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Source: (consider it) Thread: Is circumcision abuse?
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Good luck to you with "people", then...

Children and teenagers in particular.
Yeah, they're pretty good at being arseholes. But the solution to bullying (because this is what you and Galilit are describing) is not to do what the bullies want. It's to defy the bastards. Wasted too many years of my life trying, and failing, to make myself acceptable to the self-appointed guardians of conformity and normality.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
No, and the solution to that is for people not to be fucking arseholes and mind their own business. Not for me to cut the end of my sons' cocks off.

In the UK or the US, sure that's feasible, albeit sometimes awkward. But circumcision is part of group and religious identity, and in some cultures you're at a major disadvantage in life without it. You can get the shit kicked out of you for daring to complain, even after losing your penis.
That's what I like to see, group tyranny and blackmail. Add a soupçon of religious intimidation, what a glorious hymn to the Enlightenment!
I'm sure that there are plenty of places where you'll get the same treatment for refusing to submit your daughter to FGM, and all manner of other obnoxious practices, but we don't sit back and say "Oh that's all right then, folk should do it to be accepted by your community."

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

(This does not refer to persons for whom it is a religious duty; that is of benefit to them, however people outside their religions may feel about it.)

But why? We excuse this in objectively harmful procedures, so why in circumcision?
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Not for me to cut the end of my sons' cocks off.

Oh, for fuck's sake. It isn't the end of your cock. It is the vestigial remains of a penis sheath the purpose of which is to protect the penis when not in use.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Look, whether you consider it part of the cock or not is beside the bleedin' point*. The point is that performing an unnecessary surgical procedure to keep interfering twats happy is utterly bonkers.

*See what I did there?

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Look, whether you consider it part of the cock or not is beside the bleedin' point*.

Well, no, it isn't. It is the very reason men, mostly uncut, raise their appendages** in anger.

quote:
The point is that performing an unnecessary surgical procedure to keep interfering twats happy is utterly bonkers.

Yes it is. But the underlying problem is sociological.

quote:

*See what I did there?

**right back at you

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Hiro's Leap

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# 12470

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quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
My late father, a Bangladeshi Muslim, was circumcised at the age of 10 or thereabouts without anaesthetic.

He remembered it hurting. Oh yes.

I have no idea how to respond to this. Mostly [Frown]
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anoesis
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# 14189

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I've been wondering whether or not I should post here, because I've no idea whether me offering my perspective will have the slightest effect on anything - or whether it's even appropriate, me being, y'know, a girl and all. (And it verges on the TMI). But here goes:

My husband is circumcised. As near as I can tell, the reason for this is that his father is, and his father was before him, and so on. It certainly isn't a cultural/religious thing. They were Presbyterians down the line, I believe. Being cut is quite unusual in NZ, as far as I am aware. However, he proclaims himself personally unbothered by it, and says that no-one ever made any comment about it, growing up. So that's the background. As I was brought up very much GLE, there was no shagging around, and his is the only penis I have had anything to do with. Now, from my sample size of one, I would have to say that it feels fine, works fine, and looks fine (etc), and that we have had some really great times together. I realise it is not exactly au naturel, but I would hesitate to call it mutilated.

Part two: When I was pregnant for the first time, my husband confided to me one evening a desire to produce only daughters. I was a little taken aback, because frankly what I would have liked was a house full of sons with nary a daughter in sight. Anyway, we opted to wait until full-time to know the score, as it were, that time, and out popped a daughter. So he was happy. Now my tough old Dad was mega-soppy about his daughters so I thought it was that same kind of thing, but when we found out we were having a boy the second time, he went around all thoughtful for a couple of weeks and then abruptly announced to me, 'I don't think we should have him circumcised', to which I said, 'ok, righto'. But to be honest, at that point, if he had said the exact opposite I would also have said, 'ok, righto'. I had no strong feelings either way and he was the possessor of a penis, so it seemed that [in this particular very specific case], he was the right person to make the decision. However: When my son was actually born, if anyone had tried to take him away from me and chop a bit of him off, even just a little flap of skin, I would have resisted mightily, I can tell you. And not because it might have hurt. He's been vaccinated, after all. No, more because, to me, he was, and is, completely and utterly perfect just exactly the way he is. He does not require modification, and cannot be improved upon by alteration.

So I don't know where that leaves me, really. Compromised, somehow. With a foot in both camps. Realising that this is a complicated phenomenon. Certainly not wishing to be shrieking at anyone for either their status, or their choices, in one direction or another. Peace, all.

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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Siegfried
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# 29

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Most recent statement from the American Academy of Pediatrics (2012) states that the benefits outweigh the risks, but stresses effective pain management and proper sterile practices must be in place.
I can't find it now, but the CDC's POV is that in areas with high levels of heterosexual HIV transmission, all males should be circumcised, regardless of age.

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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I will repeat what I have said above: in the absence of a valid medical reason for doing so, it is unacceptable to take a knife to your child who has no say in the matter. End of.

(And I have given some "cultural" background in my earlier posts).

Penile cleanliness seems to me to be a pretty valid medical reason. Not necessarily conclusive, but valid.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Most recent statement from the American Academy of Pediatrics (2012) states that the benefits outweigh the risks, but stresses effective pain management and proper sterile practices must be in place.
I can't find it now, but the CDC's POV is that in areas with high levels of heterosexual HIV transmission, all males should be circumcised, regardless of age.

The Canadian Pediatric Society disagrees.

I don't think an "appeal to an authority" of any kind is going to help.

And we really don't know if sex is more enjoyable with or without a foreskin, because the definitive study hasn't been done and probably can't be: double blind, men with and without foreskins have sex and rate the experience, those with foreskins get them cut off, those without have them attached, and they have sex again. And neither group knows if they have a foreskin or not while the study is under way.

People can do what they want to their kids, to a point, including this one I suppose, but I am glad that our publicly funded health insurance won't pay for it.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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I don't think a double blind study is necessary.
There does not seem to be any problem with sexual pleasure linked to either being "whole" or cut.
There is a large enough sample size for both to have all the info needed.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

(This does not refer to persons for whom it is a religious duty; that is of benefit to them, however people outside their religions may feel about it.)

But why? We excuse this in objectively harmful procedures, so why in circumcision?

Should have read we do not excuse this in objectively harmful procedures, so why in circumcision?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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That's not an experimental model. It is merely a collection of information that doesn't answer the question of whether sexual pleasure is enhanced by a foreskin or not. It merely says that sex is fun either way.

Analogy: Supper features a wonder meal with fine flavours enjoyed by all. There's a garnish on top when served which makes it look nice, but we take the garnish off and put it to the side.

Analogy 2: Supper features the same wonderful meal, and the garnish is very tasty and adds another level of enjoyment to the meal. The meal is fine without, but has another special flavour experience with it.

We don't know which one fits. Maybe it doesn't matter, maybe it does.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I will repeat what I have said above: in the absence of a valid medical reason for doing so, it is unacceptable to take a knife to your child who has no say in the matter. End of.

(And I have given some "cultural" background in my earlier posts).

Penile cleanliness seems to me to be a pretty valid medical reason. Not necessarily conclusive, but valid.
And is super easy to achieve, even with a foreskin, using soap and water.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Gee D
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# 13815

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Indeed it is easy, as is a daily shower - but as I said before, not everyone on a London Tube seems to have heard of that even these days, let alone the early 60s.

I don't know the arguments in support of the health factors other posters have referred to.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Nick Tamen

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# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Good luck to you with "people", then...

Children and teenagers in particular.
Yeah, they're pretty good at being arseholes. But the solution to bullying (because this is what you and Galilit are describing) is not to do what the bullies want. It's to defy the bastards.
Fair enough. And probably a better plan than "a kick up the arse." [Biased]

Though I'd say a little more than bullying is being described. Self-image/self-perception is too, as well as typical adolescent concern about not being different. But there are other ways to deal with those things, too, of course.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Galilit
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# 16470

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quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
I've been wondering whether or not I should post here, because I've no idea whether me offering my perspective will have the slightest effect on anything - or whether it's even appropriate, me being, y'know, a girl and all. (And it verges on the TMI). But here goes:

m However: When my son was actually born, if anyone had tried to take him away from me and chop a bit of him off, even just a little flap of skin, I would have resisted mightily, I can tell you. And not because it might have hurt. He's been vaccinated, after all. No, more because, to me, he was, and is, completely and utterly perfect just exactly the way he is. He does not require modification, and cannot be improved upon by alteration.




[ 08. February 2017, 03:21: Message edited by: Galilit ]

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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Galilit
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# 16470

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As I said in a PM to Meconopsis, the suffering of women (mothers) has been completely ignored on this thread. I have been to tons of ceremonies (in Jewish Israel) and have seen women in floods of tears. You're bleeding, your hormones have yet to rebalance, your entire circle of family, friends and community is milling around ...and all you want to do is sit quietly and enjoy your perfect miracle ... and then men come and take him away to be cut. Completely understandable!

There is a tiny number of refusals (they make the news every few years.
Personally I know only one woman who said "NO!" She was no feminist and had no ideological axe to grind - she just said "No". She was pulled into line by the Jewish concept of "Shlom Bayit" [Peace in the Household]. Which is invoked to put an immediate stop to any individual act that "threatens the stabilty" of a family (extended family). Crudely put it means: if your husband, parents or in laws don't like it you have to stop it. So she did.

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
No, more because, to me, he was, and is, completely and utterly perfect just exactly the way he is. He does not require modification, and cannot be improved upon by alteration.

My nephew had a malformed foreskin that it was determined better removed. He is wonderful as he is.
Had his foreskin remained intact, he would have been wonderful that way as well.
It isn't that I do not understand what you are saying, I do. But I bring this up because it touches on the way we perceive children and the way this affects them. They are not perfect, they cannot be. But we should love them regardless.
Not at all implying that this would not be the case with you and your son.
But it touches on this subject in how circumcision is perceived.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Dennis the Menace
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# 11833

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Indeed it is easy, as is a daily shower - but as I said before, not everyone on a London Tube seems to have heard of that even these days, let alone the early 60s.

I don't know the arguments in support of the health factors other posters have referred to.

Without going into details,even here is Oz the unclean uncut can be quite a put off. Happened to me once (cut) hooked up with an uncut and the odour was revolting!! Enough said!!

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Pangolin Guerre
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# 18686

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As to Galilit's comment... A gentile friend of mine married a Jewish woman. She insisted that the children be raised Jewish. He was fine with that. I recall that at the Bris she was almost inconsolable, yet had been the moving spirit behind it. This is not a criticism, just an observation of how highly conflicted an individual can be on the question.
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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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There is an advantage to circumcision that at least you never have to know the pain of a scratch on the end of the foreskin. A very special kind of pain.

I actually get both sides of the argument here. Part of my reasoning for starting this (again, it was probably me last time) is that I am writing a book that (not by deliberate intention) has a character who is going to be forced into a circumcision to "save the world" (when it comes out you can all read it). His problems with this forced circumcision have challenged me, because he quite definitely sees it as abuse (and in this case, it is)*.

But the only real difference is that he is old enough to question.

I do understand the parental consent issue. One of my children had his legs plastered from 3 days old. As well as a whole lot of other things we did on his behalf that were not pleasant. But the aim and purpose was good - it means he can now walk.

So yes, as parents we make decisions for our children on health grounds. Never a question on that. But (mostly) circumcision is not a health issue. It is a cultural issue.

* It is a whole lot funnier than this sounds. In fact, it has had my writers group in fits.

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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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toadstrike
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# 18244

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quote:
... Part of my reasoning for starting this (again, it was probably me last time) is that I am writing a book that (not by deliberate intention) has a character who is going to be forced into a circumcision to "save the world" (when it comes out you can all read it).
I look forward to reading this book with some interest.
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Galilit
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# 16470

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quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
As to Galilit's comment... an observation of how highly conflicted an individual can be on the question.

My daughter went so far as to convert to Judaism, then had a baby with a non-Jewish man, in a country where (these days) boys are not circumcised, came "home" to visit and had huge arguments with her woman-friends when they saw her son was uncircumcised and was quite upset by that.

I explained to her when it is a 99.999% *community practice" it will never be just "her business" and what did she expect? That said to make her son different from all the other boys is not an option either (in my opinion). I acted accordingly with our sons (by having them circumcised) and she did with hers (by not)

With all due respect to the theoretical arguments above (abuse, etc), you are still putting your little boy in a very difficult situation if you are living somewhere where there is a huge majority one way or the other.

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Do you know, I'm not entirely sure anyone else would know whether my boys have been snipped or not. Do people really spend time looking at each others' knobs?

Perhaps I'm really a Vulcan or something, but I don't understand this human pre-occupation with making sure other people are and do the same as you.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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The fact that people have 'huge arguments' about circumcision is baffling. It's like the old joke about bald men arguing over a comb, except I suppose a few of them have wisps of hair, traitors!

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no path

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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My 12 year old eldest son has long hair. That's very unusual in the community; it's a given that boys have their hair cut short.

If someone gave him hassle over it, though, my response wouldn't be "well what do you expect?" - it'd be "it's nothing to do with them. Be yourself. Ignore the conformist herd."

If family friends started pressurising me to have it cut short, I'd seriously reconsider whether they were actually friends at all. Friends don't try to run friends' lives. Not the sort of friends I value, anyway.

But, as I say, perhaps I'm not human after all. It would explain a lot if I turned out to come from Alpha Centauri.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Galilit
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# 16470

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Do you know, I'm not entirely sure anyone else would know whether my boys have been snipped or not.

As to boys: daycare and pre-school environments, schools with gyms and swimming pools.

As to men ... you may indeed be right. I did ask my Minister once (in connection with something in one of the Epistles about the early Christians, I hasten to add) and he reckoned men did not look at one another in common or garden urination situations (and he was gay!)

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Well, conformism is undoubtedly a factor in human society. But I hope that I helped my son to think it through, and not just give way to the crowd. If all the local Goths are wearing eyeliner, it doesn't mean that you have to. Sure, they may give you gyp, but this is one of the tests in life, my son, to be yourself, when all around are being clones.

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no path

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Do you know, I'm not entirely sure anyone else would know whether my boys have been snipped or not.

As to boys: daycare and pre-school environments,
If staff in these environments are giving trouble over this it's a failure of their professionalism.


quote:
schools with gyms and swimming pools.

Then it becomes a bullying issue and should be stamped on appropriately. If the teachers tacitly support it having the same prejudices themselves, then it's a failure of professionalism again.

quote:
As to men ... you may indeed be right. I did ask my Minister once (in connection with something in one of the Epistles about the early Christians, I hasten to add) and he reckoned men did not look at one another in common or garden urination situations (and he was gay!)
Or any other situations, for that matter.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17450 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Do you know, I'm not entirely sure anyone else would know whether my boys have been snipped or not. Do people really spend time looking at each others' knobs?

So here is an exhaustive list of knobs that I can remember seeing, in (roughly) reverse order of most recent viewing.

1. Mine, of course.
2. My sons', plus those of other small boys whose nappies I have changed.
3. Aged 9 or 10, changing after swimming at school: boy A bet boy B that he wouldn't lick boy C's dick, so boy C sat down and held it out. (In case you're wondering, nobody thought that this was about sex. It was a thing in the category of disgusting things small boys dare each other to do.)
4. My brother's, in the bath, when we were sufficiently small to share a bath.

All those people had foreskins.

There's a much larger set of people where I have noticed that they had one: every now and then you catch a glimpse of a penis whilst standing at a urinal, or you see one in a changing room at the gym or swimming pool, in communal showers at school and so on. I could promise that each of those people had a penis: if one of them had had a vulva, or a cheese-and-pickle sandwich, or something, then I would have noticed something unusual, but I wasn't looking closely enough to determine whether the penis had a foreskin.

I would hesitate to offer myself as an example of normalcy, but I think in this case I'm not that unusual.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

But, as I say, perhaps I'm not human after all. It would explain a lot if I turned out to come from Alpha Centauri.

Dude. I am unequivocally, objectively odd. But I am also an observer of the normals and people check each other out. Women most certainly do and I am informed men do as well, though they are reluctant to share this. And children notice everything.

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If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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But if men are reluctant to admit to it, they're hardly going to out themselves by saying "Ewww! Fred has/n't got a foreskin! Look everyone!"

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Hiro's Leap

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At my school boys definitely checked each other out a bit. It wasn't blatant, probably due to homophobia, but they joked if someone was particularly hung (or not).
Posts: 3408 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Do you know, I'm not entirely sure anyone else would know whether my boys have been snipped or not. Do people really spend time looking at each others' knobs?

I had to shower in PE (Physical Education) 5 days a week, 180 days a year, for 5 years. It was hard NOT to see. Everybody knew the disposition of everybody else's wangdanger. I was the only unsnipped one in that entire time.

quote:
Perhaps I'm really a Vulcan or something, but I don't understand this human pre-occupation with making sure other people are and do the same as you.
This of course is the cause of shunning, much bullying, social outcasting, and not a few wars. Understand it or not, it's very much there.

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Do you know, I'm not entirely sure anyone else would know whether my boys have been snipped or not.

As to boys: daycare and pre-school environments,
If staff in these environments are giving trouble over this it's a failure of their professionalism.
You've changed the conversation here from "how would they know?" to "if staff ... are giving trouble." Galalit wasn't answering the second question because you hadn't asked it yet.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62953 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Fair enough, but my fundamental point is really the "it's none of anyone else's business and the way to resolve it isn't to comply, but to defy and challenge."

I have this deepseated loathing of enforced conformity.

I'm surprised at all the wanger comparisons. It's just not my experience.

[ 08. February 2017, 15:19: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17450 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Fair enough, but my fundamental point is really the "it's none of anyone else's business and the way to resolve it isn't to comply, but to defy and challenge."

I have this deepseated loathing of enforced conformity.

Well yes, but no. I was not forced to go and get lopped in order to conform. So the conformity is a weird at-one-remove sort of conformity -- the parents "conforming" so their sons will "conform." Conformity-by-proxy.

quote:
I'm surprised at all the wanger comparisons. It's just not my experience.
Perhaps a pond thing?

[ 08. February 2017, 15:51: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62953 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Schroedinger's cat

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Maybe a pond thing, but penile comparisons are not common here among adults. Even when I was young, it wasn't at all common. Well, maybe with good friends, as part of growing up, but that is not a good sample.

I can't remember noticing whether anyone had or lacked a foreskin. I think almost all had one, but the sample size is very small.

I don't think social issues would have made a big difference. At the same time, having something "different" was a problem. Didn't I know that.

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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

Posts: 18508 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pangolin Guerre
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I grew up in a community that had a relatively high proportion of children who were immigrants or children of immigrants (Italians, Poles, Ukrainians, Finns, etc.), so a fair number of us, a large minority, were uncircumcised, so it wasn't seen as unusual. This probably is the root of my casual ambivalence. (I'm circumcised, but probably wouldn't have my son circumcised... I would hope that he would emulate me in more important ways.)

Tangentially on the whole checking-out question, of course we did. Natural curiosity. In my local 'culture', it was expected to take a shower after gym class. One of my best friends grew up in a much more anglo community, in which the post-gym shower was viewed with (homophobic) suspicion. Not only little opportunity to contrast and compare, but it must have made for some pretty ripe classrooms.

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