not find it bizarre in the slightest. The German assistance to the Mennonites bought their loyalty. This is an all too human trait and no philolosophy is inherent proof against it.

It is bizarre when you consider what it is that they claim is the centre of the faith. I'm pretty sure that wasn't just uncovered in the last 60 years but was a real thread in their theology going back to their foundation story.
Hypocrisy, thy name is human. Anything devised by people is subject to our foibles. I've nothing against Anabapists, I simply think their superiority cant* is nonsense.

*Obviously not all Anabaptists. Just those who think it is proof against corruption.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 17081 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601

 - Posted      Profile for Steve Langton   Email Steve Langton   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Come on, Og, executions of Anabaptists didn't go on for 'hundreds of years' ...

I think Og actually said only "a hundred years or so" rather than hundreds of years for the executions - though lesser persecution definitely went on far longer in many places.
Posts: 2149 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I suppose what I'm saying is that one could make an argument that Anabaptists supporting fascism and Nazism was fundamentally discordant with their status as a historical peacechurch.

I think there is a much harder argument in saying that a tendency towards a focus on push-button dead-horse topics isn't somehow the centre of most Evangelical's understanding the way their faith is to be lived.

Hitler had to persuade the Mennonites to act out of sync of their own theology and culture. With the Evangelicals, I suggest he just had to get them to act out the logical extreme of their own hardline rhetoric.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10314 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

 - Posted      Profile for Og: Thread Killer     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Come on, Og, executions of Anabaptists didn't go on for 'hundreds of years' ...

About 150 or so.

Allow me to introduce you to what was, for about 300 years, the second most important book to be read by Mennonites.


PDF Version

or

the wikipedia page

--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5021 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

 - Posted      Profile for Og: Thread Killer     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:


The idea that all Mennonites were quietist Amish minding their own business whilst everyone else fell into fascism is utter bunk. Bizarrely the Mennonites were some of those most attracted to the claims of fascists.

Did I say all? And did I say this was true during the 30's and 40's?

Quiet on the land was pretty much the watchword until the 1920's. And the assumption that all Mennonites followed your examples and supported fascism in the 30's and 40's is patently false.


I'm talking about the choice to acquiesce to the state. If your history, including pretty much the only book you read but the Bible, is rife with persecution by the State, and you hear from the pulpit the principle of keeping quiet, then..yes...you will acquiesce. I would point out that this didn't always go all that well (see Russia).

--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5021 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Did I say all? And did I say this was true during the 30's and 40's?

Quiet on the land was pretty much the watchword until the 1920's. And the assumption that all Mennonites followed your examples and supported fascism in the 30's and 40's is patently false.

I'd be very surprised if the majority of Mennonites and Anabaptists (in North America and Europe if nowhere else) were not already urbanised by the 1930s.

I didn't say that they all supported fascism. That's clearly not the case. But there was a strong Nazi supporting element within the body of Mennonites - which few now want to deny was a fundamental part of the early 20th century Mennonite experience in Europe and North America.

quote:

I'm talking about the choice to acquiesce to the state. If your history, including pretty much the only book you read but the Bible, is rife with persecution by the State, and you hear from the pulpit the principle of keeping quiet, then..yes...you will acquiesce. I would point out that this didn't always go all that well (see Russia).

That's quite a romantic way of looking at Mennonites which has little bearing on the way that their communities grew in South America in the 1920s and 1930s and Hutterites developed communities in Canada in the late 19 century.

In both of those cases, the communities were rooted in refugees from Russia and Germany - and yet they developed forms of self-government which was always at arms length from the rest of society. Very little government acquiesing in evidence.

[ 30. January 2017, 20:17: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10314 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

 - Posted      Profile for Og: Thread Killer     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And don't get me started on how we really shouldn't use a High School essay awarded via the Manitoba Historical Society as proof of anything - it wouldn't past muster in a 2nd year history course.

--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5021 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:


Its only really been in the last 50 years some Mennonites have moved away from 400+ years of being quiet on the land.

You might want to tell that to the Nazi-loving Mennonites of South America, Germany, Canada and elsewhere.

The idea that all Mennonites were quietist Amish minding their own business whilst everyone else fell into fascism is utter bunk. Bizarrely the Mennonites were some of those most attracted to the claims of fascists.

Mennonites are a diverse group in western Canada. There are progressive (Mennonite Central Committee) and highly conservative (Old Colony, Haldeman) groups, with nearly no-one resembling Amish. Hutterites are a different group and about the closest to Amish in appearance, but appearances are deceiving: they use up-to-date production technology and vehicles etc.

In my home province of Saskatchewan, there are more Mennonites than Anglicans. The singling out of particular denomination for pro-fascist views tells a deceptive story Mr. Cheesey. Mennonites were and are parts of racist societies and reflect the attitudes of the places in which they live. The KKK had a huge membership in Sask in the 1920s and 30s, with racism being a generally accepted fact, just like everywhere. That's no excuse, but it is a bit more complicated than you suggest.

Christians betrayed the principles and teachings of the Founder in all societies of the age, and they are at it again.

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11159 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
OK. Well anyway, it is a documented fact.

See this in The Mennonite and many academic articles about it: https://themennonite.org/window-antisemitism-nazism-among-mennonite-north-america-part-1/

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10314 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

 - Posted      Profile for Og: Thread Killer     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:
I'd be very surprised if the majority of Mennonites and Anabaptists (in North America and Europe if nowhere else) were not already urbanised by the 1930s.
They were not.


quote:


I didn't say that they all supported fascism. That's clearly not the case. But there was a strong Nazi supporting element within the body of Mennonites - which few now want to deny was a fundamental part of the early 20th century Mennonite experience in Europe and North America.


See my remarks about trusting that MB historical paper as anything.

quote:

That's quite a romantic way of looking at Mennonites which has little bearing on the way that their communities grew in South America in the 1920s and 1930s and Hutterites developed communities in Canada in the late 19 century.


Really? Can't talk about Hutterites (not my specialty sociology wise nor historically nor my own knowledge and experience base). BUT, having talked to leaders who left South America after WWII (some of them helped lead the church I joined in the 80's) and in talking with sociologists who have studied the Belize and Paraguayan groups you talk about, they indicate that trying to avoid being involved with the state (acquiescing in other words) was pretty much what they all wanted. Which is one reason why so many left the Chaco eventually.

quote:

In both of those cases, the communities were rooted in refugees from Russia and Germany - and yet they developed forms of self-government which was always at arms length from the rest of society. Very little government acquiescing in evidence.

I'm confused. Your point was about acquiescing to Fascsim. Now your saying they didn't?

Which is it?

--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5021 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The singling out of particular denomination for pro-fascist views tells a deceptive story Mr. Cheesey. Mennonites were and are parts of racist societies and reflect the attitudes of the places in which they live. The KKK had a huge membership in Sask in the 1920s and 30s, with racism being a generally accepted fact, just like everywhere. That's no excuse, but it is a bit more complicated than you suggest.

Christians betrayed the principles and teachings of the Founder in all societies of the age, and they are at it again.

The links between Mennonites and Nazis are a documented fact. If anyone is "singling" Mennonites out it is their own historians who have dug over this ground.

Anyway, if you don't mind, I'd like to get back to discussing Evangelicals now - if you want to discuss Mennonites and fascism, start your own thread to do so.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10314 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
I'm confused. Your point was about acquiescing to Fascsim. Now your saying they didn't?

Which is it?

The Mennonite colonies of South America desired to be their own states and have their own laws and customs quite separate from the wider South American society. The support for Nazis seems strongest in these groups - quite why I don't know.

I appreciate Hutterites are quite different, I have never heard that they had any association with Nazis however they have very isolationist tendencies in Canada.

The one thing neither group does is willingly submit to the national authorities any more than they have to.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10314 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

 - Posted      Profile for Og: Thread Killer     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
OK. Well anyway, it is a documented fact.

See this in The Mennonite and many academic articles about it: https://themennonite.org/window-antisemitism-nazism-among-mennonite-north-america-part-1/

Facts? In History? As even the writer of that paper said in a class I took, history is all about interpretation. [Biased]

Anyways...thanks for that link. Now THERE's something I wish I could sink my teeth into a bit more and read that dissertation - I glanced at it once way back when.

[Tangent]

I studied under Frank Epp at university. I was seriously wanting to work with him on my honours thesis and was looking forward to a life in academia....then he died and my world went in a very different direction.

I heard him talk about this aspect of things back then. I'd like to see what he, in 1965, was basing his opinion of how that magazine reflected Manitoba 1930's Mennonite thinking.

Good food for thought.

Thanks.

[/tangent]

I stand by my reflection that prior to the 30's, the Quietist movement was pretty standard in Anabaptism.

I stand by my reflection that Anabaptism was affected by 150 years of state persecution and thus has historically and theologically avoided wanting the state to take a role in morality.


And I stand by my reflection that started all this that when somebody states that it seems weird to want the state to take a role in morality that as an Anabaptist, I say "welcome to my world".

--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5021 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sure, Og, Anabaptists were persecuted. No-one is saying otherwise.

But one minute you seem to imply that this went on for about 400 years and then you knock it back to around 150. Of course, even if it'd lasted one year that would have been a year too long ...

Of course, the degree of persecution varied in intensity and waxed and waned according to circumstances.

And yes, there is something very attractive in the Anabaptist witness but it can topple over into a kind of censorious sentimentality ... But each Christian tradition has its good, bad and indifferent sides.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15499 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

 - Posted      Profile for Og: Thread Killer     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure, Og, Anabaptists were persecuted. No-one is saying otherwise.

But one minute you seem to imply that this went on for about 400 years and then you knock it back to around 150. Of course, even if it'd lasted one year that would have been a year too long ...

..

150 odd years of persecution - followed by 250 years of keeping looking at all that to try to figure out how to live which led to the point I really only wanted to make about finding the whole "the government should act Christian" thing weird.

Agree on your point about sentimentality.

[ 30. January 2017, 21:21: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]

--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5021 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sure, and Anabaptist influence is now spreading beyond its original base - I've come across people from a range of backgrounds who cite figured like Wink, Yoder and Hauerwas ...

Persecution does tend to shape things in both positive and negative ways. The whole medieval pantheon of Saints and Martyrs derived from hagiographies from periods of Roman persecution and the 'white martyrdom' of monasticism.

One could argue that the later experience of the Anabaptists mirrored on a micro scale, that which happened across the Early Church in the first few centuries.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15499 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The links between Mennonites and Nazis are a documented fact. If anyone is "singling" Mennonites out it is their own historians who have dug over this ground.

You included Canadian Mennonites, and you did not include documentation other than the essay. So this at the level of your opinion, not fact on the basis of what you posted.

quote:
Cheesy:
Anyway, if you don't mind, I'd like to get back to discussing Evangelicals now - if you want to discuss Mennonites and fascism, start your own thread to do so.

No. You started this aspect. You don't get to dismiss it. Unless you admit you failed to make our point. O have you conceded your failure to make you point?

--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

Posts: 11159 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
The Confessing Church, by 1939 was, I believe, only 5% of the Evangelical Church, and by 1945 prisoner Bonhoeffer was no longer on the prayer list.

Probably unnecessary, but just to be on the safe side in case anyone isn't aware, capital E "Evangelical" in this context is synonymous with Protestant, rather than with small e "evangelical".
Posts: 3234 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
hatless,I think KC is right about German Evangelical, 1939 vintage. I remember having something like this conversation with Lutheranchik way back, when the same point came up.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20932 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The point is that the tendency to look to law change on a few hot issues leaves Evangelicals open to electoral pitches on those issues which leads to tacit support for fascism.

This is drawing a very long bow indeed, and you have failed to demonstrate that there is any substance to it.

quote:
And I'd also say that you appear to know little about fascism given that it is always a gradual process. I know a reasonable amount both about how fascism develops and how Bonhoeffer opposed it from the beginning, even before it became obvious how awful it was going to get.
You obviously don't understand the immense differences between post-WWI Weimar Germany and the emergence of the Nazis, even in the early years, and the situation today.

You are teetering on the edge of historicism, which is very different to history.

quote:
In the countries where most of us are from - primarily the USA, the UK - Evangelicals are a far bigger force than Communists or the Orthodox.
You have missed the point , which is that just about anything characteristic of fascism can also be demonstrated from communism, which means that you might just as well warn that evangelicals are going communist as going fascist.

As for numbers, the US is a special case, but I have read a figure of 3% for the number of evangelicals in the UK. and that percentage would be about the same here in Australia.

quote:
The whataboutery (if you don't know what it means, look it up) is an effort to deflect discussion from a specific topic onto a more general topic by saying "ah yes, but what about.."
What I do know about accusations of "whataboutery" is that they can constitute an arbitrary attempt to enforce tunnel vision and prevent mention of other relevant material.
Posts: 3234 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
wabale
Shipmate
# 18715

 - Posted      Profile for wabale   Author's homepage   Email wabale   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A strong fascist movement needs its rallies. I don't think Evangelical rallies, in the UK at any rate, quite make it. That said I have once or twice thought, but not very seriously, that an evening meeting at Spring Harvest had disturbing elements. There was one year when the lighting display featured these columns, and I was reminded of the columns of light thoughtfully provided for the Nuremburg Rally by Albert Speer. Then there's the fact the meetings are carefully scheduled to start at twilight, when one's critical faculties are at their lowest. 'Lifting arms up in praise' can look awfully reminiscent of something rather more sinister. Then there are the lines in the choruses repeated over and over again. Actually one meeting attended by several thousand was compeered by a tory MP, but that's about as right-wing as it got, and I think if any politics had been mentioned one or two Anglicans might have stayed but all the Non-conformists would have immediately walked out to the chorus 'we are all individuals'. So I don't think a fascist leader would get much response from this lot at any rate.
Posts: 58 | From: Essex, United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2017  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Now what evangelicals have in common is a high view of scripture. But for a whole lot of historical reasons, there is partial amnesia in many parts of evangelicalism about this widespread content in scripture.

It may be partial amnesia, but I do feel that at least some of it is deliberate ignoring or re-contextualising things along certain lines. I was reminded of this today reading this:

https://itself.blog/2017/01/30/the-bible-will-not-save-us/

"On issues of social justice, the guiding concept is the “necessary evil.” Oh sure, it would be nice to be able to welcome everyone into our country, but in this fallen world, etc., etc. By contrast, on issues of sexual morality (and here I include abortion), no compromise is possible"

And I think the conclusion of that post may be uncomfortably close to home.

Posts: 3869 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I suspect the truth is that however much (some) Evangelicals want to paint themselves as bible-believers, the reality is that they don't actually seem to believe it.

If one really believes in the "body of Christ" and really believed that there is "no Jew, no Greek", then it is hard to argue that a Somali or Iraqi Christian is anything less than close family. If we really believe - even in a narrow Evangelical sense* - that our Lord wants us to care for the "least of these", it is impossible to argue that we have no responsibility to protect them from oppression and torment. It isn't possible to live as British or American citizens and argue that what we have is ours and the rest of you can fight the wolves for bread if we truly believe that our status is to be defined by who we are in Christ rather than where we were born.

Others are not immune from these stark contradictions, but then few others make bold statements about their "belief in the bible".

*ie the sense that Matthew 25 is talking about other Christian believers

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10314 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools