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Source: (consider it) Thread: Environmentalism and Socialism
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Wait, am I actually supposed to assume that "It would be like Star Trek, and it would be awesome" is a genuine and serious answer to the questions I asked in that post?

Yes.

Which part of a clean, sustainable, high-energy future where no one has to worry about food and shelter and medical bills and education don't you understand? Or is it just that fact that because you no longer have people prepared to (literally) clean your shit up that puts you off?

Automation will change everything. Either we aim for a Star Trek future, or an Elysium future. In 1900, there were 1 million working horses in the UK. By 1914, there were 20,000. I know all the right-wing libertarians believe they're the special kind of snowflakes that deserve the best of everything, but in reality, you're going to be in the 98% of workers who are going to be, like all those horses, culled.

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Forward the New Republic

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Which part of a clean, sustainable, high-energy future where no one has to worry about food and shelter and medical bills and education don't you understand?

The part where it's a realistic possibility rather than science fiction. [/QB][/QUOTE]

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Which part of a clean, sustainable, high-energy future where no one has to worry about food and shelter and medical bills and education don't you understand?

The part where it's a realistic possibility rather than science fiction.
If I thought for a moment you wanted that, rather than playing utterly destructive dominance games with the life and health of the planet, I'd take a lot more time explaining things to you.

If by some slim chance you're genuinely interested, then read this book (don't worry, it's not one of mine). It's very good.

And I fixed your code for you.

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Forward the New Republic

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
If I thought for a moment you wanted that, rather than playing utterly destructive dominance games with the life and health of the planet, I'd take a lot more time explaining things to you.

What I want doesn't matter, the point is that if we're going to have a discussion about your vision for how global society might be changed and rearranged into a more environmentally friendly and socialist structure then you need to put more on the table than science fiction fantasies. Sure, I may not agree with your ideas, but it would be nice if you could give me some ideas that are worth disagreeing with.

This whole thread so far has been "what we're doing now is bad". There's precious few practical ideas for how the sort of society you want to usher in would look, feel and act on a day-to-day basis - and when I asked about such things you responded with "Star Trek is cool - let's live like that".

As for links to other people's books, I'd much rather interact with what you have to say on the matter.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Schroedinger's cat

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Interestingly (I am still reading the book), Klein does accept that there is right wing and left wing materialistic capitalists.

She defined "Extractivists" who are those whose focus on extracting - from the world, from people - and not caring about this. Their political position is irrelevant.

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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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simontoad
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I'm not sure about this, but I think it's the American brand of capitalism that is so focused on individual freedom at the expense of equity. No, perhaps its better to say that the American electorate seems to let its politicians get away with allowing appalling levels of disparity in wellbeing exist in the same region, or putting in place the most egregious social policies in a wealthy society.

I remember that after about 10 years in power our Prime Minister Howard lost his Government and his seat in Parliament when he tried to substantially deregulate our system of industrial relations.

Britain, I'm not sure about. Obviously, its most hateful PM in living memory was Thatcher, and her brand of capitalism was just as horrid as that in place in the United States. There were protests and much disruption during the period, but she managed to stay in power until her own party knifed her, I think.

Freedom and equity are not mutually exclusive. Universal health care does not mean that you have to give up your giant car. Putting systems in place to ensure that banks can't do what makes their business the most money but imperils the international economy and the wellbeing of millions is not about stifling innovation.

Freedom and equity are not mutually exclusive. Our parents knew it, our Grandparents knew it, and it is high time we reclaimed it.

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Human

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Sure, I may not agree with your ideas, but it would be nice if you could

Green technologies, reduced consumption and actually giving a shit about the planet and each other. All things you've evinced no concern about.
It also involves people being politically engaged, so I've little hope.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Britain, I'm not sure about. Obviously, its most hateful PM in living memory was Thatcher, and her brand of capitalism was just as horrid as that in place in the United States. There were protests and much disruption during the period, but she managed to stay in power until her own party knifed her, I think.

Precious little to like about either Thatcher or the policies of her governments. However, many of the protests and much of the disruption to which you refer was initiated by Militant Tendency in its efforts to overthrow an elected government. Ultimately Labour recognised the danger iMilitant Tendency posed, expelled the leaders and proscribed the movement.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Schroedinger's cat

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Our current government is being excessively introvert and nationalist - it is all about "Making Britain Great Again". So as long as we are OK, the fact that others are dying is irrelevant. It is the same small-mindedness that means we won't consider tackling global problems until we cannot explain them away.

There is such a lot of the rhetoric or climate change deniers used, although with a different focus. "We don't want refugees here" from countries we have helped bomb the crap out of is not that different from "We have reduced our emissions, it is up to them to do the same" from countries we have exported our dirty industry to.

It is a global problem, and yet, more and more, I see major leaders being less global, more introverted, especially those on the political right.

Oh and I think Mrs Thatcher may not be the most hated PM in living memory. Current and recent ones are plying for that title. Of course, she is responsible for the current batch.

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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Precious little to like about either Thatcher or the policies of her governments. However, many of the protests and much of the disruption to which you refer was initiated by Militant Tendency in its efforts to overthrow an elected government.

Whilst the Militant was associated with the Poll Tax riots, it is a mistake to suggest that they were solely responsible for the Poll Tax protests, which let's not forget were ultimately successful.

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arse

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The modern socialism which I want isn't based on consumption, but on freedom from consumption. An economic system that isn't reliant on buying crap (which pretty much sums up most of the western world).

Could you clarify what you mean by 'crap'? I'm not entirely sure what you think we're all buying that we shouldn't be buying and how we'd be all better off if we didn't have it.
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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Could you clarify what you mean by 'crap'? I'm not entirely sure what you think we're all buying that we shouldn't be buying and how we'd be all better off if we didn't have it.

You know, crap. All the stuff that ends up in landfill sites or is sorted out and sent for processing here or abroad.

Mountains of it is unrecoverable, but even the stuff that is recyclable is clearly wasteful (in the sense of needing energy, water etc to recover). Stuff that is sent abroad is associated with pollution, slavery, illness, poverty in many parts.

And, ultimately, the planet could in no ways cope if everyone lived like we do.

I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to compute?

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arse

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Gee D
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mr cheesy, There were multiple elements to the Poll Tax riots, but that's only part of what I was referring to. The efforts to unseat an electd government started under Wilson and were pushed even harder under Callaghan. Indeed, Callaghan's must rank as one of the weakest British governments of all time, virtually unable to formulate policy and put it into effect. These efforts reached their peak in the Thatcher years with a combination of industrial action, the miners' strike* and so forth.

*Not to attempt to justify the harshness of the police response.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
mr cheesy, There were multiple elements to the Poll Tax riots, but that's only part of what I was referring to. The efforts to unseat an electd government started under Wilson and were pushed even harder under Callaghan. Indeed, Callaghan's must rank as one of the weakest British governments of all time, virtually unable to formulate policy and put it into effect. These efforts reached their peak in the Thatcher years with a combination of industrial action, the miners' strike* and so forth.

*Not to attempt to justify the harshness of the police response.

Miners strikes were not related to Militant Tendency. You are tying things together when they were only tangentially related.

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arse

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Gee D
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mr cheesy, That's not how it appeared at the time.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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mr cheesy
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So you don't think the miners strikes were associated with, oh I don't know, trying to preserve jobs and whole communities which were on the verge of being economically wiped out by the Tory policies? You think it was simply about a small number of Militant members in Labour?

You might want to try coming here to the Welsh valleys and test out that opinion.

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arse

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Gee D
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To expand briefly and quickly - the original strikes were local, directed towards jobs and rights preservation. All good and proper union an workers activities. The Militant involvement started with the flying pickets and so forth, and appeared a determined effort to bring down the elected government. That effort would have been better saved until the next election, gathering anti-Thatcher votes and delivering those voters to the booths.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
mr cheesy, That's not how it appeared at the time.

That appearance was amply helped along by the right wing tabloid press, also see Hillsborough.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
mr cheesy, That's not how it appeared at the time.

That appearance was amply helped along by the right wing tabloid press, also see Hillsborough.
I'm not sure that either the New Statesman or the Guardian would be called right-wing or tabloid.

Hillsborough??? What's that please?

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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mr cheesy
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Herein is a case-study in doing historical analysis from a distance.

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arse

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Gee D
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But well informed on this topic.

[ 15. March 2017, 09:52: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
But well informed on this topic.

Erm. no.

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arse

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Gee D
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Perhaps, but you'd not be surprised if I disagreed. The eighties here were a period of renewal under a right-wing Labor government; the UK underwent a period of moving backwards under a right-wing Tory government, kept in power by the shenanigans ot Militant Tendency and the like. It was a tragedy.

[ 15. March 2017, 10:01: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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mr cheesy
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OK then, thanks for sorting us out on that point.

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arse

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Green technologies,

With the best will in the world (and assuming you don't count nuclear as a green technology), they are extremely unlikely to be able to match current demand for power, let alone projected future demands. Which brings us to...

quote:
reduced consumption
...in which we have to decide which parts of our current lifestyle will no longer be acceptable. The single largest end use of energy in the UK is transport, followed by space heating - all other uses put together aren't as big as either [source]. So for us to meaningfully reduce our energy consumption we'd have to either travel less or heat our rooms less. Or both.

I'll grant you that a significant minority of the transport energy usage is for freight, which could be cut down by us not buying as many things. Again, we'd have to decide which things to no longer make available, with the knock-on effect of causing major job losses in the sectors that manufacture and sell those things.

quote:
and actually giving a shit about the planet and each other. All things you've evinced no concern about.
Unfortunately, giving a shit about each other may not be fully compatible with giving a shit about the planet. If it were just about the planet then we could eliminate all non-green energy sources tomorrow, but the resulting economic crash would make every previous one look like a picnic.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:


I'll grant you that a significant minority of the transport energy usage is for freight, which could be cut down by us not buying as many things.

The problem is that buying things from China might not have as an obvious local impact, it does affect globally. Which then affects local.
quote:
If it were just about the planet then we could eliminate all non-green energy sources tomorrow, but the resulting economic crash would make every previous one look like a picnic.

If we do not begin, it will never happen. Immediate cessation of purchasing the unnecessary is incredibly unlikely and not feasible. But we need to begin now if we at all care for the next generation. Indeed, if we at all care for the youngest of the current.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The problem is that buying things from China might not have as an obvious local impact, it does affect globally. Which then affects local.

Granted.

quote:
quote:
If it were just about the planet then we could eliminate all non-green energy sources tomorrow, but the resulting economic crash would make every previous one look like a picnic.

If we do not begin, it will never happen. Immediate cessation of purchasing the unnecessary is incredibly unlikely and not feasible. But we need to begin now if we at all care for the next generation. Indeed, if we at all care for the youngest of the current.
Maybe you'd like to begin by suggesting some things that can go on the "unnecessary" pile.

This is part of what I've been getting at in the last few days. Mr cheesy and yourself have both said we should stop buying "crap", but neither of you has yet given a single example of the sort of "crap" you have in mind. Are you thinking this sort of thing, or maybe this sort of thing, or even this sort of thing (to pick three of the UK's top 10 imports from China at random).

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Hail Gallaxhar

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Maybe you'd like to begin by suggesting some things that can go on the "unnecessary" pile.

This is part of what I've been getting at in the last few days. Mr cheesy and yourself have both said we should stop buying "crap", but neither of you has yet given a single example of the sort of "crap" you have in mind. Are you thinking this sort of thing, or maybe this sort of thing, or even this sort of thing (to pick three of the UK's top 10 imports from China at random).

To start. Food waste, power waste, excessive use of transport, eating out of home, etc. Not necessarily scaling back to the absolute minimum, but a lot.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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simontoad
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The modern socialism which I want isn't based on consumption, but on freedom from consumption. An economic system that isn't reliant on buying crap (which pretty much sums up most of the western world).

Could you clarify what you mean by 'crap'? I'm not entirely sure what you think we're all buying that we shouldn't be buying and how we'd be all better off if we didn't have it.
Frivolously, I have bought at least three desktop computers in the last ten years, but I use my wife's hand-me-down smartphone. My wife has her new smartphone and a work smartphone, a kindle, a laptop, an i-pad and a work thing (thin with a thin detachable keyboard, might be an i-pad too). We have at least four televisions which we bought in stages as the technology changed. I think we are up to internet connected and HD now. I have a new modem (unsolicited) as my area is about to connect to a new broadband network. Connecting that will render my current landline telephone inoperable, voila I have a new complimentary telephone. I'm a bit worried that the new broadband will mean that I have to get rid of this three-year-old desktop as it has no capacity for wifi, although there is probably a cheap fix.

Shall I tell you about our car and travel related consumption?

[ 15. March 2017, 23:29: Message edited by: simontoad ]

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Human

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lilBuddha
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You're proud of that? Happy or indifferent to the lives shortened and ended so you can recite that list?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
OK then, thanks for sorting us out on that point.

You're very welcome. I trust that you enjoyed the primary and early secondary education that Ms Thatcher's governments provided to you.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
You're very welcome. I trust that you enjoyed the primary and early secondary education that Ms Thatcher's governments provided to you.

You are so wrong it isn't even worth wasting time responding.

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arse

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
To start. Food waste, power waste, excessive use of transport, eating out of home, etc. Not necessarily scaling back to the absolute minimum, but a lot.

That's a good start, though none of those things are ones I'd normally put in the "consumerist crap" category.

For food waste, do you mean eating too much food or throwing away too much food? I think everyone can agree that the latter is bad, but the former might be more problematic! I'm also not sure why eating out is an inherently bad thing, as surely the same amount of food would be eaten whether people were eating it at home or at a restaurant?

Power waste should be a no-brainer, because using less power means smaller bills as well as lower emissions. It amazes me that so many houses, offices, etc. are left with all the lights on at all hours of the day and night.

I'm not sure what constitutes "excessive" use of transport in your book. Is this about the amount of freight that gets moved around the world, or the amount of passenger transport that happens? If it's the former then we're back to the question of which items shouldn't be transported (as per my last post), but if it's the latter then I'd be interested in your ideas about which journeys shouldn't be made.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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There's a bit of a disconnect, especially with the transportation issue, between what we need as a society to be doing and what it's reasonable to expect people to do as things now stand. Case in point - long commutes. Caused by two things - the disappearance of the "single breadwinner" household model (and we'd not want to turn the clock back to married women not working), the increased insecurity of employment and the greater tendency to have a series of jobs, which may be in different places, and also the availability of relatively cheap motoring (yes, I know, but actually from what I understand it's never been cheaper relative to income). At the same time, housing costs have increased signficantly, making it even harder to live near where the jobs are, as that's where the property prices are often highest*

So we have a lot of people, generally driving because societally That Is What People Do, doing long commutes with all that entails. It's not generally reasonable on an individual level to tell them to stop, either, because since it's what everyone else does, and it's sort of expected, the alternatives aren't there or aren't the sort of thing people can see themselves doing (15 miles each way by cycle, for example - most people wouldn't dream of doing it, but I do, because I tend not to give a shit what everyone else does and I'm determined not to have a second car if I can possibly avoid it because I hate it. Multiple car ownership, that is**.)


I'm probably wibbling. My point is that on this particular topic, as a society we need to

1. Live closer to work
2. See private cars as a transport problem, not a transport solution.

Getting individuals to do this, however, unless they're committed awkward bastards like me*** is however probably unreasonable.

*Yes, I know about rural house prices, but I'm thinking more of the comparison between say Sheffield and Chesterfield. Chesterfield house prices are lower, at least in comparable areas, because the jobs are in Sheffield. That's how we ended up in Chesterfield.

**Because I'm fed up to the back teeth with the destruction of the environment in my home village caused by people buying second or third cars then parking them on the pavements and verges because there's not room on their driveways.

***Had the very devil of a job getting my boss to accept the fact that I didn't consider having a second car so it could sit in the office car park on the offchance it was needed (once or twice a years, possibly) to be a reasonable requirement. I won, in the end, because I'm bloody-minded.

[ 16. March 2017, 11:36: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
eating out of home,

Is eating out environmentally bad? It's expensive, of course, because you have to pay for labour rather than getting it for free, but isn't it more efficient to have many meals cooked in one kitchen rather than many meals in many kitchens?
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
eating out of home,

Is eating out environmentally bad? It's expensive, of course, because you have to pay for labour rather than getting it for free, but isn't it more efficient to have many meals cooked in one kitchen rather than many meals in many kitchens?
The fuel consumed getting diners to the restaurant. The file consumed bringing food to the many restaurants instead of the more centralised market, the constantly on cooking sources, the constantly opened cold units, warming trays, electricity, etc. I would think more food is wasted as well, but that one is more difficult to track.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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MtM,

By food waste I mean throwing away food.
By excessive use of transport, I mean individual use of cars when public transport could be used. But I also mean inefficient use as well. I will use myself as an example. I find myself making multiple trips to the same area when I could plan more efficiently and make fewer. I will go a distance to try a new restaurant when I could wait until I am in the area or just not go.
We do all manner of things less efficiently than we could.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Sioni Sais
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If there is an example of waste when it comes to using private cars instead of public transport, it must be the non-use of these vehicles. Half-an-hour each way, and your car is doing sweet FA for 23 out of 24 hours each working day. It's either sat in the road, in your driveway or in a car park. OK, it gets more use at other times but even 15000 milesis 1250 per month and at an average on twenty days on the road that is about 60 miles per day, considerably less than two hours per 24 hour day. Typically a bus is used for about eight hours, a train for ten hours plus and they both carry more passengers per unit of resources used.

It's wasteful and inefficient as far as cars are concerned and forces governments hands to fund road building.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The fuel consumed getting diners to the restaurant.

Yes, I'll give you that one.

quote:

The file consumed bringing food to the many restaurants instead of the more centralised market,

But not that. The food has to go to people's homes to get eaten.

quote:

the constantly on cooking sources, the constantly opened cold units, warming trays, electricity, etc.

Or that. Ovens that are constantly on and in use are way better than many ovens that are warmed up, cook one thing, and then left to cool.

A restaurant is like a bus. When it's full, it's much more efficient than private cars. If there's only one passenger, it isn't.

quote:

I would think more food is wasted as well, but that one is more difficult to track.

More food wasted because people order too much and don't finish it? Quite possibly, but that's not really a function of eating out per se.

More food wasted in preparation? I doubt it. Two-thirds of all food wasted in homes is never even cooked: it goes to the fridge or the fruit bowl, hangs around for a while, and then is discarded. But as you say, it's quite hard to track properly.

[ 16. March 2017, 13:01: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If there is an example of waste when it comes to using private cars instead of public transport, it must be the non-use of these vehicles.

[..]

It's wasteful and inefficient as far as cars are concerned and forces governments hands to fund road building.

Non-use of cars is inefficient if it means a lot of energy used to create a car which then sits around doing nothing - and it's inefficient to the extent that the usable lifetime of a car is determined by age rather than mileage.

The need for roads depends on the use of cars, not the existence of cars - what counts is peak usage (damage to roads is essentially all caused by large heavy vehicles rather than cars, so total car usage isn't really a feature in road upkeep costs). So if you're driving to work at the same time as everyone else, you're costing more road. If you don't usually drive to/from work at peak times (and perhaps that's your excuse for not taking the bus) then you also don't cause larger roads.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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If we really wanted to change transportation behaviour, we'd implement:
1. road user fees - those who drive pay, per distance travelled in a private vehicle.

2. congestion fees - additional fees for driving within some time periods, like rush hours

3. To pay for building roads we'd need to collect additional tolls for being on the road at all.

I think such fees are entirely fair and much fairer than not making users pay them. They require the people who benefit most from their use to pay more for them. Currently, all taxpayers pay costs of road development and maintenance, regardless of how much they use them, and even if they don't use them.

User fees ensure consumers bear the full costs of their actions. Why should I pay for for your restaurant meal? - roads are the same.

Without user fees, the bad effects of transport like pollution and road maintenance are borne by the public at large. Fees can also effectively reduce these negative effects by encouraging consumers to change their habits of transport.

For meals, obviously the cost of transport must be passed on to the person eating in the restaurant.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
The food has to go to people's homes to get eaten.

Restaurant = 2.4 meals per trip, market = 33 meals per trip.

quote:

Ovens that are constantly on and in use are way better than many ovens that are warmed up, cook one thing, and then left to cool.

This depend upon fuel source and exactly how much time unused. But I'll grant less clear than I stated.
quote:

A restaurant is like a bus. When it's full, it's much more efficient than private cars. If there's only one passenger, it isn't.

Some have a lot of downtime when power/fuel is being consumed.

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

The need for roads depends on the use of cars, not the existence of cars - what counts is peak usage (damage to roads is essentially all caused by large heavy vehicles rather than cars, so total car usage isn't really a feature in road upkeep costs). So if you're driving to work at the same time as everyone else, you're costing more road. If you don't usually drive to/from work at peak times (and perhaps that's your excuse for not taking the bus) then you also don't cause larger roads.

One 18 wheeler does the damage of nearly 10K cars. It isn't that cars cause no wear, but that it is insignificant in comparison. Fewer cars does, as you say, mean less cost for expansion.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

User fees ensure consumers bear the full costs of their actions. Why should I pay for for your restaurant meal? - roads are the same.

Except that they are not. Use fees disadvantage the poor.
There are other complications that I do not have the time to address.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
One 18 wheeler does the damage of nearly 10K cars. It isn't that cars cause no wear, but that it is insignificant in comparison.

Yes, that was the purpose of the word "essential" in my comment. Road damage scales roughly as the fourth power of the axle weight.

(A large bus is nearly as bad as an 18-wheeler for road wear.)

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

User fees ensure consumers bear the full costs of their actions. Why should I pay for for your restaurant meal? - roads are the same.

Except that they are not. Use fees disadvantage the poor.
There are other complications that I do not have the time to address.

That is not only not right, it is not even wrong. The ideas misses so many details in coming up with a sloppy rejection.

User fees do not have to disadvantage poor. Only if you do it wrong. You simply have to decide where to put the money collected from user fees. Such as subsidizing incomes or giving free transit access to certain groups.

We already do it in many places in Canada. Where I live transit passes cost $83 per month for an adult. There is a tax credit which is income dependent which offsets this for working poor. The local example is that students at post-secondary get an 8 month pass for $123 for the whole 8 months. All it takes is some creativity and desire to change behaviour. I'd make the student price be the working poor price. The unemployed poor price less or free. The car fees subsidize. Easy peasy.

So no, you are not correct that user fees must harm the poor. In fact user fees can advantage the poor.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
We already do it in many places in Canada. Where I live transit passes cost $83 per month for an adult.

Transit passes. So, how does the wise and noble Canada handle areas in which there is no, or insufficient, public transport?
There are other components of road use and the transit fee does not pay all the bills of maintenance of the system.
Use taxes are those assessed for direct use. Such as fuel taxes that are mandated for transportation. These can disadvantage the poor who need to travel outside of areas of public transport. They are also difficult to increase as they are transparent and people are reticent to pay more.
Paying for transport out of the general fund is problematic as well, there is significant competition for those resources. It is even more complicated than that, but that discussion is beyond the scope of this thread.

[ 16. March 2017, 15:27: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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OK, the snark was unnecessary. Apologies for that.

I do know something about transportation costs and funding. Though I admit to not being as knowledgeable about Canada's system.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
There's a bit of a disconnect, especially with the transportation issue, between what we need as a society to be doing and what it's reasonable to expect people to do as things now stand.

I think you're absolutely right, Karl. And I think the fact that it would be very difficult to take meaningful action on the transport issue without completely changing our entire society and economy is a significant enough reason to be reluctant to take that action.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

User fees ensure consumers bear the full costs of their actions. Why should I pay for for your restaurant meal? - roads are the same.

Except that they are not. Use fees disadvantage the poor.
The pollution generated by any given car doesn't get better or worse depending on the financial status of the driver. If people need to stop using cars, that will apply to the poor just as much as the rich.

[ 16. March 2017, 15:53: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

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Hail Gallaxhar

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

User fees ensure consumers bear the full costs of their actions. Why should I pay for for your restaurant meal? - roads are the same.

Except that they are not. Use fees disadvantage the poor.
The pollution generated by any given car doesn't get better or worse depending on the financial status of the driver. If people need to stop using cars, that will apply to the poor just as much as the rich.
I didn't say people need to stop using cars, just not use them as much.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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