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Source: (consider it) Thread: Home Schooling
Ethne Alba
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A few thoughts.

For three months i Did home school, while one of mine was waiting for a place at a collective of homeschoolers, 5-16yrs.

My reasons for choosing that collective (which functioned like a school and was inspected) was that That child required something other than a regular school. All my others went to regular schools; well, one on a sponsored place at a private school, two at separate local comps and one at a C/E high school.

One member of my extended family required home schooling as his additional needs were unable to be met at state schools. The education department provided the home schooling.

Some children who are home schooled have additional needs, this might show up as interesting behaviour to people looking on.
Then again, on a regular basis i see quite appalling behaviour from children who go to regular school, but i don't blame their schooling for their behaviour.

My own thoughts on the matter of homeschooling are that if the schools provided by our country are suitable for my children, then it would be nuts to do anything other than send them to the nearest one! Time. Money. It's a no brainer.
However were i to decide to choose another provision, that is my right.
It's also the right of other parents to spend all the grandparents money on private schooling.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I think home schooling should be illegal. Children do not 'belong' to their parents.

So what do you do when yoou're on a cattle station 300 km from the nearest tarred road, you've had several bad seasons in a row, and while the bank will keep you going in a general sense, it says that there's no money for school fees? I suspect that you home school with the support of School of the Air.

Ethne Alba, for as long as I can recall, the Education Departments of the various States here have run correspondance schools for exactly that sort of pupil. In the old days, work would be posted out each week, and sent back at the beginning of the next. There was some sort of assistance for the parents in setting out how the work should be approached. The correspondance schools were said to be where teaches who could not face classes would be sent.

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anoesis
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Plus some kids with health problems can't go out to school. And some families travel a lot, taking home-schooling materials with them.

I've been following this conversation with interest, despite only having posted the once, and I'll just take the opportunity here to note how great it is to live in a country where we're all a bunch of pinkos, compared to the US. Education in NZ is state-funded and the curriculum is the same across the whole nation. None of this 'school district' nonsense. Now, I won't deny that there are problems with it (deciles, anyone?), but neither of the two factors Golden Key has identified are problems.

Children whose parents are itinerant by virtue of their careers, or whose parents decide to do something "out there", like sail around the world on a 6m yacht (I knew some of these folk), are still eligible to receive a free state education. They just do it by post (actually, it's possible that quite a bit of it is done online now, it's been a while since I was involved with it).

In terms of children who have health issues which make school, as it is done by most, difficult to manage, well, there is the following. Kids who spend months and months and months in cancer or rehab wards, in hospital, are able to continue their education from hospital, they are not left to fall behind. Neither they nor their parents have to pay. Near where I used to live, there was a special school for children with major physical disabilities - see here. The school is free to attend for qualifying students. So is transport to and from. The school also operates classrooms in regular schools nearby, integrating children into regular school activities wherever possible, see here. Additionally, in my daughter's first year of school, there was a boy in her class with mild cerebral palsy, fully integrated with all classroom activities. He had an in-class teacher aide part-time. Last year my daughter was in a class with a girl with a cochlear implant. She is running one year behind her age group due to reading difficulties (hardly surprising given the nature of her disability). She has an in-class teacher aide. This year my youngest is in a class with another boy with mild cerebral palsy. He has a teacher aide. I have spent time in all these classrooms, and my observation is that the rest of the children are entirely accepting of these children's 'difference' and don't question it any more than the wearing of glasses or something like that. It works, people. It may cost money but it's the sort of thing I'm happy to have my taxes go toward. I'm appalled at the idea that there may be parents out there who have already been handed a raw deal in life, and then find that the education system has nothing to offer their child.

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Lothlorien
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An interesting read here, Gee D , on the history of Blackfriars as theCorresponedence School was known for years. It used to be betweenthe oldGrace Bros on Broadway and Redfern . The school still exists under a different name and having adopted some more up to date methods.

Gee D, you are right about the staff there. Competent teachers,provided they didn't have to ctually stand in front of a class.

On a side note, we bought a doubleroom wooden portable when Blackfriars closed and had it taken by a semi to our land at Wollombi where we reassembled it like a giant jigsaw puzzle. That 's a whole different story.

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
So what do you do when yoou're on a cattle station 300 km from the nearest tarred road, you've had several bad seasons in a row, and while the bank will keep you going in a general sense, it says that there's no money for school fees? I suspect that you home school with the support of School of the Air.

Here students of primary age in remote areas have a primary school, even if that means a teacher going to them rather than the other way around. At secondary level it means boarding (weekly), with travel and accommodation paid for by the government. There are special "scholar flights" to get students home at weekends to some islands. I would presume that if a government were to make homeschooling illegal (not something I'd support, though better regulation would be a good idea) then they would need to make similar provision.
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Athrawes
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I have worked as a Governess, using School of Distance Education materials, with a supervising teacher, and again as a teacher in a country town, when we worked closely with the School of Distance Education teachers when they ran mini-schools, and had inter-school sports etc. My experience of this system is very different to those of Lothlorien and GeeD. It may have been a haven for non-classroom teachers in the past, but Distance Ed teachers are now expected to be actively involved in class activities, whether at mini-schools, (where kids get together for a week or 10 days to work as a class) and also as part of the community, or when students come into town. Some of the Distance Ed teachers were exceptional, but all of them were expected to have had regular classes, and be able to manage them.

I have only come across one family who home-schooled for religious reasons. All the others have been due to distance, or because of travelling. The Distance Ed lessons are based on the Australian Curriculum, and are excellent materials. I wasn't too keen on the religious program my friend was using for her daughter - it seemed to be lacking in rigour. How typical this was, I couldn't say.

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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.

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Lothlorien
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Athrawes, my comment about staff was true at one time. What you did when you worked there was quite a different thing. Early on, the staff at Blacfriars opened lessons sent back, corrected them, made comments and sent out more. Nothing like your experience at all. (Ex teacher here.)

Remember too that not only have methods changed but so have facilities. Even transport by station plane to town and similar. The actual distances may be the same but the manner of dealing with them is different.

[ 07. March 2017, 09:50: Message edited by: Lothlorien ]

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L'organist
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We - mainly me in the event - home-schooled our two for a brief period. They'd been at the local CofE primary with no problems, although not much sign of progress either, and then in Year 2 got a teacher who was a nightmare: kept mixing the twins up, punished them if they corrected the mis-identification, made fun of their slight stature, moved them back 3 stages on a reading scheme, etc. For 2 months we tried to sort it out with the Head but she was useless (it later transpired she and the NQT had been personal friends for 15+ years) and at half-term in the autumn we decided we had to do something because children who had been really keen on school were tearful and dreading going back.

We wrote to the LA to say we were withdrawing children and asked for help in finding new school but no help forthcoming; and since it was (is) badged as a CofE school we also contacted the Diocesan Education people, who took 5 weeks to reply and then only to say they couldn't help.

In the meantime the twins needed looking after in a purposeful way so we worked out a timetable of activities and projects and just got on with it.

When it became clear this situation was likely to go on for the rest of the academic year I picked the brains of friends who were, or had been, in teaching and tweaked a bit and then we just got on with it, while making sure plans were in place for Year 3 onwards. I also got help from a dyslexia specialist - something that hadn't happened at school.

We observed school terms in the sense of making sure the boys were free at half-term when their friends in school were also available for things. Other than that, we started the day much earlier and "worked" through until lunch, then the afternoon was for sport and fun or for going to museums, libraries, etc.

It was hard work but it was the right decision for us, and the verdict at the school they started at in the following September was that it had been a very positive thing for them; academically they were on a par with their peers and socially they were just fine.

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Gee D
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Arethosemyfeet, travel to a primary school? They may well be the only children of that age for a couple of hundred kilometers. The population density of the areas I'm talking of is very, very low. You just can't establish a primary school in such a location even one to which a teacher would travel. You have School of the Air instead.

There used be free boarding offered for secondary students with weekly travel thrown in. From memory, that ceased in WW II and was not revived after. The travel was by train. I can see how a flight for a dozen - even a half dozen children to an island would be useful. The journey from the airfield to home would not be that great. In the remote areas of the Northern Territory, you would be dropping of a couple of siblings here, then a 20 minute flight to drop someone else off and so forth. No one central place would be suitable.

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Moo

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Some American parents home-school because their children have ADHD, and they refuse to give them drugs.

The parents know how to manage their kids. The classroom teacher, even if she has this knowledge, has to consider all the other students and their rights.

Moo

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Arethosemyfeet, travel to a primary school? They may well be the only children of that age for a couple of hundred kilometers. The population density of the areas I'm talking of is very, very low. You just can't establish a primary school in such a location even one to which a teacher would travel. You have School of the Air instead.

There used be free boarding offered for secondary students with weekly travel thrown in. From memory, that ceased in WW II and was not revived after. The travel was by train. I can see how a flight for a dozen - even a half dozen children to an island would be useful. The journey from the airfield to home would not be that great. In the remote areas of the Northern Territory, you would be dropping of a couple of siblings here, then a 20 minute flight to drop someone else off and so forth. No one central place would be suitable.

This is parallel to historical wester Canada. One room schools in every town, which were built every 12 to 15 miles along rail lines. If too far to travel each day, partiularly in winter, you boarded, usually with a town family. Today the rule is no more than 45 minutes on a school bus for high school which is usually in larger centres. Though K-12 schools are common. With 13 years of school maybe comprised of 100 kids.

Switching schools Canada-wide is common. Mid-year and between. It isn't too bad when curriculums are provincial and provinces share with each other.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gee D:
[qb] ]This is parallel to historical wester Canada. One room schools in every town, which were built every 12 to 15 miles along rail lines. If too far to travel each day, partiularly in winter, you boarded, usually with a town family. Today the rule is no more than 45 minutes on a school bus for high school which is usually in larger centres. Though K-12 schools are common. With 13 years of school maybe comprised of 100 kids.

Mr. Cliffdweller began his career teaching grades 6-7 in a small school in an isolated logging town with a population of about 100 in British Columbia. When the kids graduated from his class they went via the one daily train to high school in a town more than an hour or more away.

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Kaplan Corday
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I have not contributed since the OP, but have followed the responses, which have been very informative, with interest.

Thank you.

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Lothlorien
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What is described in Canada is not the scene here as GeeD properly describes. Some children who bus to school, or are more likely driven by their mum from their station to school can spend four hours every single school day just for transport.

Some children have a thirty minute drive or more from their home to the farmgate for any bus to collect them. Then transport to town.

Meetings can be arranges with notice of pupilsfromschoolmof the air classes which are now more school by computer than by pedal radio.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I teach undergrads just out of high school here in the US. My classes are about an even mix of students who were homeschooled, went to public school, went to private (almost always religious) schools. ...

Cliffdweller, by the assumptions here, unless your college draws on a very arcane self-selecting demographic, that is a truly extraordinary statistic. The parallel for state, private and religious schools doesn't, of course, transpose as our school system is different and includes religious schools that are part of the state system. But if ⅓ of your pupils have been homeschooled right through to the end of secondary school, presumably the equivalent of our A levels, that is a world that is so different from ours that it really does render comparison almost pointless.

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Ethne Alba
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In the collective of home schoolers we regularly had American families over for a few years at a time. From getting to know them it became obvious that in some areas in the States, home schooling appears to be almost main-stream....one of a number of options.... with no one batting an eyelid.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I think home schooling should be illegal. Children do not 'belong' to their parents.

So what do you do when yoou're on a cattle station 300 km from the nearest tarred road, you've had several bad seasons in a row, and while the bank will keep you going in a general sense, it says that there's no money for school fees? I suspect that you home school with the support of School of the Air.

Ethne Alba, for as long as I can recall, the Education Departments of the various States here have run correspondance schools for exactly that sort of pupil. In the old days, work would be posted out each week, and sent back at the beginning of the next. There was some sort of assistance for the parents in setting out how the work should be approached. The correspondance schools were said to be where teaches who could not face classes would be sent.

Hard cases make bad laws.
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
leo:
quote:
Children do not 'belong' to their parents.
They don't belong to you either. Or the state.
'It takes a village to raise a child.' So children in a village/suburb should be educated together.

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Callan
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We seriously thought about it a couple of years ago when I moved to new parish and the LEA wanted to send the Callanette to a school 1.9 miles away (the legal limit is 2 miles). The local primary was happy to offer her a place on the grounds that they knew that someone was moving away, and that is where she ended up, after a term. In the end we didn't because I couldn't very well have hit the ground running in a new parish and given my daughter a full time education and Mrs Callan's job would not have given her the time either. So she spent a term commuting to the next village until her place came up. As it happened no damage was done and her (temporary) class teacher was incredibly good. But if the school had been rubbish we would have bitten the bullet until the place we wanted came up. The state education system in the UK isn't so good that one can say that a state education is invariably better than a couple of reasonably well educated parents in every context, much as one would wish it to be the case.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Hard cases make bad laws.

So what would you do?

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I teach undergrads just out of high school here in the US. My classes are about an even mix of students who were homeschooled, went to public school, went to private (almost always religious) schools. ...

Cliffdweller, by the assumptions here, unless your college draws on a very arcane self-selecting demographic, that is a truly extraordinary statistic. The parallel for state, private and religious schools doesn't, of course, transpose as our school system is different and includes religious schools that are part of the state system. But if ⅓ of your pupils have been homeschooled right through to the end of secondary school, presumably the equivalent of our A levels, that is a world that is so different from ours that it really does render comparison almost pointless.
This being just one of many issues probably where that is the case.

I will say mine is an evangelical institution in a largely Catholic community, so to some degree it is drawing from an "arcane self-selecting demographic", given that home-schooling in the US seems to particularly appeal to evangelicals, while a large segment of private schools are Catholic. Still, at the risk of seeming presumptuous, I think my experience has some bearing on this discussion because it does, in fact, allow me to observe all three paradigms in roughly equal numbers and directly measure the ability of each paradigm to prepare students for higher ed.

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Cod
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Leo,

My home-schooled relations do activities together with other children from the home-schooling community. I understand this is quite normal. So they are being raised by the village, just not as defined by you.

Your last post has received a number of thoughtful responses - don't you think it would be polite to engage with them rather than offering another one-liner?

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anoesis
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quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
Leo, My home-schooled relations do activities together with other children from the home-schooling community. I understand this is quite normal. So they are being raised by the village, just not as defined by you.

It's not the same. Firstly, the amount of time spent with children other than siblings is vastly less than in a school. Secondly, going to museums or parks together with other children is not the same as learning alongside others at the same age and stage, doing group projects, etc. Thirdly, (and I know this problem exists within schools as well, to some extent), it is a self-selecting group, and has a very high chance of being homogeneous with regards to worldviews, and unfortunately a pretty high chance of being homogeneous with regards to income, family structure, ethnicity, etc.

I mean, partly, I am glad that my children go to school because I am a lazy-ass parent who couldn't organise my way out of a paper bag, and who would really, actually, go nuts if I had to listen to that much noise all day, every day - but partly I'm glad they go to school because they meet people who are different, who have different home lives, different values, who do things differently, and they can see, right in front of their eyes, that it is possible for all these different people to get along, to work beside one another, to achieve together.

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- Jon Stewart on Bruce Springsteen -

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Athrawes
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Leo, do you realise that Distance Education *is a school*? It is run with the same structure, with the same curriculum as the rest of the State or Territory where it is based, with well qualified teachers, and face to face lessons via the Internet. Students get together for sports days, mini-schools and other events, such as PCAP music lessons and camps.

If you live on a property (as I did, and as my mother did, too) that is at least two or three hours drive away from the nearest small town, then sending your 5 year old to school on a bus, or driving them in is not an option. It might be worth remembering that Australia and Canada are very much bigger than the UK, with much more empty space between places. Or are you saying that farmers shouldn't have kids? Distance Ed is not a perfect solution to the problems of isolation, but it is pretty good.

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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.

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Lothlorien
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You make a good point there, Athrawes.

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Barnabas Aus
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I have been the principal of a small K-6 bush school, and have also sat in on School of the Air lessons in both NSW and Queensland. The School of the Air staff are highly skilled, but the success of the program really comes from the combined approach of staff and parents [or governess]. It is this teamwork which ensures that these isolated children do so well. The fact that the lessons are delivered in accordance with a mandated curriculum allows these children learning opportunities which are available to urban students across the country, even to the learning of Japanese in far western Queensland.

When travelling in western Queensland some years ago, we met a young family as we lunched in a park at a little place called Tambo. They lived on a cattle station between the Flinders Highway and the Gulf of Carpentaria. Their nearest neighbours were over 50km away. They were driving south to pick up a part for a machine at Roma, a 1200+km journey one way, and had chosen to stop at Tambo, as the grandparents were due to arrive on a coach tour. Without that joyful stop, which we witnessed, grandparents and grandchildren would have seen each other only once in a twelvemonth. I hope this gives others some sense of the isolation in remote Australia.

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Ethne Alba
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Anodises...i think that it was me who mentioned something about museums, community garden centres ...but not parks...and art galleries?

The home schooling activities in these semi-public areas....in our city anyway...are not just Going To these places, with a whole heap of other children with the very same world view as the next family.

The families in question are very different indeed, they all have varying reasons for homeschooling and lots of the families include children who go onto either university or careers in business. By no manner of means are they families who wish to shield their children from the ills or dangers of society.
The work is split up into roughly age appropriate groups and is project led, that is the whole point of accessing specialist outside resources


I'm hearing an everso slightly prejudicial set of opinions here. But i guess that is to be expected as our experiences do go some way to forming our opinions.

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John Holding

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What strikes me is that the more I hear that home-schooling is all right, because "we" get together with other homeschoolers, and go on trips to museums with other homeschoolers and, in the higher years, cooperate with other parents who have expertise in maths to trade off with my expertise in english, the more we approximate an actual school. Who is fooling whom?

Meanwhile, back to the original post, the question was about whether the state should, essentially, impose standards and vet the teaching at whatever is being called home-schooling. I haven't noticed comments from either supporters of home-schooling or oppponents.

Clearly there are some circumstances where home-schooling is the only option, such as the kinds of distances mentioned in Australia...but not so much today in Canada. But I'm highly suspicious of the idea that the ordinary parent has the time or the skill or the knowledge to provide the equivalent of what is taught in the state schools of my experience.

The only home schooler I know has produced several children (which is itself a problem for her), who are "taught" by looking at an hour long video every day, who go to a playgroup with other homeschoolers once a week, and who have next to no ianvolvement with other children. I think she expects her oldest to just slide seamlessly into the public highschool. Anecdotes are or course not data, but in the absence of imposed standards of content and inspection, I suggest that an awful lot of homeschoolers are more like her than are like some of the admirable paragons we've also heard about.

John

[ 09. March 2017, 16:09: Message edited by: John Holding ]

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
Leo,

My home-schooled relations do activities together with other children from the home-schooling community. I understand this is quite normal. So they are being raised by the village, just not as defined by you.

That's good - though who decides which children go - do home-schooled kids miss out on meeting people from a different background/class/faith/sexuality?
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Hard cases make bad laws.

So what would you do?
Allow exceptions but not allow home-schooling for anyone who wants it for whatever reason, especially fo narrow religious types who want to indoctrinate.

[ 09. March 2017, 16:12: Message edited by: leo ]

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Athrawes:
Leo, do you realise that Distance Education *is a school*? It is run with the same structure, with the same curriculum as the rest of the State or Territory where it is based, with well qualified teachers, and face to face lessons via the Internet. Students get together for sports days, mini-schools and other events, such as PCAP music lessons and camps.

So it isn't really 'home schooling' then so isn't open to the sort of criticisms voiced by some of us here.

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Ethne Alba
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So, will these imposed standards also apply to private fee paying schools?
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:

Meanwhile, back to the original post, the question was about whether the state should, essentially, impose standards and vet the teaching at whatever is being called home-schooling. I haven't noticed comments from either supporters of home-schooling or oppponents.

Of course it should.
quote:

Clearly there are some circumstances where home-schooling is the only option, such as the kinds of distances mentioned in Australia...but not so much today in Canada. But I'm highly suspicious of the idea that the ordinary parent has the time or the skill or the knowledge to provide the equivalent of what is taught in the state schools of my experience.

Teaching isn't simply a matter of opening a book or sharing one's own knowledge. Teaching is a skill. Most of us will have experienced the good and the bad of formal school teachers. But there is at least a standard. Can you imagine the variations in ability allowed with no standard for the educator?

Theee are practical reason as to why homeschooling should remain legal. Unfortunately, the many of its proponents I have met are an advert against the practice.

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
Leo,

My home-schooled relations do activities together with other children from the home-schooling community. I understand this is quite normal. So they are being raised by the village, just not as defined by you.

That's good - though who decides which children go - do home-schooled kids miss out on meeting people from a different background/class/faith/sexuality?
To be fair, though, I should think the vast majority of people who have a problem with 'difference' have indeed been to school. Even in the great ole US of A? Certainly in the UK.
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Yerevan
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quote:
Thirdly, (and I know this problem exists within schools as well, to some extent), it is a self-selecting group, and has a very high chance of being homogeneous with regards to worldviews, and unfortunately a pretty high chance of being homogeneous with regards to income, family structure, ethnicity, etc.
My experience here in the UK (and I've lived in three quite different places since becoming a parent)is that particular state school intakes can be exceptionally 'self-selecting', partly because of high levels of socio-economic segregation in society generally, partly because wealthier 'aspirational' parents / prospective parents will deliberately opt to live near an academically successful school, which pushes up rental & property prices and excludes lower income people, and partly because once you leave the major cities behind much of the UK isn't terribly diverse in ethnic, cultural or religious terms or all that mobile (i.e. people tend to live in or near their hometown). And that's even before you enter the realm of private schooling. I can think of plenty of children I know who won't actually meet many people who aren't like them and their parents via school. On a personal level my son's current school is genuinely very diverse in socio-economic terms but utterly monocultural in every other way - I could imagine a regional homeschooling network actually being quite a bit more mixed.
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Yerevan
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...and of course quite a lot of UK state schools have a religious ethos of one sort or another, and a reasonable minority of state secondaries are gender-specific.
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
So, will these imposed standards also apply to private fee paying schools?

I'd abolish such schools.

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Golden Key
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leo-

If I'm understanding you correctly, every kid should go to a public/state school, with the same curriculum? Why, please?

Thx.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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I will answer from the western Canadian perspective, where almost no one goes to a private school (they exist, but are rare, mostly religious or hoidy-toidy holdovers from the late 19th century). Schools being the same for all, with a common, equally high quality education, where kids from rich and poor, educated and functionally illiterate parents, immigrants who barely speak English and those whose ancestors arrived 120 years ago, are all collected together, and proceed their education on ability. Not because parents have money or some inherited status. It is a great social class leveller. We have been bad with indigenous peoples in this and many other ways.

The results are that people grow up with great disrespect of title and priviledge. No one cares much who your parents are and your claim to fame. It is about ability. We see some shifts in attitude as kids grow up in affluence, and it seems different in the east which have old money. But it is still all publicly funded schools, all responding to requirements of common provincial curriculums.

[ 11. March 2017, 04:41: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'd abolish such schools.

I would not abolish such schools because my distrust of the state is greater than my concern about equality.

As it happens, I also regard quality as more important than equality. Even if it gives them a head start in life, I'd rather some people could go to really good schools than that everybody goes to mediocre ones.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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In favour of elitism? Old boys club of fancy expensive schools educated running things? I think it it probably special privately funded schools which help create the state you don't trust.

Also wonder if that is why Brexit. Your people don't trust the elite educated people running your country. That is the view from here.

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We must learn to live in harmony with nature. If we don't cease believing we can master and dominate it, life on Earth may be destroyed.
(formerly known more succinctly as "no prophet"), either way not be taken seriously. \_(ツ)_/

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Ethne Alba
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Thanks Leo!
I had a kinda feeling that this answer would arrive.

So, we have Keep a wide variety of education provision for young people in the UK
OR
Scrap the lot of 'em....and then half the conservative party would get upset.

(Not that upsetting half the conservative party is necessarily a bad idea...)

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I'd rather some people could go to really good schools

'Good' at what? Passing exams or prepared for real life, lived within community?

[ 11. March 2017, 18:30: Message edited by: leo ]

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Cod
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quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
Leo, My home-schooled relations do activities together with other children from the home-schooling community. I understand this is quite normal. So they are being raised by the village, just not as defined by you.

It's not the same. Firstly, the amount of time spent with children other than siblings is vastly less than in a school. Secondly, going to museums or parks together with other children is not the same as learning alongside others at the same age and stage, doing group projects, etc. Thirdly, (and I know this problem exists within schools as well, to some extent), it is a self-selecting group, and has a very high chance of being homogeneous with regards to worldviews, and unfortunately a pretty high chance of being homogeneous with regards to income, family structure, ethnicity, etc.

I mean, partly, I am glad that my children go to school because I am a lazy-ass parent who couldn't organise my way out of a paper bag, and who would really, actually, go nuts if I had to listen to that much noise all day, every day - but partly I'm glad they go to school because they meet people who are different, who have different home lives, different values, who do things differently, and they can see, right in front of their eyes, that it is possible for all these different people to get along, to work beside one another, to achieve together.

First, knowing the people concerned as I do I believe that although the amount of time they spend with other children is somewhat less than they would spend were they all at school, I suspect the interactions are somewhat better. Anyway. How much time does a child actually need? The important fact is that they are spending some time on a regular basis, rather than simply spending all their time with their parents.

Second, I believe that gong to museums etc with other children will be every bit as good if it is a small group led by a few interested and motivated parents who have chosen the trip and planned what is to happen. While it is true that in a mixed-age group how the learning takes place is presumably going to have to cater for different ages and levels, but one finds those differences in the average class, so I don't imagine that's such a big deal - and apart from that, I expect every child who has been to a school has - at least once - trailed at the back of the crocodile daydreaming and waiting for the trip to end.

Third, the town is homogenous, so if that's really a problem then the Gvt should start shipping people in and out.

I don't deny the validity of your points - I've seen all those problems in other families who homeschool their children, but I don't see that they're necessary so. However, at its best, homeschooling involves children being taught by highly motivated parents in a way that suits those children better than a schoolteacher - who has 30 children, paperwork and an enormous rulebook to deal with - can manage.

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Cod
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
Leo,

My home-schooled relations do activities together with other children from the home-schooling community. I understand this is quite normal. So they are being raised by the village, just not as defined by you.

That's good - though who decides which children go - do home-schooled kids miss out on meeting people from a different background/class/faith/sexuality?
Not you.

--------------------
"The House of Commons starts its proceedings with a prayer. The chaplain looks at the assembled members with their varied intelligence and then prays for the country."
Lord Denning

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I'd rather some people could go to really good schools

'Good' at what? Passing exams or prepared for real life, lived within community?
Although both of those may be desirable collateral consequences of a good education, I don't think either is anywhere near the core of what education is for or what it should be aiming to achieve.

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Lamb Chopped
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Another one that doesn't trust the state (or in our case, the local authorities) to get it right. My son goes to a very good public school within 10 minutes' distance of some that are among the worst in the country. Location is everything here.

What I want to know is, why do so many people think that it's good, heck, necessary, for children to spend the bulk of their time with their exact age-mates all day? It's come up here on the thread as an argument against home schooling, but also in real life for me, as a Certain Relative decided to rant about my son's social life, which is largely with people either a couple years younger or much older. He declares this "unnatural." Me, I think it's a good thing that my son gets along with all ages. Would it be better for him to treat his young cousins with contempt when they visit?

ETA: it seems to me that the one kind of diversity NOT favored by a large public-run school is age diversity.

[ 12. March 2017, 02:11: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
What I want to know is, why do so many people think that it's good, heck, necessary, for children to spend the bulk of their time with their exact age-mates all day?

I've worked in a school whose house system included mixed-aged tutor groups and classes for some subjects.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

What I want to know is, why do so many people think that it's good, heck, necessary, for children to spend the bulk of their time with their exact age-mates all day?

The difference in cognition and maturity is massive on a yearly basis. Teaching most children in large groups is a practical reality in modern life. A significant time with people interacting at their level is a very good thing.
IME, children also interacting with a large age range is a healthy thing, but that is not the reality of much home-schooling. And is rarely the main issue argued.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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There certainly are deficits in modern education. Trends which disturb me in general are de-emphasis on physical education, fitness and activity, and, the decline of arts - music education and arts education. I see the problems with this when we hire people with graduate degrees who can't reference any literature other than current novels, think music is something listened to, and are in lousy physical condition. Emotional and physical health problems stem from the lack of these.

Re ages: there are always children more developmentally advanced in a single grade. How to handle social relations and get along with others is really important.

--------------------
We must learn to live in harmony with nature. If we don't cease believing we can master and dominate it, life on Earth may be destroyed.
(formerly known more succinctly as "no prophet"), either way not be taken seriously. \_(ツ)_/

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