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Source: (consider it) Thread: BREAKING--Two State Solution officially dead.
lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Judging by this thread and thousands of similar ones, it may be that someone with no knowledge of history or politics has at least as good a chance of finding a solution than the cognoscenti.

First, no. Not happening. But even should it be possible, it would require knowledge and a grasp of reality that cheeto doesn't have.
quote:

If Trump manages to facilitate one, he will have earned his place in the history books and done the world a great service. I pray for his success.

You make make me laugh. Let's accept miracles have happened and the biblical ones were real. When was the last, verifiable miracle of this calibre?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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rolyn
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Trump getting elected as President?

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
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Posted by Mousetheif:
quote:

What a funny way to add to a discussion.

It is a funny way, but I wasn't really that interested in entering the fray of the pissing contest of who can be the most (self) righteously indignant about their chosen 'side'. It strikes me that there are very close parallels with what appears to be an intractable conflict in Israel and Palestine and what went on in Northern Ireland. For years Northern Ireland was pushed into doing something about peace by international leaders outside its borders, but for all of his faults it was actually Bill Clinton who seemed to recognise that essentially compromise was effectively an uneasy state where no one was in fact entirely happy with the result and that those involved directly in conflict were the ones who had to broker peace by talking to each other rather than constantly seeking the righteous support of external nations and their leaders. To me it was a better way, because it achieved peace and ignited hope in a way that I would never have dreamed that I would see in my own lifetime. In the end all of the arguments about who was more right and all the self indulgent digging over old ground of ancient wrong achieved absolutely nothing. I'm not trying to hold up Northern Ireland as some kind of beacon it is clearly not either; there are still huge problems and challenges and violence is still a strong feature of society but to my mind there was a lesson there in terms of how peace began and peace certainly did not begin with internet forum pissing contests and righteousness competitions.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Trump getting elected as President?

Aren't miracles generally things that people are pleased about? None of miraculous destruction, miraculous carnage, miraculous shit-storm seem to be good adjective-noun pairs.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
As to the settlers, I think this entirely depends on their attitude. My sense is that some settlements would be welcome in a future Palestinian state providing the settlers contribute effectively to that state. Not all the settlers are religious ideologues and I think some may actually be prepared to live in that arrangement and I think there may be some places where Palestinians would accept them as new Palestininan towns.

This is probably a daft question but I don't understand the legal position. Land is owned. Presumably the Palestinian authority has some system of land ownership and the land occupied by settlers is technically owned by someone else - but the state of Israel does or doesn't have a system that applies to Palestinian territories?

I can read about the legal ambiguity regarding Palestine's government in international law (although not easily understand), but what I don't find any information on is what the internal legal positions are regarding land ownership and whether they are internally consistent.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
It is a funny way, but I wasn't really that interested in entering the fray of the pissing contest of who can be the most (self) righteously indignant about their chosen 'side'.

The whole way you frame your comment is wrong. There is an oppressor and there is an oppressed population. There is a bunch of people who were given land under a partition plan and who unilaterally decided to steal the other side's allocation. There is a population living without clean water because there are people down the road who, having stolen their land, have restricted access to their water.

That's what this is about. It isn't about taking sides between equal adversaries and deciding that the Palestinians gib is shinier than the Israelis. It is about taking sides against oppression and against a strong population trying to physically intimidate a weaker one.

quote:
I'm not trying to hold up Northern Ireland as some kind of beacon it is clearly not either; there are still huge problems and challenges and violence is still a strong feature of society but to my mind there was a lesson there in terms of how peace began and peace certainly did not begin with internet forum pissing contests and righteousness competitions.
Northern Ireland is absolutely nothing like Israel-Palestine.

And if you don't want to engage in "pissing contests" stop writing drivel on bulletin boards.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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fletcher christian

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Yes Mr Cheesy, you are of course entirely right; the radiated light of your righteous posts will leap out to illuminate the world and liberate Palestine. The power of piss compels them!

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
This is probably a daft question but I don't understand the legal position. Land is owned. Presumably the Palestinian authority has some system of land ownership and the land occupied by settlers is technically owned by someone else - but the state of Israel does or doesn't have a system that applies to Palestinian territories?

The Palestinian Authority effectively doesn't exist, the only real legal authority in the West Bank is the defacto occupying power, Israel.

Inside Israel-proper, there is a developing set of legal norms as you'd find in most developing countries. Inside the West Bank is a shadowy nether-world of laws made-up and enforced by the Israeli military, many of which harp back to laws set down by the British last time they were there (as occupiers) and even further back. Under these rules, for example, Israel can unilaterally decide that a family has no right to live in land they've been on for generations. It can unilaterally decide to knock houses down and declare than land in the West Bank is henceforth under military control as a gunrange.

There are two legal systems. If you live in the settlements, you are tried under normal Israeli law. If you happen to be a Palestinian 10 yards away, you're tried under a completely different set of laws. Even for the same offence.

Underneath that, the Palestinian Authority has tried to set up and enforce their own laws. But the Palestinian Authority is a puppet of the Israeli military. It can only do what it is allowed to do - which is often not very much given that so many of the lawmakers are in Israeli prison.

quote:
I can read about the legal ambiguity regarding Palestine's government in international law (although not easily understand), but what I don't find any information on is what the internal legal positions are regarding land ownership and whether they are internally consistent.
There are lots of things to read about this if you are really bothered - see btselem on the military courts, Machsom Watch for accounts of how the courts work, this about the two law systems in the West Bank, this from the J-Post about the way Ottoman era property law is used, and so on.

If you don't like those resources, there are plenty of others. Nobody is denying that this is how the Israeli legal system works in the West Bank.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Barnabas62
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mr cheesy, fletcher Christian

Pissing contests between mutually pissed off Shipmates belong in Hell. As you know.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Martin60
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If Israel continues to deny justice, which it will for as long as it exists (that's a prophecy that), maybe simontoad's nice Mr. Trump will allow full refugee status to all Palestinians? That's more likely than divine justice by the falsely named Israel after all. They are backslidden Jacob. Supplanter. Henceforth that's how they should be known.

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Love wins

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fletcher christian

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Posted by Martin60:
quote:

If Israel continues to deny justice, which it will for as long as it exists....

You speak of Israel like it's a monolithic identity when it is made up of people. We hear the powerful and the loud voices but can we really be sure that we hear all voices? Who really knows what the next generation will do; why condemn them to a self-fulfilling prophecy? To put it in spiritual terms: have you no faith that God might complete his work, perhaps even in spite of them?

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Og: Thread Killer
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While all this DH like discussion was going on in here, the expected happened and a Trump administration person indicated the two state solution was not dead.

This time it was the US ambassador to the UN.

Sooooo...maybe not so BREAKING or "officially dead"?

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

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TurquoiseTastic

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
If Israel continues to deny justice, which it will for as long as it exists (that's a prophecy that), maybe simontoad's nice Mr. Trump will allow full refugee status to all Palestinians? That's more likely than divine justice by the falsely named Israel after all. They are backslidden Jacob. Supplanter. Henceforth that's how they should be known.

Crikey Martin. That's pretty extreme. Why not just go for "synagogue of Satan"?
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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
While all this DH like discussion was going on in here, the expected happened and a Trump administration person indicated the two state solution was not dead.

This time it was the US ambassador to the UN.

Sooooo...maybe not so BREAKING or "officially dead"?

The two-mind solution of Trump is not dead! If he pronounces X, we can expect -X before dusk.

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no path

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Martin60:
quote:

If Israel continues to deny justice, which it will for as long as it exists....

You speak of Israel like it's a monolithic identity when it is made up of people. We hear the powerful and the loud voices but can we really be sure that we hear all voices? Who really knows what the next generation will do; why condemn them to a self-fulfilling prophecy? To put it in spiritual terms: have you no faith that God might complete his work, perhaps even in spite of them?
Aye fletch. Ten thousand years.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
If Israel continues to deny justice, which it will for as long as it exists (that's a prophecy that), maybe simontoad's nice Mr. Trump will allow full refugee status to all Palestinians? That's more likely than divine justice by the falsely named Israel after all. They are backslidden Jacob. Supplanter. Henceforth that's how they should be known.

Crikey Martin. That's pretty extreme. Why not just go for "synagogue of Satan"?
Steady on TT. And it doesn't have the nice resonance.

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Love wins

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Jane R
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mdijon:
quote:
This is probably a daft question but I don't understand the legal position. Land is owned.
Only in places where the rule of law applies. Anywhere else, land is occupied by those who can fight to defend it against others. As, for example, in the Debateable Lands on the Anglo-Scottish border before the union of the two crowns.

(Note for Americans: you will find a familiar presidential surname among the list of border clans)

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
...but to my mind there was a lesson there [(in Northern Ireland)] in terms of how peace began and peace certainly did not begin with internet forum pissing contests and righteousness competitions.

While absolute certainty is never really possible, I'm pretty sure nobody on this thread thinks that what we write here will bring about peace. So this observation, while 100% true, is also 100% irrelevant.

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Trump getting elected as President?

Only if you think 30 years of right wing propaganda and brainwashing, plus a year or more of Russian manipulation of the press, are a miracle. Otherwise it's pretty evident that Trump's election followed from natural causes.

quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by Martin60:
quote:

If Israel continues to deny justice, which it will for as long as it exists....

You speak of Israel like it's a monolithic identity when it is made up of people. We hear the powerful and the loud voices but can we really be sure that we hear all voices? Who really knows what the next generation will do; why condemn them to a self-fulfilling prophecy? To put it in spiritual terms: have you no faith that God might complete his work, perhaps even in spite of them?
Martin's statement leaves open that possibility. If the next generation changes in relevant ways, then the antecedent "if Israel continues to deny justice" will be false, obviating Martin's statement. So he is not "condemning" anybody. He's stating a perfectly obvious truth. Continuation of injustice will perpetuate the problem. Cessation of injustice is the only way to bring about peace.

quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
While all this DH like discussion was going on in here, the expected happened and a Trump administration person indicated the two state solution was not dead.

This time it was the US ambassador to the UN.

Sooooo...maybe not so BREAKING or "officially dead"?

Or the US ambassador to the UN's days are numbered in his current position.

quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
Crikey Martin. That's pretty extreme. Why not just go for "synagogue of Satan"?

Oh FFS. Can we please get over the ridiculous idea that Israel is beyond criticism because it's a Jewish state run by Jews? Like Jews can do no wrong, ever, since the Shoah? Yes, antisemites criticize Israel. From this it does not follow, however, that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. It grows fucking tiresome every time this old canard is dragged out. Give it a rest.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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TurquoiseTastic

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I see lots of people with legitimate criticisms of Israel. I don't see so many people referring to "falsely so-called Israel" or "backslidden Jacob. Supplanter". That seems unnecessary to me.
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Ricardus
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Question. How do Israelis actually justify building settlements? (I know some don't think it's justified of course, but I'm asking about those who do.)

IME, when most people do something that is (apparently) immoral, they still have some rationalisation in their head that explains why it's not really immoral at all.

So when the West (including many of Israel's supporters in the West) say that the settlements are illegal, these Israelis must think: 'What the West fails to understand about the settlements is X.' What is X?

(Yes, we can all think of cynical values for X, but they must have values of X that at least attempt to be just and moral.)

Do they regard the river Jordan as Israel's legitimate western border? If so, isn't a one-state solution pretty much the endpoint of their belief?

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I see lots of people with legitimate criticisms of Israel. I don't see so many people referring to "falsely so-called Israel" or "backslidden Jacob. Supplanter". That seems unnecessary to me.

So's a sense of humour it would seem.

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Love wins

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
This is probably a daft question but I don't understand the legal position. Land is owned.

And if I take over your country and supplant your legal system with my own, then maybe land becomes owned by someone else.

Consider land reform in former colonies. Land was owned by large white landowners. A change in governance opens up the possibility of land being taken away from white landowners and given to indigenous people. Perhaps with some degree of compensation for the ex-landowner, and perhaps not, depending on the whim of the new government.

You may take a different moral view of decolonization on the one hand, and settlement on the other, but the legal framework is pretty similar.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I see lots of people with legitimate criticisms of Israel. I don't see so many people referring to "falsely so-called Israel" or "backslidden Jacob. Supplanter". That seems unnecessary to me.

It isn't any crazier than the God backs Israel nonsense.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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TurquoiseTastic

Fish of a different color
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I see lots of people with legitimate criticisms of Israel. I don't see so many people referring to "falsely so-called Israel" or "backslidden Jacob. Supplanter". That seems unnecessary to me.

It isn't any crazier than the God backs Israel nonsense.
Yeah, I'll give you that.
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Soror Magna
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Here's one possibility for negotiating a two-state solution.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Question. How do Israelis actually justify building settlements? (I know some don't think it's justified of course, but I'm asking about those who do.)

IME, when most people do something that is (apparently) immoral, they still have some rationalisation in their head that explains why it's not really immoral at all.

So when the West (including many of Israel's supporters in the West) say that the settlements are illegal, these Israelis must think: 'What the West fails to understand about the settlements is X.' What is X?

It's their land by right.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I see lots of people with legitimate criticisms of Israel. I don't see so many people referring to "falsely so-called Israel" or "backslidden Jacob. Supplanter". That seems unnecessary to me.

I think "falsely so-called Israel" is defensible. It's not the Israel of yore. It's a new, modern state, pretending to be the Israel of yore by choice of name. (I believe that in 1948 some mumbling was heard in gentile circles over the audacity of the name. It was quickly hushed in the name of antiantisemitism.)

Anti-Zionist orthodox Jews are very upset that a nation was created called "Israel" before the return of Moshiach.

[ 18. February 2017, 03:11: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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mt--

Didn't know that last bit, though I did know that there are Jews who aren't Zionists. If the ones you mentioned think the Messiah is being upstaged, they must be furious.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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mdijon--

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Trump getting elected as President?

Aren't miracles generally things that people are pleased about? None of miraculous destruction, miraculous carnage, miraculous shit-storm seem to be good adjective-noun pairs.
IMHO, there are such things as anti-miracles. Bad stuff that inexplicably happens.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Penny S
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# 14768

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But there are people, are there not, who hold that God has ordained Trump's win for some holy purpose?
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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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Haven't all the neighbouring countries painted the Palestinians into a corner? Excessive demands such as no Israel at all, which leads to Israeli paranoid inflexibility about settlements. Where is an Anwar Sadat or Yitzak Rabin when needed? One traded peace for land, and get killed. The advocated that and got killed.

I don't think it matters who did and didn't do what 50 years ago; the history only shows only Egypt and Israel made peace. No one else has come close. History did not freeze in 1948 or 1979, and won't freeze today either. It isn't Israel's fault. It isn't Palestinians' fault. It might be moreso the neighbouring countries. But none of it matters. I do not think I will live to see peace.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Haven't all the neighbouring countries painted the Palestinians into a corner? Excessive demands such as no Israel at all, which leads to Israeli paranoid inflexibility about settlements.

I don't get the connection. I don't see how controlling the, frankly bastard, settlers has anything to do with the idea of Israel remaining a country.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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Deutsche Welle re 2 state solution. Basically, all sides suck.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Gramps49
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Actually, Jordan and Israel signed a peace agreement in 1994.
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Golden Key
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np--

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Haven't all the neighbouring countries painted the Palestinians into a corner?

Actually, Jordan has taken in so many Palestinian refugees that (IIRC) they outnumber the Jordanians. Raina, wife of the current king, is Palestinian.

I gather Jordan is overloaded with taking in Syrians, too.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17462 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

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Jordan could be the Palestian state?

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Golden Key
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Interesting idea, but I don't know how the pre-existing, non-Palestinian Jordanians would feel about that.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Jordan could be the Palestian state?

So your solution to people being dispossessed on their own land is to remove them from it completely?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16405 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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That's baiting the hook. But to respond, why not? If it is the only way to peace. And yes, of course it is unjust. War and conquest is unjust. That is how countries operate in our un-updates international realpolitik. People are expendable in that view.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
That's baiting the hook. But to respond, why not? If it is the only way to peace. And yes, of course it is unjust. War and conquest is unjust. That is how countries operate in our un-updates international realpolitik. People are expendable in that view.

It isn't a way to peace. Not only will the Palestinians and Jordan not accept this, the rest of the players will not.
There is no quick and simple solution. There are measures which can reduce tensions. First is no more fucking settlers, full stop. Another would be make the ones there stop being bell ends.
And start treating Palestinians better.
And, honestly, boot some of the settlers the Hell out.
Israel is in the driver's seat, they are the ones who can most easily alter course.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Mudfrog
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It seems to me that from the day after the State of Israel was created, when the Arabs attacked her, the Israelis just can't win.

If the entire population of Israel was to be confined to the city limits of Tel Aviv that wouldn't be enough for the Palestinian authority.

They will not be happy until there is a one state solution - that state being Palestine, and that devoid of all Jews.

[ 19. February 2017, 18:02: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Yes, that worked in the western hemisphere.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It seems to me that from the day after the State of Israel was created, when the Arabs attacked her, the Israelis just can't win.

If the entire population of Israel was to be confined to the city limits of Tel Aviv that wouldn't be enough for the Palestinian authority.

They will not be happy until there is a one state solution - that state being Palestine, and that devoid of all Jews.

That is just bullshit to excuse poor behaviour.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Mudfrog
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What, there was no attack after all on the day after Israel became a nation?

Well, that's relief; now I can believe that the Arabs are totally without blame in all of this conflict. There was me thinking the Israelis had enemies.

[ 20. February 2017, 11:07: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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lilBuddha
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Still the same bullshit. That Israel was attacked doesn't excuse their poor behaviour towards the Palestinians.
Your Jesus would agree that two wrongs do not make a right.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Mudfrog
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'My Jesus' would have said to the Arabs "Render unto Israel that which is Israel's."

The Arabs had no right to attack a UN-recognised Sovereign state; not in 1948 and not in 1967 either.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It seems to me that from the day after the State of Israel was created, when the Arabs attacked her, the Israelis just can't win.

If the entire population of Israel was to be confined to the city limits of Tel Aviv that wouldn't be enough for the Palestinian authority.

Actually all the main Palestinian factions including Hamas have said that they're willing to accept Israel within the 1967 borders.

quote:
They will not be happy until there is a one state solution - that state being Palestine, and that devoid of all Jews.
There are some Palestinian hardliners, but it is a bit much to claim that that view is the only one available. And the difference is that whereas the stated policy of the PA, Fatah and Hamas is to recognise Israel within the 1967s borders, the stated policy of the hardliners within the governemnt of Israel is to never ever ever allow Palestinian nationhood.

And, I ought to note that Israel obtained recognition from Egypt and Jordan after the 1967 war. There is full recognition of both of these neighbouring countries of Israel.

And, lest it be said that the Arab league doesn't want peace, there is even an ongoing process by the Arab league which offers recognition for a negotiated peace - re-endorced as recently as 2013.

Pragmatically, it seems that most Arab countries are prepared to accept Israel within the 1967 borders. Contrary to what some would have you believe.

[ 20. February 2017, 12:44: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
'My Jesus' would have said to the Arabs "Render unto Israel that which is Israel's."

The Arabs had no right to attack a UN-recognised Sovereign state; not in 1948 and not in 1967 either.

And Israel has no right to settle its citizens outside its borders. The difference is that that is happening now, not in 1967, not in 1948.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
And Israel has no right to settle its citizens outside its borders. The difference is that that is happening now, not in 1967, not in 1948.

Land was illegally captured in 1967 and Israel was created in 1948 from disputed land. So that's not really true.

The reality is that the Palestinians and Arab states are compromising by recognising Israel's existence within the 67 borders, which in some senses were no more theirs than any other land captured in war or created as part of a settler nation.

Incidentally, the Arab states are not at all blameless for the status quo, but instead of recognising the legitimate wish for Palestinian nationhood and the concessions available and on the table, Israel continues with the beligerant occupation mentality. Even if the Arabs are lying, as the hardliners in Israel make out, their bluff should be called if peace is really what everyone wants.

[ 20. February 2017, 14:26: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
'My Jesus' would have said to the Arabs "Render unto Israel that which is Israel's."

The Arabs had no right to attack a UN-recognised Sovereign state; not in 1948 and not in 1967 either.

My Jesus would have said to Britain, "You have no right to create a state of European immigrants in the middle east and supplant the people now living there."

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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