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Source: (consider it) Thread: America First! Who wants to be second?
mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
You may have already seen this linked article in the Washington Post. I can't remember if any of the many threads on these boards have already linked to it. It's Stanley Hauerwas on patriotism as a false god, and the use of Christian phraseology in the service of patriotism as idolatry.

The American Civil Religion has been just this amalgam of patriotism and Christianity Lite for years.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Huia
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I've read the term manifest destiny applies to the U.S is that what it means or is that something else?


Historically, the term God's own country or simply Godzone has been used within New Zealand to describe itself, but I have seen that more as a description of the scenery than anything else. As a country we are not big nor powerful enough to impress anyone with our might or superiority - thank goodness.

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
I've read the term manifest destiny applies to the U.S is that what it means or is that something else?

I think "manifest destiny" as used in the US was the idea that we have an obvious (manifest) divine command (destiny) to kill, displace, and/or corral all the Indians that stand in the way between the current US borders and the Pacific Ocean.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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lilBuddha
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I looked up both on wiki and I don't think an American Civil Religion exists. I think that America, functionally, has always operated as a Christian nation, no lite about it.
Manifest destiny seems to be tied to that as well.
I've always been in favour of disestablishment. However, given the hold that Christianity has in a country that began with that as a premise, I am less certain.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

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Golden Key
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We periodically have a manifest destiny discussion. I went looking for one of my archived posts, which is below. It's from the "Neigh, Horseman Bree" thread, now in Oblivion. Other relevant posts by others are on that page, too.

quote:
Manifest destiny is basically "we're here, we won, so it's manifestly true that God destined it--YAYYYYYYY us".

Back in 2013, we had a thread called "Will there ever be effective gun control in the USA?". We got into the same sort of conversation, and I posted this:

quote:
As various of us Americans have pointed out on various related threads, American mythology is a large chunk of the problem. There are variations, but IMHO the main theme is something like this:

{Note: I DO NOT ENDORSE THIS!!!}

Our European ancestors were facing trials, tribulations, and persecutions back there. They couldn't follow their God-given faith. (Christianity, of course--nothing else counts.) So these Pilgrims bravely sailed to the New World, guided by the Manifest Destiny that God prepared for them. (Light to the world, etc.)

They bravely built settlements. They met and mingled with the local savages, who initially helped the Pilgrims learn how to live on this continent. But there was a falling out: the Indians didn't want to accept our clearly superior ways, nor acknowledge that God Had Given US This Place To Tame. So we fought them, which was unfortunate; but they clearly had it coming, because they weren't following God's will. Darn it, we tried to help the survivors out with education. We even gave them land to live on. We couldn't have been any fairer than that.

We civilized this country, with guns, determination, and grit, pushing ever westward. We cleared the land, and made it useful. We were pioneers. A man could work hard, get his own land, build a house with his own hands (and, sometimes, help from the neighbors). He had a God-given right to protect it from varmints, thieves, Injuns, and meddling governments. No one has the right to interfere with that--ever.

We're still pioneers. We're still manifestly destined. We lead the world in democracy, innovation, and military strength. We won't start a war (unless it's in our best interests); but, by gum, we will finish anyone who brings war to us.

May God bless and keep the United States of America, and may we always kick the asses of anyone who gets in our God-given way.

Does that make the situation a little clearer??




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Brenda Clough
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The weird and scary fact in this account is that, to a great extent, the American continent was more empty when the Pilgrims came that at any other time in history. Disease brought by the conquistadores swept through the Native American population and emptied the land. White men found native villages that were empty of inhabitants -- everyone had died of the measles. Naturally they thought that God's hand was in it. There was no other explanation they could have come to. They themselves, coming from germy and disease-ridden Europe, were immune to all these illnesses.

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lilBuddha
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Nope, still bullshit. Plagues happened in Europe, the good and the righteous and the white still fell afoul of the nasty real world. They ascribed what they saw to what they wanted to be.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Alan Cresswell

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It also fails to take account of the high death rate from disease and starvation in the first European settlements in the Americas. Praise God for the death of the native population (which we can blame on the hispanics), and forget the toll on European settlers.

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Kelly Alves

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quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Who decided that America was number one? I think the main problem in the world is that nations think they are superior to other nations, rather than recognising that we are all created equal. We all tend to love our own countries, but that doesn't mean that we have the right to claim we are better than the people of any other country. Such attitudes lead to resentment, anger and potentially to war.

Totally agreed. This mindset is exactly what knocks us out of the running for status as a Christian nation.See rolyn's post.

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Gramps49
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quote:
What's sad is that Christians (real ones, not Trumpian heretics) are taken in by his faux faith
I guess I have a problem with the implication that real Christians have been taken in by the Orange One's false faith.

I certainly wasn't. Nearly all the members of the congregation I attend weren't.

To be sure some pastors report their congregations are evenly split, but it does seem as time is going on many of the ones who voted for Trump are beginning to wake up to the devil in sheep's clothing.

If anything, it is causing us to be more open about what does it really mean to be Christian.

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Penny S
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People over here have been waffling on about respecting the leader/president of the free world.

Since I have no choice, then if he is my leader/president, I am not free. Oxymoron. Oxymoron squared since he wasn't even the choice of most of his serfs.

And as for the people on the Tory benches going on about the democratically elected leader/president, and respect for the holder of the office....(Well, they believe in the magic mandate fairy who converts something short of a popular vote into a massive mandate for stuff that wasn't in their manifesto, so what do I expect?)

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Jane R
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Penny S:
quote:
People over here have been waffling on about respecting the leader/president of the free world.
I do respect Angela Merkel.
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Adeodatus
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The expression "America First" seems to have been associated in the 1930s with appeasement of the German Nazi regime. If you google 'america first dr seuss' there are some excellent political cartoons by the good doctor. He seemed particularly fond of portraying the Republican Party as the GOPstrich - a large bird hiding its head in the sand.

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Brenda Clough
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Nope, still bullshit. Plagues happened in Europe, the good and the righteous and the white still fell afoul of the nasty real world. They ascribed what they saw to what they wanted to be.

Well of course they did. They still do -- did you see that some fundamentalists are claiming that the dam in Oroville, CA is crumbling because God is smiting California about gay people?

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Bishops Finger
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But how will their 'god' ensure that only gayz are drowned if (Real God forbid) the dam breaks?

Batshit crazy or what.....

[Disappointed]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Brenda Clough
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It beats me. The same argument was made after Hurricaine Katrina -- all those gays in New Orleans needed smiting. That so many churches and Christians took the hit seemed to indicate that God has bad aim.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Golden Key
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Jane--

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Penny S:
quote:
People over here have been waffling on about respecting the leader/president of the free world.
I do respect Angela Merkel.
{Chortle.}

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
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Golden Key
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Re God smiting the Oroville dam:

Does that mean that Westboro Church folks will show up in Oroville? Or at the evacuation centers?
[Paranoid]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
quote:
What's sad is that Christians (real ones, not Trumpian heretics) are taken in by his faux faith
I guess I have a problem with the implication that real Christians have been taken in by the Orange One's false faith.

I certainly wasn't. Nearly all the members of the congregation I attend weren't.

Well 85% of self-professing Evangelical, conservative, and born-again Christians voted for him. At least SOME of that lot are "real" Christians, I should think. Your congregation may not be representative of that population.

[ 14. February 2017, 23:20: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Golden Key
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Perhaps it's good to keep in mind that a) lots of people didn't vote at all; b) the answers from people polled are *their* answers, not necessarily those of the unpolled; and c) people don't necessarily tell pollers the truth.

FWIW, YMMV.

Not pointing specifically at you, mousethief. Have seen similar in many others' posts. This is just the time I happened to mention it.
[Angel]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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molopata

The Ship's jack
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Well 85% of self-professing Evangelical, conservative, and born-again Christians voted for him. At least SOME of that lot are "real" Christians, I should think. Your congregation may not be representative of that population.

This surprises me a lot, given his contention in Christian circles. From where do you draw this statistic?

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... The Respectable

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Jane R
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I like the Swiss version - "We look after everyone's money... including yours" [Subtext: treat us right or you'll never see it again]

Not as much as the Netherlands one, though. That's still the best.

(of course the real reason why there isn't a UK one is that Mayhem & Co think we already are second. Or pretending to be second whilst secretly knowing that we're first. Or something)

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mousethief

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As for the videos, I think the "America First, Mordor Second" one is inspired. Inspired by Melkor, but inspired nonetheless.

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Perhaps it's good to keep in mind that a) lots of people didn't vote at all; b) the answers from people polled are *their* answers, not necessarily those of the unpolled; and c) people don't necessarily tell pollers the truth.

Yes, good point. One would have to know how many evangelicals didn't vote. We're told larger numbers (percentage) of evangelicals voted than the population at large. But I've never heard numbers or percents put on that.

But suggesting that GLEs would lie? Shame. [Two face]

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by molopata:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Well 85% of self-professing Evangelical, conservative, and born-again Christians voted for him. At least SOME of that lot are "real" Christians, I should think. Your congregation may not be representative of that population.

This surprises me a lot, given his contention in Christian circles. From where do you draw this statistic?
2016 Presidential Election.

If you scroll down to voter demographics (a long way down), you'll find an entry for "White evangelical or born again" showing 81% for Trump. mousethief's 85% may be just a rounding up, or based on a different source.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by molopata:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Well 85% of self-professing Evangelical, conservative, and born-again Christians voted for him. At least SOME of that lot are "real" Christians, I should think. Your congregation may not be representative of that population.

This surprises me a lot, given his contention in Christian circles. From where do you draw this statistic?
2016 Presidential Election.

If you scroll down to voter demographics (a long way down), you'll find an entry for "White evangelical or born again" showing 81% for Trump. mousethief's 85% may be just a rounding up, or based on a different source.

Misremembery. I will use the more accurate number from now on. Thank you, Barnabas62.

It strikes me now that liberal Evangelicals, like liberal non-E's, probably voted in lower %% than conservative Evangelicals, so the 81% likely overrepresents the conservative proportion of Evangelicals as a whole.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Bishops Finger
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I rather liked the video from the Government of Mordor, too. However, I think it was a hoax - after all, it's quite possible that President Pussygrabber is, in fact, Our Lord Sauron The Great returned from the abyss of Nothingness into which the destruction of the Ring plunged Him!

If you recall the facts, Our Lord Sauron was missing one finger of The Black Hand, which may explain why His Revenant's hands are now small (not enough material left to make a full-sized pair).

I'll collect me Elvish cloak on the way out...

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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molopata

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[Smile] Kindly stay on. After rubbing my eyes on seeing extracts from DDT's latest news conference, I think I'm about ready to believe anything.

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... The Respectable

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molopata

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by molopata:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Well 85% of self-professing Evangelical, conservative, and born-again Christians voted for him. At least SOME of that lot are "real" Christians, I should think. Your congregation may not be representative of that population.

This surprises me a lot, given his contention in Christian circles. From where do you draw this statistic?
2016 Presidential Election.

If you scroll down to voter demographics (a long way down), you'll find an entry for "White evangelical or born again" showing 81% for Trump. mousethief's 85% may be just a rounding up, or based on a different source.

Thanks for the link Barnabas, much appreciated.

Nevertheless, in aberration to what I just said in my last post I am still not quite ready to accept it. The table provides a categorisation showing Protestants on 27% of the voting population and split on 37 - 60 in favour of Trump. Evangelicals, which I assume to be almost entirely Protestants account for 26% of the voting population, but are split 16 - 81 in favour of Trump. Somehow that doesn't quite rhyme.

One thing that the table also does not account for are the large number of voters who abstained from voting at all. For some of them this will be because they detested Clinton a lot and Trump even more. I know a few Evangelicals who fall into this category. I would thus like to propose a lukewarm defence for the reputation of Evangelical Christians who, all things considered, probably not as bad as 81% pro-Trump.

[ 17. February 2017, 23:25: Message edited by: molopata ]

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... The Respectable

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by molopata:

One thing that the table also does not account for are the large number of voters who abstained from voting at all. For some of them this will be because they detested Clinton a lot and Trump even more. I know a few Evangelicals who fall into this category. I would thus like to propose a lukewarm defence for the reputation of Evangelical Christians who, all things considered, probably not as bad as 81% pro-Trump.

I don't consider this a defence at all. They are responsible for Trump as well because they did not stop him.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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W Hyatt
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Mathematically, it is half of a defense because they are only half as much responsible as people who voted for Trump.

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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.

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Kelly Alves

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re God smiting the Oroville dam:

Does that mean that Westboro Church folks will show up in Oroville? Or at the evacuation centers?
[Paranoid]

Yeah, because Oroville is such a gay Mecca. The disaster is occurring in one of the reddist districts in the state.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Kittyville
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Of course, that might indicate God's judgement on a different group...
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re God smiting the Oroville dam:

Does that mean that Westboro Church folks will show up in Oroville? Or at the evacuation centers?
[Paranoid]

Yeah, because Oroville is such a gay Mecca. The disaster is occurring in one of the reddist districts in the state.
I didn't think that was how it worked. I thought it was to scare the straights for their toleration of the evilness the gayz.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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Oroville would be a fantastic Gay Mecca as it is already dammed.

I'll get me coat

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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@ molopata

There may be no contradiction. It depends on whether the questionnaire re religious affiliation enabled people to self identify as evangelicals (or born again) as a distinctive category, rather than sub category of Protestant.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20858 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Kelly--

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re God smiting the Oroville dam:

Does that mean that Westboro Church folks will show up in Oroville? Or at the evacuation centers?
[Paranoid]

Yeah, because Oroville is such a gay Mecca. The disaster is occurring in one of the reddist districts in the state.
But WC doesn't limit itself to protesting at funerals of LGBT folks. They twist things to prove that X person had something to do with aiding and abetting. They were even going to protest at Mr. Roger's funeral. Fortunately, they changed their minds.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17668 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
@ molopata

There may be no contradiction. It depends on whether the questionnaire re religious affiliation enabled people to self identify as evangelicals (or born again) as a distinctive category, rather than sub category of Protestant.

Absolutely, but I don't think that would be very many people belonging the categories which are not Protestant, as they are almost mutually exclusive. People who are non-Protestant are in the rarest of cases going to identify as born-again (with the caveat of Buddist/Hindu reincarnation of course!).

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... The Respectable

Posts: 1713 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378

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The problem with trying to use statistics to prove real Christians actually voted for Trump and not Hilary is that you assume all those who say they are Christian and voted for Trump are real Christians. Remember, Trump, got less than half the vote. Thus, it stands to reason only 40 percent of all those who claim to be Christian total, actually voted for Trump.

Also, remember, Jesus said "Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Just because one claimms to be Christian does not make him or her Christian. When I hear all the bigotted remarks from Trump supporters, I know they are way off the mark.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Every time we have the discussion as to "who is or isn't a Christian?" on the Ship, it devolves into mud slinging and finger waving and other forms of unpleasantness. And the bottom line always comes down to, "If X says he's a Christian, who is anybody else to say he isn't?"

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62953 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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(Hope this is the right thread for this.)

"John McCain just systematically dismantled Donald Trump’s entire worldview" (Wash. Post).

McCain "threw shade" (hope I'm using that right!) at T at a European conference--never mentioning his name.
[Overused]

Wish we could put them in a competition with each other: boxing, wrestling, pie-throwing...
[Two face]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17668 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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For those, like me, who don't care to pay to subscribe to the Washington Post, here's a link to same that is not behind a paywall.

[ 19. February 2017, 10:29: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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