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Source: (consider it) Thread: Who's now the leader of the free world?
Gramps49
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Now that Trump has been proven a pathological liar, who is the leader of the free world?
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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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It's meaningless ever since the Soviet Union went down. 1989ish. If your question is which country has the better functioning democracy, that's a different question, and there are many.

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Og, King of Bashan

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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Now that Trump has been proven a pathological liar, who is the leader of the free world?

Just now?

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Gee D
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For the moral leadership she showed at the time of the peak of the refugee crisis in Europe, I'd suggest Angela Merkel.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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I second the motion. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall (German speaking, of course) in her hotel room after her meeting with the asshole-in-chief.

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Barnabas62
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It's one of these office and office holder questions. If that power is vested in any office, it remains with the office of POTUS, regardless of who is the office holder. At present, I'm hoping that there is an internal struggle taking place in the White House, with the more rational appointees vying with the sycophants to exercise some moderating influence on the current office holder.

A bit like the Court of Henry the Eighth. Trump comes across as a classic tyrant-bully type; there are great skills involved in controlling such types. As well as considerable risks for those who try. Not beheading of course these days, but I don't think it's a role for the faint-hearted.

I've got a feeling that Mattis and Tillerson will make common cause and may succeed in being accepted as the voices to listen to globally. Other national leaders can vest power in them by taking seriously what they say, leaving Trump to run the tweet entertainment side show. And Congress will run domestic policy via the budget.

The art will be to persuade Trump that he has won when he hasn't. Given his attention span and impatience with detail, this may be possible.

Short answer to the OP question. A committee of the most influential US White House appointees, steering the erratic Trump.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Latchkey Kid
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Is anyone?

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Alan Cresswell

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In a free world, everyone and no-one is the leader. If there is a specified individual leader, or a very small cohort of joint leaders, then we're not really free. Within a democracy there may have been a large number of people who have chosen to cede their freedom, for a short while, to an individual or party. That doesn't make us free.

Of course the "free world" of the title is nothing of the sort. It was originally simply "free from Communist rule". We were never free from Capitalism and the multinational companies, their unelected CEOs and the politicians they support.

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Boogie

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My vote is with Angela.

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rolyn
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Show me a free world and I might be able to tell you who's leading it.

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Adeodatus
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There is no such job title as "leader of the free world", and never has been.

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Barnabas62
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On reflection I think the phrase is really shorthand for the leader of the most militarily and economic powerful democracy in the world.

The implication is that the leader of that country has a wider responsibility for guarding and fostering democracies than any other leader because of that power. But that leader may not want that responsibility or may not be up to it. Or may not be accepted by the other democracies as having that role

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Stetson
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Barnabas wrote:

quote:
I've got a feeling that Mattis and Tillerson will make common cause and may succeed in being accepted as the voices to listen to globally. Other national leaders can vest power in them by taking seriously what they say, leaving Trump to run the tweet entertainment side show. And Congress will run domestic policy via the budget.

My hopes for Tillerson were somewhat dampened when I found out that he had wanted Iran-Contra sleazebag Elliot Abrams as his deputy. And my opinion of Trump went up slightly when I found out that he had vetoed that request.

The media spin, of course, was that Trump was acting capriciously in nixing Abrams, doing so simply because Abrams had written something unflattering about him a few days earlier. But apparently what Abrams wrote was that Trump is similar to George McGovern, and he meant that as an insult. I would take the opposite view of that comparison.

All that said, overall I agree that Tillerson manning foreign-policy is a more reassuring prospect that Trump winging it, with his limited knowledge and experience.

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Latchkey Kid
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But I think the vote for Angela Merkel was for being the moral leader.

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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner

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Jolly Jape
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I would say Angela, certainly for her response to the refugee crisis, but I can't quite forget her appalling and hypocritical treatment of the Greeks over their national debt, which had, in large part, been encouraged by German economic interests. Not Mrs Merkel's finest moment.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Martin60
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@Alan Cresswell

Uh ohhh.
Capitalism is anti-democratic.
62 year old penny drops.

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Love wins

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:

A bit like the Court of Henry the Eighth. Trump comes across as a classic tyrant-bully type; there are great skills involved in controlling such types. As well as considerable risks for those who try. Not beheading of course these days, but I don't think it's a role for the faint-hearted.

No, not beheading-- too crude. Poison appears to be the preference of the current power behind the throne

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mr cheesy
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Justin Trudeau.

Canada has a lot of problems (without wanting to list them all here) but Trudeau seems to be about the only major leader keeping his head when everyone else is losing theirs.

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simontoad
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The American President has the leadership of the West. That's been the case since the Suez Crisis. Trump is our leader, and I can't forgive the Trump voters I don't know personally for that.

This past election has finally made me think that I might have very little in common with about half of all Americans. It gives me a pain in the gut to say it. I think I am disgusted with about half of all Americans. There is no fucking excuse for what they did in this election.

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Enoch
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No doubt about it. During President Obama's term, there were only two political leaders on the world stage one could respect for their personal qualities, as people and as leaders. The end of his term leaves Mrs Merkel on her own.

Perhaps Justin Trudeau may rise to the occasion, but he's too recent as yet. I can't see anyone else at the moment who shows much sign of any capacity to rise to such estimation. Can you?

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leftfieldlover
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An American lady I know, who is unhappy with the Golden-faced One, has suggested that a possible get-out clause could be to say he is in the early stages of dementia. He would then have to stand down because of ill-health. Would there have to be a new election or would his deputy take over? As regards the 'Leader of the Free World'. Probably Dr Merkel, or if not her, Justin Trudeau.

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leftfieldlover
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quote:
Originally posted by leftfieldlover:
An American lady I know, who is unhappy with the orange-faced one, has suggested that a possible get-out clause could be to say he is in the early stages of dementia. He would then have to stand down because of ill-health. Would there have to be a new election or would his deputy take over? As regards the 'Leader of the Free World'. Probably Dr Merkel, or if not her, Justin Trudeau. It might have been Tony Blair once...



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I can gauge your mood from your approach to food.

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by leftfieldlover:
Would there have to be a new election or would his deputy take over?

If the President is unable to serve, the Vice President becomes President, and appoints a new VP. So in that scenario Mike Pence would be the 46th POTUS.
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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
The American President has the leadership of the West. That's been the case since the Suez Crisis. Trump is our leader, and I can't forgive the Trump voters I don't know personally for that.

This past election has finally made me think that I might have very little in common with about half of all Americans. It gives me a pain in the gut to say it. I think I am disgusted with about half of all Americans. There is no fucking excuse for what they did in this election.

Since '43 I'd say.

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Love wins

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by leftfieldlover:
An American lady I know, who is unhappy with the Golden-faced One, has suggested that a possible get-out clause could be to say he is in the early stages of dementia. He would then have to stand down because of ill-health. Would there have to be a new election or would his deputy take over?

If the President is unable to serve, the Vice President becomes President, and appoints a new VP. So in that scenario Mike Pence would be the 46th POTUS.
The main sticking point here is that the 25th Amendment (the means by which a demented president or one otherwise "unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office" is removed from office) can only be implemented by "the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide". In other words, the cabinet Trump just appointed would have to be willing to declare him unfit for office. I can see that as the punchline of several jokes ("of course he's nuts, he appointed us!") but it seems unrealistic in practical terms.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Justin Trudeau.

Canada has a lot of problems (without wanting to list them all here) but Trudeau seems to be about the only major leader keeping his head when everyone else is losing theirs.

No. Smiley McHandsome is the leader of the of the stylish leader world. Great hair. As a Canadian...
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Crœsos
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As a interesting (and largely pedantic) side-note, if the 25th Amendment were to be successfully invoked against Donald Trump, Mike Pence would not become the President but rather the "Acting President". The 25th Amendment makes no distinction between temporary and permanent disabilities.

In the case of Trump's resignation Pence would become President, though.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
In other words, the cabinet Trump just appointed would have to be willing to declare him unfit for office. I can see that as the punchline of several jokes ("of course he's nuts, he appointed us!") but it seems unrealistic in practical terms.

Well, sure. It's not meant to be a partisan political tool. It's also worth noting that President Reagan was showing signs of early dementia in his second term, and nobody sought to remove him from office. A president would probably have to be significantly impaired and be unwilling to be "managed" for his own side to declare him unfit.
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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
It's also worth noting that President Reagan was showing signs of early dementia in his second term, and nobody sought to remove him from office.

Well, no formal steps were taken but it was considered.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Bishops Finger
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No-one's perfect, of course, and even people of the moral stature and integrity of Barack Obama and Angela Merkel have had their Bad Days....

...but, if a short list of potential LOTFW could include Michelle Obama and Nicola Sturgeon, I'd be content. Feisty ladies, both, and a refreshing change from some of the self-seeking, banal, patronising, mealy-mouthed apologies for World Leaders I could think of.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Justin Trudeau.

Canada has a lot of problems (without wanting to list them all here) but Trudeau seems to be about the only major leader keeping his head when everyone else is losing theirs.

No. Smiley McHandsome is the leader of the of the stylish leader world. Great hair. As a Canadian...
And what's with this thing between him and Ivanka?

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Garden Hermit
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Whats the 'Free World' ? Please define. Whats 'Leadership' ? I would suggest setting a 'Good Example'. My best example of Leadership is Aung San Suu Kyi who has actually been banned from being President of Myanmar (Burma). Another Candidate is Pope Francis. Donald Trump just enjoys annoying people. I don't take him too seriously and don't suggest anyone else does. If and when he threatens Military Action then maybe's the time to get worried.
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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Justin Trudeau.

Canada has a lot of problems (without wanting to list them all here) but Trudeau seems to be about the only major leader keeping his head when everyone else is losing theirs.

No. Smiley McHandsome is the leader of the of the stylish leader world. Great hair. As a Canadian...
And what's with this thing between him and Ivanka?
Contrary to the image of him as some sort of left-wing firebrand, Trudeau is actually pretty neo-liberal when it comes to trade(this was actually the historical position of the Liberal Party before Trudeau Sr. pushed it in a slightly protectionist direction in the mid-70s). And since the US is Canada's No. 1 trading partner, this means he would regard any move toward protectionism as a threat to Canada's interests.

So, he likely wants to suck up to Trump to make sure he's always on the man's good side. And, what better way to do that than by forging an alliance with the man's beloved(and, from what I am taken to understand, somewhat influential) daughter?

One thing that's been amusing is seeing certain American liberals(yes, I'm looking at you, Slate.com), lamenting that he's somehow "validating" Trump's misogyny, racism, and all- around awfulness by being nice to him and hanging around with Ivanka.

News flash. The Prime Minister Of Canada is NOT the House Minority Leader. His job is to look after the interests of Canada, not anyone else's.

(Whether I share his views about what constitute the interests of Canada is another matter.)

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Gramps49
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I purposely left "leader" and "free world" undefined. You need to come up with your own definitions.
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simontoad
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quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
Whats the 'Free World' ? Please define. Whats 'Leadership' ? I would suggest setting a 'Good Example'. My best example of Leadership is Aung San Suu Kyi who has actually been banned from being President of Myanmar (Burma). Another Candidate is Pope Francis. Donald Trump just enjoys annoying people. I don't take him too seriously and don't suggest anyone else does. If and when he threatens Military Action then maybe's the time to get worried.

He threatened war with North Korea the other day, via his silver-haired secretary of state. It was a conditional threat, but a threat nonetheless.

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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Garden Hermit
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
Whats the 'Free World' ? Please define. Whats 'Leadership' ? I would suggest setting a 'Good Example'. My best example of Leadership is Aung San Suu Kyi who has actually been banned from being President of Myanmar (Burma). Another Candidate is Pope Francis. Donald Trump just enjoys annoying people. I don't take him too seriously and don't suggest anyone else does. If and when he threatens Military Action then maybe's the time to get worried.

He threatened war with North Korea the other day, via his silver-haired secretary of state. It was a conditional threat, but a threat nonetheless.
Maybe that's another thread. What do you do with North Korea who are aiming and launching Missiles at Japan and South Korea, presumably without Warheads. If N.K. did 'bomb' either State would the USA intervene ? I presume Trump is sabre-rattling at the moment to force China to do something.
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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
He threatened war with North Korea the other day, via his silver-haired secretary of state. It was a conditional threat, but a threat nonetheless.

What's wrong with being silver-haired? It's genetic, it's not an attempt to hide anthing. Much better than reaching for the bottle of X in the shower every day if you ask me.

Lots of bases to attack Trump and his cabinet, but being silver-haired is not one of them. YMMV.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
He threatened war with North Korea the other day, via his silver-haired secretary of state. It was a conditional threat, but a threat nonetheless.

What's wrong with being silver-haired? It's genetic, it's not an attempt to hide anthing. Much better than reaching for the bottle of X in the shower every day if you ask me.

Lots of bases to attack Trump and his cabinet, but being silver-haired is not one of them. YMMV.

Nothing wrong with being silver-haired per se, but there were several media reports that Tillerson was selected to be Secretary of State because Trump (who is very concerned with appearances and presentation) thinks Tillerson looks the part. That seems an insufficient qualification.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Golden Key
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T's nominee for ambassador to Austria was reportedly chosen because he's seen "The Sound Of Music" 75 times.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Could be worse. Could have been chosen because of love of kangaroos.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31683 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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As it so happens, Fortune Magazine has solved this question. The world's greatest leader is Theo Epstein, the Chicago Cubs’ president of baseball operations.

Of course, they didn't specify the free world, but, hey, by definition he must be in the running. [Big Grin]

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

Posts: 2516 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
For the moral leadership she showed at the time of the peak of the refugee crisis in Europe, I'd suggest Angela Merkel.

Except that that "moral leadership" consisted of putting much of the rest of the EU offside and not leading them anywhere as Germany decided to do its own thing.

Clearly many are supportive of what Germany did, but I'm not convinced that makes it into leadership.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I purposely left "leader" and "free world" undefined. You need to come up with your own definitions.

The free world is the world where the rich are free to get richer at the expense of the poor; where the overfed are free to get fuller at the expense of the hungry; where if you have little money you're free to pay for anything and everything, but can be and do only what you're told to be and do. Two cheers for freedom!

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The free world is the world where the rich are free to get richer at the expense of the poor; where the overfed are free to get fuller at the expense of the hungry; where if you have little money you're free to pay for anything and everything, but can be and do only what you're told to be and do. Two cheers for freedom!

If one has lived one's life in a comfortable western country, it is easy to say that, or even to imagine that one really thinks that. If one has lived in a country that was a dictatorship, with a very active secret police, as I have, then for all their limitations, the phrase 'free world' represents values that should not be sneered at.

I know this sounds pompous, but it needs saying. That's one of the many reasons why Trump is such an abomination, and why those who voted for him have betrayed more than just themselves.

[ 24. March 2017, 09:00: Message edited by: Enoch ]

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7061 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The free world is the world where the rich are free to get richer at the expense of the poor; where the overfed are free to get fuller at the expense of the hungry; where if you have little money you're free to pay for anything and everything, but can be and do only what you're told to be and do. Two cheers for freedom!

Mmm. I don't know whether you intended this to be pointing at Trumpism, but to much of the world this describes the perception of "the West" anyway. Not to decry those who live in poverty in our countries whatsoever, but for many of us an accident of birth means that we get stuff many many people can only dream of.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Garden Hermit
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# 109

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
For the moral leadership she showed at the time of the peak of the refugee crisis in Europe, I'd suggest Angela Merkel.

Except that that "moral leadership" consisted of putting much of the rest of the EU offside and not leading them anywhere as Germany decided to do its own thing.

Clearly many are supportive of what Germany did, but I'm not convinced that makes it into leadership.

Merkel took the 1 Million refugees because Germany was incredibly short of Labour, and that was restricting production. If there was unemployment I doubt if she would have been so keen.
Posts: 1410 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
For the moral leadership she showed at the time of the peak of the refugee crisis in Europe, I'd suggest Angela Merkel.

Except that that "moral leadership" consisted of putting much of the rest of the EU offside and not leading them anywhere as Germany decided to do its own thing.

Clearly many are supportive of what Germany did, but I'm not convinced that makes it into leadership.

Merkel took the 1 Million refugees because Germany was incredibly short of Labour, and that was restricting production. If there was unemployment I doubt if she would have been so keen.
I think that shows Angela Merkel to be a moral leader. Not simply that her government took in a million refugees but, despite going through the same recession Britain has been in, there is far lower unemployment, and that has led to less hostility to refugees and asylum seekers. Then again, our government, through its friends in the press, actively fosters resentment against refugees and asylum seekers (amongst others) in a bid to boost its standing.

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If someone takes a shot at President Trump will his bodyguards shout "Donald Duck"?

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Garden Hermit
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# 109

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Germany has got 'rich' by beggaring its neighbours particularly with the EURO. Italy, Spain, Greece, Portugal and Ireland are all much poorer because of the EURO which benefits no-one accept the German Economy, - and Merkel has imposed a rigid economic system on those Countries causing Mass Unemployment and Austerity.
Posts: 1410 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
Germany has got 'rich' by beggaring its neighbours particularly with the EURO. Italy, Spain, Greece, Portugal and Ireland are all much poorer because of the EURO which benefits no-one accept the German Economy

Which would be why the Eurozone economies are growing faster than the US and other countries. And, the economic growth in Germany is only average - Spain and Ireland have experienced much greater economic growth, the economic problems for Greece are such that they'd have struggled with the global turndown regardless of being in the Eurozone or not - and arguably maintaining a currency that held it's value helped by preventing the value of savings, pension funds etc evaporating.

The requirements on Greece, the austerity measures, were not imposed by the German government. They were imposed by the ECB, IMF and the banks that the Greek government owed money to.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31683 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

The requirements on Greece, the austerity measures, were not imposed by the German government. They were imposed by the ECB, IMF and the banks that the Greek government owed money to.

The requirements on Greece were imposed by the Greek people themselves, by their decades of underpaying taxes, overclaiming benefits, and ignoring those amongst them who were in real need.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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