homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » The Bishop of Blackburn on listening

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.    
Source: (consider it) Thread: The Bishop of Blackburn on listening
bad man
Apprentice
# 17449

 - Posted      Profile for bad man     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The Bishop of Blackburn talked about his idea of "listening" in his speech to Synod in defence of the bishops' report on Marriage and Same Sex Relationships after the Shared Conversations. I know the report and its subject matter are Dead Horses so this post is just about his idea of what constitutes listening.

He said:

quote:
"...this is the key issue, we need to understand what “listening” means. It means hearing, but not necessarily agreeing with what is heard. It’s a mistake to conflate listening with agreement. A person who receives and understands information and then chooses not to comply with it has listened to the speaker even though the result is not what the speaker wanted. Listening is therefore a term in which the listener listens to the one who produced the sound to be listened, and you can change the letters of the word “listen” to be reformed to spell “silent”.
This seems to me a really breathtaking example of someone who has no idea what proper listening involves.

Surely you have to listen in a way which shows that you have heard and taken on board what is being said - which is, of course, particularly important when you are not in agreement. When you agree, your subsequent actions show that you have heard. When you disagree, you have to reflect back what you have heard, in order to show to the person speaking that you have understood - and in order to confirm to yourself that you have correctly understood.

It seems incredible that a person whose job is to pastor thinks that listening is a sort of power play ("comply with information") or that it is in any sense tantamount to "silence".

I also find it disturbing that he describes the person being listened to as "the one who produced the sound to be listened", as if communication is only about "sound" rather than all the other things that a speaker, especially a vulnerable speaker, conveys, and all the many ways in which important parts of the message are conveyed non-verbally.

Can someone please teach him about the well known research into good listening, including “reflective listening”, “active listening”, and “radical listening”?

He might also benefit from a quick read of Krznaric's article on the BBC website. "Can you teach people to have empathy?"

[ 23. February 2017, 16:29: Message edited by: bad man ]

Posts: 49 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Nov 2012  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Hard to respond without sounding hellish, but I suppose it is fair to say that there are different kinds of listening, just as there are different kinds of discussing - and I'm not sure it is a given that the one who is properly listening necessarily takes on board what the person is saying. That seems, in and of itself, a value statement - this person hasn't engaged with what I'm saying so hasn't really listened to me.

I suppose we might think of extreme examples; a Neo-Nazi might want to tell us all about his philosophy and theology of white power, and a (very adult) person might be able to listen carefully to what they're saying without slugging them. But if one disagrees on-or-near first principles then there isn't much alternative than to listen for the words that are being used and trying to follow the internal logic. What else can you do?

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10136 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
May it not be the Bishop's listening which defective, but his way of talking about it?

Having said that, I personally can't see much that's wrong with his comments!

Posts: 9403 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That's the problem.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16863 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

 - Posted      Profile for Albertus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
May it not be the Bishop's listening which defective, but his way of talking about it?

Having said that, I personally can't see much that's wrong with his comments!

Nor me.

--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6448 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Indeed, I thought he was addressing the sort of people who think that it is morally wrong to listen to certain arguments because that counts as 'validating' or 'legitimising' them.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7158 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I can't see anything at all wrong with what the Bishop said. "Taking on board" - what does that mean? If it means acknowedging that the speaker has an opinion, that's quite ok, but the usual meaning here of that phrase is that what's been said is somewhere between complete garbage and utter nonsense.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6695 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The problem with the excerpt from bishop's statement is that it is incomplete.
In the context of this situation, it is not enough to hear and understand. One must address the concerns as well or having listened becomes functionally the same as having ignored.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16911 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The problem with the excerpt from bishop's statement is that it is incomplete.
In the context of this situation, it is not enough to hear and understand. One must address the concerns as well or having listened becomes functionally the same as having ignored.

Yes!

Therapists have their place when people are traumatised and hurting. But the time comes for problem solving, action and moving forward - finding strategies which work.

How long has the C of E been talking and listening? [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12651 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Blackburn's 'logic' may be behind the latest stunt from ++Justin in Africa.

After all, what better way can an ABC choose to show his feelings after a Report he personally commended to the Synod had been rejected by his fellow clergy than to use a speech in Rwanda to contrast the numbers attending (implying 'faithfulness') of the church there with the CofE.

Yes, we all know the ABC wears two hats but surely wearing his 'Anglican Communion' hat shouldn't mean he feels free to diss the church he comes from.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4672 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm not sure I get the point in the sentence with the pun on the spelling of the words 'silent' and 'listen'. Nevertheless, however much this may annoy some people, the Bishop of Blackburn is making a valid point.

It's a misuse of all the pieties about 'listening' and 'conversations' if at the end of them, group A among those that have taken part condemns the other participants, whether groups B, C, D or whoever, for not ending up agreeing with them. It's not even recognising that there has to be a legitimacy in B, C or D being allowed to say,
"I feel you're pain, but I still think you're wrong", or
"I've heard everything you've said, but you still haven't persuaded me".

If group A don't recognise that, it's difficult not to draw the conclusion that for all the pieties about 'listening' and 'conversations', group A has participated in the entire process on the basis that B, C and D are obliged to listen to A but A isn't under any comparable obligation to listen to B, C and D. That's a dishonest participation. It is group A saying that throughout, the only acceptable outcome has been for B, C and D to agree with where A was both before and after the entire process.

Now of course, I'm only commenting on this in the abstract. I couldn't possibly be relating this to any particular listening exercise or conversations.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7311 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Blackburn's 'logic' may be behind the latest stunt from ++Justin in Africa.

After all, what better way can an ABC choose to show his feelings after a Report he personally commended to the Synod had been rejected by his fellow clergy than to use a speech in Rwanda to contrast the numbers attending (implying 'faithfulness') of the church there with the CofE.

Yes, we all know the ABC wears two hats but surely wearing his 'Anglican Communion' hat shouldn't mean he feels free to diss the church he comes from.

To which 'stunt' are you referring? Can you provide a link?


Whatever the reference, I haven't heard what he has said. But as a general principle members of the CofE should take far more seriously than we do, what the seriousness with which many African Christians take their faith says to the low level of Christian faith in contemporary England.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7311 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It says that they are less educated.

[ 24. February 2017, 13:47: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16863 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It says that they are less educated.

How very patronising, Martin.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7311 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sorry?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16863 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged


 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools