homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » UK General Election June 8th 2017 (Page 11)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  ...  32  33  34 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: UK General Election June 8th 2017
Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541

 - Posted      Profile for Rocinante   Email Rocinante   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think that the big picture of British politics at the moment is that the Right is all lined up behind Theresa May, while the Left is fighting like a sack of ferrets: Labour left, Labour moderates, Lib Dem, SNP, Plaid, all united in fraternal detestation of each others' guts. Just heard Caroline Lucas opining that the progressive parties must find a way to work together.

Yeah, right. Wishes, horses, beggars.

Posts: 353 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Yeah, that's the spirit! This kind of reasoning will elect Le Pen

We don'y have a Le Pen here. Neither do we have a Macron, who is a centre left politician of the type Labour should be putting up.
If you think Macron is any form of left you must be so far to the right you can't be seen with a telescope.
Posts: 2836 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320

 - Posted      Profile for PaulTH*   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by arethosemyfeet:
If you think Macron is any form of left you must be so far to the right you can't be seen with a telescope.

So why is he the political child of failed President Hollande?

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul

Posts: 6383 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think Macron will continue the hollowing out of French society, which globalization is causing. The neo-liberals tend to enrage both the working class and the middle class, as jobs disappear, social services decline, and the rich stuff their gains into off-shore accounts. Not that I have a solution to this - does anyone?

--------------------
the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

Posts: 9654 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican't   Email Anglican't   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It isn't a "card", it's the truth. Black woman makes a mistake and everyone piles on.

I'm not convinced. From years of watching the BBC "This Week", on which she was a regular commentator, I've long held the view that Abbott is - shall we say? - not the most able of politicians, and that the media wish to bring that out. Is it sexist or racist? I don't think so. Is it personal? Yes, it probably is.
And Diane Abbott's done another interview:

Interviewer (ITN): Do you know the number of net losses so far for Labour?

Diane Abbott: At the time of us doing this interview I think the net losses are about 50.

Interviewer: There are actually 125 net losses so far.

Diane Abbott: Well the last time I looked we had net losses of 100 but obviously this is a moving picture.

Posts: 3586 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by arethosemyfeet:
If you think Macron is any form of left you must be so far to the right you can't be seen with a telescope.

So why is he the political child of failed President Hollande?
That's a "when did you stop beating your wife" question if ever I saw one.
Posts: 2836 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Yes but

There is no yes but. You're either a thieving Tory, a deluded part of the 75% who will benefit nothing at all from a Tory government or some other kind of lame-arsed idiot who is into voting against his own interests.

Which is it?

The adage that the right looks for converts the left looks for traitors is hardly a truth universally acknowledged but in this particular instance it seems bang on.

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9692 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380

 - Posted      Profile for Alwyn     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
And Diane Abbott's done another interview:

Yeah, the left (my preferred side, in politics) face a massive defeat in this election and Diane Abbott isn't helping.

Having seen a police station and a GP surgery close in my area, I do not have any hope now for the hospitals which are threatened with closure, or the local library (also threatened with closure), or the services which are threatened by massive cuts to the local council's funding.

I think it will get even worse for people on the left after the election. Labour's right will blame the left, comparing Corbyn's defeat to Blair's victories. Labour's left will blame the right for attacking Corbyn so that he had to spend his time as leader defending himself against them, not attacking the bad choices of the Conservative Government.

[tongue in cheek] Sometimes I wish life in the 21st century was as positive and optimistic as Blade Runner made it appear. Sure, we're governed by rich individuals and unaccountable mega-corporations, but at least in Blade Runner there were off-world colonies which you could leave for, the only downside being a small risk of being killed by rampaging replicants. [/tongue in cheek]

[ 07. May 2017, 07:14: Message edited by: Alwyn ]

--------------------
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
The TWC Writers' Study

Posts: 848 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, our surgery, police station, post office, library, have closed, and this is in London. I am just hoping that May does not butcher the welfare state any more. Hopefully, she retains enough one-nation Tory mindset, against the headbangers. Damn, it's the hope that is awful.

--------------------
the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

Posts: 9654 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Given the number of people who have just voted for Tory councillors/mayors, it's not credible that a substantial number of them also complain about lack of bin collection, pot holes in the road, and umpteen other local services below par. Which makes you wonder why they vote for local politicians who are likely to continue cutting those services. And, come June are also likely to vote for MPs who will do the same to nationally funded services. Turkeys, here's Christmas. Vote now!

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 32107 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Politics isn't rational like that. It's often based on hope, wish-fulfilment, fantasy, image.

--------------------
the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

Posts: 9654 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Politics isn't rational like that. It's often based on hope, wish-fulfilment, fantasy, image.

What about my hope that a significant portion of he electorate will become rational?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16924 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Politics isn't rational like that. It's often based on hope, wish-fulfilment, fantasy, image.

What about my hope that a significant portion of he electorate will become rational?
That's just barmy.

--------------------
the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

Posts: 9654 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Politics isn't rational like that. It's often based on hope, wish-fulfilment, fantasy, image.

What about my hope that a significant portion of he electorate will become rational?
That's just barmy.
qv 23rd June 2016.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24000 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This David Schneider tweet says it all - let's just slam Diane Abbott and ignore all the other issues.

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13538 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Given the number of people who have just voted for Tory councillors/mayors, it's not credible that a substantial number of them also complain about lack of bin collection, pot holes in the road, and umpteen other local services below par. Which makes you wonder why they vote for local politicians who are likely to continue cutting those services. And, come June are also likely to vote for MPs who will do the same to nationally funded services. Turkeys, here's Christmas. Vote now!

Presumably, people who vote Tory at a local level favour lower levels of Council Tax which doesn't preclude them whinging about the poorer services which follow from that. That said, I once moved from a Council with a left wing authority, with strong views on the environment, where the recycling services were rubbish to a safe Tory seat where they were pretty good. It didn't induce me to vote Tory but I could see why my neighbours did.

Actually, the thing that has always struck me as being in some way significant is the way that councillors get the old heave-ho when their party is doing poorly in the polls. I get that, say, Mr Major was unpopular after the ERM debacle and that people don't like Mr Corbyn. But I don't see how it follows that I should ditch Councillor Bloggs who sorted out the grit boxes or Councillor Jones who got that grant for the Library just because his party leader in Westminster is a bit of a prat. (or for that matter we should re-elect Councillor Graft just because his party leader is registering Blair97 or May17 levels of popularity).

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9692 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Presumably, people who vote Tory at a local level favour lower levels of Council Tax which doesn't preclude them whinging about the poorer services which follow from that.

So the problem with this kind of statement is that it treats "services" as a monolithic block. You either want lots of "services" in which case you want high taxes to pay for them, or you want a lower level of "service" and lower taxes.

I don't think anybody thinks like that. A lot of the traditionally Tory voters that I know are very keen on regular rubbish collections and road repairs, but not keen on anybody who has a job title that includes words like "outreach coordinator" or "facilitator". It's not that they want lower services across the board - it's that there are some things they want, and other things they don't want at all.

Posts: 4831 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Given the number of people who have just voted for Tory councillors/mayors, it's not credible that a substantial number of them also complain about lack of bin collection, pot holes in the road, and umpteen other local services below par. Which makes you wonder why they vote for local politicians who are likely to continue cutting those services. And, come June are also likely to vote for MPs who will do the same to nationally funded services. Turkeys, here's Christmas. Vote now!

Well, we've had cuts to all those things in Liverpool, which is not far from being a Labour one-party state at the moment. And that's not because Labour are rubbish, but because Liverpool lost something like 50% of its central government funding.

It makes you wonder why people bother with local elections. Oh wait, they don't.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7159 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411

 - Posted      Profile for Jay-Emm     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Given the number of people who have just voted for Tory councillors/mayors, it's not credible that a substantial number of them also complain about lack of bin collection, pot holes in the road, and umpteen other local services below par. Which makes you wonder why they vote for local politicians who are likely to continue cutting those services. And, come June are also likely to vote for MPs who will do the same to nationally funded services. Turkeys, here's Christmas. Vote now!

I think some of it is hoping that they'll be 'rewarded for their loyalty' by central government. A kind of Quisling, or prisoners dilemma approach.
I just read the announcement for the Cambridge candidate, and he's explicitly going on the having the 'ear of central government'.

[ 07. May 2017, 19:03: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]

Posts: 1612 | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

I don't think anybody thinks like that. A lot of the traditionally Tory voters that I know are very keen on regular rubbish collections and road repairs, but not keen on anybody who has a job title that includes words like "outreach coordinator" or "facilitator". It's not that they want lower services across the board - it's that there are some things they want, and other things they don't want at all.

And like good little tories they fear and hate anything they don't understand.
Posts: 2836 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

I don't think anybody thinks like that. A lot of the traditionally Tory voters that I know are very keen on regular rubbish collections and road repairs, but not keen on anybody who has a job title that includes words like "outreach coordinator" or "facilitator". It's not that they want lower services across the board - it's that there are some things they want, and other things they don't want at all.

And like good little tories they fear and hate anything they don't understand.
Most everyone hates and fears what they do not understand, Tories do not have a monopoly on that.
The key factor is simplicity. The Conservative messages are simpler to present than the liberal ones. They are not simpler in practice, but blame the foreigners requires no nuance. Lower taxes help everyone is farcical, but plain.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16924 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

A lot of the traditionally Tory voters that I know are very keen on regular rubbish collections and road repairs, but not keen on anybody who has a job title that includes words like "outreach coordinator" or "facilitator".

IME a lot of these type of people are prone to underestimating the complexity of delivering services, and overestimating the cost of services that they don't personally benefit from.
Posts: 3827 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

I don't think anybody thinks like that. A lot of the traditionally Tory voters that I know are very keen on regular rubbish collections and road repairs, but not keen on anybody who has a job title that includes words like "outreach coordinator" or "facilitator". It's not that they want lower services across the board - it's that there are some things they want, and other things they don't want at all.

And like good little tories they fear and hate anything they don't understand.
I've spent the better part of a decade in safe Tory seats. When the left realise that Tory voters aren't wicked, stupid or both they may start winning again.

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9692 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I've spent the better part of a decade in safe Tory seats. When the left realise that Tory voters aren't wicked, stupid or both they may start winning again.

I've lived in tory seats on a number of occasions and the evidence I've seen suggests they're just that, or more precisely that they believe wicked and/or stupid things. And most Labour-tory swing voters are utter morons. If we start pandering to their ignorant opinions then some of them will vote Labour rather than tory, but at the cost of having to pander to their ignorant opinions on e.g. immigration. I'm sick of pretending all opinions are equal. They're not.
Posts: 2836 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
And like good little tories they fear and hate anything they don't understand.

"Fear", "hate", and "don't want to purchase" are not synonyms.

Not understanding is certainly a big thing - you often find people who see no value in X, until they meet the people who use whatever X is, and discover that X is really quite cheap, but vitally important to those people.

Posts: 4831 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican't   Email Anglican't   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I've spent the better part of a decade in safe Tory seats. When the left realise that Tory voters aren't wicked, stupid or both they may start winning again.

I've lived in tory seats on a number of occasions and the evidence I've seen suggests they're just that, or more precisely that they believe wicked and/or stupid things. And most Labour-tory swing voters are utter morons. If we start pandering to their ignorant opinions then some of them will vote Labour rather than tory, but at the cost of having to pander to their ignorant opinions on e.g. immigration. I'm sick of pretending all opinions are equal. They're not.
And that's why you lose...
Posts: 3586 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025

 - Posted      Profile for Helen-Eva   Email Helen-Eva   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I've spent the better part of a decade in safe Tory seats. When the left realise that Tory voters aren't wicked, stupid or both they may start winning again.

I've lived in tory seats on a number of occasions and the evidence I've seen suggests they're just that, or more precisely that they believe wicked and/or stupid things. And most Labour-tory swing voters are utter morons. If we start pandering to their ignorant opinions then some of them will vote Labour rather than tory, but at the cost of having to pander to their ignorant opinions on e.g. immigration. I'm sick of pretending all opinions are equal. They're not.
And that's why you lose...
Quite. It's kind of difficult to win elections if one doesn't pander to the electorate at least a bit.

--------------------
I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.

Posts: 621 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
And that's why you lose...

More particularly it's why I'm not a politician.
Posts: 2836 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican't   Email Anglican't   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I've spent the better part of a decade in safe Tory seats. When the left realise that Tory voters aren't wicked, stupid or both they may start winning again.

I've lived in tory seats on a number of occasions and the evidence I've seen suggests they're just that, or more precisely that they believe wicked and/or stupid things. And most Labour-tory swing voters are utter morons. If we start pandering to their ignorant opinions then some of them will vote Labour rather than tory, but at the cost of having to pander to their ignorant opinions on e.g. immigration. I'm sick of pretending all opinions are equal. They're not.
And that's why you lose...
Quite. It's kind of difficult to win elections if one doesn't pander to the electorate at least a bit.
Or calling them wicked, stupid and moronic. I think that's a bit of a turn off.
Posts: 3586 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Or calling them wicked, stupid and moronic. I think that's a bit of a turn off.

Thing is, the tories clearly know their target audience is prone to stupidity, otherwise they wouldn't be trying to push this sort of absurd nonsense:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/07/tories-intensify-attacks-brussels-saying-supports-labour

Posts: 2836 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican't   Email Anglican't   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Or calling them wicked, stupid and moronic. I think that's a bit of a turn off.

Thing is, the tories clearly know their target audience is prone to stupidity, otherwise they wouldn't be trying to push this sort of absurd nonsense:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/07/tories-intensify-attacks-brussels-saying-supports-labour

If it is, as you say, 'absurd nonsense', why do you think details of the meeting (which portrayed Mrs May negatively) were leaked by the Commission?
Posts: 3586 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Or calling them wicked, stupid and moronic. I think that's a bit of a turn off.

On one hand, yes. You're absolutely right. The Left need to up their game and tell a better story - seek converts.

One the other, it's extraordinarily difficult to reason with people out of a position like the the Banker's Biscuit without first telling them they've fallen for a scam. No one likes being told they're stupid (or racist).

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8832 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
If it is, as you say, 'absurd nonsense', why do you think details of the meeting (which portrayed Mrs May negatively) were leaked by the Commission?

Because the meeting occurred in the time frame within which it was leaked and they have an interest in keeping their own electorate abreast of developments that are likely to affect their domestic economy. Things aren't always primarily about the UK.

Besides, in terms of Theresa May being portrayed negatively; she had control over the timing of the meeting, she also had control over her conduct in her meeting, and crucially none of the things reported as said in that meeting differed substantially from the public positions taken by May, Davis et al. nor the tone they have taken.

[The BBC interviewed Le Pen twice, and didn't interview Macron at all - was that also an attempt to influence the French election? They'd presumably argue that they were trying to inform the British public].

Posts: 3827 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

The key factor is simplicity. The Conservative messages are simpler to present than the liberal ones.

Monetarism is simple and intuitive?

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7159 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Or calling them wicked, stupid and moronic. I think that's a bit of a turn off.

On one hand, yes. You're absolutely right. The Left need to up their game and tell a better story - seek converts.

One the other, it's extraordinarily difficult to reason with people out of a position like the the Banker's Biscuit without first telling them they've fallen for a scam. No one likes being told they're stupid (or racist).

Although ISTM the sort of people who don't like immigrants don't like bankers much either.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7159 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Although ISTM the sort of people who don't like immigrants don't like bankers much either.

And yet they absolutely adore stock brokers so long as they share their views.
Posts: 2836 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

 - Posted      Profile for Doc Tor     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Although ISTM the sort of people who don't like immigrants don't like bankers much either.

Which is exactly the point. Classic misdirection: "Hate them, not us - they're the problem."

--------------------
Forward the New Republic

Posts: 8832 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

The key factor is simplicity. The Conservative messages are simpler to present than the liberal ones.

Monetarism is simple and intuitive?
It was passed-off as being similar to household economics, eg balancing your income and expenditure. It was something else the centre & left failed to oppose and defeat, because it is stuffed full of falsehoods.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24000 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The analogy between national and household budgets isn't even applied consistently. The whole point of austerity is to reduce national debt (which it's failing to do), but households are encouraged to borrow to get what they want. Or, at least borrow to invest in the household - improve the insulation, replace the boiler or windows to cut heating costs; get a car so that the "breadwinner" can find a better job outwith the immediate area; etc. I'm not seeing any sign of our government investing to reduce ongoing costs (with long term savings) or helping people into work or better paid jobs (and hence boost tax incomes, and general economic performance).

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 32107 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The analogy between national and household budgets isn't even applied consistently. The whole point of austerity is to reduce national debt

Yes, and the history of austerity is that it has never done this anyway (at least not in isolation - there are a few cases of tiny economies which have implemented austerity but then recovered because of expansive spending by their major trading partner).
Posts: 3827 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Monetarism is not austerity. Monetarism is the idea that you can manage the economy by mucking about with the money supply. Hence quantitative easing.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7159 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I've spent the better part of a decade in safe Tory seats. When the left realise that Tory voters aren't wicked, stupid or both they may start winning again.

I've lived in tory seats on a number of occasions and the evidence I've seen suggests they're just that, or more precisely that they believe wicked and/or stupid things. And most Labour-tory swing voters are utter morons. If we start pandering to their ignorant opinions then some of them will vote Labour rather than tory, but at the cost of having to pander to their ignorant opinions on e.g. immigration. I'm sick of pretending all opinions are equal. They're not.
Brecht got there first:

quote:
After the uprising of the 17th of June
The Secretary of the Writers' Union
Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee
Stating that the people
Had forfeited the confidence of the government
And could win it back only
By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier
In that case for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?



--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9692 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

The key factor is simplicity. The Conservative messages are simpler to present than the liberal ones.

Monetarism is simple and intuitive?
It was passed-off as being similar to household economics, eg balancing your income and expenditure. It was something else the centre & left failed to oppose and defeat, because it is stuffed full of falsehoods.
And it is a simple concept. To illustrate why it is false, one must use reality, which is much more complex. And doesn't provide a simple solution.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16924 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Again: austerity is indeed simple, but it is not monetarism.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7159 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Again: austerity is indeed simple, but it is not monetarism.

I think - though an actual economist is free to correct me - that in monetarist terms the governments strategy of "on the one hand QE and on the other hand austerity" was fairly incoherent as it amounted to taking money out of the economy by cutting public spending and then printing money to replace it.

For most people monetarism is a boo-word because it was the basis of the governments economic policy in the early '80s which got a grip on inflation at the cost of eye-watering levels of unemployment. But when the government joined the ERM at the end of the decade the main critics of the policy were monetarists who pointed out that keeping interest rates high in the middle of a recession was folly. So a consistent monetarist would have been opposed to the later Tory recession but in favour of the former!

Which does, kinda sorta, make lilBuddha's point as this sort of thing hardly fits snugly onto the side of a bus.

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9692 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Monetarism is not austerity. Monetarism is the idea that you can manage the economy by mucking about with the money supply. Hence quantitative easing.

I don't think that the Tory economic policies are monetarist. When was the last time the government instructed the Bank of England to release more cash into the economy (or, indeed, drag more cash out of the economy)?

Actually, although they'll use impressive sounding words to create an impression that their policies follow a defined economic theory, the reality is different. The Tory Party economic policy is basically a mix of make-it-up-as-we-go-ism with what-we-can-con-punters-to-vote-for-ism. With the sad truth being that a large number of punters have swallowed the whole mirage hook, line and sinker and actually believe that a) the Tories are the only party with economic competance and b) that the solid economic theories underpinning other parties policy is bunkum.

The Tories know how to play the game of politics.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 32107 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My wife reckons that austerity is loved by many English people, as it pleases their fierce Protestant conscience, which demands punishment for unknown crimes. I couldn't possibly comment.

--------------------
the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

Posts: 9654 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Preferably, of course, punishment of someone down the road, who is poor and/or disabled and/or ill and/or old. Why should they swan about watching Sky, drinking, and smoking their lungs to death?

--------------------
the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

Posts: 9654 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Preferably, of course, punishment of someone down the road, who is poor and/or disabled and/or ill and/or old. Why should they swan about watching Sky, drinking, and smoking their lungs to death?

Yep, construction of the 2017 version of the welfare queen.
Posts: 3827 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Preferably, of course, punishment of someone down the road, who is poor and/or disabled and/or ill and/or old. Why should they swan about watching Sky, drinking, and smoking their lungs to death?

Yep, construction of the 2017 version of the welfare queen.
I suppose (optimistically speaking), that this goes in cycles. We have punish the poor for about 15-20 years, then the pendulum swings back to some sort of compassion, OK for a bit, then hit the bastards again. The thing is, the rich need all the money.

--------------------
the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

Posts: 9654 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  ...  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  ...  32  33  34 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools