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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Martin McGuiness - Saint or Sinner ?
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I don't care how real your grievances are, they do not justify murdering hundreds of innocent people. I would not have anticipated that being a controversial statement.
So, out of interest, what have you done about drones launched by the USA and the UK which have killed innocents? Do you think the nukes dropped on Japan were justified?
In the event of an invasion by Germany during WW2, do you agree that the correct response of the population would have been to "keep calm and carry on" or to resist in whatever way was available?
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Ultimately, I'm not sure anything other than punishment of the guilty (on whatever side) works in the end. Just sometimes you have to wait for things to die down before you go after them.
I think this is a somewhat modern view of things that ignores the large number of guilty people who have escaped punishment down the ages (and down to this day). After several generations things have been (mostly) forgotten, and people go on as before.
By that logic we could close down every court and release every prisoner in the country. After all, in several generations they will all be (mostly) forgotten.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I don't care how real your grievances are, they do not justify murdering hundreds of innocent people. I would not have anticipated that being a controversial statement.
So, out of interest, what have you done about drones launched by the USA and the UK which have killed innocents?
I voted out the UK government that decided following the US into Afghanistan/Iraq was the right thing to do. Unfortunately the subsequent government has continued the drone strikes, but there isn't really a third option to vote for.
quote:
Do you think the nukes dropped on Japan were justified?
The nukes are a grey area because there is an argument that they ultimately saved more lives than they destroyed by persuading Japan to surrender rather than fighting to the last man. In an all-out total war such difficult decisions have to be made, and there is seldom an option that avoids any death at all.
I'll be happy to join you in decrying the firebombing of Dresden as a war crime, though. That served no meaningful tactical or strategic purpose.
quote:
In the event of an invasion by Germany during WW2, do you agree that the correct response of the population would have been to "keep calm and carry on" or to resist in whatever way was available?
In an alternate 2017 where Germany won the war and Britain had been under Nazi rule for the last 60+ years, I would not agree that bombing a shopping centre in Munich was a legitimate means of resistance. Resistance against occupying armed forces is one thing, killing innocent civilians is another.
If the IRA had stuck to military targets I would have had far less of a problem with them.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Ultimately, I'm not sure anything other than punishment of the guilty (on whatever side) works in the end. Just sometimes you have to wait for things to die down before you go after them.
I think this is a somewhat modern view of things that ignores the large number of guilty people who have escaped punishment down the ages (and down to this day). After several generations things have been (mostly) forgotten, and people go on as before.
By that logic we could close down every court and release every prisoner in the country. After all, in several generations they will all be (mostly) forgotten.
It isn't necessarily meant to be prescriptive but descriptive, and a response to betjemaniac's contention that "I'm not sure anything other than punishment of the guilty (on whatever side) works in the end".
The fact is that plenty of the guilty have escaped punishment over the years, and continue to do so in various parts of the world (including the UK)
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
For what great and real injustice does the BNP stand?
Ah, so it's an "ends justify the means" argument?
quote:
Whilst I decry the IRA and its tactics, that which fueled it was at least in part real.
I don't care how real your grievances are, they do not justify murdering hundreds of innocent people. I would not have anticipated that being a controversial statement.
Not to you or me, they did to them. They did to the murderer in Westminster yesterday. Who gives a damn about justification stories? Apart from as symptoms? How can we prevent this?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Interesting comparisons with Michael Collins, ruthless killer, politician and negotiator. One big difference was that Collins' career was much shorter - he was killed in 1922, and only two years before, he had organized the killing of the Cairo gang, (and other British agents).
You can probably also cite differences in the political history - Collins was involved in the war of independence, McGuinness was involved in a kind of distorted version of it.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
For what great and real injustice does the BNP stand?
Ah, so it's an "ends justify the means" argument?
Not at all what I said.
quote:
quote:
Whilst I decry the IRA and its tactics, that which fueled it was at least in part real.
I don't care how real your grievances are, they do not justify murdering hundreds of innocent people. I would not have anticipated that being a controversial statement.
Show me where I said the end justifies the means. Show me where I argue that murdering people is acceptable collateral. I'd say that I'd wait, but as I didn't say those things, that would be a bit of forever.
In simple terms: What the IRA did was bad even though their intentions might have been better than their actions. The BNP isn't a good counter example as they are naught but evil.
This is not a zero-sum situation. It would further the discussion if you did not treat it so.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
Really don't want to start discussing the BNP, but they reflected a deep dissatisfaction of many of the ordinary 'working class' who felt they were being left behind and blamed immigration for their troubles. Gordon Brown's dismissal of Mrs Duffy's worries as being 'Racist' is a good example of why people started voting BNP. Luckily for the UK most of that vote went to UKIP and the BNP disappeared overnight. Its always good to look at the problems behind the outward rhetoric. I suggest there are many places in the World where there are a 'significant minority' who think they have been 'left behind' and often have been with Life-long work being replaced by Zero Hour Contracts. (There's enough new themes in there to keep you all busy for a year)
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Show me where I said the end justifies the means. Show me where I argue that murdering people is acceptable collateral. I'd say that I'd wait, but as I didn't say those things, that would be a bit of forever.
You appear to be saying that murdering people is less bad if the people doing it have a cause that you agree with.
quote:
In simple terms: What the IRA did was bad even though their intentions might have been better than their actions. The BNP isn't a good counter example as they are naught but evil.
The point of the counter example was to illustrate that your perception of how bad something is appears to be directly liked to how worthy you think the cause in which is done happens to be. Your answer confirms that.
For the avoidance of doubt, my position is that killing innocent civilians by bombing a shopping centre is just as evil and wrong if it's done by the BNP, the IRA, or anyone else.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Show me where I said the end justifies the means. Show me where I argue that murdering people is acceptable collateral. I'd say that I'd wait, but as I didn't say those things, that would be a bit of forever.
You appear to be saying that murdering people is less bad if the people doing it have a cause that you agree with. ...
LilBuddha, it wasn't just Marvin the Martian who picked up the impression that that was what you thought. I did too.
Going back to what Garden Hermit said, feeling left behind by society may explain why some people get involved in the BNP. Nevertheless, if something is wrong being able to explain why some people do it, doesn't excuse it or somehow make it less wrong. Even if 'my wife/husband doesn't understand me' is in that person's case true, doesn't somehow make adultery less treacherous.
[ 24. March 2017, 14:09: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
For the avoidance of doubt, my position is that killing innocent civilians by bombing a shopping centre is just as evil and wrong if it's done by the BNP, the IRA, or anyone else.
This is my position as well. My "anyone else" includes the military as well.
But none of my statements is about this. What I am saying is that taking McGuinness to trial would not have been worth the lives it likely would have cost.
Ending the violence as peacefully as possible served better than giving everyone what they deserved.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, some people don't seem to understand the peace deal, as if it meant letting off some Republican murderers, and that's it. It also meant letting off loyalist murderers, and of course, the withdrawal of various groups from violence, even the gruesome INLA. Plus of course, shared government. It's a no-brainer, isn't it?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, some people don't seem to understand the peace deal, as if it meant letting off some Republican murderers, and that's it. It also meant letting off loyalist murderers, and of course, the withdrawal of various groups from violence, even the gruesome INLA. Plus of course, shared government. It's a no-brainer, isn't it?
Yes, actually it really is. The Good Friday Agreement and the subsequent (more or less) lasting peace probably represents the best outcome for Ulster that was realistically possible given the appalling state it was in 30 years ago. Yes, the fact that mass murderers were set free or never tried is extremely distasteful, but the alternative was to perpetuate the cycle of violence, "adding yet more darkness to a night already without stars", as MLK put it.
The fact that politics in NI these days is about housing and schools and creating jobs, rather than keeping the Fenians in their place or killing as many Brits as possible, is one of the great good news stories of modern Britain. Whether the settlement will survive Brexit remains to be seen.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Or will survive the death of McGuinness? I wonder if some Unionists are ruing his death, as he had the authority to lead the Republicans, along with Adams, and also rap the knuckles of the nutters, as far as he could. Is there anyone else who can do this?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Interesting comparisons with Michael Collins, ruthless killer, politician and negotiator. One big difference was that Collins' career was much shorter - he was killed in 1922, and only two years before, he had organized the killing of the Cairo gang, (and other British agents).
You can probably also cite differences in the political history - Collins was involved in the war of independence, McGuinness was involved in a kind of distorted version of it.
It is interesting: the Squad were certainly ruthless killers, but did they ever indiscriminately target innocents, as opposed to agents of the British state?
Given de Valera's ruthless elimination of IRA men who threatened the Free State, McGuiness was lucky that he never met the real McCoy.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
A few things - The Border between North and South Ireland has always been regarded as an 'Economic Opportunity' - usually spelt D I S H O N E S T. So when there was a ban on Contraceptives in the South they were obtained from the North, and when British Beef was banned because of BSE it was quickly re-labelled Irish and move across the Border. The British Army couldn't stop cross-border 'trade' and neither can anyone else.
I once made joke about the Rev Iain Paisley. I was scolded by a Catholic who told me he was the best MP/MEP anyone could wish for. As soon as there was a problem - such as a Harbour Wall destroyed in a Storm - he was on the phone to London and Bruxelles and within the Hour the £Millions needed for repair was given
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
That's an important point. Any attempt to impose a hard border will turn Fermanagh into bandit country again. No doubt there are "retired" paramilitaries on both sides who would grasp that
business opportunity with both hands, and where there's smuggling, there are gangs and violence. With McGuiness and Paisley no longer around to impose some discipline, things could get toxic quite quickly.
[ 27. March 2017, 09:21: Message edited by: Rocinante ]
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Interesting comparisons with Michael Collins, ruthless killer, politician and negotiator. One big difference was that Collins' career was much shorter - he was killed in 1922, and only two years before, he had organized the killing of the Cairo gang, (and other British agents).
You can probably also cite differences in the political history - Collins was involved in the war of independence, McGuinness was involved in a kind of distorted version of it.
It is interesting: the Squad were certainly ruthless killers, but did they ever indiscriminately target innocents, as opposed to agents of the British state?
Given de Valera's ruthless elimination of IRA men who threatened the Free State, McGuiness was lucky that he never met the real McCoy.
You are probably right, and many people have described the 'degeneration' of the IRA, into various squalid gangs. Although, these things are very subjective of course, and the treatment of the early civil rights groups by the police was itself squalid.
I don't recollect Collins targeting civilians, although didn't he have a thing about bankers and other financial people, who supported the UK? I mean, he had them killed?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
That's an important point. Any attempt to impose a hard border will turn Fermanagh into bandit country again. No doubt there are "retired" paramilitaries on both sides who would grasp that
business opportunity with both hands, and where there's smuggling, there are gangs and violence. With McGuiness and Paisley no longer around to impose some discipline, things could get toxic quite quickly.
The situation now is pretty dicey, as it looks as if Sinn Fein are trying to get Arlene Foster sacked. But with the shenanigans over Brexit, I think you are right, that McGuinness and Paisley will be missed. Chaos looms.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
You are probably right, and many people have described the 'degeneration' of the IRA, into various squalid gangs. Although, these things are very subjective of course, and the treatment of the early civil rights groups by the police was itself squalid.
I don't recollect Collins targeting civilians, although didn't he have a thing about bankers and other financial people, who supported the UK? I mean, he had them killed?
Couldn't find details from a quick google, but wouldn't surprise me: the Squad had a particular beef with the murderers in the Cairo Gang, but targeted other agents of the British state.
That strategic ability's the crucial difference between the original republicans, and the gangsters who took their name: Collins and his comrades were no saints, but were statesmen-in-waiting, learned in Irish history and constitutional matters; McGuinness started out as an ill-educated street thug, tied up with an organization that indiscriminately slaughtered civilians. IRA men who tried similar antics in the Free State were promptly court martialed and shot.
In massacring civilians, and then, with internment, in kidnapping and torturing innocents, the British state was no better, behaving like another gang. Both parties were violent, but worse, incompetently violent.
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
That said, McGuinness became a statesman, and his contribution to the peace process was substantial. He deserves full credit for that. It's just a shame that so many have to give their lives for his education.
Guess the old Vulcan proverb applies: only Nixon could go to China.
With chaos threatening the north, in political terms if no other, he'll be sorely missed.
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Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109
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Posted
I read an article in the 'i' newspaper yesterday about McGuiness. Not at all flattering. And also an article in the Corrymeela Christian Peace Community in which he gave an interview which seemed very reasonable. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde came to mind.
Posts: 1413 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001
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