Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Martin McGuiness - Saint or Sinner ?
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Garden Hermit: I remember the British Army being sent into Northern Ireland by Harold Wilson in 1969 to protect the Catholics who were being attacked by Protestants, and remember clearly a row of Catholic Houses on Fire after such an attack. It was the Catholics who were subject to an appalling system of Apartheid in Jobs, Housing and Voting Rights in those days. When the IRA started there was always a lot of tacit support for them in the Catholic Community.
I thought that originally the IRA were seen as defensive, against attacks by loyalist gangs and the police. And later, in fact, defense against the Army.
But this quickly morphed into the 'armed struggle', and issues about a united Ireland.
I guess that a loyalist would tell you that the police were attacked by civil rights protesters and the IRA from the beginning. Narratives abound.
There is also the issue of the 'gerrrymandered statelet', as described by nationalists and Republicans.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Dave W.
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# 8765
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by fletcher christian: Posted by Dave: quote: Are we adding transatlantic telepathy to time travel now?
What precisely about this conversation lit a fire under you?
So you've got nothing, is that it?
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fletcher christian
 Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Nothing for you.
-------------------- 'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe' Staretz Silouan
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Marvin the Martian
 Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic: quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: We can either decry that they took up arms and did disgusting things or celebrate that they stopped and changed.
Can we not do both? In fact isn't it quite important that we do both?
Absolutely. It is, of course, good when any violent criminal renounces their violent criminality - but that renunciation does not excuse the violent criminality in any way or remove the need for justice to be done.
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic: quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: We can either decry that they took up arms and did disgusting things or celebrate that they stopped and changed.
Can we not do both? In fact isn't it quite important that we do both?
Absolutely. It is, of course, good when any violent criminal renounces their violent criminality - but that renunciation does not excuse the violent criminality in any way or remove the need for justice to be done.
But what is justice? Punishment of the guilty, even if that punishment forstalls peace? I think Mandela had it right.
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
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betjemaniac
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# 17618
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic: quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: We can either decry that they took up arms and did disgusting things or celebrate that they stopped and changed.
Can we not do both? In fact isn't it quite important that we do both?
Absolutely. It is, of course, good when any violent criminal renounces their violent criminality - but that renunciation does not excuse the violent criminality in any way or remove the need for justice to be done.
But what is justice? Punishment of the guilty, even if that punishment forstalls peace? I think Mandela had it right.
Did he though? I'm not sure South Africa's far enough down the road for us to judge whether it has worked or not. Certainly it prevented the initial explosion of the powder keg but at what future cost we're yet to see. At least the Truth and Reconciliation side of things provided a safety valve to an extent.
Spain took an even more damaging in the long term approach with its post-Franco "pact of forgetfulness." This basically said "bad things have been done on both sides during and since the Civil War, let's just act like they haven't. And no, we won't be digging up the mass grave on the edge of your village or prosecuting anyone." That's unravelling at the moment, after more or less keeping a lid on things for 40-odd years.
Ultimately, I'm not sure anything other than punishment of the guilty (on whatever side) works in the end. Just sometimes you have to wait for things to die down before you go after them.
As someone who visits South Africa regularly, I'd love to think that the can hasn't been kicked down the road, but I'm afraid that's what it looks like sometimes. Perhaps that just means that everyone else there is failing to live up to Mandela's standards and wisdom. Alternatively, perhaps it means he was unrealistic in the first place. I'd like him to have been right, but it's difficult to see how the jury is anything other than out on that one.
-------------------- And is it true? For if it is....
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Marvin the Martian
 Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: But what is justice?
A significant part of it is the concept that everyone is equal before the law. I wouldn't be able to murder hundreds of people then walk away unmolested while being hailed as a hero because I'd stopped murdering people, so why should he?
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
What's that got to do with social justice?
-------------------- Love wins
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: But what is justice?
A significant part of it is the concept that everyone is equal before the law. I wouldn't be able to murder hundreds of people then walk away unmolested while being hailed as a hero because I'd stopped murdering people, so why should he?
Because that was part of the peace deal. I thought there was an amnesty for loyalists and Republicans, well, those convicted of various crimes. There has been controversy as to whether this should also apply to police and Army personnel, especially murders 'off the book'. And also crimes not prosecuted, but I don't know about that.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: But what is justice?
A significant part of it is the concept that everyone is equal before the law. I wouldn't be able to murder hundreds of people then walk away unmolested while being hailed as a hero because I'd stopped murdering people, so why should he?
How shockingly democratic, MtM. The pragmatic answer is that you are not worth more than your sins. In regards to justice, is punishment of the individual worth the loss of more lives? Should McGuiness be hailed as a hero? Not in my book. But the killing and strife had to end somewhere and it would never be clean.
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
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Marvin the Martian
 Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: But what is justice?
A significant part of it is the concept that everyone is equal before the law. I wouldn't be able to murder hundreds of people then walk away unmolested while being hailed as a hero because I'd stopped murdering people, so why should he?
Because that was part of the peace deal.
OK. How many people do I have to kill before I can get "a peace deal" rather than "hunted down like a dog and locked up for the rest of my life"?
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: But what is justice?
A significant part of it is the concept that everyone is equal before the law. I wouldn't be able to murder hundreds of people then walk away unmolested while being hailed as a hero because I'd stopped murdering people, so why should he?
Because that was part of the peace deal.
OK. How many people do I have to kill before I can get "a peace deal" rather than "hunted down like a dog and locked up for the rest of my life"?
I'm not sure that you understand the politics of N. Ireland. It isn't a particular individual who gets a peace deal, but an amnesty for loyalists and Republicans who have committed various crimes. There are loyalist gunmen walking around the streets, and Republican gunmen walking around, but it seemed that most people preferred this to ongoing war. In other words, it was part of a whole package, including disarmament of various factions, and so on.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
Thing is, one could actually negotiate with both the loyalist and republican terrorists in Northern Ireland. The unhappy consensus at Stormont was at least an effort to try to give everyone something that they could live with and move forward together.
It is simply impossible to negotiate with an ideologue whose bottom-line position is that the other must be destroyed. We've moved from barbarism into madness.
-------------------- arse
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: But what is justice?
A significant part of it is the concept that everyone is equal before the law. I wouldn't be able to murder hundreds of people then walk away unmolested while being hailed as a hero because I'd stopped murdering people, so why should he?
Because that was part of the peace deal.
OK. How many people do I have to kill before I can get "a peace deal" rather than "hunted down like a dog and locked up for the rest of my life"?
And you were doing so well. That really is a ridiculous question, can you not see this?
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: ... Can you imagine Osama Bin Laden being let off scot free - and even celebrated - if he'd simply agreed to disband Al Quaeda and stop planning any more attacks against the West after 9/11? ...
Of course we can, and so can you, if that had been a possible price to pay to deliver some sort of peace and stability in the Middle East. 'Twas ever thus. Look at Kenyatta. It could have happened to Mugabe if he'd matured into a wise leader, father of a nation instead of an unstable tyrant. quote:
... Or Harold Shipman being allowed to continue his medical practice in peace if he promised to go back to curing his patients rather than killing them? ...
Obviously not. Peace and reconciliation with Shipman would not have had anything to offer anyone.
-------------------- Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Marvin the Martian
 Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: That really is a ridiculous question, can you not see this?
Thought experiment:
If the BNP had mounted a decades-long campaign of violence, terror and murder across the country in the attempt to further their political goals, would you have had the same attitude towards their leadership if and when they got tired of it all and decided to accept a power-sharing arrangement in Westminster?
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: That really is a ridiculous question, can you not see this?
Thought experiment:
If the BNP had mounted a decades-long campaign of violence, terror and murder across the country in the attempt to further their political goals, would you have had the same attitude towards their leadership if and when they got tired of it all and decided to accept a power-sharing arrangement in Westminster?
If and when the BNP have the support of about 40% of the population, who have been second-class citizens for decades if not centuries, then I'll treat that seriously.
-------------------- "He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: Thought experiment:
If the BNP had mounted a decades-long campaign of violence, terror and murder across the country in the attempt to further their political goals, would you have had the same attitude towards their leadership if and when they got tired of it all and decided to accept a power-sharing arrangement in Westminster?
The BNP do not represent anything other than a very small bunch of extreme idiots. In contrast, the Irish Republican movement includes a large number of people. So the two things are not even close to being the same thing.
You can't negotiate with the BNP, who want to reduce the rights of a significant proportion of the population in favour of white people. It is at least possible to negotiate with at least some Irish Republicans - the ones who are not wedded to complete destruction of the other and who are prepared to negotiate in the short term for things that may not completely fulfil their long-term goals.
It is pretty bloody difficult to see how the BNP could compromise or even what a compromise with the BNP would look like.
-------------------- arse
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Garden Hermit
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# 109
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Posted
It was long rumoured - unproven for many reasons - that both Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness went round in Armour-Proofed Cars (courtesy of HMG) because they were regarded as Traitors by many in the IRA movements. (there were lots of splinter groups, IRA, Real IRA, Provos etc.) If that is true then both showed considerable courage in talking to HMG. Several 'Army Grasses' have been executed since the cease fire by the Republican Paramilitaries. One unanswered question from the Troubles is why Gerry and Martin weren't shot by the Protestant Paramilitaries (the UVF). It would have been easy to do. The one thing that died a long time ago in N.I. was 'Truth'.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: That really is a ridiculous question, can you not see this?
Thought experiment:
If the BNP had mounted a decades-long campaign of violence, terror and murder across the country in the attempt to further their political goals, would you have had the same attitude towards their leadership if and when they got tired of it all and decided to accept a power-sharing arrangement in Westminster?
This is a better line of attack, though still faulty. For what great and real injustice does the BNP stand? Have immigrants truly ruled the white English for so long and with such injustice? Whilst I decry the IRA and its tactics, that which fueled it was at least in part real. [ 22. March 2017, 16:12: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Garden Hermit: It was long rumoured - unproven for many reasons - that both Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness went round in Armour-Proofed Cars (courtesy of HMG) because they were regarded as Traitors by many in the IRA movements. (there were lots of splinter groups, IRA, Real IRA, Provos etc.) If that is true then both showed considerable courage in talking to HMG. Several 'Army Grasses' have been executed since the cease fire by the Republican Paramilitaries. One unanswered question from the Troubles is why Gerry and Martin weren't shot by the Protestant Paramilitaries (the UVF). It would have been easy to do. The one thing that died a long time ago in N.I. was 'Truth'.
I thought they were left alone, as killing them would have produced a massive counter-attack, and possibly, a real civil war, even sucking in the Republic. Didn't the Republicans leave Paisley alone? Well, I guess some people would feel OK about a civil war.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The analogy with BNP is poor, as it leaves out the combination of nationalism, loyalism, UK forces, the Irish Republic in the south, and of course, the history of it all. As Terence MacSwiney said, 'we are prepared to suffer the most', (Lord Mayor of Cork).
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Garden Hermit
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# 109
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Posted
The Civil Rights Movement to bring justice to the Catholic Community was formed in Belfast on 9 April 1967. The Christian Peace Group - the Corrymeela Community - was founded in 1965 by Ray Davey. The UVF (Protestant Paramilataries)declared War on the IRA and fired the first shots in carried out three attacks on Catholics in Belfast (May 1968). Upto this point the IRA had not fired a gun) I give these facts to show 1. There was a Peace Movement to redress the iniquities of the Catholics, and therefore violence didn't need to be shown. 2. It was the Protestant Militaries who killed the first people. The Protestant Police did attack Civil Rights Marches both in Derry and Belfast. 3. It could be said that the Catholics through the IRA were only defending themselves at first.
The British Army was sent to protect Catholic Areas but after 6 months started to become the Targets. From this point Martin McGuiness took an active role in the Violence. There was no need. The British Government was on the Catholics side and there was a peaceful alternative.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Just going back to the BNP analogy, some of the loyalists seem rather like them, and they were also given an amnesty.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Heavens, please don't let this thread turn into a debate about who started the violence in Northern Ireland.
-------------------- arse
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Garden Hermit: The Civil Rights Movement to bring justice to the Catholic Community was formed in Belfast on 9 April 1967. The Christian Peace Group - the Corrymeela Community - was founded in 1965 by Ray Davey. The UVF (Protestant Paramilataries)declared War on the IRA and fired the first shots in carried out three attacks on Catholics in Belfast (May 1968). Upto this point the IRA had not fired a gun) I give these facts to show 1. There was a Peace Movement to redress the iniquities of the Catholics, and therefore violence didn't need to be shown. 2. It was the Protestant Militaries who killed the first people. The Protestant Police did attack Civil Rights Marches both in Derry and Belfast. 3. It could be said that the Catholics through the IRA were only defending themselves at first.
The British Army was sent to protect Catholic Areas but after 6 months started to become the Targets. From this point Martin McGuiness took an active role in the Violence. There was no need. The British Government was on the Catholics side and there was a peaceful alternative.
Yes, that's where I lose the thread. I remember the argument that the IRA initially were a a defensive line against attacks by police and loyalist gangs. And also the story that the army were at first greeted warmly, cups of tea, and so on.
But I can't remember at what point this turned to hostility. Obviously, Bloody Sunday was a turning point. But apart from that, I don't know. The history books say that 'relations soured' with the army, as raids on houses increased, and there were allegations of army killings and collusion with loyalists. Of course, internment was a big mistake, people said that there were queues to join the Provisionals in broad daylight in the street, maybe this is another legend.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Garden Hermit: One unanswered question from the Troubles is why Gerry and Martin weren't shot by the Protestant Paramilitaries (the UVF). It would have been easy to do. The one thing that died a long time ago in N.I. was 'Truth'.
And lo! there was this... Admittedly, not UVF, but UDA.
I remember this very well, Garden Hermit, because I recall everyone at the time laughing themselves silly at the thought that the Prod paras were so hopeless, they couldn't even kill a Shinner at point-blank range! It was 'accepted fact' that while the Republicans were well trained (thank you, Libya), well financed (thank you, America) and well protected (thank you, Rome), the poor bloody Prods were as effective in their campaigns as a chocolate teapot. So went the story.
Not entirely true, of course. But there was across the Protestant population that day a universal rolling of the eyes, when the news report came out about the botched assassination attempt; as much as to say, 'yep, par for the course, that!'
-------------------- Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: Yes, that's where I lose the thread. I remember the argument that the IRA initially were a a defensive line against attacks by police and loyalist gangs. And also the story that the army were at first greeted warmly, cups of tea, and so on.
I wouldn't challenge this view too strongly. But only to remind us, that the IRA - originally the Irish Republican Brethren - began its campaign for Irish independence in the late 18th century, and at no stage ever reneged on its campaign aim to 'free' all of Ireland's counties, including The Six Counties in The North.
In its earliest days it was supported by - or at least had allied interests with - many Protestants who wanted independence for Ireland, and were against Partition; including some sections of the Presbyterian Church. In fact, one IRB hero, Sam Maguire, who was also responsible for introducing Michael Collins to the organization, was a Republican Church of Ireland man from County Cork.
By the 1960s, things had died down a little too much for some of the boys in the RA, and needless to say a British army 'invading' The Six Counties - on the top of the Civil unrest - was just the gift they wanted to get up and running again, and firing on all cylinders. What alternative there could've been, I don't know. Very messy. But political opportunism has never been too far away from whatever so-called principles the IRA ever affected to espouse.
-------------------- Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Very good posts, Anselmina, and by Garden Hermit. Very informative.
Of course, you could say that the Brits never miss an opportunity to fuck up big time, but maybe that is another legend.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Garden Hermit
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# 109
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Posted
The best bit I can find on the start of the IRA Violence is http://www.iisresource.org/Documents/DM01_Outline_Answer.pdf However that still doesn't really answer the question as to why the IRA turned on the Army, - although Catholics/Republicans had for many years been brought up on a diet of disliking the 'British', - particularly its Government and Army. Maybe only McGuiness knew the real answer to all that.
The importance of establishing the cause of the Conflict does have a bearing on why McGuiness got involved. If he saw his role as 'defending' his Neighbours he can be understood in a more positive light; but if he saw an 'opportunity' to unite the North with the South his legacy seems much more tarnished.
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Ultimately, I'm not sure anything other than punishment of the guilty (on whatever side) works in the end. Just sometimes you have to wait for things to die down before you go after them.
I think this is a somewhat modern view of things that ignores the large number of guilty people who have escaped punishment down the ages (and down to this day). After several generations things have been (mostly) forgotten, and people go on as before.
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Garden Hermit: One unanswered question from the Troubles is why Gerry and Martin weren't shot by the Protestant Paramilitaries (the UVF). It would have been easy to do. The one thing that died a long time ago in N.I. was 'Truth'.
My father, who had an interest in current affairs, always used to wonder how Ian Paisly managed to endlessly rant in the way he liked to do without ever being plugged by a keen eye and a sniper's rifle. Things are rarely what they seem in these situations. Innocent folk inevertably make up a far greater proportion of the casualty list than those you might rightly expect to see there.
-------------------- Change is the only certainty of existence
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chris stiles
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# 12641
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by rolyn: My father, who had an interest in current affairs, always used to wonder how Ian Paisly managed to endlessly rant in the way he liked to do without ever being plugged by a keen eye and a sniper's rifle.
ISTR he had a regular spot where he turned up to preach in the open air - I assume that it was felt that making him a martyr would be more harmful than allowing him to continue to rant.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
I thought Paisley was out of bounds. It would have led to utter carnage, and the person killing him would be killed, and probably tortured first.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Prester John
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# 5502
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Posted
I had thought that there had been campaigns by the IRA in the 40's and 50's, even before backlash against the Civil Rights movement in the late 60's.
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: I thought Paisley was out of bounds. It would have led to utter carnage, and the person killing him would be killed, and probably tortured first.
I was often under the impression, from years of news and comment, that the various paramilitary Loyalists were given to greater acts of barbarism than the IRA. But then what did any of us know about what was really going on.
The UK public were constantly fed bias news and mock appeasement in the form of the Birmingham six and the Guildford four. At one time the captured IRA perps were wicked criminals then, after stalemate set in they morphed into Political prisoners.
-------------------- Change is the only certainty of existence
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Garden Hermit: Maybe only McGuiness knew the real answer to all that.
Unfortunately only McGuiness knew the real answer to many things, answers which he never shared in order to allow bereaved families to get closure. In 2007 the PSNI decided it had enough evidence to question him with regards to the Claudy bombings of of 1972, otherwise known as Bloody Monday in which 9 people, including an 8 year old girl and 2 teenagers, were killed by 3 car bombs. But it was considered too politically sensitive to pursue it. In fact he has taken the answers to many unsolved murders to his grave.
I reiterate my universalist belief, that all will be brought to repentance, but I don't believe that forgiveness comes until we've acknowledged and experienced the pain of our own actions. There's no evidence that this cold and vicious killer renounced violence because he regretted it or believed it was wrong. He simply realised that the IRA was a busted flush, and that he would never terrorise the people of Northern Ireland or the British government to capitulate to his demands. In the GFA, he and his conies were successful in obtaining immunity from prosecution for their vile acts. Yet members of the RUC, the PSNI and the British Army were granted no parallel immunity even though they were merely serving their country where they happened to be. Another of Tony Blair's glowing achievements.
We are not God, but why should the State forgive those who neither repent nor confess their sins?
-------------------- Yours in Christ Paul
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by PaulTH*:
We are not God, but why should the State forgive those who neither repent nor confess their sins?
OK, now rephrase this as if you (a) believe you are in a war and (b) don't recognise the legitimacy of the State powers you are fighting.
It isn't as obvious as you make out.
-------------------- arse
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
Colin and Wendy Parry, parents who lost a son to an IRA bomb in Warrington said that they could never forgive the IRA for killing their son, but interesting also said they got on well with McGuiness on a personal level and often shared a platform with him.
According to the Warrington Guardian, McGuiness said this of them: quote:
"I admire tremendously Colin and Wendy Parry - I think what they went through was absolutely horrendous and the brand of republicanism that I represent was responsible for that."
"Their hearts were broken by us."
"I think that Colin being prepared to meet with me in Warrington, and Wendy, was a massively courageous act on their part.
They could quite easily have taken the easy way out and said 'we are not going to meet with someone who effectively was a representative of the brand of republicanism that took our son'.
"These are two very, very special people and I think that all of us who are determined to, even against the backdrop of all the setbacks, move the peace process forward - the more people like Colin and Wendy who are prepared to put their head above the parapet, who are prepared to do that, then as those people come forward then the stronger the demand will be from every section of our community that we have to be reconciled as a people - not just the Catholics and Protestants of the North, but the entire community in the North and people in the South as well, but also with the people in this island with the people in Britain. I think the journey we are on is a remarkable journey."
Maybe the reason he never "apologised" was that he recognised the deep pain that people felt was far beyond anything that could be undone by saying sorry. [ 22. March 2017, 20:02: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
-------------------- arse
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TurquoiseTastic
 Fish of a different color
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Prester John: I had thought that there had been campaigns by the IRA in the 40's and 50's, even before backlash against the Civil Rights movement in the late 60's.
Certainly, as Anselmina points out. But these campaigns were very ineffective and so was the organisation in general - almost a joke, really, so that Flanders and Swann could sing in the 1960s...
"He blows up policemen, or so I have heard And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third!" (Song of Patriotic Prejudice)
But by the late 1970s things were very different. A former soldier rather winningly described them as "by far the best terrorists I've encountered - they were really good at what they did..."
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PaulTH*
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# 320
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: OK, now rephrase this as if you (a) believe you are in a war and (b) don't recognise the legitimacy of the State powers you are fighting.
Throughout the Troubles we all heard a lot about how the IRA didn't recognise the legitimacy of the State in which they were born and lived. We say them turn their backs on the judges sentencing them in court as recognition of this. And we heard it used as apologetics for their murderous campaign. Like many other people, I don't accept that argument. The Nationalists in Northern Ireland were never disenfranchised. Their problem was that they were a minority and so couldn't get what they wanted. They were neither expelled nor prevented from leaving. No Cyprus type enforced partition. But many times, over a period of 50 years, they refused to participate in civic matters as a protest against recognition of the State.
There were undoubtedly justifiable grievances, inequalities which needed to be redressed and wrongs which needed to be righted. A Civil Rights movement similar to that of Black America in the 1960's was justified. But the bomb and the bullet never. Because nobody took away their vote nor prevented them voting with their feet. But it was part of 20th century Irish Nationalism's obsession with the inclusion of the gun in politics. A good argument could be made against the partition of Ireland in 1922, that it gerrymandered a corner of the island into a Unionist Statelet. But when we look at what De Valera's government did with the 26 counties, can the Unionists be blamed for not wanting to be part of it?
De Valera liked to peddle the myth of an idyllic rural Ireland with "comely maidens dancing at crossroads and the romping of sturdy children" but this was the country where the Church was so much above the law that it presided over the Magdalene Laundries and where unwanted bastards were starved of food and medical attention and buried in mass graves in Tuam. Home rule certainly meant Rome rule back then.
That Martin McGuiness and people like him were raised in a culture which didn't recognise the state they lived in and thought it right to take up arms against it is no reason why we should condone or sympathise with it. It's still murder and treason.
-------------------- Yours in Christ Paul
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
It should be remembered that many IRA men refused to recognize the courts in the Republic of Ireland as well.
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Jay-Emm
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by quetzalcoatl: Exclamation Mark claimed "The peace process owes a lot to the Twin Towers" - this is ridiculous.
I heard it as being Omagh (which was 98), that shocked things down. (but not sure if that was a mistaken impression, wiki seems to suggest it followed the GFriA, but preceeded an RIRA ceasefire)
Regardless I think 9/11 did seem to have an effect on European terrorist movements and the associated governments (both in terms of powers they could use, and not wanting to be too stupid).
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Dave W.
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# 8765
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Posted
To spare quetzalcoatl's blushes - that quote's from me.
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Ricardus
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# 8757
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Posted
It may be true that Mr McGuinness would have abandoned the peace process if the Twin Towers hadn't happened but to judge him for actions that his alternative self might have committed in a counterfactual parallel universe seems somewhat excessive.
-------------------- Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: Maybe the reason he never "apologised" was that he recognised the deep pain that people felt was far beyond anything that could be undone by saying sorry. [/QB]
That's a big "maybe" but also a brilliant cop out if you think about it - "I don't need to apologise because nothing will make it better."
You're also assuming something in McGuinness' mind but projecting rather a lot more onto the families of the victims.
Maybe he never apologised because he didn't repent and/or he was too embarrassed to take a further step that might just show a further weakness in the eyes of his comrades. Maybe.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ExclamationMark: That's a big "maybe" but also a brilliant cop out if you think about it - "I don't need to apologise because nothing will make it better."
It is only a cop out if you think it is easier and/or better to say sorry or to visit the family of someone who died in an attack you were involved in and listen and appreciate their pain.
A true apology is more than just words. There are some things you can't apologise for, others for which an apology is completely inadequate and some where the only sensible way forward is to seek to reach out across the barricades to those who are hurt and resolve to make the future as better as much as it can possibly be - acknowledging the hurt, the loss, the pain and the terror that you, and the movement you represent, have caused.
quote: You're also assuming something in McGuinness' mind but projecting rather a lot more onto the families of the victims.
No, I'm listening to the words of victims who have met McGuiness and often say that they found him to be an open person even when they said to his face that the things he had done were unforgivable.
quote: Maybe he never apologised because he didn't repent and/or he was too embarrassed to take a further step that might just show a further weakness in the eyes of his comrades. Maybe.
If you are too embarrassed or too selfish or too egoistic or too full of your own right-ness, you don't go and meet victims and you don't humble yourself by saying in public that your side caused great hurt and pain to an uninvolved family.
Incidentally, he already showed weakness to some of his comrades by going into power-sharing with the DUP, in visiting a war grave and in shaking the hand of the British monarch.
-------------------- arse
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by mr cheesy: No, I'm listening to the words of victims who have met McGuiness and often say that they found him to be an open person even when they said to his face that the things he had done were unforgivable.
I'm sure that Martin McGuiness was humbled by his meeting with Colin and Wendy Parry. I don't know much about the Parrys, whether for example, they have strong Christian conviction. But whatever they have, they are an example to all humanity of Christ's words on the cross, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." It tells us much more about Colin and Wendy than it does about Martin.
-------------------- Yours in Christ Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by PaulTH*: It tells us much more about Colin and Wendy than it does about Martin.
Well, there we disagree. Burying the hatchet is a two-way process. It requires acceptance from both sides of the Other, even if that meeting begins with frostiness and straight talking.
-------------------- arse
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Marvin the Martian
 Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: For what great and real injustice does the BNP stand?
Ah, so it's an "ends justify the means" argument?
quote: Whilst I decry the IRA and its tactics, that which fueled it was at least in part real.
I don't care how real your grievances are, they do not justify murdering hundreds of innocent people. I would not have anticipated that being a controversial statement.
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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