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Source: (consider it) Thread: Fly the Friendly Skies?
Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I expect the airline has to use less fuel if it runs with all its seats filled, which costs it less money.

I can't see how a heavier plane would use less fuel than a lighter one. If you hold all other variables equal (route of plane, route, etc.), the only variable affecting fuel use would be weight. The less the weight, the less fuel used.
Take the number of passengers that turn up and take their seats. Then suppose the airline can fit them all on nine flights or else the airline can fit them onto ten flights at 90% capacity. I would suppose that the nine full flights will use less fuel than the ten flights at 90% since the weight of the airplane is non-negligible.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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mousethief

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Am interesting example but I thought we were referring to running a plane at 100% capacity versus a couple of empty seats. You appear to have changed the subject.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Alan Cresswell

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A plane with less passengers will use marginally less fuel than one that is full. But, the difference will be marginal. The majority of the fuel use is in lifting the aircraft itself (including the fuel for the rest of the flight and reserve). The fuel used per passenger will decrease with more passengers, even though the total amount of fuel used increases.

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Wesley J

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A slight change to United's booking policy has been announced.

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Am interesting example but I thought we were referring to running a plane at 100% capacity versus a couple of empty seats. You appear to have changed the subject.

I was talking about how the policy works over a period of time based on the law of averages. It's not the cost per flight that matters to the overall running costs or profitability (or environmental burden) of the airline: it's the cost over a period. I apologise if that wasn't clear. The policy overall works because the few occasions where they have to pay out to induce a passenger to take a later plane are compensated for by the savings on the majority of occasions.
That is, it works until some smart-alec manager with no real grasp of statistics thinks he can cut costs and improve profits by raising the number of overbookings and capping the compensation paid out.

[ 15. April 2017, 15:47: Message edited by: Dafyd ]

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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mousethief

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Well, United is no longer alone in attacking passengers. An American Airlines flight attendant allegedly hit a mom holding two children, and challenged a man who came to her defense to hit him. There is seriously something wrong in the state of Denmark that is the American airline industry.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Moo

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At least American had the smarts to apologize immediately, upgrade the woman to first class for her entire overseas trip, and suspend the flight attendant.

What happened was bad, but American did a much better job of damage control.

Moo

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Penny S
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Discussion on the radio yesterday included that some airlines ban the use of videoing of passengers or staff without their permission being granted in advance. Which sounds fine under normal circumstances, but...
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
At least American had the smarts to apologize immediately, upgrade the woman to first class for her entire overseas trip, and suspend the flight attendant.

What happened was bad, but American did a much better job of damage control.

They learned from the United incident. One wonders if they would have done so well three weeks ago. Our experience with American has been uniformly bleak.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Lyda*Rose

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Discussion on the radio yesterday included that some airlines ban the use of videoing of passengers or staff without their permission being granted in advance. Which sounds fine under normal circumstances, but...

Exactly.I'd like to see attendants try to shutdown passenger phone videos being taken during a crisis. Too many phones, not enough attendants who aren't involved in the drama. Plus them trying to shut down recording during a brouhaha would become part of the story. That dog don't hunt.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Discussion on the radio yesterday included that some airlines ban the use of videoing of passengers or staff without their permission being granted in advance. Which sounds fine under normal circumstances, but...

This is interesting. These are private companies offering services to the public whilst moving between different law systems. Add the practical difficulties of enforcing the filming and distribution; how efficacious the prohibition?
ETA: Partial X-post

[ 23. April 2017, 15:18: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Our experience with American has been uniformly bleak.

Ditto. I've vowed never to fly them again. I took Southwest to San Diego this weekend.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Our experience with American has been uniformly bleak.

Ditto.
Me too. I've had reasonable experiences with United, but every time I've flown American, the flight attendants have been unpleasant and aggressive. So I avoid them.

(Re cellphones: People should be granted privacy whilst travelling. Photographing strangers on a plane is the act of an arsehole (even if they're famous). Just don't do it.

Videoing this kind of thing is a different kettle of fish entirely.)

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Re cellphones: People should be granted privacy whilst travelling. Photographing strangers on a plane is the act of an arsehole (even if they're famous). Just don't do it.

I was on an international flight that had a large number of teenagers going on a "mission" trip. Early in the morning, as people were just beginning to wake up, some little brat thought it hysterically funny to come down the aisle of the plane taking flash photos of all the passengers.

(Teens going on "mission" trips may be a subject for a Hell thread some time.)

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
[Teens going on "mission" trips may be a subject for a Hell thread some time.

Do your inverted commas suggest (ahem!) some kind of scepticism about such trips? [Devil]
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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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Heheheheh. I just pulled my teen OFF going on one of those thingies.

And what's with this crap expression "being on mission" now? "On a mission" I can understand, and "in mission" if a general expression is wanted; but "on mission" reminds me of "on fleek" or "on my period"...

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Golden Key
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LC--

I'm guessing that "on mission" means you have a plan, and you're actively sticking with it.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
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Surely it's no different grammatically from a reporter being "on assignment."

I've heard lawyers say they are "on trial" when representing someone in court, although you would think it would be the defendant, not the lawyer, who would be that technically.

And what about being "on vacation" or "on holiday"?

"On mission" may grate but grammatically speaking it's not wrong.

Meanwhile, to get back on thread . . . I've just returned from San Diego via Southwest Airlines and found the experience, well, not exactly delightful, but almost so, to tell the truth. However, Terminal 1 at San Diego International Airport was created by the devil for the amusement of him and his minions.

[ 25. April 2017, 12:39: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Re cellphones: People should be granted privacy whilst travelling. Photographing strangers on a plane is the act of an arsehole (even if they're famous). Just don't do it.

I was on an international flight that had a large number of teenagers going on a "mission" trip. Early in the morning, as people were just beginning to wake up, some little brat thought it hysterically funny to come down the aisle of the plane taking flash photos of all the passengers.

(Teens going on "mission" trips may be a subject for a Hell thread some time.)

Arseholes for Jesus. Lovely.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
[Teens going on "mission" trips may be a subject for a Hell thread some time.

Do your inverted commas suggest (ahem!) some kind of scepticism about such trips? [Devil]
I think they often serve as a sanctified (and therefore more socially acceptable) gap year option.
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Brenda Clough
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And an 'approved' opportunity to get away from parental supervision.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
...Arseholes for Jesus. Lovely.

No one said the mission had anything to do with Christianity. That may have been the case, but you made a rather large assumption there.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Surely it's no different grammatically from a reporter being "on assignment."

I've heard lawyers say they are "on trial" when representing someone in court, although you would think it would be the defendant, not the lawyer, who would be that technically.

And what about being "on vacation" or "on holiday"?

"On mission" may grate but grammatically speaking it's not wrong.
.

It grates because I'm only ever hearing it on (horrible) Christian radio in the context of families or radio stations being "on mission" together, which we're supposed to cheer as a Good Thing. the "mission" is normally unspecified and indeed probably nonexistent (say I, with my cold shrunken heart) but hey, it makes us feel all so ethical and intentional .... grrrrrrrr.

I'm glad I'm not meeting these people in real life. If so, I'd doubtless hand them a broom and a pooperscooper and suggest they come down to the inner city and get busy with real mission.

ETA: And they can get off my lawn, too.

[ 25. April 2017, 14:14: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
think they often serve as a sanctified (and therefore more socially acceptable) gap year option.

These were younger teens going away for a week or so to harrass, I mean “minister to” the locals. Without knowing the language, culture, or religion of the people they were going to “save.” Their adult leaders were equally ignorant.

quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
...Arseholes for Jesus. Lovely.

No one said the mission had anything to do with Christianity. That may have been the case, but you made a rather large assumption there.
Yes, this was a “Christian” mission. mousethief had it right.

They also took great pride in the fact that they convinced the flight crew to change the originally-scheduled "PG" rated movie and replaced it with one that was "G."

I wish they'd been going to a less-civilized country --- maybe the natives would have eaten them

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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Pffft. Sometimes I wish they'd up the age (to 60, maybe?) so nobody could go on these things who hadn't learned the basics of how not to be a pain in the arse yet. Childish.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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Sorry to continue the tangent, but I also have objections with the 60+ crowd.

A former friend of mine (70+) went to "Africa" (it took me a while to get her to specify which country) to help build a well. She was raising funds from friends and family to pay air transportation, etc. -- it was very expensive. She was hurt that I wouldn't support her, when she would be doing something so worthwhile. The money raised would have gone a lot further, and done a lot more good for the "Africans" had they used it to help the local people build the well and learn a trade. More wells could have been built and more people helped. And yes, this was a church "mission trip."

This same person is a Registered Nurse and has gone on church trips to Mexico and Central America to help in medical clinics. I think that's wonderful, since she's using her skills and training to help those with no other access to medical care. But raising thousands of dollars to send a 70+ woman with no construction experience to build a well did not strike me as a worthy cause.

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
...Arseholes for Jesus. Lovely.

No one said the mission had anything to do with Christianity. That may have been the case, but you made a rather large assumption there.
An assumption, but not a large one.
  • This is a mostly Christian website
  • Christian and Christianish religions are famous for doing missions, not so much in the other major religions
  • Pigwidgeon is American. They are nearly 3/4 Christian(ish)


--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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Sorry I wasn't clearer in my first post about these little darlings.

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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I agree with you in general about mission trips. The only real use I see for them is the effect they (may) have on the travelers and on their congregations back home--IIRC, quite a few career missionaries got interested to start with on a mission trip. Which is why we (my congregation was on the receiving end of some of these trips) would basically sigh and put up with them, for the sake of our Christian brothers and sistes who needed to come, though we didn't need them to come. (and boy, wouldn't those sentiments utterly hack off the leadership of the sending congregations!) [Killing me]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
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Enoch
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# 14322

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Surely it's no different grammatically from a reporter being "on assignment."

I've heard lawyers say they are "on trial" when representing someone in court, although you would think it would be the defendant, not the lawyer, who would be that technically.

And what about being "on vacation" or "on holiday"?

"On mission" may grate but grammatically speaking it's not wrong. ...

Tangent alert

Interesting. Usage here allows "on vacation" and "on holiday", but does not allow "on mission" and probably not "on assignment". Both require an indefinite article "on a mission" and "on an assignment". So I think, grammatically "on mission" is grammatically wrong here.

I don't know why, except to say that in the two examples where one doesn't have to have the article, there is a slight difference in meaning between "on holiday" - a state - and "on a holiday" where there's something a bit more specific but not much about the holiday.

"On trial" also, is definitely something that only happens to the accused here. The lawyer is "in court". A person in a civil matter is not "on trial", though the issue, just about, could be.

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Pangolin Guerre
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Lamb Chopped:

Or unintended effects on the missionary... A few nights ago I was listening to a radio documentary in which a fellow was describing his experience in Amazonia, where he had gone to translate the Bible into one of the indigenous languages. The language (can't recall which one) has a complex system of obligatory evidentiary suffixes, so translating statements of faith into the target language is impossible, as the grammar doesn't admit of that. Have you seen Jesus? Did your father see Jesus? Etc. are grammatically required bits of information. Consequence? Missionary is now an atheist.

Ha!

[ 25. April 2017, 22:20: Message edited by: Pangolin Guerre ]

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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continuing the tangent...

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I agree with you in general about mission trips. The only real use I see for them is the effect they (may) have on the travelers and on their congregations back home--IIRC, quite a few career missionaries got interested to start with on a mission trip. Which is why we (my congregation was on the receiving end of some of these trips) would basically sigh and put up with them, for the sake of our Christian brothers and sistes who needed to come, though we didn't need them to come. (and boy, wouldn't those sentiments utterly hack off the leadership of the sending congregations!) [Killing me]

I also agree re the inherent dangers, but see more potential benefits to well-designed short term mission trips.

There is a benefit to the goer-- to the person (youth or 60 year old) who gets out of their comfort zone and sees life in another culture, worships in another culture. That's nothing to be sneered at-- it's just not charity. So you need to see it as that-- something that is benefitting YOU, not you being the Gracious Gift to the Poor Undeserving Masses. Be appreciative, respectful, and humble-- expect to learn.

And having that experience will help to spread the word of what life is like elsewhere-- hopefully the beautiful as well as the broken. You can share needs, advocate for justice, speak with some first-hand experience, even if it's limited. Those are benefits-- if used judiciously. That can lead to increased funding, advocacy, etc.

You can uplift and encourage long-term career cross-cultural workers-- if you're really listening to what they need rather than making them cart you around on make-work jaunts and tourist expeditions.

But for these benefits to accrue the trip needs to be well-designed, with humility, and understood again as part of our spiritual formation ministry rather than our mission outreach-- for our benefit. In general, it's best to partner with local agencies-- especially local churches (including those not of your own denomination) and ask them how you can partner/support what they are already doing rather than being a pain in the neck making them do more work.

[ 25. April 2017, 23:25: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
Lamb Chopped:

Or unintended effects on the missionary... A few nights ago I was listening to a radio documentary in which a fellow was describing his experience in Amazonia, where he had gone to translate the Bible into one of the indigenous languages. The language (can't recall which one) has a complex system of obligatory evidentiary suffixes, so translating statements of faith into the target language is impossible, as the grammar doesn't admit of that. Have you seen Jesus? Did your father see Jesus? Etc. are grammatically required bits of information. Consequence? Missionary is now an atheist.

Ha!

You know, I'd like to see that grammar system laid out in detail. Not because I doubt its difficulty, but I find it impossible to imagine an entire group of human beings who made no forays into faith of any sort (which seems to be one of the human basics, culturally speaking). It's bloody hard to figure out a language from the outside--I think of the many many people who insist Vietnamese has no pronouns (though it does, oodles of them, they just don't behave in the standard European ways). There was also a fairly influential anthropology text written as an emic experience of pygmy culture. The writer came out convinced that the pygmy group he lived with worshipped the forest as a god, though every quote he gave proved rather the opposite--that they had some sort of god distinct from the forest.

It is so very, very hard.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19956 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
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Yo, Cliffdweller--You preach, girl! [Overused]

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19956 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged



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