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Source: (consider it) Thread: John Smythe, Justin Welby and Evangelicalism
Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Llinking Iwerne to the college chapel/empire brigade is not my understanding at all. Rather, all the Iwerne guys I knew were incredibly negative about the institutional Christianity they experienced at school, hence the strong support for the very different type of Christianity they got at camp.

Definitely true of my University CU and the Chaplaincy, too (So'ton 1971-4). If you had a foot in both camps (and I used to go to AngSoc for a bit), you were in danger of being considered seriously "unsound".

[ 08. February 2017, 08:30: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
... Now, it's revealed, like some sinister plot, that the CofE was grooming the right sort of chaps to take over the nation. There are still key players from those days in significant positions - may not be wrong but is it healthy? It smacks of all that some of find repulsive in class driven attitudes. The whole ethos paints a picture of what we'd call grooming today. ...

Mark, I don't think that's a fair analysis. This organisation was not an arm of the CofE. It was more like a religious equivalent of entryism, what the Labour Party is going on about when leaders raise the accusation of Sectarianism.

The rather amorphous way the CofE works tends to generate entities committed to seeking to mould the CofE, take it over, convert it to their way of thinking, be it what was used to be called the Modern Churchman's Union, or the Society of Our Lady of Walsingham.

It also looks, from the links that others have posted, that he and his family are no longer Anglicans.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Pete Ward's view (in the link I posted above) is unequivocal: "Bash camps were thus not just a means of bringing public school boys to Christ: they were also a training ground for the future leaders of the Church of England". He also avers that the training given was "far in advance" of anything being offered in the CofE's training colleges at the time (1930s).

Pete was the ABC's Adviser on Youth Ministry at the time he wrote that! In his view, the influence of the Bash camps on he CofE cannot be over-estimated.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

Pete was the ABC's Adviser on Youth Ministry at the time he wrote that! In his view, the influence of the Bash camps on he CofE cannot be over-estimated.

And in some sense of course he was right; the ABC (as I understand it) and at least one bishop were influenced by the camps.

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mr cheesy
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According to this wikipedia page the list of participants includes Nicky Gumbel, John Stott, Dudley-Smith, David Watson and others.

I'd say the impact on the Anglican church, even if this is a complete list (which is obviously isn't) is by necessity large.

I also note what the wikipedia page says about the links to Alpha and HTB.

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Ethne Alba
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Indeed...a very large number of evangelical ministers came to what they came to now as a real and personal faith through the camps in question.

I wonder...when did it all start to go wrong?

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Ethne Alba
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And....

In answer to a question posted upthread regarding the parents opinion on whether or not the police should have been involved at the time:

Our society and laws have changed.
NOW.....there would be no question, it would Have to be investigated and rightly so.
THEN....then was another world; a darker one and a place where children and young people repressed their emotions and were praised for so doing. The laws and the implementation of even the ones we had...were so different then

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
Indeed...a very large number of evangelical ministers came to what they came to now as a real and personal faith through the camps in question.

I wonder...when did it all start to go wrong?

It sounds utterly wrong from a starting position - the idea of secretly recuiting the "right sort" of boys from public school in order to run the Anglican church seems balmy.

The mind boggles as to what exactly all these people took from this class-ridden entitlement culture and what the residual effect is on Anglicanism.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

I'd say the impact on the Anglican church, even if this is a complete list (which is obviously isn't) is by necessity large.

Of course, and you missed out Dick Lucas, who has been hugely influential on the teaching *style* of ministers in conevo circles, either directly via Cornhill/Proctrust or via influences direct or otherwise on Keswick/Word Alive/Oak Hill and so on.

As an aside - which probably belongs more in the other thread, there is a certain set of conevo ministers who display a large amount of congruence in terms of their sentence structure, method of vocal delivery and so on.

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quetzalcoatl
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Christian sado-masochism - well, who would have thought it.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

Pete was the ABC's Adviser on Youth Ministry at the time he wrote that! In his view, the influence of the Bash camps on he CofE cannot be over-estimated.

And in some sense of course he was right; the ABC (as I understand it) and at least one bishop were influenced by the camps.
Sure, but Pete was adviser to Carey (I think), certainly not Welby.
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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
As an aside - which probably belongs more in the other thread, there is a certain set of conevo ministers who display a large amount of congruence in terms of their sentence structure, method of vocal delivery and so on.

Happens in other places too - there were quite a few Reformed people who deliberately imitated Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones (possibly not with the Welsh accent, but certainly in his methodology of minutely dissecting and expounding a Bible passage).
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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It sounds utterly wrong from a starting position - the idea of secretly recruiting the "right sort" of boys from public school in order to run the Anglican church seems balmy.

The mind boggles as to what exactly all these people took from this class-ridden entitlement culture and what the residual effect is on Anglicanism.

But this is what the CofE has always done. It's always chosen the 'right sort' of boys to run its churches, even before public schools were invented.

Things are changing now for pragmatic as well as virtuous reasons, I should think. There aren't enough public school boys around who want the job, and the lower classes have defected from the church in frightening numbers, so it makes sense to broaden things out.

A question suggests itself to me. As the CofE increases its number of clergy from more ordinary backgrounds is the influence of evangelicalism in the CofE likely to decrease? I ask this because these special church camps, clubs and a 'muscular Christian' ethos are presumably less likely to be a formative influence on young Anglicans who grow up outside of a certain milieu. And people who come to faith later in life are unlikely to have those experiences in their history at all.

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Baptist Trainfan
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On the other hand, it seems to be the Evangelical congregations which are "doing best", especially among young people. So they are likely to provide the majority of ordinands - whether their social background.
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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The lower classes have defected from the church in frightening numbers.

That just shows they can't be trusted - they're "letting the side down", I say! [Devil]
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Gamaliel
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Yes, of course the CofE has done that.

Any church does that.

The Orthodox Church gets its bishops from monasteries.

The Anglicans used to get theirs from the sons of the minor gentry and from the public schools.

That's changed.

I don't think the decline of the boys' camps will have a great deal of bearing on evangelicalism within the CofE. Evangelicalism is highly adaptable and can fit itself around changing circumstances with some agility.

Equally, although these camps were influential back in the day, evangelicalism within the CofE was never entirely dependent upon them. They were one aspect of one particular section of Anglican evangelicalism.

Today's Anglican evangelicalism is a somewhat different beast and has its own 'plausibility-structures' and axes. Those aren't influenced so readily from the old public schools system.

My guess would be that Anglican evangelicalism will continue to morph and fragment - with some heading through the New Wine and HTB axes towards something that is somewhat broader - and I think there are signs of that already.

The very Conservative Evangelical Anglicans of the Reform school will become a beleagured minority, bemoaning what they see as the glory days of yesteryear.

But then, I think certain forms of Anglo-Catholicism have already headed that way too ...

I suspect that evangelical Anglicanism has a way to go yet but will become increasingly less 'Anglican' in terms of outward form and style.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

Pete was the ABC's Adviser on Youth Ministry at the time he wrote that! In his view, the influence of the Bash camps on he CofE cannot be over-estimated.

And in some sense of course he was right; the ABC (as I understand it) and at least one bishop were influenced by the camps.
Sure, but Pete was adviser to Carey (I think), certainly not Welby.
Er.. Whether or not that guy was an adviser to Welby he seems to be right in his assessment of the influence of the Bash camps on Anglicanism. From what I read of Justin Welby, he was a dormitory leader on one of those camps. Am I wrong to understand that?

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mr cheesy
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I think the Mark Stibbe who is a victim mentioned in the news was previously vicar at St Andrews Chorlewood. Which maybe shows another connection to New Wine as well as HTB.

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arse

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Whether or not that guy was an adviser to Welby he seems to be right in his assessment of the influence of the Bash camps on Anglicanism. From what I read of Justin Welby, he was a dormitory leader on one of those camps. Am I wrong to understand that?

No, you are perfectly correct.
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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I suspect that evangelical Anglicanism has a way to go yet but will become increasingly less 'Anglican' in terms of outward form and style.

I worked closely with an Evangelical Vicar some years ago. He was neither "Reform" (didn't like it in fact) nor charismatic, but much more along the line of Michael Saward and the All Souls' crowd.

Above all, he saw himself as Anglican; which meant that, when he devised a more informal evening service model,it still included the essential required elements from the liturgy (ASB in those days). I suspect that many of the guys these days don't think like that: they are primarily Evangelicals.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
And....

In answer to a question posted upthread regarding the parents opinion on whether or not the police should have been involved at the time:

Our society and laws have changed.
NOW.....there would be no question, it would Have to be investigated and rightly so.
THEN....then was another world; a darker one and a place where children and young people repressed their emotions and were praised for so doing. The laws and the implementation of even the ones we had...were so different then

Having read the descriptions (and wishing for the existence of mind bleach) this goes well, well beyond what would have been considered even vaguely acceptable at the time. We're talking well beyond mediaeval.

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Eirenist
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Given that Justin Welby was a 'dormitory leader' at one time in one of these camps, is it fair for news reports consistently to describe Mr Smyth, the head of the Trust that ran them as 'a colleague of the Archbishop of Canterbury', implying some parity of status, indeed relationship, between them?

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Baptist Trainfan
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No, it's not. He was only about 19 at the time.

Goodness, I was doing similar things during my summer holidays from Uni. (Tent leader at Crusader camps, and Beach missions). No blame can be laid on Welby whatsoever - as I think the Press are now realising.

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Higgs Bosun
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
No, it's not. He was only about 19 at the time.

Goodness, I was doing similar things during my summer holidays from Uni. (Tent leader at Crusader camps, and Beach missions). No blame can be laid on Welby whatsoever - as I think the Press are now realising.

Indeed. One thing one should realise about the Iwerne model for camps is the high ratio of leaders ('Officers' at that time!) to campers. You might well have one leader for three campers. So, there were many dormitory leaders, who in no sense "running the camps" in the way that the senior leaders were.
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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by DaleMaily:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
a pretty big extrapolation from one, clearly extremely disturbed abuser.

I accept that in this case, but if it turns out that it is systemic (which the abuse scandal in the Catholic church can be labelled), at what point do you start investigating whether there is something in the underlying theology that has been twisted in some way?
Just rereading the thread, and noticed your post. I don't think you can. Well, I can't see how anyone could make meaningful connections between a particular theological strain and S/M practices; it would just be guesswork. I suppose if half your priests were being abusive, you would have to stop and think. Well, at least, stop.

There is an argument that aiming for the good impels one into the slime, but that is not particularly about Christianity. Freud has a very sarcastic passage, where he says that once Paul has adumbrated love between Christians, the inevitable consequence was war and torture. What a bloomin cynic. Also called the shadow, but pretty universal, I would guess.

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think the Mark Stibbe who is a victim mentioned in the news was previously vicar at St Andrews Chorlewood. Which maybe shows another connection to New Wine as well as HTB.

That's correct. He was also removed from ministry after a moral failure. What made the latter rather different from most cases of this kind is that he was heading up a group to support children in a home without Fathers.
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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
No, it's not. He was only about 19 at the time.

Goodness, I was doing similar things during my summer holidays from Uni. (Tent leader at Crusader camps, and Beach missions). No blame can be laid on Welby whatsoever - as I think the Press are now realising.

Indeed. One thing one should realise about the Iwerne model for camps is the high ratio of leaders ('Officers' at that time!) to campers. You might well have one leader for three campers. So, there were many dormitory leaders, who in no sense "running the camps" in the way that the senior leaders were.
But were presumably there to ensure that hands were kept firmly above the blankets (that is, that the term Bash Camp should not be interpreted in the wrong way, despite the project's avowed intent of raising up Bishops).
As an aside, if Wikipedia is to be believed, EJH Nash, who founded the whole shebang, went not to Eton or Winchester but to a place called Maidenhead College which sounds like about as minor a public school as you can possibly imagine and doubtless one from which boys would definitely not be invited to Iwerne. That seems to fit: it's always marginal people who are the most emphatic about things they identify with.

[ 08. February 2017, 19:41: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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I found this article. I can't vouch for it, but it's interesting.
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DaleMaily
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Just rereading the thread, and noticed your post. I don't think you can. Well, I can't see how anyone could make meaningful connections between a particular theological strain and S/M practices; it would just be guesswork.

I think that's possibly what Bishop Wilson was attempting to do, and as previously pointed out by others he does have a vested interest of sorts.

quote:
I suppose if half your priests were being abusive, you would have to stop and think. Well, at least, stop.
And now back to defending Wilson - he made the point that such a theology (and implied cult of leadership and/or authority as has also been mentioned elsewhere) could unwittingly blind others to what was going on. This is possibly where a connection can be made with the Catholic scandal in that the priests had so much authority and respect, a lot of which came from the assumption that they were "Godly men". Obviously theology is not likely to be the main cause, otherwise you wouldn't have Saville etc. but perhaps there is something in seeing it as being connected in some way (nothing happens in a vacuum etc.), just as certain theologies within Islam are directly attributed to kids being radicalised.

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Edith
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This is of interest

http://barristerblogger.com/2017/02/09/beating-posh-boys-jesus-john-smyth-fanatical-evangelicalism/

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by DaleMaily:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Just rereading the thread, and noticed your post. I don't think you can. Well, I can't see how anyone could make meaningful connections between a particular theological strain and S/M practices; it would just be guesswork.

I think that's possibly what Bishop Wilson was attempting to do, and as previously pointed out by others he does have a vested interest of sorts.

quote:
I suppose if half your priests were being abusive, you would have to stop and think. Well, at least, stop.
And now back to defending Wilson - he made the point that such a theology (and implied cult of leadership and/or authority as has also been mentioned elsewhere) could unwittingly blind others to what was going on. This is possibly where a connection can be made with the Catholic scandal in that the priests had so much authority and respect, a lot of which came from the assumption that they were "Godly men". Obviously theology is not likely to be the main cause, otherwise you wouldn't have Saville etc. but perhaps there is something in seeing it as being connected in some way (nothing happens in a vacuum etc.), just as certain theologies within Islam are directly attributed to kids being radicalised.

Well, yes, you can speculate, but it's difficult to turn this into any kind of causative link. If only Catholic priests were abusive, it might be possible, but most abuse is in the home, isn't it?

You could cite a perfect storm, including leadership fetishism, upper class cruelty (seen as character building), the dialectic of love and punishment in Christianity, and just general English weirdness around sex. It's certainly fun to thrown these things in the air, and watch where they land, but it's still guesswork. Well, guesses are OK.

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mr cheesy
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Has anyone here been birched or caned? I'm not sure I'm believing that it is enough to break the skin and bleed into the underpants (although I can totally believe it is a traumatic experience and leaves bruises and nasty grazes on the skin).

That barrister blog is really something. He seems to be very casual about mentioning that he was caned as if this was perfectly normal in the 1970s. Both of my parents were older and were never caned (of course, they were never at private school), capital punishment basically dying out in the school systems in which they grew up a generation before.

Mark Stibbe has quite a lot of baggage, I observe.

That's not to say that the beatings were imagined, just that some of these details seem like they might have been a tad exaggerated.

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arse

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Jolly Jape
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think the Mark Stibbe who is a victim mentioned in the news was previously vicar at St Andrews Chorlewood. Which maybe shows another connection to New Wine as well as HTB.

That's correct. He was also removed from ministry after a moral failure. What made the latter rather different from most cases of this kind is that he was heading up a group to support children in a home without Fathers.
Indeed Mark Stibbe, one time darling of New Wine, was one of the people that I had in mind when I posted above.

I'm not quite sure how to parse your post, EM, but I think it would be worth pointing out that MS's moral lapse was completely unconnected with his work with children, AFAIK. He was by no means my cup of tea, and I could never understand the "Thinking man's Charismatic" tag, but there was no suggestion illegality in his behaviour.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:


I'm not quite sure how to parse your post, EM, but I think it would be worth pointing out that MS's moral lapse was completely unconnected with his work with children, AFAIK. He was by no means my cup of tea, and I could never understand the "Thinking man's Charismatic" tag, but there was no suggestion illegality in his behaviour.

Ermm... I suspect the comment was less about illegality than the contradiction between being that kind of organisation and then, well, leaving his family.

It does seem a bit irrelevant in a way, but in another it doesn't seem very surprising that boys who went through these experiences had dysfunctional private lives whilst also seeking prominent leadership positions.

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arse

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Callan
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# 525

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:
Has anyone here been birched or caned? I'm not sure I'm believing that it is enough to break the skin and bleed into the underpants (although I can totally believe it is a traumatic experience and leaves bruises and nasty grazes on the skin).
Never happened to me - one of the benefits of a comprehensive school education - although it was rumoured that the Deputy Head kept one in reserve, in extremis.

But I can quite imagine that if one whacks long enough and hard enough there might be a certain amount of bloodshed. IME, if you hit a playground hard enough you can expect to bleed on your knees and hands. Tarmac or cane, a hard impact will draw blood.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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BroJames
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# 9636

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quote:
Originally posted by Edith:
This is of interest

http://barristerblogger.com/2017/02/09/beating-posh-boys-jesus-john-smyth-fanatical-evangelicalism/

Indeed. It is interesting that he is so positive about John Thorn - the headteacher to whom the report of John Smyth's activities was made, but feels that Winchester College as an institution has something to answer for. One of the reasons that safeguarding policies often make it duty to report suspected child abuse to the relevant authorities is that it has been recognised that a genuine desire to protect known victims of abusers was also allowing the abusers not only to avoid the consequences of their actions, but also to continue to abuse. (Whether there should be a legal duty to report continues to be debated.) Indeed, the recognition that further protection was needed even after successful prosecutions is what led to the establishing of the sex offenders register in 1997. I suspect that the decision of Winchester College and of the Iwerne Trust not to make matters more widely known would have looked entirely uncontroversial in 1982. Smyth had no formal standing within the school or the world of education - so I don't suppose the school notified any central body, and he had no formal standing within the church, so I'm not surprised that the Iwerne Trust did not inform the church, even the world of social work then was not yet well prepared to deal with this sort of thing. (This paper gives a helpful (and by today's lights rather shocking) historical context.)
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:
Has anyone here been birched or caned? I'm not sure I'm believing that it is enough to break the skin and bleed into the underpants (although I can totally believe it is a traumatic experience and leaves bruises and nasty grazes on the skin).
Never happened to me - one of the benefits of a comprehensive school education - although it was rumoured that the Deputy Head kept one in reserve, in extremis.

But I can quite imagine that if one whacks long enough and hard enough there might be a certain amount of bloodshed. IME, if you hit a playground hard enough you can expect to bleed on your knees and hands. Tarmac or cane, a hard impact will draw blood.

I have never been caned or birched either. Though being the generation before Callan I suspect, it was still in use in my day, though definitely on the way out.

But I did talk to fellow pupils who had been caned, and at no time did any report breaking of the flesh/bleeding. But didn't the reports say that Smyth required the boys/young men to strip? That could make all the difference, quite apart from what else it rather loudly says.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by DaleMaily:
Obviously theology is not likely to be the main cause, otherwise you wouldn't have Saville etc. but perhaps there is something in seeing it as being connected in some way (nothing happens in a vacuum etc.), just as certain theologies within Islam are directly attributed to kids being radicalised.

As quetzalcoatl points out above, these things tend to be overdetermined, as such picking up on theology as a primary cause has generally only served to breed complacency IMO.

As the barristersblog points out, it was common to blame the Catholic abuse scandal on specifics of catholic theology (and many Pentecostal churches were particularly gleeful about this until reports of abuse started to surface with their ranks).

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ExclamationMark
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# 14715

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quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I think the Mark Stibbe who is a victim mentioned in the news was previously vicar at St Andrews Chorlewood. Which maybe shows another connection to New Wine as well as HTB.

That's correct. He was also removed from ministry after a moral failure. What made the latter rather different from most cases of this kind is that he was heading up a group to support children in a home without Fathers.
Indeed Mark Stibbe, one time darling of New Wine, was one of the people that I had in mind when I posted above.

I'm not quite sure how to parse your post, EM, but I think it would be worth pointing out that MS's moral lapse was completely unconnected with his work with children, AFAIK. He was by no means my cup of tea, and I could never understand the "Thinking man's Charismatic" tag, but there was no suggestion illegality in his behaviour.

Apologies - the post was badly worded. I was trying to suggest that his behaviour seemed inconsistent - working to support families without fathers on the one hand, depriving his own family of a father on the other.

Stibbe is now working with his 2nd wife in a project to support those who have suffered trauma through boarding schools.

I'm sure his report of his experience is genuine

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Martin60
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# 368

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I found Stibbe vastly disappointing BEFORE his fall from grace and that compounded it. I saw him speak in Leicester, where he'd been effusively welcomed by our vicar, where he listed all his major blessings; wife, kids, family, home, career, success (which included describing his jet setting lecture tour of America) and actually said, "If it's on, it's in.". In other words, everything he prayed for, he got.

In a room full of poor, broken people.

Then he threw it all away for another woman, and another vicar, on-line, not only pleaded for Stibbe's unconditional forgiveness but financial support. Classic ABUSE.

At least that guy went off-line, blog and all.

I'd be happy to know that Stibbe was doing a John Profumo, if he can't publically, unconditionally bow his head, i.e. privately, but it doesn't seem like it.

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Love wins

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Gamaliel
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Stibbe was always over-rated ... and, I'd suggest, deluded.

Canings and beatings with 'the dap' - a 'pump' if you're from the North of England, a 'plimsoll' or 'training shoe' if you're from elsewhere - were pretty common in bog-standard junior and secondary schools when I was growing up.

I received the dap a few times but was only caned once or twice on the hand. Some of the hard lads used to be caned quite frequently and saw it as a badge of honour.

The head of our junior school used to delightedly administer the cane in assembly, in front of the whole school - a practice I later learned that the rest of the staff deplored. Other teachers used to administer the cane privately in their offices.

The practice continued when we went to the comprehensive school but seemed to fizzle out some time around 1973/74 I would say ...

It was very much on its last legs for a good few years before that and I would imagine it was a lot worse at public schools than it was in the state sector.

So no, I don't doubt that a lot of the fellas who went through that system came out scarred in more ways than one.

I also think the stories of bleeding into your underpants sound a bit over-the-top. We tended to be caned on the hand, not the arse. The dap was administered to the arse and that wouldn't draw blood of course.

But hey ... I'm sure abuse did take place both at the toffs' evangelical Bible camps and at toff schools in general. I've heard eye-brow raising stories of some of the initiation ceremonies that used to take place in some of those schools too ...

[Ultra confused] [Eek!]

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Penny S
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# 14768

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Someone of my acquaintance seized the cane from the private school master's hand and threatened to beat him with it.
Can't remember which school.
But if it was the head who had him sacked from a holiday job in a well-known London store simply on his say so for no failure in his work there, he (the teacher) deserved it.

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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There are two more reports on this story, up on the channel4 news site:

https://www.channel4.com/news/exclusive-more-church-abuse-revelations
https://www.channel4.com/news/south-africa-worrying-concerns-over-john-smyth

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beatmenace
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# 16955

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:


That barrister blog is really something. He seems to be very casual about mentioning that he was caned as if this was perfectly normal in the 1970s. Both of my parents were older and were never caned (of course, they were never at private school), capital punishment basically dying out in the school systems in which they grew up a generation before.


I assume you really meant 'corporal' punishment.

If it was capital punishment this is an idea of what it might be like....

https://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-lesson/

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"I'm the village idiot , aspiring to great things." (The Icicle Works)

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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You are right, sorry.

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arse

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Callan
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# 525

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Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:

quote:
But I did talk to fellow pupils who had been caned, and at no time did any report breaking of the flesh/bleeding. But didn't the reports say that Smyth required the boys/young men to strip? That could make all the difference, quite apart from what else it rather loudly says.
I wouldn't imagine it would, ordinarily. Thinking of our Deputy Head, a stern but fair disciplinarian, with a wintry sense of humour*, who had served with the RAF during WWII, I can quite imagine him using the cane but not to the extent that blood flowed. If that happens we can assume, as you say, something else is going on.

*The one time I remember him smiling was on sports day. A friend of mine and I were walking down the field to join up with the rest of our friends when he gestured with his starting pistol for us to stay where we were so we didn't interrupt the race that was about to start. At which point one of our friends saw us and called for us to come and join them. "We can't, we're being held at gunpoint!" I replied. I like to think the smile said: "for once Callan, during the five years in which you have consistently lowered the tone of this school, you have, on this occasion, risen to the dignity of being mildly amusing". God rest his soul.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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If you've read the reports of what actually happened, I'd think it'd be a miracle if blood were not drawn.

We are not talking about six of the best here, not by a long chalk.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Turning to GF's reminiscences, they tally with what Roald Dahl reported. There's quite a difference between day-time trousers and pyjamas. It wasn't the norm, but it could occur.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Hilda of Whitby
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# 7341

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This story made today's NY Times. The first thing I thought was "what do Shippies say?" I wasn't aware of this thread--I searched for John Smythe and found it.

I hope the link works--it's possible to read a certain number of NY Times articles for free each month.

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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."

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