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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Behold, I set before you an open door
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
We are assessing the risks of starting to have our church unlocked and unstaffed during daylight hours - a beautiful Edwardian building in a UK urban setting. Our insurers indeed recommend "where appropriate that churches are kept open because of the positive effect that has on security." We will obviously lock away valuables and maybe install CCTV.
I'm interested in hearing Shipmates' experiences good and bad from having tried something similar. What are the potential risks we might have overlooked?
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
No experience good or bad, but unstaffed strikes me as folly. In my very mixed income neighbourhood, there's a nice but not elaborate church open for a few hours midday, nothing much worth taking, but they always have someone in situ. Theft and vandalism, sadly, are always possibilities. Being Christian doesn't preclude being realistic.
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I once interviewed for a job at a suburban church. The rector took me around to see the sanctuary. He said that it was kept locked. They used to leave it open day and night, but one night a drunk guy came in with a shotgun, and fired several rounds. Luckily the windows were not hit, but the bullets are still in the cross hanging above the altar -- you can see them.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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BabyWombat
Shipmate
# 18552
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Posted
My current parish had a long history to keeping the building open -- only sacristy and office were locked. There was no vandalism, despite the building being out of the town center and fairly isolated with field and woods around it. This even though the key to the sacristy (and the silver and the wine) was always kept under the cushion on the priest’s chair.
I am told it was not unusual for those coming to the early service to find some unknown person helping himself to the cold cereal and milk always kept in the kitchen, nor to find someone sleeping in the sanctuary. For years the rectory, on the property but distant from the church, was occupied, so there was some sort of distant “eyes on” but it stood empty for several years, and still no difficulty with open doors. Parishioners were quite proud of the opportunity to offer hospitality.
Then, the unexpected visitor found one morning was the teenage daughter of a parishioner, who had been entertaining a male friend. She’d accessed the sacristy key, and taken candles and the jug of altar wine to the library, where the couple was found, sound asleep. There was discussion and helpful counsel offered, but the entertaining continued with a series of different young men. Finally Vestry decided to lock the doors, in part to aid her in someway, and out of fear that there were now several young men who knew the sacristy key hiding place.
Now, with rectory empty, church locked and the parking area hidden from view by the church building, it is known as a good place for drug sales/use. “Hospitality” of a different kind, I fear.
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Let us, with a gladsome mind…..
Posts: 102 | From: US | Registered: Feb 2016
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
The female in question may have identified herself with the popularised persona of Mary Magdalene. Not sure about the fellow with the shotgun, reenactment of religious wars maybe?Both would have made for a more interesting PCC agenda than the usual dog poop in the graveyard and squeaky door hinge.
I've known locked Churches broken into and robbed while open Churches are sometimes left untouched, such is the psychology and honour of an unrepentant thief. Leave cash lying about and you could be asking for trouble, though strangely again, roadside honesty stalls don't tend to get robbed. Well, didn't used to.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Rosa Gallica officinalis
Shipmate
# 3886
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Posted
Not so much a risk as an opportunity. Don't assume that people who come in will know anything about the Christian faith. Find ways to share your faith through the fixtures and fittings.
eg Consider a typical guidebook comment:
“The c13 font is octagonal with two human and two beasts’ heads alternating with blank sides, with symbols of an anchor and cross beneath.”
compared to a notice, possibly bearing a photo of a recent baptism saying
The font is used for Baptism (washing with water)
The bible tell us Jesus told his followers to Go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you.
The font is close to the door because it is through baptism that people who want to follow Jesus Christ enter into membership of his church. This font has been used to welcome new members of the church here for 700 years.
Last year 6 babies, and one adult were baptised here. If you would like to know more about baptism please take a leaflet/ speak to…
Someone recently wrote in our visitors' book How do I find someone to talk to?- make sure the vicar/pastoral team contact details are easily available (and possibly Samaritans/ Domestic violence refuge)
[ 31. March 2017, 17:16: Message edited by: Rosa Gallica officinalis ]
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Come for tea, come for tea, my people.
Posts: 874 | From: The Hemlock Hideout | Registered: Jan 2003
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
The other entirely separate angle which should be considered is legal liability. This is especially important with the wine. Imagine if the young couple, having swigged down all the altar wine, hopped into the car and took off down the highway. After the collision, the ambulances, the hospital stays or funerals, the lawsuits. Who will the grieving parents/victims sue? Yes, the church, for not securing a dangerous substance (alcohol) safely.
This is sufficiently an issue in the US that we are very careful indeed with our wine and therefore our keys.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Urban, unlocked and unstaffed, even with CCTV, you're going to get rough sleepers, drug and alcohol addicts, fast food and sex and all other solo or group bodily functions. All but one or two of those gets done a literal stone's throw from our 'ouse, on the street, every night. I pick up ALL the remains with my grabber. A five minute walk further in to town and all of that and more goes on. Al fresco. Let alone under shelter. Garages are a good one. So an open church?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827
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Posted
Both my churches are open and unstaffed all day, and one of them all night too, as it has no lock! Never a problem, always an opportunity. Of course we are not in any way urban, but we do get tourists of all kinds.
As I unlockedl this morning I was able to offer the hospitality of the building to the tramp resting in the church garden. I showed him what was what and left him to it: everything was fine. I think if people feel welcomed they are more likely to have respect than if they feel rebuffed.
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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
Posts: 176 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
How do you unlock a lockless door?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The other entirely separate angle which should be considered is legal liability. This is especially important with the wine. Imagine if the young couple, having swigged down all the altar wine, hopped into the car and took off down the highway. After the collision, the ambulances, the hospital stays or funerals, the lawsuits. Who will the grieving parents/victims sue? Yes, the church, for not securing a dangerous substance (alcohol) safely.
This is sufficiently an issue in the US that we are very careful indeed with our wine and therefore our keys.
That may be so where you are, at least if the newspaper reports of US tort cases are to be believed. Any action would fail here, in England, Wales and Northern Ireland (can't speak of Scotland, totally different system of law) Canada and NZ. While in a general sense the church would undoubtedly owe a duty of care to those entering it, it's the content of the duty which is relevant, along with the standard of care. Then you have to deal with the legal principle summarisd as "volenti" - injury cannot be be done to a willing person.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I once interviewed for a job at a suburban church. The rector took me around to see the sanctuary. He said that it was kept locked. They used to leave it open day and night, but one night a drunk guy came in with a shotgun, and fired several rounds. Luckily the windows were not hit, but the bullets are still in the cross hanging above the altar -- you can see them.
Shotguns don't fire bullets. Do you mean pellets?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Sorry, I could not say. I have fantabulously bad eyesight, could not tell a pellet from a bullet at further than arm's length.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Qoholeth.--
Maybe I missed this, but is this a liturgical church? The kind of place where someone might drop in for a midday service, or a place to pray?
I much prefer a church, of any kind, that's open all day, every day. Some will have just one or two side doors unlocked. Others have several open, but have staff who occasionally walk through. One anonymous RC church here, a great place to pray and light candles, went from a cozy place that had free candles with a nearby donation box, to having a fairly large kiosk in the back, with candles of various sizes and prices, and someone to run the kiosk and keep an eye on things. IMHO, wrecked the feeling of the place.
If your church goes to one or two unlocked doors, just make sure they're accessible to the elderly and people with disabilities.
FWIW. YMMV.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
On the subject of unlocked churches:
A church where I was formerly employed was never locked (at least in those years). IIRC there was a notice on the door stating that 'This church is always open.'
It was a small, gothic-styled A-C parish church. There was a security system which protected the area east of the communion rail, and a sign saying so.
In the narthex/nave there were no portable items of value (other than hymnals, prayer books, etc), except for one or two small statues.
There were locked money drops set into the walls, for contributions, payments for tracts, candles, etc.
This was on a busy street corner, though not strictly urban.
And here's the kicker: The parish received a large and totally unexpected bequest from someone not a member; reason given in the bequest/will/whatever -- 'because the church is always open.'
So such things do happen.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Our church can only be stewarded at certain times. Otherwise, we suggest that parishioners drop in from time to time, to help make the church look busy and welcoming (and keep an eye out for anything amiss while they're at it).
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Local church, situated in the middle of market town in London commuter area, is open during daylight hours - lots of people wander in and out. Overnight is more of a problem as there have been rough sleepers using it when it hasn't been locked as there are no toilet facilities and the rough sleepers make do. The vestry is to the side and is where most of the valuables are locked away.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I think the "is this a liturgical church?" question is helpful. Congregation members and parishioners are much more likely to drop into such a church for a moment of reflection or prayer, than they are to drop into most Nonconformist churches. It's simply a different tradition.
Thus it is far less likely that there will be people around to "keep an eye on things" in the latter - but, I suspect, less advantage in keeping such churches open.
If a church is open and has stewards around, there's is a tricky task. On the one hand, do visitors see them as "security" or "welcomers"? And if they are welcomers, do they leave people to be quiet or do they actively greet? Not easy!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Many of the village Churches I go around to often have a sign on the door stating - 'No valuables are kept in this building'. This usually means they are open for visitors. Coin collection boxes are imaginatively built into a solid wall and would be difficult if not impossible to pinch.
Martin. Your world sounds as if it is a million miles from ours. I have only ever come across minor incidents of burglary and anti social behaviour in and around these rural Churches in 50 years.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Interesting thread. It did make me wonder what the pre-existing insurance required. In home insurance terms, premiums are affected by the quality of protection to property e.g. alarm systems, types of locks.
The chapel owned by my local congo is in a deprived urban area. It is used by lots of local associations during the week, as well as for church activities. But it is always locked when unattended. And it has been both burgled and vandalised. Insurance cover has made good the damage but I'm not sure we'd get cover renewed if we had an open chapel policy.
As Baptist Trainfan observed, there are different considerations with liturgical churches. But I would think the risks from burglary or damage or dossing would be the same, regardless of church type. Repair costs might be higher in liturgical churches; nonconformist chapels tend to be functional rather than beautiful!
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
In her book "Resourcing Mission: Practical Theology for Changing Churches", Helen Cameron describes five types of church. Germane to this discussion are two: the "parish" church which sits at the heart of a community and whose building is often valued and treasured by people who never worship there; and the "gathered" church. Obviously the former is typically Anglican and the latter typically Nonconformist.
More to the point, the former has buildings which are usually open, indeed that would be the norm. The latter would tend to open its buildings only for activities; however, even if it is open at other times, the "feel" is different - Cameron likens it to going into into a club where you are welcome but which still feels "private". I think she may have a point.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
St Sanity (with some nearby office blocks in a Sydney suburb) is open daylight hours 7 days a week. A sandwich board at the street advertises the availability. There's nothing of any great value in the church apart from a couple of good icons - but I doubt that any thief would realise their value. It is certainly worth staying open, as quite a few people working nearby sit in the grounds to eat lunch, and then go inside for some quiet reflection. Others come in at other times - a range of comments in the visitors' book suggests that it is a valued community service. We're prepared to take the risk.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
If a church is open and has stewards around, there's is a tricky task. On the one hand, do visitors see them as "security" or "welcomers"? And if they are welcomers, do they leave people to be quiet or do they actively greet? Not easy!
Yes, we regularly have discussions about getting the balance right. It's usually possible to tell, when someone comes in, whether they wish to quietly light a candle and/or pray, whether they are tourists wishing to look round or whether they have popped in to make an enquiry. Of course we sometimes get it wrong, but we do our best to take our cue from them. Even a wary eye has to be couched in a smile of welcome - not everyone who looks like a dodgy character necessarily is one!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
Thank you all for your thoughts and contributions so far. This is, indeed, a 'liturgical' Anglican church, with the opportunity for people to stop and sit and pray. We are open and stewarded on Saturday mornings during the summer, and receive many visitors. "Wow, how beautiful! I didn't know it was like this inside" is a common comment. Our sister church is bang in the town centre, much as CK's, and is open all day. They have CCTV as a deterrent and typically, a bit of minor vandalism once every few years.
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Our backstreet A-C place is in a run-down Urban Priority Area, and has very little 'passing trade'. If we kept it open all day, which I personally would like to do, we would probably end up with it full of dog-poo, fast-food litter, etc. (courtesy of the neighbouring population, which at present simply chucks such debris into the churchyard).
OTOH, we are open on Saturday mornings for any visitors, baptism enquiries etc., and the kettle is always on. IMHO, we need to make more of this, and our late churchwarden (RIPARIG) wanted to start a 'Community Cafe' on that day, something which we would do well to pursue. Our former priest-in-charge was not interested, as it interfered with his 'domestic arrangements', but now he's gone, we could perhaps make a start.
At the moment, opening on other weekdays is not really feasible, as most our congo are either at work, or looking after the kidz (or both). I hope to persuade the PCC to agree to a mid-week lunchtime service, which would at least allow the doors to be opened for a couple of hours (service - 25 minutes max.!).
I sympathise with those whose churches have to be kept locked perforce, as they're probably in areas which could most do with some readily-available 'sacred space'.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
They have CCTV as a deterrent and typically, a bit of minor vandalism once every few years.
That is the experience of my former shack, which I still lock on Thursday as I like the thought of its being open, and I work just round the corner.
It seems to me to be a vital service when space which is not demanding any interaction with/from its occupants is at such a premium in our towns and cities. Plenty to interact with, but no noise being made and nothing insisting that visitors say or do anything in particular.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Just so, and full marks for helping to keep the church open!
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Many of the village Churches I go around to often have a sign on the door stating - 'No valuables are kept in this building'. This usually means they are open for visitors. Coin collection boxes are imaginatively built into a solid wall and would be difficult if not impossible to pinch.
Martin. Your world sounds as if it is a million miles from ours. I have only ever come across minor incidents of burglary and anti social behaviour in and around these rural Churches in 50 years.
I was in rural Wales, Cenarth, a couple of years ago. A couple of lads off the ferry in a van thought they could pick up anything that wasn't nailed down from open garden sheds. They didn't make it back to the ferry.
In Leicester I know guys who can shoplift enough to feed a six hundred a day habit.
Aye, it's a different world.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Yay to open churches. I can see the points of the stewardship people, but I have never been one of those. There were times when I used to boo those who wanted to preserve the good things God had given, because I always wanted to give it away.
Congrats to all who open their churches despite the risks! Who knows, maybe someone like me might rock up one day.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I remember Pyx_e, who used to post here regularly, saying that he made it known in his parish that he would always be there, in church, on a Wednesday, for people who wanted to come in for any reason. Because people knew there was a set time and no particular agenda, they found this a very approachable way of coming into church.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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