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Source: (consider it) Thread: How are evangelical Anglicans different?
Gamaliel
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Over on the 'Bash Camp' assault and battery thread, Sipech asserts that the term 'evangelical' is understood differently among evangelical Anglicans than it is among evangelicals of other persuasions.

I was intrigued by this as I've been around evangelical circles since 1981 and other than the shape or pattern of services - and that's less pronounced these days - I can't say I've ever detected any substantial difference between evangelical Anglicans and evangelical Baptists or evangelical Methodists or evangelicals in any other setting I've encountered.

I'd be interested if Sipech could specify what these differences are from his perspective and how he believes Anglicans 'do' define evangelicalism.

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Callan
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As an adult Christian my initial formation was with Icthus and being solidly, Middle Middle Class, I fitted right in, socially at least. I recently, for various complicated reasons, spent a weekend with a bunch of Anglican evangelicals who were very lovely but my posh-dar was off the scale. Doctrinally that makes no difference whatsoever. I'm guessing that it does make a difference in praxis but an evangelical, who didn't flee shrieking from the scene in the 1990s, would have to explain how that works in practice. I think it might explain why Anglican evangelicals don't join the Baptists, or whoever, rather than the C of E. It isn't unvarying rule, I hasten to add, the last but one evangelical ABC hailed from London's glamorous east end. And I don't set forth any of this as a criticism - none of us get to choose our parents - just an observation. If you put me in a room with a bunch of evangelicals who were all sworn to keep their denomination from me over the course of an evening I would guess the posh ones were C of E and I would probably be 80% right.

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Baptist Trainfan
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As I have related before, I (professional middle-class and public school background) have been told that I "sounded too posh to be a Baptist"!
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mr cheesy
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I think it depends on exactly how one defines the term Evangelical and the niche one finds oneself within in the CofE. There are at least 3 sizable Evangelical factions in the CofE. Very broadly they might be defined as Kewswick, Spring Harvest and New Wine churches.

We might broadly say that the first is closer to more conservative forms of Presbyterian and stricter Reformed Baptist. The second might be more comfortable amongst many Methodists and BU Baptists, the third closer to Vineyard and Pentecoastal churches.

Of course, it is more complex than this oversimplified characterisation and there is now considerable overlap between Anglicans who take cues from New Wine, Spring Harvest, HTB etc.

On one level there is necessarily a difference between the strictest Presbyterian and/or Reformed Baptists and Anglicans, if only because the former rarely recognise the Anglican structures as legitimate. Some Evangelicals exist who believe that there is only one Biblical form of government and the Episcopate isn't it.

But if you've only ever hung around with SH Anglicans and friends, you wouldn't have ever experienced this tension.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
As I have related before, I (professional middle-class and public school background) have been told that I "sounded too posh to be a Baptist"!

Out of interest, do you ever feel that from a class perspective (rather than a theological or personal one, etc.) you'd fit better into an evangelical Anglican setting rather than a Baptist one?

Talking of posh Anglicans, I worshipped at a Methodist FE the other night, and the preacher was a smooth-tongued lawyer, waxing lyrical about what he learnt on a monastic retreat. I immediately thought he must be CofE, although he wasn't introduced as such. Evangelical too? I don't know, but he certainly didn't have the normal MOTR preacher vibe that I'm used to.

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Gamaliel
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My experience of the Baptists is that they generally are posher than they think they are ... but all these things are relative.

I don't particularly want to focus on the class thing, and yes, that does come into it of course ...

I grew up in South Wales and at that time the denominations were fairly stratified in terms of social class, although to be frank, there wasn't a great deal of demographic difference between the Anglicans and Baptists.

It tended to go as follows:

Anglicans
Methodists
Baptists
Salvation Army
Pentecostals

But I'm talking a good while back now ...

Now, I think mr cheesy is right that when it comes to the Spring Harvest axis there ain't a great deal of difference between Anglican evangelicals and Baptist ones, for instance ...

You do get posh public school types in HTB and other charismatic Anglican circles, but to be fair, we also used to get some of those in the restorationist churches even - mainly the scions of missionary families who'd sent their kids home to the UK to public schools ...

We also had a smattering of former Anglican charismatics. On the whole, though, the demographic was fairly lower-middle class/upper working class and there were discernible north/south differences.

The class issue is interesting in and of itself, but it's not the issue I'm trying to address here.

I'm wondering why Sipech believes Anglican evangelicalism to be a somewhat different species to the evangelicalism found elsewhere.

Of course, there are different tribes within Anglican evangelicalism - 'Prayer Book Evangelicals' (in decline), the Reform type of Anglican evangelical, the Spring Harvest type, the New Wine type and so on ...

So no, it's not monolithic ...

But I'm wondering why Sipech believes it to be so distinct. I've never noticed and I'm pretty good on picking up nuances and differences.

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Enoch
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There's also a praxis distinction, or at least I think there is.

As evangelicals, none of them go for things like English use or baroque ceremonial. However there are those that really do prefer the ways of conducting services that go with the lower end of MotR. They are most comfortable expressing their day to day faith that way. They find it nourishing. Then there are those who think liturgy is all a bit of a nuisance. They think it quenches peoples' spirits rather than nourishes them. It gets in the way of reaching the unreached. These people would really rather get rid of it if they thought they could get away with it.

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Gamaliel
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Sure, I've come across that a fair bit from evangelical Anglicans in the New Wine stable ...

When I tell them that as a former 'new church' dude and non-conformist, I have a soft-spot for liturgy they look at me daft ... as we used to say in South Wales.

They really can't see the attraction - or they can, if pushed, but they grudgingly accept it ...

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
As I have related before, I (professional middle-class and public school background) have been told that I "sounded too posh to be a Baptist"!

Out of interest, do you ever feel that from a class perspective (rather than a theological or personal one, etc.) you'd fit better into an evangelical Anglican setting rather than a Baptist one?
In some ways, yes - though I am "broader" these days than out-and-out Evangelical. I actually more akin to most URC folk than Baptist, and I like good liturgy.

However my theological position is for Believers@ Baptism, Congregational church government and non-Establishment. Having said that, if in my old age I found myself living in a village where the only church was Anglican, I'd support it.

[ 07. February 2017, 17:14: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Gamaliel
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I can see that, Baptist Trainfan and SvitlanaV2 ... although part of me wants to very much guard against identifying particular denominations with particular social classes and so on ...

The question from SvitlanaV2 - and please correct me if I'm wrong - rather suggestions that being Anglican or being a Baptist are conditional on particular class-positions as it were ...

Why the heck should Baptist Trainfan be Anglican rather than Baptist given that he went to public school ...

Heck, I went to a bog-standard comprehensive school in South Wales. Does that mean I shouldn't be Anglican but a Baptist instead? Or any other church or denomination we might care to mention?

[Ultra confused] [Disappointed]

There are a whole range of factors involved in issues like this and class/demography is just one among many.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You do get posh public school types in HTB and other charismatic Anglican circles, but to be fair, we also used to get some of those in the restorationist churches even - mainly the scions of missionary families who'd sent their kids home to the UK to public schools ...

You will, I'm sure, know that there is an interesting observation to be made about English (I use the word advisedly) Pentecostalism and social class. Two of the men who first promulgated it (Cecil Polhill-Turner and Alexander Boddy) were Anglican. The former was "landed gentry", Cambridge educated and an ex-missionary while the latter, although less posh, was a son of the Vicarage in a day when difference to the clergy was still strong. There is an argument to be made that they got "frozen out" of the movement by folk from humbler backgrounds such as Smith Wigglesworth.

[ 07. February 2017, 17:21: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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@ Gamaliel - I was brought up Anglican and became a Baptist by conviction when I was about 18. My father definitely thought I was going down-market!
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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

The question from SvitlanaV2 - and please correct me if I'm wrong - rather suggestions that being Anglican or being a Baptist are conditional on particular class-positions as it were ...

Why the heck should Baptist Trainfan be Anglican rather than Baptist given that he went to public school ...

IF you read my post again you'll see I took the trouble in my post above to acknowledge that there are theological and personal reasons for becoming a member of a particular denomination.

FWIW, my impression is that the CofE is actually more mixed class wise than many of the various Nonconformist churches.

[ 07. February 2017, 17:57: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

So no, it's not monolithic ...

No it's not monolithic, on the other hand there is a general difference that isn't one of these 'both and' type of conclusions.

I think you are correct that baptists in certain parts of the country are a lot posher than they realise - often because they come from backgrounds that have become gentrified over time without realising it.

OTOH, you aren't going to have Iwerne mk II coming from the Baptist Union, I suspect.

I grew up in the inner city (before it became fancy as per up thread), and while I attended a charismatic church I mixed with a group of people from the local CofE, including the then vicars kids - and while there weren't always class differences there was a sense in which you were socialised into a different set of assumptions about life.

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chris stiles
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.. and to continue on that theme, there is a certain amount of cross over among conevo anglicans, certain independent Baptist churches and small Reformed/Presbyterian churches around the country which generally end up recruiting with much the same people.

Reading Fraser's piece I'd just like to pick out a couple of things:

"”. This ideal of manly Christian decency, all side partings and blazers, survives. It’s why the evangelical Alpha Course uses someone like Bear Grylls as its advertising poster boy."

Certainly rings true if you have ever been to the London Men's Convention or associated events.

"And this is why the Church of England hierarchy remains obsessed with maintaining the Anglican communion (ie what’s left of the empire) "

Which is an interesting point to be made alongside the observation that conevos generally tend to be very skeptical of hierarchy, unless it's some Bishop/Arch Bishop from the developing world.

[ 07. February 2017, 18:27: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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Ethne Alba
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Then again there are Anglican Evangelicals in the North of the UK.....and Anglican Evangelicals in the South of the UK......

[ 07. February 2017, 18:52: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]

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mr cheesy
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OK maybe this is easier (albeit probably overgeneralised) to do the other way around. Anglican churches which have a particular affinity to HTB tend to be middle-class professionals. In London they tend to include a lot of lawyers, barristers etc. Leaders often seem to be ex-lawyers or ex-barristers.

Anglican churches which have a close affinity to New Wine might arguably fit a lower social strata. Often is attractive to students and young vicars, and those vicars often arrived from lower-status middle-management jobs.

Conservative Evangelical Anglicans I know less about, but I suspect congregations are probably middle-aged and largely public sector jobs. Vicars probably older and maybe have less of a professional background.

I know that's a wild generalisation. I think there is also quite a large group of Anglican churches who are not the "closest" group to New Wine or Spring Harvest who might be more "standard" parish churches who maybe aspire to be in one of the other groups but never quite make it.

I'm not sure that those social distinctions (if they're in any sense real) are hard to overlay onto other kinds of Evangelical church.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

Conservative Evangelical Anglicans I know less about, but I suspect congregations are probably middle-aged and largely public sector jobs. Vicars probably older and maybe have less of a professional background.

You are forgetting that a lot of them take their cue from St Helens/All Souls etc, which are in some ways as professional as the HTB crowd - if not sometimes more so.
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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
You are forgetting that a lot of them take their cue from St Helens/All Souls etc, which are in some ways as professional as the HTB crowd - if not sometimes more so.

I'm less familiar with this tribe. The only conservative evangelical congregations I've known (vicars wearing suits, no vestments, limited liturgy, PSA sermons) seemed to have much weaker links to central London churches than the HTB churches have with HTB. I'm not sure the dynammic is quite the same.

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wabale
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Although I might be fairly described as a 'Conservative Evangelical', I have always preferred the term Christian as I think it's the only one that really matters. I became a Christian through the ministry of a man called Patrick at the place of work where I was doing a summer job. He preached at an independent Evangelical church, but was not attached to it.
Shortly afterwards I went to a University where my history tutor was also the college chaplain. That said, I think the reason I got confirmed in the C of E was probably simply that many of my friends belonged to it, not out of any particular conviction.
So when some years later I married a Baptist, I would have been quite happy to have attended a Baptist Church, though probably not to 'become a Baptist'. My wife did eventually get confirmed. At one point, when we had a particularly dictatorial vicar, we did contemplate defecting to a Baptist church, but the vicar left just as we were about to run.
My point is that as long as you don't have very strong views on ecclesiology there are some brands of evangelicalism which are pretty much interchangeable. One of the division lines is probably class, and because we are not in a posh area Alpha talks have always been done by the vicar rather than via the Nicky Gumbel DVD. Although my own C of E church regards itself as Evangelical, it is basically a village church, sadly now pretty much the village church. It therefore features fewer Evangelical tribal features than an Evangelical church in a city or suburb.
The fault-line within evangelicalism which I have become increasingly aware of, even living in the Styx, or perhaps because of living in the Styx, is I suspect, to do with American evangelical influence. I find myself increasingly at odds with those evangelicals, particularly those in preaching or other leadership roles, to whom Creationism and resisting the 'myth' of climate change are articles of faith. For example I recently wrote to my local 'Christian Bookshop', ie Evangelical Bookshop, suggesting that their Science shelf might have at least one book setting out the case that you could believe in both Creation and Evolution without having to make a choice between the two. I got a sharp letter back pointing out that their books on Creation gave the 'scientific' reasons why Creationism alone was true, that the book that I suggested was 'unfair', and that I was not an Evangelical and I shouldn't believe in atheistic philosophy!

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm less familiar with this tribe. The only conservative evangelical congregations I've known (vicars wearing suits, no vestments, limited liturgy, PSA sermons) seemed to have much weaker links to central London churches than the HTB churches have with HTB. I'm not sure the dynammic is quite the same.

I agree that the dynamic isn't quite the same, though I'd disagree that this makes it any less weak.

The links just happen at a slightly different level (Christianity Explored, Word Alive, some pastors conferences, the same mix of authors books pushed and so on). If for 'HTB church' you read 'Reform linked church' the similarities become more pronounced.

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Gamaliel
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Interesting observations, Wabale.

I'm on the periphery of evangelicalism these days, but I have noticed an increasing emphasis on Creationism and various other US influences - less so among Anglican evangelicals ... So perhaps that's a difference ...

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by wabale:
... The fault-line within evangelicalism which I have become increasingly aware of, even living in the Styx, or perhaps because of living in the Styx, is I suspect, to do with American evangelical influence. I find myself increasingly at odds with those evangelicals, particularly those in preaching or other leadership roles, to whom Creationism and resisting the 'myth' of climate change are articles of faith. For example I recently wrote to my local 'Christian Bookshop', ie Evangelical Bookshop, suggesting that their Science shelf might have at least one book setting out the case that you could believe in both Creation and Evolution without having to make a choice between the two. I got a sharp letter back pointing out that their books on Creation gave the 'scientific' reasons why Creationism alone was true, that the book that I suggested was 'unfair', and that I was not an Evangelical and I shouldn't believe in atheistic philosophy!

It may be that I live in a part of the country that is regionally more idiosyncratic than I realise, or it may be that nobody talks about this and so I've never noticed, but I can only think of one evangelical CofE person I know who I suspect is a creationist, and they aren't in any position of authority. I don't get the impression there are many creationists round here at all. I would strongly suspect those that are will not be CofE.


Going back to social stratification by denomination, there used to be regional differences which go back to whether there is a tradition of Old Dissent. In parts of the country where Old Dissent was strong (e.g. much of the East Midlands) I got the impression when I was young that in towns, there were sometimes two parallel establishments, one CofE and the other, Old Dissent, usually Congregationalist, i.e. now URC. If a town had a Congregationalist establishment, they pecked above the Baptists. If it didn't, the parallel establishment could be Baptist.

In parts of the country where dissent came later, e.g. much of the north, dissent was usually Methodist. There might well be a parallel establishment that was Methodist. But in areas where there was an Old Dissent establishment, Methodists tended to peck below both Congregationalists and Baptists.


Outside towns, since the Civil War, it has been very unusual for gentry to be anything other than CofE or occasionally recusant.

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ExclamationMark
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There are also different strands within Baptist circles. There's the Grace vs General (BUGB) divide, with the former being Calvinistic and more hard line.

Within BUGB there are a range of tribes from reformed across to Pentecostal and all shades in between. That will have an expression in style and approach from Keswick to Spring Harvest across to New Wine (and every shade in between).

Me? I'm a crossover of the latter two with aspects of the former (the holiness bit).

IME most baptist churches are middle class but again there's a range. A lot of BUGB churches reflect their immediate geographical context and community which can lead to some wide variations - from Gold Hill (Amersham commuter land) to churches on council estates or working with refugees.

There's still a residual poshness in some Baptist circles but it's more reflective of "connections" to well known Baptist families as opposed to a class driven thing. I've only heard the odd comment that I'm not as thick as I look or sound, being from a working class background on a council estate hasn't caused too many problems. Then again ...perhaps it's the degrees from a Fenland University which change some people's perception.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
In parts of the country where Old Dissent was strong (e.g. much of the East Midlands) I got the impression when I was young that in towns, there were sometimes two parallel establishments, one CofE and the other, Old Dissent, usually Congregationalist, i.e. now URC. If a town had a Congregationalist establishment, they pecked above the Baptists. If it didn't, the parallel establishment could be Baptist.

Exactly. In our town centre, the CofE has always been the "civic church" for "county" people, while the church I serve (Old Dissent Congregationalist going back to the 17th century, now merged with a later Baptist church) served the posher "trades" people. It has been hard for either congregation to realise that "times have changed".
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Gamaliel
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To be honest, if we take the more obviously elitist 'Bash Camp's type evangelicals out of the equation - I'd say there is very, very little difference between Anglican evangelicals and mainstream Baptist evangelicals these days.

This applies particularly at the Spring Harvest and New Wine end of things.

What the Baptist evangelicals don't tend to have, of course, is a 'High church' element to define themselves against and the liberal wing within the BUGB is smaller than it is in the CofE.

I use 'High Church' in the Anglo-Catholic sense here.

Consequently, I think it's fair to say that many Baptist evangelicals are less 'self-conscious' about their evangelicalism than some Anglican evangelicals, who feel the need to wear their evangelicalism on their sleeve a bit more. With Baptist evangelicals they are pretty much surrounded by other evangelicals and so don't feel so much of a need to trumpet their evangelicalism to members of their own denomination - although that does happen.

Other than that relatively minor characteristic, I don't think there's a great deal of difference. They attend the same conferences, read the same books, sing the same songs ...

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
With Baptist evangelicals they are pretty much surrounded by other evangelicals and so don't feel so much of a need to trumpet their evangelicalism to members of their own denomination - although that does happen.

Indeed: it's the more "liberal" and "high church" Baptists who wave flags saying, "Don't forget us! We're here!"

[ 08. February 2017, 07:25: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
To be honest, if we take the more obviously elitist 'Bash Camp's type evangelicals out of the equation - I'd say there is very, very little difference between Anglican evangelicals and mainstream Baptist evangelicals these days.

This applies particularly at the Spring Harvest and New Wine end of things.

I think there *may* be a difference in the direction to whom these groups look for resources. What I mean by that is that Evangelical Anglicans of different types have access to resources by Evangelical Anglicans - and generally look to themselves for leadership (not forgetting that both New Wine and HTB are fundamentally Anglican Evangelical structures).

Baptists and Independent Evangelicals (who are in the same track) often use the Anglican Evangelical resources but seem less tied to them, and might look elsewhere for additional input. So an Anglican church might be a member of the Evangelical Alliance, but a Baptist or Independent Evangelical church might be more inclined to promote the Christian Institute and might more regularly have speakers from those organisations.

Baptists and Independent Evangelicals (and other evangelicals, charismatics etc) who are steps divorced from the Anglical Evangelicals have their own resources and conferences and might not interact with Anglicans at all.

quote:
What the Baptist evangelicals don't tend to have, of course, is a 'High church' element to define themselves against and the liberal wing within the BUGB is smaller than it is in the CofE.

I use 'High Church' in the Anglo-Catholic sense here.

Kinda hard to see what a High Church Baptist might look like in reality. I suppose that's basically the uncomfortable ground where I stand - attracted to many things about Higher-than-Middle Anglicanism but disagree with many of the theology that goes with it. Liturgically I'm Anglican, theologically I'm baptist.

But generally speaking the spread of people (theology and practice) in a Baptist church is going to be different to those in an Evangelical Anglican church, albeit with a significant overlap. Anglo-Catholics don't exist so much in the Baptist church but then Reformed believers-baptism Evangelicals don't tend to exist so much in the Anglican church. I've known both, but they tend to keep their heads down.

quote:
Consequently, I think it's fair to say that many Baptist evangelicals are less 'self-conscious' about their evangelicalism than some Anglican evangelicals, who feel the need to wear their evangelicalism on their sleeve a bit more. With Baptist evangelicals they are pretty much surrounded by other evangelicals and so don't feel so much of a need to trumpet their evangelicalism to members of their own denomination - although that does happen.
Not sure what you are meaning here. There certainly exist Conservative Anglican congregations whose Evangelicalism is something they wear prominently.

quote:
Other than that relatively minor characteristic, I don't think there's a great deal of difference. They attend the same conferences, read the same books, sing the same songs ...
There certainly is convergence across denominations (as we've agreed before) but I'm not sure there is so much overlap between Conservative Evangelical Anglicans and (let's say) hymnbook Baptists (inside the BU and out). The further one goes in a Reformed direction, the less convergence there is and the differences become bigger.

I do think those extremes are gradually shrinking within the BU and the Anglican church - and other types of church are taking up the slack.

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Baptist Trainfan
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It was quite a number of years ago that David Coffey (former Baptist Union General Secretary) wrote his book outlining the "tribes of Evangelicalism" and pleading for more unity between them.
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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Kinda hard to see what a High Church Baptist might look like in reality.

Something like this - although this was extreme and, of course, Congregational!

But we (admittedly URC as well as Baptist) have pews, an organ, a gowned minister and choir, responsive psalms (but no candles or incense!) - we are considered quite unusual by the other Baptist churches in town.

There is also the example of the Catholic Apostolic Church to consider - originally a charismatic offshoot of Presbyterianism, it ended up with an elaborate liturgy which, I suspect, I would have rather liked.

[ 08. February 2017, 08:14: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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mr cheesy
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Huh, that's quite a thing. I have heard that various groups have been experimenting with Evensong and more formal service styles (it feels like we've had this conversation before, apologies if so..)

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arse

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Ethne Alba
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It's always helpful to look at an evangelical church's website.
Head for the Links section and all of a sudden one can tell exactly what's what.
[Biased]

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Gamaliel
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Ha - yes, that's right Ethne Alba ...

But I'm still waiting for Sipech to make an appearance and to tell us why evangelical Anglicans are so very different from other evangelicals in his view ...

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Baptist Trainfan
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I think that most churches' websites say a lot about them - intentionally or not!
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Callan
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Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
There is also the example of the Catholic Apostolic Church to consider - originally a charismatic offshoot of Presbyterianism, it ended up with an elaborate liturgy which, I suspect, I would have rather liked.
I used to know two charming elderly maiden ladies who had been brought up among the Catholic Apostolics. They made the transition to Anglo-Catholicism quite seamlessly.

Tangentially, they were always good for one priceless dropped brick per pastoral visit. I once took great pleasure in informing Mrs Callan, who is a Methodist, that Methodism arose from Christianity. I was later informed - I was a NSM at the time - that it was years since the parish had had a proper curate. I mentioned this to a very holy and charming parishioner who responded "from now on Father, I shall think of you as the improper Curate". May their memories be eternal. I think the alternative space time continuum where the Catholic Apostolics survive into the 21st century would be an interesting one to visit.

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Callan
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Originally posted by wabale:

quote:
it is basically a village church, sadly now pretty much the village church. It therefore features fewer Evangelical tribal features than an Evangelical church in a city or suburb.
Village religion is one of the most attractive features of the Church of England, IMO, inasmuch as you are obliged to get along with people who would otherwise worship somewhere else because there is nowhere else to go. I spent five very happy years looking after a village church which was basically small c and large C conservative and MOTR despite the fact that my churchpersonship is nose bleed high and my list of greatest Prime Ministers we never had includes Ed Miliband and Roy Jenkins. My two abiding memories are trying to get a PCC meeting, which was supposed to be discussing women bishops off the subject of Rowan Williams' guest editorship of the New Statesman, when he had a go at the coalition - I was sorely tempted to tell Deanery Synod that we were in favour of women bishops who voted Tory - and remarking to the PCC Secretary that dragging parishes up or down the candle was a waste of time before adding - what am I saying, I've just made you all sing Ye Who Own The Faith of Jesus. She thought it was quite funny but I suspect that if I had introduced incense or worn a white poppy I would have been dragged out and burned at the stake.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I once took great pleasure in informing Mrs Callan, who is a Methodist, that Methodism arose from Christianity.

I have been told more than once, "I used to be a Catholic, but now I'm a Christian" (well, we know what they mean); or asked, "Is this a Christian church?" (i.e. not Anglican, Catholic or whatever - less easy to suss out!)
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SvitlanaV2
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It happens the other way too. I once had a French Catholic ask me if Methodists were Christians....

[ 08. February 2017, 11:45: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It happens the other way too. I once had a French Catholic ask me if Methodists were Christians....

Methodism here had a very strong wowser element, so there's a lot of doubt.

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Baptist Trainfan
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[Confused]
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Gee D
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Do you not know wowsers? Those who think it wrong to have a cold beer after a game of cricket on a hot Saturday afternoon, think a glass of red at a bbq the work of the devil etc. How can such people really be Christians?

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Gamaliel
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Cold beer?

Cold beer?!!

What is this cold beer of which you speak?

How can beer be beer if it is cold? *

* Actually, of course beer can be cold, but in some countries they chill the life out of it ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
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Baptist Trainfan
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But some of us don't like beer. Does that mean that we are not among the Elect?

Good cider and wine, however ...

[ 08. February 2017, 19:44: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But some of us don't like beer. Does that mean that we are not among the Elect?

Good cider and wine, however ...

As I said, a glass of red at a bbq, and so forth is normal behaviour; it's the rejection of wholesome beverages mentioned in the Bible (and their close cousins, such as Scotch) that makes the wowser. Very strong in Methodism here - and dare I say it, the Baptists as well.

Gamaliel, nothing at all wrong with a good cold beer. Originally after a game on Saturday afternoon, as you grow into family life, after cutting the lawns on a Saturday afternoon etc.

[ 08. February 2017, 20:17: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Gamaliel
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There's everything wrong with a cold beer if you chill any semblance of taste out of it. Not that many Aussie beers taste of anything in the first place, although in fairness, things seem to have improved from what I've heard. Cooper's is ok and there are others alongside that from what I've heard ...

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Enoch
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Unless intentionally mulled, beer should be served at cellar temperature. That is neither 'ice-cold' the way people drink it in Australia, nor room temperature as in the reprehensible faux-nostalgia of having a row of barrels on a shelf behind the bar. 53°F is about right.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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53F? Translation required!

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Baptist Trainfan
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This thread seems to have taken an unanticipated turn ...
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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It happens the other way too. I once had a French Catholic ask me if Methodists were Christians....

Methodism here had a very strong wowser element, so there's a lot of doubt.
Your comment was a joke, but I should make it clear that the lady in question was very unlikely to have been thinking about beer. She was simply ignorant about Methodism, as very many French people would be.

As for Australian Methodists, it surprises me to hear that they're teetotal. British Methodists were never entirely dry. In fact the Wesleyans, who were in the majority, mostly looked askance at the practice. And British Methodists today mention teetotalism only in jest, IME.

To get closer to the topic at hand, are Australian Methodists still considered to be evangelicals? There are still some British Methodist evangelicals (who appear to have little to do with the Anglican varieties). However, the denomination as a whole doesn't have a very evangelical reputation here now.

[ 09. February 2017, 00:32: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

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Marama
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That gets complicated. The only people calling themselves 'Methodists' in Australia are now a recent (well, 1940s) American group calling themselves Wesleyan Methodists (mainly in Victoria). All the rest are in the Uniting Church, which has flexible views on such things as alcohol. Some of those from a Methodist background abstain, many others don't really have much allegiance to any of the old constituent bits of the new UCA. I'm not sure whether the American group abstains -they probably do.
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