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Source: (consider it) Thread: How are evangelical Anglicans different?
Marama
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The Wesleyan Methodists would certainly see themselves as evangelical. There is also an evangelical wing to the Uniting Church, but in general the denomination would be seen as liberal. Whether the evangelical wing comes more from the old Methodist uniters would be difficult to determine; it probably varies by state.
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Gee D
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You'd have a much better understanding than I do, but my outsider's impression is that at last there's some sort of Uniting Church approach rather than those of the constituents continuing. The school to which my father, son and I went was Presbyterian, and still has overtones of that. The chaplain when Dlet was in prep school and early years of senior school was a former Methodist and there was a fair disjunct between his approach and that of his predecessors - although despite his background,he did like a glass of red. His successors, at least while Dlet was there displayed a much more modern attitude to many questions.

Back to the tangent: the wife of a former Prime Minister described the gin and tonics on HMS Brittannia as very English - warm and weak. The beer's certainly too warm for my taste. Not sure about cellar temps here always being around 11 degrees C though. This evening the temp in mine is about 20, and that's an underground cellar.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Gamaliel
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It's a myth that the British drink 'warm' beer ... although it can be difficult to keep proper cask ale at the correct temperature. It's best kept in the cellar below the pub of course and must always, always, always be dispensed via hand-pump.

That doesn't mean that there aren't good 'craft beers' around that aren't cask - of course there are. But they are not the same as real ales.

From what I can gather, Aussies and Americans tend to freeze the life out of their beer, but I've heard that's changing.

For bottled British ale it depends on the brew, but slightly chilled is best ... not room temperature but not plunged to sub-zero temperatures either.

11 to 13 degrees Celsius would be about right.

Tangent over ... back to evangelical Anglicanism ...

I'm still wondering where Sipech is. He was the one who asserted that Anglican evangelicalism was a different beast to evangelicalism per se.

For what it's worth, I'd agree with Baptist Trainfan that back in the ASB days, Anglican evangelicalism was more recognisably 'Anglican' in feel than it tends to be today ...

Is that a loss?

Yes, I'd submit that it is.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Michael Saward certainly had something to say about that in "The Post-Evangelical Debate" where, after noting Dave Tomlinson's dissatisfaction with his church, showed how his Anglican variety was very different.
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Gamaliel
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But is it?

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Edith
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
My experience of the Baptists is that they generally are posher than they think they are ... but all these things are relative.

I don't particularly want to focus on the class thing, and yes, that does come into it of course ...

I grew up in South Wales and at that time the denominations were fairly stratified in terms of social class, although to be frank, there wasn't a great deal of demographic difference between the Anglicans and Baptists.

It tended to go as follows:

Anglicans
Methodists
Baptists
Salvation Army
Pentecostals

But I'm talking a good while back now ...

Now, I think mr cheesy is right that when it comes to the Spring Harvest axis there ain't a great deal of difference between Anglican evangelicals and Baptist ones, for instance ...

You do get posh public school types in HTB and other charismatic Anglican circles, but to be fair, we also used to get some of those in the restorationist churches even - mainly the scions of missionary families who'd sent their kids home to the UK to public schools ...

We also had a smattering of former Anglican charismatics. On the whole, though, the demographic was fairly lower-middle class/upper working class and there were discernible north/south differences.

The class issue is interesting in and of itself, but it's not the issue I'm trying to address here.

I'm wondering why Sipech believes Anglican evangelicalism to be a somewhat different species to the evangelicalism found elsewhere.

Of course, there are different tribes within Anglican evangelicalism - 'Prayer Book Evangelicals' (in decline), the Reform type of Anglican evangelical, the Spring Harvest type, the New Wine type and so on ...

So no, it's not monolithic ...

But I'm wondering why Sipech believes it to be so distinct. I've never noticed and I'm pretty good on picking up nuances and differences.



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Edith

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Edith
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Whoops, that posted before I'd added the reply.

Which is where were the Catholics? Weren't there any, or were they so beyond the pale as to be unnoticed or shunned?

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Edith

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Enoch
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Edith, that's an interesting question.

Back in the 1950s or earlier, before Vatican II, in much of England and Wales, there weren't that many Catholics, and they really did keep themselves to themselves. Their own clergy discouraged them from mixing too much, for fear they would either get contaminated with Proddyness or would marry out. Things changed remarkably after Vatican II.

This will sound shocking now. I can still remember two different occasions when some us met Catholics in a sort of ecumenical context, and the surprise to discover they really weren't that different from the rest of us.

Objectively this may not be a totally true picture but at the time people got the impression that they were recusant aristocrats or either Irish or descended from fairly recent immigrants from Ireland. So they didn't fit conveniently into the typical provincial social structure, but there weren't enough of them for that to be significant.

The only parts of the country that were different were Liverpool, where the Irish proportion of the population was really significant and some parts of Lancashire where whole recusant communities existed or had migrated into the adjoining towns in the C19 as part of the Industrial Revolution. As I've never lived there, I don't know how that affected the social set up.

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Gamaliel
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Good question, Edith. They were generally Irish and invisible, other than when fights broke out with Catholic kids from the RC junior school further down the street.

There were one or two posh Catholic families but by and large most Catholics were Irish and poor. They were less well dressed, had shoes that were falling apart and snotty names. We believed that the priests were pocketing the money from their raffle tickets ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Gamaliel
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'snotty noses' that should have been ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Gamaliel
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More seriously, other than that nine year old's perspective, RCs were generally fairly working class and strongly represented in local Labour Party politics.

There was a residual anti-Catholicism when I was growing up in South Wales. Everyone from otherwise MoTR Anglicans to raving Penties thought that the RCC was reprehensible and out to rip people off.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... There were one or two posh Catholic families but by and large most Catholics were Irish and poor. They were less well dressed, had shoes that were falling apart and snotty noses. ...

And of course, one reason for that was that by the time one was in one's teens and old enough to be allowed to hear such things, one's parents said it was all because their priests told them they'd be damned if they used those wicked Protestant engines. So they had huge numbers of children, couldn't look after them and couldn't afford to give them decent shoes. [Mad]

Gamaliel, I'm sure you're old enough to have heard that one!

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
More seriously, other than that nine year old's perspective, RCs were generally fairly working class and strongly represented in local Labour Party politics.
....

Still some noticeably Irish/ RC influences in S Wales Labour- e.g. from your old stamping ground Paul Murphy (KCSG etc), longstanding MP for Torfaen, his successor Nick Thomas-Symonds, Kevin Brennan (MP Cardiff West), Paul Flynn MP Newport West, etc. More widely, the RC/Labour voter correlation still holds up, according to most of the research on these things.

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Gamaliel
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Thanks Albertus - yes, those are names to conjure with ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... There were one or two posh Catholic families but by and large most Catholics were Irish and poor. They were less well dressed, had shoes that were falling apart and snotty noses. ...

And of course, one reason for that was that by the time one was in one's teens and old enough to be allowed to hear such things, one's parents said it was all because their priests told them they'd be damned if they used those wicked Protestant engines. So they had huge numbers of children, couldn't look after them and couldn't afford to give them decent shoes. [Mad]

Gamaliel, I'm sure you're old enough to have heard that one!

MR. HARRY BLACKITT: Look at them, bloody Catholics, filling the bloody world up with bloody people they can't afford to bloody feed.

MRS. BLACKITT: What are we dear?

MR. BLACKITT: Protestant, and fiercely proud of it.

MRS. BLACKITT: Hmm. Well, why do they have so many children?

MR. BLACKITT: Because... every time they have sexual intercourse, they have to have a baby.

(Python, Monty. But you knew that.)

[ 13. February 2017, 14:42: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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quetzalcoatl
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I remember the old joke that a well-dressed man in the area would be a Protestant, and probably the rent man. Don't answer the door. (More of a Liverpool joke really).

[ 13. February 2017, 15:08: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

The only parts of the country that were different were Liverpool, where the Irish proportion of the population was really significant and some parts of Lancashire where whole recusant communities existed or had migrated into the adjoining towns in the C19 as part of the Industrial Revolution.

To which you can of course add Birmingham - which has the third largest St Patrick's Day parade after Dublin and New York, and which had sufficient RC population to get the first Roman Catholic cathedral to be built in England since the Reformation.

Now, it's an interesting question why the Birmingham Irish fly so far under the radar* - everyone thinks of Liverpool because it faces Ireland but actually Birmingham at various points since the 19th century has given Liverpool a run for its money as "most Irish city" in England.
It's never really had the sectarian split of football teams either - unlike Glasgow and Liverpool.

*there's a story (probably apocryphal but still current in the city) that after the pub bombings the city fathers quietly had a word through intermediaries pointing out to the IRA that if they were bombing Birmingham they really hadn't thought things through.

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And is it true? For if it is....

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Forthview
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People often tend to forget that at the time of the 'Second Spring' of Catholicism in England the Irish were citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and that the British,perhaps principally the English,governed Ireland.they should not have been considered as 'foreigners'
I agree that,in many respects, they were invisible.
I don't know much about England but in my home town in Scotland 12.000 inhabitants out of 26.000 were Catholic. As far as social events in the town were concerned the Catholics were really not quoted.It may seem unbelievable but there were not allowed to join the bowling greens.

Of course,as I think Enoch, said they did tend also to keep themselves to themselves and had their own social events which were usually only for Catholics.

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Kwesi
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betjemaniac
quote:
It's never really had the sectarian split of football teams either - unlike Glasgow and Liverpool.

Be that as it may, Birmingham was the redoubt of Austin Chamberlain, its mayor, who split the Liberal Party over his opposition to Irish Home Rule. His creation of the Liberal Unionist Party, which, later merged with the Conservatives, greatly strengthened the right amongst the non-Catholic working class in areas of Irish immigration, including Birmingham, and laid the foundations of Unionist (Liberal Unionist+Conservative) domination of British politics in the modern age. Birmingham invented ethnic anti-immigrant politics.
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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
betjemaniac
quote:
It's never really had the sectarian split of football teams either - unlike Glasgow and Liverpool.

Be that as it may, Birmingham was the redoubt of Austin Chamberlain, its mayor, who split the Liberal Party over his opposition to Irish Home Rule. His creation of the Liberal Unionist Party, which, later merged with the Conservatives, greatly strengthened the right amongst the non-Catholic working class in areas of Irish immigration, including Birmingham, and laid the foundations of Unionist (Liberal Unionist+Conservative) domination of British politics in the modern age. Birmingham invented ethnic anti-immigrant politics.
Although the Chamberlains were hardly CofE Establishment either - they were Unitarian!

Actually, that in itself is an interesting observation. The amount of money you could make in Birmingham very quickly dwarfed that of the textile barons of Lancashire, or the South Wales coal magnates. The observation that the carriage was stopping at the church rather than the chapel by the third generation is, I think, less true in Birmingham than elsewhere. It was quite possible to stay in a bubble of whatever faith you had, securely surrounded by other local establishment figures who shared it. I would suggest that there was less of a rush to Anglicanism than would be the case elsewhere.

I often think the difference with Birmingham is that it is/was such a free-for-all - the RC church was strong, there were Quaker industrialists, the "leading" family that essentially dragged the place kicking and screaming into the late 19th century was Unitarian, then it was a stronghold of the Christadelphians too.

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And is it true? For if it is....

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Kinda hard to see what a High Church Baptist might look like in reality.

Something like this - although this was extreme and, of course, Congregational!

But we (admittedly URC as well as Baptist) have pews, an organ, a gowned minister and choir, responsive psalms (but no candles or incense!) - we are considered quite unusual by the other Baptist churches in town.

The parish where I was received into the Anglican Communion is across the street from Canada's largest Baptist church, and they could go head to head with us in terms of position on the candle. (For one, they had regular "Choral Evensong," which we certainly didn't).

Then there's the Evangelical Baptists in the Georgian former SSR - talk about an extreme case!

quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
There is also the example of the Catholic Apostolic Church to consider - originally a charismatic offshoot of Presbyterianism, it ended up with an elaborate liturgy which, I suspect, I would have rather liked.
I used to know two charming elderly maiden ladies who had been brought up among the Catholic Apostolics. They made the transition to Anglo-Catholicism quite seamlessly.
Interesting - I think I remember someone else saying on one of the CA threads that they tended to settle into high and dry parishes. Incidentally, their funds still exist as a distinct endowment in the Anglican Foundation of Canada.
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Enoch
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Something also that people have never registered is quite how much middle class migration there has been from Ireland to Britain in the C20. If your memory goes back to the fifties and sixties, think how many Irish GPs there were then.

Indeed, generally, irrespective of the effect on religious denominations, middle class migration is something nobody seems to have noticed very much, or appreciated how significant it was. Migration is always assumed to have been the tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to breathe free. Yet where do people think Australia, Canada etc got their first generations of lawyers, doctors etc from. They established families in their new homes just like the the tired, the poor and the huddled masses. Their children tended to follow them into the same sorts of careers. Indeed, being literate, they were likely to retain close links with their relatives back home. If things were going well, they were likely to encourage others to follow them.

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Kwesi
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Enoch
quote:
Something also that people have never registered is quite how much middle class migration there has been from Ireland to Britain in the C20.
How much? What's the evidence?
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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Enoch
quote:
Something also that people have never registered is quite how much middle class migration there has been from Ireland to Britain in the C20.
How much? What's the evidence?
I'm not aware of any specific evidence that would satisfy a sociologist. It might be quite difficult to find as there was more or less complete freedom of movement. So records might not even exist. I'm making my comment from growing up and living in Britain during the whole second half of that era.

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WearyPilgrim
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/QUOTE]The parish where I was received into the Anglican Communion is across the street from Canada's largest Baptist church, and they could go head to head with us in terms of position on the candle. (For one, they had regular "Choral Evensong," which we certainly didn't)./

Ah, yes, Yorkminster Park Baptist in Toronto --- a solidly evangelical church, but decidedly "high church Baptist", with processional and recessional, robed clergy, and first-rate classical choral music, all accompanying an order of worship that is relatively simple but which basically follows the traditional liturgical scheme. This can also be found at First Baptist in Halifax, which actually split off from St. Paul's Anglican Church and whose worship has a decidedly low-church Anglican flavor.

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Enoch
quote:
Something also that people have never registered is quite how much middle class migration there has been from Ireland to Britain in the C20.
How much? What's the evidence?
I daresay that someone with more insomnia than I could tot up the 20c figures, but I'll simply just give us an idea by quoting the UK census via Wikipedia: In 2001, there were 674,786 people in England (1.4% of the population) who had been born in Ireland.

Were they middle class? No idea, but as the Irish I knew and studied with who ended up in Britain were generally professional class, possibly quite a few of them were. I was told that opportunity and jobs were better, although perhaps the majority of my gay and lesbian friends in Ireland found more room for acceptance in the UK at that period than in Ireland.

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