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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is circumcision abuse?
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Are there any men onboard who actually feel aggrieved by their "status"?
[ 06. February 2017, 18:17: Message edited by: Galilit ]
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is neither assault nor battery. You give short shrift to actual abuse by the misuse of the term.
Men.
"Men"? Seriously? You disappoint me.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is neither assault nor battery. You give short shrift to actual abuse by the misuse of the term.
Men.
"Men"? Seriously? You disappoint me.
'Men'? WTF is that about?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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toadstrike
Apprentice
# 18244
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Are there any men onboard who actually feel aggrieved by their "status"?
Very slightly. There are other things that annoy me more.
Posts: 24 | From: Welwyn Garden City, UK | Registered: Oct 2014
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
Not so much aggrieved as curious, I suppose.
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Does the nonexistence of such men on SOF nullify their existence elsewhere? Or nullify the opinions of those who are elsewhere?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I was amazed when I realized it was done in England for health reasons, up until the 1950s, I think, although I think 'health' was interpreted rather liberally.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I believe that (in non-Jewish contexts) the idea was to deter masturbation. I could not speak to whether it is effective for that purpose or not. But I have read Portnoy's Complaint, and am inclined to think the entire thing is a boondoggle if that is your goal.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Are there any men onboard who actually feel aggrieved by their "status"?
I'm not sure how much difference it makes - for infant circumcision people don't know anything different. Also, we mostly go along with tradition. Many women are happy with their FGM, they encourage their daughters to undergo it, and they perform most of the operations. That doesn't make it acceptable.
Here's a diagram of how a circumcision works. (Possibly NSFW, but it's only a diagram not photos, so I've not hidden it under two clicks.) There need to be two or three substantial cuts - one around the circumference of the penis - then a load of stitches just below the glans. This is all done into some of the body's most sensitive skin. Anesthetic is rarely used for babies.
As an adult I'd find that extremely nasty. I have no reason to think that an infant, held down and frightened, doesn't find it equally so.
I'm unsure about my position on circumcision, primarily because of the huge significance it has for Jews and Muslims. There's also a good argument it should be legal or else it'll be done in backstreet clinics. I'm uncomfortable with the term 'abuse' since the parents have good intentions, but I can see why others would use it.
But male circumcision isn't a trivial operation. IMO it can legitimately be compared to some of the less severe forms of FGM, at least in terms of the pain of the procedure. Saying it's like an ear-piercing is badly off.
[ 06. February 2017, 19:57: Message edited by: Hiro's Leap ]
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Suppose a state were to make circumcision illegal unless a doctor had certified that for that child it was medically essential. Suppose the legislation did not exempt Jews and Moslems from such a law. Does anyone really think it is possible to produce a persuasive argument that such state action would be anything other than anti-semitic, anti-Moslem, overtly anti-religious and probably all three?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
"It is technically an assault to operate on a patient without her consent ... In England, anyone over 16 years of age can give legally valid consent for surgical or medical treatment."
"Principles of Gynaecological Surgery", ed. S. Stanton, p. 4.
See the part that says without consent? That is the bit that matters. If someone hits you without consent, it is a crime. If someone hits you in the ring, it is a sport. Context matters.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
But male circumcision isn't a trivial operation. IMO it can legitimately be compared to some of the less severe forms of FGM, at least in terms of the pain of the procedure. Saying it's like an ear-piercing is badly off.
Seriously, how the hell would you know this?
In any case I don't see that pain is even a legitimate criterion. Lots of medical things are painful. My dentist is painful. Turns out that her cleaning my teeth is MORE painful than giving me a filling.
[ 06. February 2017, 21:18: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
"It is technically an assault to operate on a patient without her consent ... In England, anyone over 16 years of age can give legally valid consent for surgical or medical treatment."
"Principles of Gynaecological Surgery", ed. S. Stanton, p. 4.
See the part that says without consent? That is the bit that matters. If someone hits you without consent, it is a crime. If someone hits you in the ring, it is a sport. Context matters.
When's the last time an infant gave consent to be snipped?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Does the nonexistence of such men on SOF nullify their existence elsewhere? Or nullify the opinions of those who are elsewhere?
The existence of millions of circumcised American men and Jewish men* who had no issue because it doesn't appear matter physically and no one told them they should be angry, matter.
Ok, a blanket condemnation of men is not right. But neither is the bullshit use of assault, battery or abuse.
*And men of old in England and Australia.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
"It is technically an assault to operate on a patient without her consent ... In England, anyone over 16 years of age can give legally valid consent for surgical or medical treatment."
"Principles of Gynaecological Surgery", ed. S. Stanton, p. 4.
See the part that says without consent? That is the bit that matters. If someone hits you without consent, it is a crime. If someone hits you in the ring, it is a sport. Context matters.
When's the last time an infant gave consent to be snipped?
When's the last time an infant consented to a vaccination?
Parental consent is a well-established principle.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
When's the last time an infant gave consent to be snipped?
You, mousethief, did much to your children without consent. Those things, if not done with care, have the potential to screw up those children far worse than a properly done circumcision.
[ 06. February 2017, 21:23: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
Vaccination is not mutilation.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
When's the last time an infant consented to a vaccination?
Parental consent is a well-established principle.
Vaccinations can claim medical necessity. Except possibly in cases of phimosis that excuse is not open to circumcision. That little snippet of a point keeps dropping out of the discussion somehow.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
When's the last time an infant gave consent to be snipped?
You, mousethief, did much to your children without consent. Those things, if not done with care, have the potential to screw up those children far worse than a properly done circumcision.
I did very nothing medically to my children that was potentially harmful without medical good reason. And certainly not surgery.
[ 06. February 2017, 21:27: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
When's the last time an infant consented to a vaccination?
Parental consent is a well-established principle.
Vaccinations can claim medical necessity. Except possibly in cases of phimosis that excuse is not open to circumcision. That little snippet of a point keeps dropping out of the discussion somehow.
It doesn't keep dropping out of the discussion. But what is happening is that as soon as one point is addressed, people jump to a quite separate issue and we just go around and around in circles.
You are the one who suggested that the consent of an infant mattered. If you can just admit that this is a straw man, and that we never demand the consent of infants, we can move on to discussing the limits of parental consent.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
But male circumcision isn't a trivial operation. IMO it can legitimately be compared to some of the less severe forms of FGM, at least in terms of the pain of the procedure.
FGM is done to control women. It is not nuetral in outcome.
Female genitalia is more than merely skin covering the clitoris and vaginal opening. There is only 1 subtype of FGM (type 1a) that even approaches circumcision and that is rarely done by itself.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
there was a recent (2015) American report saying that the benefits of infant male circumcision outweighs the risk. There are several responses [...] which suggested that that a number of factors weren't taken into account.
American doctors seem to be more pro-circumcision than many other countries. For instance, 'Denmark’s 29,000 Doctors Declare Circumcision of Healthy Boys an “Ethically Unacceptable” Procedure'. (I've no idea who is right.)
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
As I understand it, this outrage is generally connected to the "Men's Rights" movement.
To some extent, but there also seem to be quite a few feminists involved - much kudos to them. An anti-circumcision stance follows naturally from the concept of 'bodily autonomy' used by pro-choice campaigners, as well as tying in to the importance of consent generally.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is neither assault nor battery. You give short shrift to actual abuse by the misuse of the term.
Men.
"Men"? Seriously? You disappoint me.
I like and respect lilBuddha, but IMO he/she has a serious blind spot here. To compare male circumcision to FGM is taboo for many, even when you acknowledge how much worse some types of FGM are. Calling circumcision 'abuse' perhaps comes dangerously close to this.
Conversations about domestic violence have similar problems, and sexual assault is even worse. (According to multiple surveys, the number of guys who've been raped by women is staggering. Society has almost no awareness of this.)
The idea that men ought to 'man up' and not complain runs very deep, and is enforced by both men and women.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
Vaccination is not mutilation.
You know, it would be really nice if you didn't declare me to be "mutilated".
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
The abuse of men is wrong and it should be addressed.
However, Men's Rights groups often use it as a smoke screen to avoid/refute the societal bias against women.
Circumcision=\= FGM. Full Stop.
Dose this mean there isn't any room for arguing against the practice? No.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
But male circumcision isn't a trivial operation. IMO it can legitimately be compared to some of the less severe forms of FGM, at least in terms of the pain of the procedure. Saying it's like an ear-piercing is badly off.
Seriously, how the hell would you know this?
In any case I don't see that pain is even a legitimate criterion. Lots of medical things are painful. My dentist is painful. Turns out that her cleaning my teeth is MORE painful than giving me a filling.
Circumcision was done in the past on infant boys without proper anesthesia, based on the idea that the newborn nervous system was not developed enough to register pain. It isn't done these days medically without anesthesia because that idea wasn't correct. But it is surgery. It isn't comparable to dental work nor female genital mutilation.
It isn't usually medically necessary. It is more often a religious requirement.
That circumcision might lessen chances of HIV and other diseases is not proven satisfactorily to my reading of the literature. And even if it was, to circumcise conjecturally because an infant might grow up to have unprotected sex and acquire a disease isn't compelling enough for medical associations around to support doing it to everyone. We don't see many adult or adolescent males opting to have this done. Although some medical associations have come out to support it more based on future disease-catching possibilities but they also attach their wish to have insurance or gov't health schemes cover it, which makes me suspicious that this is also self-serving.
[tangent]
I'm reminded of my grandmother-in-law's 1912 story of being lined up in a hallway with other children so a travelling physician could take all the children's tonsils out. Because they were bound to become infected at some point. That might be a better comparison. She ended up with a complication: her epiglottis was also removed, thus for the rest of her 93 years she had an exposed trachea (windpipe) when swallowing, and had be awfully careful not to choke. A rare complication apparently.
It is much more difficult today to get a tonsillectomy; you have to show actual infection on a frequent basis and have to have not responded to other treatments, and understand that even taking them out may not solve anything.
Which sounds quite a bit more similar to circumcision than having teeth cleaned or FGM in terms of presumed medical benefits and level of medical procedure. The healing is faster for tonsils.
[/tangent]
[ 06. February 2017, 22:30: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
No prophet, I generally agree with you.
The sober question, the one where people don't throw around emotive language, is a cost/benefit analysis that asks:
1. What benefit does it bring?
2. What harm does it cause?
The medical opinion on benefits does seem to have shifted considerably over the years. I personally think there is some reasonable evidence about disease transmission, but I'll readily acknowledge that some of the benefits that were perceived are no longer accepted.
The bit where I think a lot of rot flies about is the claimed harm. I don't think there's much evidence at all that circumcision impairs sexual function or pleasure, just some men who claim their sex lives would've been so much better if they hadnt been "mutilated". This is the big difference to female procedures, where I think there is far more evidence of ongoing problems.
Where that leaves me is acknowledging that circumcision might not be such a great idea but with no desire to go around banning it.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Meconopsis
Apprentice
# 18146
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Posted
I actually have a definite opinion on this, based on my experience: I am female & worked in a newborn nursery in a hospital where almost 100% of the baby boys were circumcised. It was a Jewish hospital in an African-American & poor neighborhood in a major U.S. city.
There were many things about the practice that seemed wrong to me, but primarily was the glib assertion that the babies felt no pain. It was very clear to me that they did feel pain & fear. It was really quite brutal to watch. The newborn babies were strapped on a "circumcision board" in a brightly lit room, their genitals swabbed with cold Betadine, and they were cut. Who knows what they felt, physically? But based on this, I decided if I ever had a boy, he would not be circumcised as a matter of course.
Posts: 31 | Registered: Jun 2014
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The bit where I think a lot of rot flies about is the claimed harm.
Indeed. The "rot" is when people claim infants can't feel pain.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The bit where I think a lot of rot flies about is the claimed harm.
Indeed. The "rot" is when people claim infants can't feel pain.
Something I never claimed, and I'm not sure anyone else on the thread has claimed it.
And again, the idea that pain is an argument against a procedure is nonsense. It's merely an argument for pain relief during a procedure.
It was perfectly clear I was talking about the claimed harm as a result of the procedure, not pain during the procedure. If you want to address that instead of, yet again, shifting to a different point, I'm all ears.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
The bit where I think a lot of rot flies about is the claimed harm.
Indeed. The "rot" is when people claim infants can't feel pain.
Something I never claimed, and I'm not sure anyone else on the thread has claimed it.
And again, the idea that pain is an argument against a procedure is nonsense. It's merely an argument for pain relief during a procedure.
It was perfectly clear I was talking about the claimed harm as a result of the procedure, not pain during the procedure. If you want to address that instead of, yet again, shifting to a different point, I'm all ears.
Well, increased risk of death, infection, and destruction of penis compared to not doing it at all. Risk of great harm, for absolutely no gain.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Those are extreme and rare risks for properly done procedures. That is scare mongering language.
That it is unnecessary is the reason not to do it, don't need any crazy rhetoric.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Are there any men onboard who actually feel aggrieved by their "status"?
I'm not sure how much difference it makes -
I was just interested in the disjunct between almost completely abstract civil liberties/religious requirements/child abuse/mutilation tone of the thread and the passion and energy (for the issue) expressed in the posts themselves.
I thought "Why are there no posts by men incensed by what was done to them?" So I thought I'd ask.
I also wondered what sort of response my question would get - would the site crash or would I wake up to zero reaction.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Those are extreme and rare risks for properly done procedures. That is scare mongering language.
That it is unnecessary is the reason not to do it, don't need any crazy rhetoric.
I was asked to produce arguments against it. When one is doing a cost/benefit analysis, one puts potential gains against potential harm. Therefore one lists potential harms, even if lilBuddha thinks they're extremely rare. It is neither "scaremongering" nor "crazy" to do so. It's part of how you decide whether or not to do some undertaking. You weigh the risks and the benefits. There are no benefits to circumcision. These are the risks. I don't see what your problem is.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Meconopsis:
I actually have a definite opinion on this, based on my experience: I am female & worked in a newborn nursery in a hospital where almost 100% of the baby boys were circumcised. ... But based on this, I decided if I ever had a boy, he would not be circumcised as a matter of course.
I'm really glad you wrote.
I had heard this about the wholesale hospital circumcisions.
I think the environment you describe and all of the brit [circumcision ceremonies] at which I have been a guest must be incredibly stressful for a newborn. A hundred or more people milling around, being taken away from his mother and exposed to be either buckled into the chair or held legs akimbo by an elderly male relative he has no experience of...no wonder the baby boy cries or screams. Not to mention the shouts that go up once the job is done and his name announced.
As to the pain I can only say that our sons barely squeaked. We were at home. It was done on the kitchen table covered with a nice cloth and a wee vase of flowers in the corner. Also present were: us, the mohel [ritual circumciser] and our kibbutz Head Baby Nurse.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Response to mousethief:
My problem is the use of language like abuse and assault.
Also, assessing risk isn't simply listing the potential risks, but also the probability of their occurrence.
[ 07. February 2017, 05:03: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Response to mousethief:
My problem is the use of language like abuse and assault.
Also, assessing risk isn't simply listing the potential risks, but also the probability of their occurrence.
Yes but when there are risks, however rare, and no benefits, then there is absolutely no reason to do something and plenty good reason not to. I don't think I used abuse or assault in the posts you are responding to. I was responding to orfeo's call for a list of claimed harm resulting from the procedure. Any risk, however small, set against zero benefits, is too large. It is one thing to risk death to fight a cancer in your body, or replace a malfunctioning heart valve, or even a bum knee. But to risk death, serious infection, or maiming for absolutely no benefit whatsoever? Why would any person do that to their child?
(This does not refer to persons for whom it is a religious duty; that is of benefit to them, however people outside their religions may feel about it.)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
When I was born my parents did not intend to circumcise me. However, I developed a severe urinary tract infection and the doctor advised my parents that I needed to be circumcised.
There are several benefits to circumcision. One is able to keep the head (glans) cleaner. It can prevent urinary tract infections. Circumcised men are less susceptible to sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV. Though rare, circumcised are less likely to develop penile cancer. The female partners of circumcised men are less likely to get cervical cancer as well.
It also prevents Phimosis: This condition occurs when the foreskin cannot be retracted (pulled back) behind the head (glans) of the penis.
Still, the decision to circumcise or not should be left to the parents of the infant boy. With proper training, many of these problems can be avoided, I grant. However, just how sure can one be that the boy will continue to perform proper penile hygiene as he matures?
If parents should decide to circumcise, it is recommended it be done with an anesthetic as well.
Sometimes, as in my case, it is a necessary evil. Ultimately we decided to have all three of my boys circumcised because of the fear we had that they may have developed one or more of the complications I listed above.
[ 07. February 2017, 05:22: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Galilit, glad it was a wee vase of flowers.
Gramps49 is on the path (even if I'm not sure about all the health references he makes) - here and in the US , the argument for circumcision was cleanliness. I can remember catching tube trains in London in the early 60s. Much of the time I'd say that we were the only people in the carriage who had showered that morning. You'd wonder about penile cleanliness.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
My grandson had to be circumcised at the age of 6 due to medical problems and the whole event was traumatic for him and for his parents. His mother (who is a nurse)commented that she regrets not having him circumcised as a baby rather than have him undergo something so difficult at age 6.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Presumably, one reason for doing it to babies is the belief that it doesn't hurt them as much, and isn't emotionally traumatic. Well, men don't seem to remember it. That attitude to babies still freaks me out. I guess that some four year olds would shout the house down, and would feel angry and betrayed?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I guess that some four year olds would shout the house down, and would feel angry and betrayed?
True, but cultural and family expectations would likely affect a child's response. If your older brother and cousins were circumcised, and everyone is making a fuss of you and there's cake afterwards, it'd probably make a difference.
In Islam, boys are circumcised at a wide range of ages, but apparently seven is typical.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
I think the point being missed here is that it is not usually a decision about an individual by his parents. It is part of a larger *community practice* based on religious custom or health policy (as it was or is currently understood in any particular country).
Now, do you as a parent want your son to be laughed at, pointed out as an exception or even just commented upon from birth (or at most 3 years old once he gets into pre-school educational frameworks) till the end of his (hopefully long and healthy) life?
Do you as a parent want to have to explain or defend your decision aginst your extended family, friends and community as my daughter did when she visited "home" with her 18 month old (uncircumcised) son?
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
I think the point being missed here is that it is not usually a decision about an individual by his parents. It is part of a larger *community practice* based on religious custom or health policy (as it was or is currently understood in any particular country).
Now, do you as a parent want your son to be laughed at, pointed out as an exception or even just commented upon from birth (or at most 3 years old once he gets into pre-school educational frameworks) till the end of his (hopefully long and healthy) life?
Do you as a parent want to have to explain or defend your decision aginst your extended family, friends and community as my daughter did when she visited "home" with her 18 month old (uncircumcised) son?
No, and the solution to that is for people not to be fucking arseholes and mind their own business. Not for me to cut the end of my sons' cocks off. Were I in that situation, anyone criticising me would get the rough end of my tongue, and anyone laughing at them would get a kick up the arse - possibly literally.
[ 07. February 2017, 11:17: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Good luck to you with "people", then...
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Good luck to you with "people", then...
Children and teenagers in particular.
And in answer to your earlier question, no, I've never felt the least bit aggrieved. Pretty much the opposite, frankly. Others' mileage may vary, of course.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Are there any men onboard who actually feel aggrieved by their "status"?
The very thought of it makes my landing gear retract into my fuselage.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I will repeat what I have said above: in the absence of a valid medical reason for doing so, it is unacceptable to take a knife to your child who has no say in the matter. End of.
(And I have given some "cultural" background in my earlier posts).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
No, and the solution to that is for people not to be fucking arseholes and mind their own business. Not for me to cut the end of my sons' cocks off.
In the UK or the US, sure that's feasible, albeit sometimes awkward. But circumcision is part of group and religious identity, and in some cultures you're at a major disadvantage in life without it. You can get the shit kicked out of you for daring to complain, even after losing your penis.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
No, and the solution to that is for people not to be fucking arseholes and mind their own business. Not for me to cut the end of my sons' cocks off.
In the UK or the US, sure that's feasible, albeit sometimes awkward. But circumcision is part of group and religious identity, and in some cultures you're at a major disadvantage in life without it. You can get the shit kicked out of you for daring to complain, even after losing your penis.
That's what I like to see, group tyranny and blackmail. Add a soupçon of religious intimidation, what a glorious hymn to the Enlightenment!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I guess that some four year olds would shout the house down, and would feel angry and betrayed?
True, but cultural and family expectations would likely affect a child's response. If your older brother and cousins were circumcised, and everyone is making a fuss of you and there's cake afterwards, it'd probably make a difference.
In Islam, boys are circumcised at a wide range of ages, but apparently seven is typical.
My late father, a Bangladeshi Muslim, was circumcised at the age of 10 or thereabouts without anaesthetic.
He remembered it hurting. Oh yes.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Good luck to you with "people", then...
Yeah, I generally find them pretty unfathomable. Fortunately I don't have family and friends who think it's their job to tell me how to live my life, and I'm happy to keep it that way. I don't need arseholes in my life.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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