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Source: (consider it) Thread: Evangelicals and fascism
hatless

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
hatless,I think KC is right about German Evangelical, 1939 vintage. I remember having something like this conversation with Lutheranchik way back, when the same point came up.

Yes, that's right. It was the name of the Protestant churches in Germany. It might be clearer to call them Lutherans. They were not particularly evangelical in style or theology.

The Confessing Church, which did have a more evangelical feel with a simple, Christocentric statement of faith and a more austere and radical ethos, came about largely in response to the Aryan Clause. This forbade people with non-Aryan ancestry (a Jewish parent or grandparents) from taking certain posts, including that of pastor. 'You can't choose your clergy' provoked resistance within the churches. There was very little protest on behalf of other groups (they came for the trade unionists ..).

Yesterday I read that Steve Bannon, in 2015 I think, said he thought there were too many Asian and Middle Eastern CEOs in Silicon Valley, and, thinking about the consequences of trying to do something about this, that the USA is more than an economy.

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My crazy theology in novel form

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Baptist Trainfan
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This could be helpful.
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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
You obviously don't understand the immense differences between post-WWI Weimar Germany and the emergence of the Nazis, even in the early years, and the situation today.

You are teetering on the edge of historicism, which is very different to history.

You obviously don't take much heed of the warnings about the emergence of fascism written by those who lived through it. Such as this at the US Holocaust Museum,

quote:
You have missed the point , which is that just about anything characteristic of fascism can also be demonstrated from communism, which means that you might just as well warn that evangelicals are going communist as going fascist.
You haven't actually read what I've written. Fascism is a different beast than Communism, for the simple reason that it appeals to people's sense of strength and belief that a small group of strong leaders will turn the country back to the right direction.

Communism clearly has a lot of faults, but it is never going to appeal to people who are looking for a strong leader to exact their theology in public.

Fascism is bad. Communism doesn't have to be as bad, although often is. There is almost zero threat of Evangelicals being taken up with rampant Leninist or Stalinist Marxism because it is the antithesis of much of Evangelical teaching.

quote:
As for numbers, the US is a special case, but I have read a figure of 3% for the number of evangelicals in the UK. and that percentage would be about the same here in Australia.
I don't know about Australia, but in the UK and US the Evangelicals have a particular position of privilege and influence that by far outweighs other groups.

quote:
What I do know about accusations of "whataboutery" is that they can constitute an arbitrary attempt to enforce tunnel vision and prevent mention of other relevant material.
Yes, right, by saying that I can't discuss something because I don't know enough about it, I'm clearly preventing mention of it. As I said, if you want to talk about Roman Catholics and fascism or the Orthodox and fascism go ahead. I can't contribute because I know nothing about it.

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arse

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Baptist Trainfan
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This could be helpful.
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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
... I don't know about Australia, but in the UK and US the Evangelicals have a particular position of privilege and influence that by far outweighs other groups. ...

I can't comment on the US, but if you think that is so in the UK, your dislike of evangelicals is distorting your objectivity.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I can't comment on the US, but if you think that is so in the UK, your dislike of evangelicals is distorting your objectivity.

Ookay, so you don't believe that Evangelicals have more privilege and presence in society than particular Muslim denominations, Progressive Jews, Mahayana Buddhists etc?

I'd agree that the Church of England as a whole has a lot more visibility than Evangelicals, but the Evangelicals punch well above their weight of numbers.

I don't know how the RCC compares.

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arse

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Now what evangelicals have in common is a high view of scripture. But for a whole lot of historical reasons, there is partial amnesia in many parts of evangelicalism about this widespread content in scripture.

It may be partial amnesia, but I do feel that at least some of it is deliberate ignoring or re-contextualising things along certain lines. I was reminded of this today reading this:

https://itself.blog/2017/01/30/the-bible-will-not-save-us/

"On issues of social justice, the guiding concept is the “necessary evil.” Oh sure, it would be nice to be able to welcome everyone into our country, but in this fallen world, etc., etc. By contrast, on issues of sexual morality (and here I include abortion), no compromise is possible"

And I think the conclusion of that post may be uncomfortably close to home.

Excellent link. I was also struck by this quote.

quote:
The situation is much worse on the conservative side. I grew up in that environment and remained in it as an alienated college student, and there is one thing about conservative Christian culture that is absolutely certain: if you mention the moral teachings of Jesus, they will literally laugh at you. I have seen it a hundred times. Presenting Jesus’s teachings as an actual guideline to what you should actually do is the mark of a theologically naive rube — all the more so if you believe it’s a guide to specifically political action.
I think that may be the heart of the real disease and its theological root is to be found in a particular understanding of "total depravity". In the original Calvinist understanding, it was an assertion that our reasoning and moral senses were, like the rest of creation, tainted by sin. But it has evolved into an understanding that we cannot place any trust in our individual reasoning and moral sense. What was meant as an indicator of our fallibility has been taken further. We must be saved; we must turn to the bible for answers.

The fact that our turning to scripture means an application of our reasoning and sense of morals seems to get lost somewhere in that journey. The net effect is a kind of anti-nonconformism, a reliance on trustworthy "sound" teachers and preachers. Individual conscience and the freedom to dissent are not much taught anywhere these days. Dissent seems to have been corrupted into something like this. "We know we don't believe that".

There seem to be a lot of easily-led sheep out there in the US evangelical constituency, to judge from the voting figures. Here's an interesting quote from the Wiki article on nonconformism, which I used recently in another thread.

quote:
Historians distinguish two categories of Dissenters, or Nonconformists, in addition to the evangelicals or "Low Church" element in the Church of England. "Old Dissenters," dating from the 16th and 17th centuries, included Baptists, Congregationalists, Quakers, Unitarians, and Presbyterians outside Scotland. "New Dissenters" emerged in the 18th century and were mainly Methodists. The "Nonconformist Conscience" was their moral sensibility which they tried to implement in British politics. The "Nonconformist conscience" of the Old group emphasized religious freedom and equality, pursuit of justice, and opposition to discrimination, compulsion, and coercion. The New Dissenters (and also the Anglican evangelicals) stressed personal morality issues, including sexuality, temperance, family values, and Sabbath-keeping.
Personally, I'm an Old Dissenter, which is one of the reasons I get so cheesed off with herd-like behaviour and thoughtless obsessions about "hot button issues". My forebears got burned for their stroppiness and independent-mindedness. There is a "heretical imperative" (a willingness to question) in the application of Christian conscience which is not at all heresy. Rather, it is a proper use of our God-given freedoms.

Perhaps my "partial amnesia" was too generous? Maybe the real issue is the loss of encouragement of the value (not infallibility) of independent thought and individual conscience. As one of my old nonco friends in my local congo put it, "If God can speak through an ass, He can certainly speak through you. Mind you, there may be some braying mixed in there!"

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Penny S
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Yay. I'm an Old Dissenter. I'm not sure whether this is nature or nurture, or a form of theological Lamarckism involving both. (Brought up Congregationalist, later a Quaker. Grandparent level Congregationalist, but the cousinry includes Quakers that I didn't originally know about. I wasn't taught much about dissenting habits in the church, so have to have absorbed it somewhere else.)

My sister, and I may have mentioned this elsewhere, went to a meeting as a student where those who didn't join in the enthusiastic stuff were focussed on, and people on the doors were making it difficult to leave. She made a certain comparison about the situation which matches the thread title.

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Leprechaun

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I can't comment on the US, but if you think that is so in the UK, your dislike of evangelicals is distorting your objectivity.

Ookay, so you don't believe that Evangelicals have more privilege and presence in society than particular Muslim denominations, Progressive Jews, Mahayana Buddhists etc?


I really don't believe that. What is the evidence that evangelicals are punching above their weight in public life? Seeing as evangelicals can't really agree on the application of Scripture to politics on anything but a few motherhood and apple pie issues, I'm not sure even how testable your hypothesis is.
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Og: Thread Killer
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I suspect the truth is that however much (some) Evangelicals want to paint themselves as bible-believers, the reality is that they don't actually seem to believe it.

...

Some, not much, and certainly not all.

Just like every other religious group.

E.g


Daily Mail (yes Daily Mail) article about priest in New York putting out a Pro Trump weird meme

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Og: Thread Killer
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OK, I've thought about this over night:

quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
I'm confused. Your point was about acquiescing to Fascsim. Now your saying they didn't?

Which is it?

The Mennonite colonies of South America desired to be their own states ....
No.

What they asked for is to have their own schools and own colonies with laws related to military service not apply to them. Much as Anabaptist and Mennonite groups have asked for since some of them went to Prussia in the 1700's.

That's not having their own states.


Ur torquing this argument really far for weird reasons that seem to be along the lines of "MENNONITES CAN BE BAD!" As I would say on twitter.

Dude....I know that. I'm not Mennonite because Mennonites are perfect. I'm Mennonite because the underlying theology makes sense to me.

I'm going to disengage - not worth arguing when the discussion is based on select texts to prove that certain people are more open to fascism.

Given what I'm reading almost daily about pretty much EVERY Christian group in the US having people who think Trump is the best thing going on in the world, this discussion is pointless finger pointing.

No one group is more susceptible.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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Penny S
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And the comments - why do I read them? I don't know which are worst, the ones who think it was funny, and the ones who think the antis should do it.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by wabale:
That said I have once or twice thought, but not very seriously, that an evening meeting at Spring Harvest had disturbing elements.

There is no substantive difference in the methodology between faith/community building in a mainstream religion and indoctrination in a cult. I'm not equating Christianity with cults, I do think there is a difference in outcome and intent. Generally.
But it does show the potential for manipulation.
On paper, evangelicals should be more prone to extremist ideology, and I do think this could be generally true. However, on paper, Anabaptists should be more proof against such and history shows this not to be as true as it should.
Reality can be more complicated, than rhetoric, obviously.
But the ideology behind "this is the way" is more potentially dangerous than "this is a way".
But then I would think that. [Biased]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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wabale
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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I suspect the truth is that however much (some) Evangelicals want to paint themselves as bible-believers, the reality is that they don't actually seem to believe it.

...

Some, not much, and certainly not all.

Just like every other religious group.


It takes a lot of (interesting) time to define 'fascism', 'Evangelical', and to decide what country we're talking about. With regard to the UK, I have never heard the sentence 'the Prime Minister is doing this to appeal to Evangelical Christians'. That said, I don't particularly like the Christian Institute.

There is one type of Evangelical pitch from the front which does concern me, however. Holy Trinity Brompton had a Christian leaders' conference at the Albert Hall a few years ago. One of the speakers was the CEO of a company that was notorious for the way it was handling the takeover of various public installations and services, and the way it was running some of them. Perhaps it was simply the brief he was given, but he proceeded to give a talk about how he balanced his spiritual and business life. Absolutely nothing about the ethics of business. Warm audience reaction. Tacit acceptance of the unacceptable face of capitalism.

But it is, I think, part of the wider problem that Christians, and not necessarily Evangelicals, forget they are Christians once they've left home and are in the workplace.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I'm an Old Dissenter, which is one of the reasons I get so cheesed off with herd-like behaviour and thoughtless obsessions about "hot button issues"... There is a "heretical imperative" (a willingness to question) in the application of Christian conscience which is not at all heresy. Rather, it is a proper use of our God-given freedoms.

I'm with you (and I've preached about this). But I think that many churches/Christians who come from that tradition actually know nothing about it. But it's a precious and important heritage, ad I find that many of my Baptist friends are far too inclined (as you mention) to simply look for what is "sound" and uncontroversial.

[ 31. January 2017, 12:35: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Penny S
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My parents had, in the 30s, been involved with a tremendously active Congregational Church - Boys Brigade, G&S productions, and loads of education in their faith.
They went back for a visit in, probably, the 80s, and found worship songs from projection and an American style of preaching which was not deep, and felt that it had lost its roots.

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SvitlanaV2
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I was flicking through a book on right-wing politics and religion in Europe, and it said that British evangelicalism and the British right wing were not a good fit.

The issue seems to be that evangelicalism here is very weak when compared to the rest of the society (note that the church that mentioned in the OP was described as 'small), and politicians make no serious attempt to court the evangelical vote. Evangelicals don't expect any serious political party to focus on 'evangelical' interests, so why would they pick a party for evangelical reasons?

Moreover, far right groups such as the BNP are only Christian in a broad cultural sense, and are unable to cash in on Christianity as a vital faith. The working class constituency of such groups is probably also a barrier to influences from organised religion.

The nationalism inherent in fascism is another problem for British evangelicalism, which now relies considerably on ethnic minority members for its own numerical strength. In London, where most churchgoers are now black, it would be political suicide for a 'fascist' leader to expect churchgoers to buy into Aryan rhetoric, or whatever. In fact, they'd be more likely to visit an African megachurch and burble on about 'shared values'!

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Baptist Trainfan
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Two thoughts.

1. Evangelicalism has two (at least) separate roots in Britain (or, to be more precise, England). One is Anglican and the other Nonconformist. Both come with different assumptions vis-a-vis the State, the class system, politics and the "status quo".

2. At every election there are candidates from "Christian" parties - presumably rightish-wing Evangelical and concentrating on moral issues rather than (say) economics. Despite the high hopes of those involved, these never gain many votes. Clearly British Christians see politics in a different light to our American friends.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

1. Evangelicalism has two (at least) separate roots in Britain (or, to be more precise, England). One is Anglican and the other Nonconformist. Both come with different assumptions vis-a-vis the State, the class system, politics and the "status quo".

Though a fair amount of church goers of both stripes have been exposed to the 'other side' such that you get non-conformist thoughts circulating in Anglican circles and more Erastian thoughts circulating in some non-conformist circles (some of the newer charismatic groups tend to go in this direction).

There is of course the establishment approach of both some much more traditional Anglican churches, as well as a kind of nouveau-establishment approach of churches like HTB which can sometimes seem to be rather comfortable with the idea of secular power. In that perhaps they are to the older style establishment approach, as Blairism is to Conservatism (ISTR Blair spoke at an HTB event some years back).

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ExclamationMark
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My non conformism runs deep. In political belief and spiritual perspective, as well as in public behaviour.

My ancesters fought under Cromwell in the New Model Army. Just before the First World War, A Great Grandfather left a job as a shepherd when he refused to bring his son to work on the Farm for the (Church Warden) farmer. {It was a case of "either he comes or you go." He went).

AFAIK they were independents. The ones I did know were rather to the left of centre, some extremely so.

Some British Evangelicals will be right wing - the HTB lot/New Wine are probably Tory lite/Cameronesque, reflecting their socio economic make up. Some will be more extreme and they often keep their heads below the parapet.

Now it might be equally interesting to explore the link between Catholics and Fascism. We have WW" to pick over there and perhaps a reflection on the RCC's position vis a vis the IRA.

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SvitlanaV2
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British Catholicism has traditionally been associated with left wing politics, hasn't it?

These days its numbers are being boosted by immigration, which suggests that a fascist-level focus on Britishness or Englishness wouldn't get very far.

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wabale
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

Some British Evangelicals will be right wing - the HTB lot/New Wine are probably Tory lite/Cameronesque, reflecting their socio economic make up. Some will be more extreme and they often keep their heads below the parapet.


This could be about right, though the HTB conference I went to, which had both Tony Blair and the CEO I mentioned, had a lot of vicars, but not necessarily their congregations. While I think socio-economic background is sometimes more telling than the denominational names we bear, so too is what you might call 'cast of mind'. There's a Ted Talk that goes into this, by Jonathan Haidt (an American) - 'The moral roots of liberals and conservatives' where he identifies factors like Harm/Care, Authority/Respect and other principles we regard as important. I particularly like the example he gives of what dogs liberals and conservatives prefer. More practically useful are his tips on how these different groups can talk to each other – I wouldn't like to think people are doomed to stay in their moulds without changing.
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Ethne Alba
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This has been a fascinating read thus far.

My 2p worth?
Whenever churches preach endlessly about sin and personal salvation....without..... addressing the wider world that we all live in....there will continue to be a disconnect in the outworking of that faith.

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Gramps49
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The modern American Evangelical Movement got started with the US Supreme Court decision Brown v Wade, which began the process of school desegregation. All of the sudden many white southern churches began pulling their kids out of public schools and setting up all white private schools. When the Internal Revenue Service ruled that they could not be tax exempt because they were discriminating, they banded together to form the National Evangelical Association under the likes of Jerry Falwell.

So, the Evangelical movement does have a racist background--and still does. It also retreated into other reactionary social policies. It's constant aversion to progress has set it us to support the fascist policies of the alt right under the leadership of Steve Bannon and Donald Trump.

Adolf Hitler was able to co-opt the state church because of its doctrine that the prince could do nothing wrong. Trump and Brannon likewise are co-opting the Evangelical movement because of their reactionary stances. That is why he was able to garner 80+% of the Evangelical vote

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
This has been a fascinating read thus far.

My 2p worth?
Whenever churches preach endlessly about sin and personal salvation....without..... addressing the wider world that we all live in....there will continue to be a disconnect in the outworking of that faith.

Fred Clark argues that this is a deliberate feature, not an accidental bug, of Evangelicalism:

quote:
Christendom never described itself as “biblical civilization” until the 17th century. For the previous 16 centuries of Christianity, the Bible did not play such a role in the way that Christians and “Christian civilization” identified and imagined itself. Such an idea just wasn’t available or possible before then. The transformation of Christendom from “Christian civilization” into “biblical civilization” was not a thing that could have happened until after the printing press and the widespread availability of non-Latin translations.

And as soon as such a thing became possible — as soon as the English-speaking colonists who would later become “Americans” first had the opportunity to redefine themselves and begin to identify as “biblical” Christians — it began to be shaped by the nearly concurrent rise of the institution of slavery.

The King James Version of the Bible was completed in 1611. The first African slaves were imported into Jamestown in 1619. “Biblical” Christianity and the idea of “biblical civilization” grew up alongside slavery. The latter shaped the former, and the two things have been inextricably intertwined ever since.

The invention of “biblical” Christianity and of the idea of “biblical civilization” was for the purpose of accommodating slavery. That may not have been its exclusive purpose, but it was an essential function of the thing. It was a concept shaped and designed and tailored so that it could and would defend and perpetuate slavery.

So it goes back a lot farther than Gramps49 suggests. See also.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Og: Thread Killer
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
This has been a fascinating read thus far.

My 2p worth?
Whenever churches preach endlessly about sin and personal salvation....without..... addressing the wider world that we all live in....there will continue to be a disconnect in the outworking of that faith.

Fred Clark argues that this is a deliberate feature, not an accidental bug, of Evangelicalism:

quote:
...

The invention of “biblical” Christianity and of the idea of “biblical civilization” was for the purpose of accommodating slavery. That may not have been its exclusive purpose, but it was an essential function of the thing. It was a concept shaped and designed and tailored so that it could and would defend and perpetuate slavery.

So it goes back a lot farther than Gramps49 suggests. See also.

Yeah...uh...no.

Sometimes its good to remind people there was this whole 80 year period before Jamestown when this thing called the Reformation was going on. It involved things other then the KJV. And it did involved what we would recognise as evangelicalism.

Its not always about the US.

[ 31. January 2017, 21:22: Message edited by: Og: Thread Killer ]

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by wabale:
More practically useful [Jonathan Haidt's] are his tips on how these different groups can talk to each other – I wouldn't like to think people are doomed to stay in their moulds without changing.

But politics isn't really what prevents British Christians from talking to each other, AFAICS. Not party politics, anyway.

If British evangelicals change their minds on SSM, abortion or anything else, it's hard to see what party politics or allegiance will have to do with that. More relevant, I suspect, is the surrounding secular culture, and whether church leaders and members gradually fall in line with that - or not.

And if posh evangelicals vote Tory, aren't they probably doing so because they're posh, not because they're evangelical?

I haven't heard anything about evangelicals voting LibDem just because the party's current leader could be counted as one of their number. You're more likely to come across atheists online grumbling about his God-bothering and his alleged homophobia!

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by wabale:
There's a Ted Talk that goes into this, by Jonathan Haidt (an American) - 'The moral roots of liberals and conservatives' where he identifies factors like Harm/Care, Authority/Respect and other principles we regard as important.

There are elements of Haidt's Moral Foundations that are both incomplete and problematic, however the general approach does have a bearing on this thread. If I can summon up the time/energy at some point I might start another thread along these lines.
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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
You obviously don't take much heed of the warnings about the emergence of fascism written by those who lived through it. Such as this at the US Holocaust Museum,

All the points on that list have been characteristic of various forms of communism, including state-controlled churches.

quote:
Fascism is a different beast than Communism, for the simple reason that it appeals to people's sense of strength and belief that a small group of strong leaders will turn the country back to the right direction.
That has been precusely the appeal of communism in a number of instances - strong leadership which will take the country in the right direction.

quote:
Communism clearly has a lot of faults, but it is never going to appeal to people who are looking for a strong leader to exact their theology in public.
If by theology, you mean conservative sexual morality, as you appear to do, then communist regimes have consistently enforced a stern sexual puritanism, from Stalin and Mao and Kim Il Sung and Pol Pot, to Castro's persecution of gays.

Conversely, fascist regimes have often tolerated a great deal of "permissiveness".

Hitler and Mussolini both 'lived in sin" with partners, with Mussolini quite actively promiscuous - as were Nazi leaders such as Goering and Goebbels, and powerful signature bodies such as the SS disregardful of "bourgeois" morality.

Franco's regime was strict in this area, but then Franco was arguably not so much a fascist as an authoritarian reactionary who co-opted the Falange for his own purposes (the opposite of Hitler, a radical, nihilist fascist who co-opted conservative forces which he despised for his own purposes).

quote:
I don't know about Australia, but in the UK and US the Evangelicals have a particular position of privilege and influence that by far outweighs other groups.

Really?

Details, please.

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SvitlanaV2
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I'm certainly curious to hear how evangelicals in the UK have power, presumably political power, that outweighs that of other groups.

Maybe in some areas they're able to swing by-elections, or something. But the same could be said for Muslims or non-churchgoing Anglicans elsewhere.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
I don't know about Australia, but in the UK and US the Evangelicals have a particular position of privilege and influence that by far outweighs other groups.

Really?

Details, please.

Well there's Focus on the Family, which has a great deal of political power. Just off the top of my head.

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Brenda Clough
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IMO this article is optimistic. Their stand is, alas, by no means unanimous, the biggest holdout being the weaselly Franklin Graham.

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Ethne Alba
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I'm British. AFAIK (and i'm open to correction on this!) in the UK we have not had the American history of evangelical leaders cosy-ing up to political leaders and openly attempting to turn their heads and hearts. Neither have we had noted evangelical church leaders attempting to influence their congregations on specific political matters.
Whenever UK church leaders venture into party political territory, there is a gentle rumble in the pews.

America is a whole other place, with a totally separate history. We speak the same language but round about there the similarity stops.

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Gamaliel
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I wouldn't say that UK evangelicals punch above their weight in the public/political sphere - but I do think their influence is greater than their actual numbers - but often in areas that aren't a 'big deal' - such as the popularity of contemporary worship songs across a wider constituency than their original evangelical base.

One could argue that schemes like Street Pastors show a positive influence emanating from within evangelicalism - and I'd certainly suggest that it does - even though I'd distance myself from some of the language and assumptions deployed.

I do detect a somewhat right-ish, Brexit-y tinge to some corners of independent evangelicalism here in the UK. Anyone ever had the misfortune to watch a clip of Revelation TV on You Tube?

[Help]

That's all Daily Mail style, 'Woe! Woe! Woe! We used to be such a Christian nation ... look at King Alfred defeating the Danes ...' and so on.

But no, I don't think there's any imminent danger of a lurch towards fascism within UK evangelicalism.

I can't speak for the US but from what I can see things don't look very good over there ... not very good at all ...

[Ultra confused] [Eek!]

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Ethne Alba
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Nope haven't watched...and for the good of my soul......maybe i won't!
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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I do detect a somewhat right-ish, Brexit-y tinge to some corners of independent evangelicalism here in the UK. Anyone ever had the misfortune to watch a clip of Revelation TV on You Tube?

[Help]

That's all Daily Mail style, 'Woe! Woe! Woe! We used to be such a Christian nation ... look at King Alfred defeating the Danes ...'

Well, at least in some charismatic circles, this isn't entirely new is it? It tends to go along with the importing in of the prophetic tropes of American Charismaticism (the EU as the Beast's Empire, EU symbols influenced by Satanism and so on), merges the older styles charismaticism's love of certain dictators who had successfully played the Christian card (Marcos being the most obvious example).

Simultaneously, there is a kind of New-Rightism of the kinds of Third Wave groups that are built around millennials - perhaps as a reaction against popular trends in society.

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Gamaliel
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No, it's not entirely new, but from observation, I've seen it gain a foothold in places that wouldn't have been as susceptible to it 20 to 30 years ago.

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Callan
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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:
If by theology, you mean conservative sexual morality, as you appear to do, then communist regimes have consistently enforced a stern sexual puritanism, from Stalin and Mao and Kim Il Sung and Pol Pot, to Castro's persecution of gays.

Conversely, fascist regimes have often tolerated a great deal of "permissiveness".

Hitler and Mussolini both 'lived in sin" with partners, with Mussolini quite actively promiscuous - as were Nazi leaders such as Goering and Goebbels, and powerful signature bodies such as the SS disregardful of "bourgeois" morality.

Franco's regime was strict in this area, but then Franco was arguably not so much a fascist as an authoritarian reactionary who co-opted the Falange for his own purposes (the opposite of Hitler, a radical, nihilist fascist who co-opted conservative forces which he despised for his own purposes).

I'm not aware of an instance where churches have supported communism because of the official stance of the communist party on sexual morality. But the Catholic Church signed concordats with Mussolini and Hitler and actively supported Franco during the civil war. The failure of German Lutheranism - notwithstanding heroic exceptions - to oppose National Socialism is also well known. Insofar as Christians succumb to the totalitarian temptation they tend to support regimes of the authoritarian right, rather than left.

Where I would agree with you is that communist regimes have been every bit as abhorrent as fascist regimes and that evangelicals, considered globally, would not be the first port of call for a fascist looking to drum up recruits. On the other hand we have just seen 81% of white evangelicals voting for a white nationalist as US President. I think that a thread on this phenomenon as opposed to a thread on evangelicals and fascism based on one sermon opposing gay marriage might have been more interesting.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Gamaliel
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Yes, indeed, Callan and also with a lot more to 'go at'. How about starting such a thread?

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Let us with a gladsome mind
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