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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Standing With Sweden
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
quote:
Nonsense.
Parody and satire have been part of the political landscape forever. An important safety valve imo.
I am not denying that "safety valve" effect, and I am quite familiar at least with some of the political satire literature going back to ancient Greece. Nor was I speaking about satire per se.
Perhaps you have to live in the U.S. to experience the full extent and reach of the online, radio, and print world in which the Trump fanatics express their outrage. Typically, in my experience, the speaker ignores entirely the substance of anti-Trump statements or refutations, focusing instead (and obsessively) on their perception that all disagreement is insulting, condescending, and arrogant in the method of expression.
Communication methods that "work" in educated, cosmopolitan, liberal milieux seem merely to produce among Trump supporters and fellow travellers further outrage, intransigence, and a refusal to even listen.
Speaking as a leftist, I would rather see a tamping down of the rhetoric from "our" side while focusing on more useful actions: political activism, litigation in the courts, and grasping the Trump phenomenon as an opportunity for all of us to learn what rational civic discourse ought to be.
Music too. I hope the Trump silver lining is a revival of folk music. Someone's crying Lord...
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Typical Trump. Still defending the indefensible. Here is the tweet.
quote:
Give the public a break - The FAKE NEWS media is trying to say that large scale immigration in Sweden is working out just beautifully. NOT!
Rather than admit error, he stands with Fox News in its assertion that the Swedish government is massaging the news and the statistics.
I heard a Trump apologist on CNN argue that even if just one rapist or one murderer came in through less than extreme vetting, that itself was support for the argument in favour of a pause. This extreme safety first position does not sit well with an administration which sees no value in the evidence that very low homicide-by-gun figures in Sweden (national numbers lower than those in Orange County) justify a tougher gun-control policy.
Despite being presented with the facts that crime rates are lower for immigrants than for the US population in general, she persisted with the "extreme potential risks justify extreme vetting" argument.
The idea that Sweden might teach all of us a thing or two about the best practical means to be used in resettling immigrants seems to fly over the head of folks entranced by US nationalism.
I stand with Sweden.
[ 21. February 2017, 08:56: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I doubt if he's ever admitted an error in his whole life. This will be his downfall imo.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nothing can be boogie. Nothing. That would be rational. He's completely won the style 'debate'. How can he possibly go wrong talking like his constituency thinks? Even Republicans with PhDs?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
she persisted with the "extreme potential risks justify extreme vetting" argument.
I doubt she'd have much time for an argument about the extreme potential risks of an incompetant President justifying extreme vetting of candidates either.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Nothing can be boogie. Nothing. That would be rational. He's completely won the style 'debate'. How can he possibly go wrong talking like his constituency thinks? Even Republicans with PhDs?
He'll make a castastropic error and try to cover up/wriggle out of it.
He won't be tolerated indefinitely.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And like psychopaths learning to act the empathy they cannot feel, he will apologize to his constituency, even take full responsibility and will always be forgiven, when eventually politically necessary. It isn't in this case.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
There is no catastrophic error he could imaginably make.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
There is no catastrophic error he could imaginably make.
Not in his eyes, obviously. But I'm convinced there are enough sane people in the US to impeach him when he goes totally off the rails - which he will, he can't cope imo.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
According to my exhaustive research,* the people have no direct say. The House of Representatives must bring the charge and vote then the Senate must also vote with a 2/3 majority.
Even were that to happen, the Pence would be in charge and that isn't a better option.
*a quick perusal of Wikipedia
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What do we do in the mean time for the next eight years apart from wait for him to fail irremediably in his supporters' eyes?
I cannot imagine any scenario in the bounds of rational possibility that could constitute such a fail.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
There is no catastrophic error he could imaginably make.
Not in his eyes, obviously. But I'm convinced there are enough sane people in the US to impeach him when he goes totally off the rails - which he will, he can't cope imo.
What Martin and lilbuddha said.
Impeachment is above all a political action. Also according to Wikipedia, it requires a majority in the House of Representatives to commence proceedings and a 2/3 majority in the Senate to convict a sitting president.
Republicans currently hold majorities in both houses.
As I said earlier, the only way they will consider impeachment is if Trump seriously compromises their reelection chances. As far as I know there is no sign of that for now. As far as I can see the Republicans are quietly implementing their agenda while Trump provides covering fire.
As for wriggling, like all con artists he is supremely good at it - witness how he is turning this Sweden storm in a teacup to his advantage with his base. If he can't wriggle, he'll find someone else to take the fall.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Maybe I'm just getting old but this whole Sweden thing has me totally baffled. The media is half full of pictures of rioting, burnt out cars and videos of the police firing warning shots and the other half has peaceful night scenes of Stockholm. Presumably the pictures and videos of rioting etc, are fake? But where are they from?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
My grandfather had a farm near Belfast.
In the early 1970s, the IRA practice was to plant a bomb in a department store or some such, then phone in a warning; the media would rush to the scene and duly film the explosion.
I remember my grandfather complaining that this left viewers with the impression that the whole place was being permanently bombed.
In other words, media pictures are an extremely bad way of gaining an objective impression of events, still less trends.
[ 21. February 2017, 11:49: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
There is no catastrophic error he could imaginably make.
Not in his eyes, obviously. But I'm convinced there are enough sane people in the US to impeach him when he goes totally off the rails - which he will, he can't cope imo.
This may well be, but these sane people have to: a) be in sufficient numbers in the House and Senate to take care of the necessary procedures, and b) prepared to do so.
Returning to Sweden, they have from time to time exercised their own removal processes and might be said to have it to a fine art, either by deposition (Erik XIV in 1568, Sigmund in 1599, Gustav IV Adolph in 1809), or abdication (Christina in 1654 and Ulrika in 1720). Aside from poisoning Erik XIV with porridge (and who hasn't wondered this about their morning oatmeal, at least once in their lives?) and assassinating Gustav III at a masquerade party (1792), it all seems to have been fairly civilized.
It may be that, should Mr Trump vacate his position, Sweden will generously offer a site on the Gulf of Bothnia where he might recreate his life at Mar-a-Lago.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
And here, accompanying a cheerful song about a bloody and body-strewn birthday party, is a picture of the Trump Tower-substitute that might accommodate him....with, who knows?, his bloody body strewn across the floor somewhere....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQl8fURGSrA&nohtml5=False
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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teddybear
Shipmate
# 7842
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Poor moose. What a terrible trick to pull on someone. And the splinters!
Think of the moose calves, won't someone please think of the moose calves!!!!
[ 21. February 2017, 18:35: Message edited by: teddybear ]
Posts: 480 | From: Topeka, Kansas USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Maybe I'm just getting old but this whole Sweden thing has me totally baffled. The media is half full of pictures of rioting, burnt out cars and videos of the police firing warning shots and the other half has peaceful night scenes of Stockholm. Presumably the pictures and videos of rioting etc, are fake? But where are they from?
Google image search may provide clues.
But it certainly wouldn't be the first time that a picture is attributed to a location other than its true location.
However, my own quick bit of googling indicates some form of riot in a suburb of Stockholm not long AFTER Trump's comment. So maybe he's not wrong, maybe he's just secretly from the future.
[ 22. February 2017, 01:29: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I heard a Trump apologist on CNN argue that even if just one rapist or one murderer came in through less than extreme vetting, that itself was support for the argument in favour of a pause.
Which is nonsense, because the base rate of rape and murder in the US from US-born folk is not zero. If immigrants are shown to have a lower rape and murder rate than locals, then it is an argument for increasing immigration.
EDIT: This is also the reason a single riot in a Stockholm suburb proves absolutely nothing one way or the other. It's yet another case of people using weather events to make claims about the climate.
[ 22. February 2017, 01:34: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Returning to Sweden, they have from time to time exercised their own removal processes and might be said to have it to a fine art, either by deposition (Erik XIV in 1568, Sigmund in 1599, Gustav IV Adolph in 1809), or abdication (Christina in 1654 and Ulrika in 1720). Aside from poisoning Erik XIV with porridge (and who hasn't wondered this about their morning oatmeal, at least once in their lives?) and assassinating Gustav III at a masquerade party (1792), it all seems to have been fairly civilized.
It may be that, should Mr Trump vacate his position, Sweden will generously offer a site on the Gulf of Bothnia where he might recreate his life at Mar-a-Lago.
Verdi was well aware of the murderous reality of Swedish life and its manifestation in terrorist activitiess - think of A Masked Ball with the assassination of Gustav III. The current terorist domination of Swedish life has a long histpoy.
[ 22. February 2017, 01:37: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Sweden also invaded Russia in the winter, which proves they're (a) bloodthirsty warmongers, and (b) stupid.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Which is nonsense, because the base rate of rape and murder in the US from US-born folk is not zero. If immigrants are shown to have a lower rape and murder rate than locals, then it is an argument for increasing immigration.
Immigrants do commit fewer crimes than citizens. See here. This is true whether we're comparing uneducated border jumpers with their American peers or imported PhDs with their US peers. I could offer a couple of possible explanations. First, the penalties for immigrant crime are higher: you get kicked out of the US. Second, most people who take up a criminal lifestyle don't see a viable alternative. It seems to me likely that people who have chosen to migrate are more likely to see alternatives. Third, serious criminal convictions are a bar to legal immigration. Most crime is committed by repeat offenders, and most of them have a record starting in their youth or young adulthood. So by construction the pool of legal immigrants must contain fewer criminals than the wider population.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
According to my exhaustive research,* the people have no direct say. The House of Representatives must bring the charge and vote then the Senate must also vote with a 2/3 majority.
There's talk going round that a state's attourney general could bring a quo warranto writ against the Trump organization over the emoluments issue, rather than going after the President personally.
It seems a bit far-fetched to me, but you never know.
[ 22. February 2017, 04:52: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Sweden also invaded Russia in the winter, which proves they're (a) bloodthirsty warmongers, and (b) stupid.
More evidence to confirm that Trump was correct.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Sweden also invaded Russia in the winter, which proves they're (a) bloodthirsty warmongers, and (b) stupid.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) A great satire of the ill-informed soundbites that bear little relation to actual events that the President practices.
A winter invasion allowed the Swedish army the opportunity to just walk across frozen rivers that would have been major barriers to their advance later in the year. If Russian forces hadn't retreated so quickly, the Swedes would have engaged in battle just one month into the campaign bringing superior forces against the Russian Tsar - which would have made the operation a stunning success. Though, the invasion continued throughout the summer, another winter, finally ending in defeat during the summer 18 months after the invasion. Invasion in winter was a risky but inspired strategy that a) very nearly came off and b) wasn't a factor in the eventual defeat.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
orfeo is right of course. What is bothersome is that the riot which did occur came after Trump's mistaken statements. After does not necessarily mean because of, but it makes you wonder about the provocative effects of careless talk. I think the Swedes have done very well in their policies and approaches, which is not to say that the welcoming of immigrants doesn't produce some rubbing edges.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
What I note is that we are now all talking about riots in Sweden instead of anything to do with the US.
The guy truly is a master of deflection and the media follow like a bunch of chihuahas with their dog-walker.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
The only effect of satire is to keep up the spirits of the losing side. Witness Brexit.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
And not just Sweden. Here's strong evidence that New Zealand, a country known for its soft immigration policy, is also a hotbed of terrorism, as admitted by its own Prime Minister.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What I note is that we are now all talking about riots in Sweden instead of anything to do with the US.
The guy truly is a master of deflection and the media follow like a bunch of chihuahas with their dog-walker.
Sure is. But he is creating an unforgettable record of assholery despite all of that. Things add up in time.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
He'd have to lose a war, get Kwajalein nuked by Kim Wrong Un, for people even to pause in adoring him for pretending to be them. There is no tipping point in accumulated assholery that could possibly make his constituency wake up, to what?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Clint Boggis
Shipmate
# 633
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What I note is that we are now all talking about riots in Sweden instead of anything to do with the US.
The guy truly is a master of deflection and the media follow like a bunch of chihuahas with their dog-walker.
You're right. Maybe news media should have a "Trump's Agenda" sidebar to collect and 'report' the attempts at deflection but very deliberately concentrate on actual news for headlines and main reports.
Also they ought to not engage in his Admin's Press Conferences but just place a camera to record it and summarise later anything of interest that was said and completely ignore the anti-media hype - which isn't news.
[ 22. February 2017, 12:58: Message edited by: Clint Boggis ]
Posts: 1505 | From: south coast | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
he is creating an unforgettable record of assholery despite all of that. Things add up in time.
I don't think so.
There is such an unrelenting barrage of this stuff, and it is so superficial, that it quickly becomes impossible to keep up with it or prioritise it.
How many Daily Mail front page stories can you remember from the past year?
It's popcorn, that's all. Trying to criticise it will look stupid and petty.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
He'd have to lose a war, get Kwajalein nuked by Kim Wrong Un, for people even to pause in adoring him for pretending to be them. There is no tipping point in accumulated assholery that could possibly make his constituency wake up, to what?
However, Martin, as Abraham Lincoln, one of Trump's more august predecessors in office, may or may not have said,
quote:
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
That was before the days of social media.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Because important messages are delivered with so much more authority as Tweets.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Yes, I'd say that's precisely the perception of typical Trump supporters. Have you seen this video?
[ 22. February 2017, 14:29: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Trump is a prophet!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I think that fundamentally Trump is an entertainer.
And, especially at his rallies, his supporters look very unlike traditional political activists and much more like fans.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Trump is a prophet!
Of what or whom?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
he is creating an unforgettable record of assholery despite all of that. Things add up in time.
I don't think so.
There is such an unrelenting barrage of this stuff, and it is so superficial, that it quickly becomes impossible to keep up with it or prioritise it.
Polls are, understandably, under deep suspicion these days, but according to CNN this morning Trump's popularity rating has dropped by 4% points (from 42 to 38) in the past few weeks.
How diehard are his diehard supporters, and how many are there? Well, we'll see.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Trump is a prophet!
Of what or whom?
Sweden!!!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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