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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I just popped in to ask, after this morning's fiasco - unheard-of u-turning on a general election manifesto policy - does anyone else think the Tories are actually trying to lose?

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I just popped in to ask, after this morning's fiasco - unheard-of u-turning on a general election manifesto policy - does anyone else think the Tories are actually trying to lose?

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm less sure about student fees - it certainly sounds like a vote-winner from Labour, although I've had conversations with serious academics who say that the Scottish "free education" model is less progressive than the English fee-based regime for the poorest students.

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
Universal benefits may look superficially less redistributive than means-tested benefits, but I think they're more progressive overall. There are several advantages to universal benefits. They give everyone a stake in the benefit. They mean that the benefit isn't stigmatised as a sign of relative failure. You don't have any invidious lines on which someone on the wrong side of the line loses out. There's much less money and time spent administering who qualifies and ensuring nobody gets what they're not entitled to.

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The NHS is not means-tested. I think it's more progressive than any means-tested health-care service.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

I think it is a bit different to a health system in this respect: in a properly working economy, those who have higher qualifications should be earning more than those who don't. And so, it can be argued, a tax system that pays for university education is charging poor workers who never get a chance to go to university to put the privileged into jobs that they'd never have a chance to access.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

Bloody hell, is this how they're going to handle Brexit negotiations? Help. We're in trouble.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm hearing people actually talking about the possibility of Labour winning. I doubt it, but still, it's interesting to watch the Tory clusterfuck and ensuing panic.

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Originally posted by chris stiles:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

Bloody hell, is this how they're going to handle Brexit negotiations? Help. We're in trouble.

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I suspect that they'll manufacture an excuse to walk away - they are already trialling this line in the media.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm hearing people actually talking about the possibility of Labour winning. I doubt it, but still, it's interesting to watch the Tory clusterfuck and ensuing panic.

Bloody hell, is this how they're going to handle Brexit negotiations? Help. We're in trouble.

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Originally posted by Callan:
However, the opposition, the EU negotiating team and members of her own party will have noted that she makes policy on the fly and gets rattled easily

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Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
I'm mystified by the whole thing about trust tonight. Apparently, May wants to fight the election on the basis of who do you trust!? When one party leader is virtually the textbook definition of consistent in his views, and she flip-flops virtually constantly, and hopes no-one notices. Corbyn may be weak (in TV bully pulpit persona, certainly) but he's not untrustworthy when it comes to his word. Wholly consistent. She isn't. I won't be voting for either of their parties (Tory safe seat, Lib Dems in 2nd but a LONG way behind) but it's an odd way to fight an election, on something you're not known for.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think the Tories will still win, though. I'm curious to see how right wing Labour deal with this - do they want Labour to lose?

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Originally posted by Sarah G:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think the Tories will still win, though. I'm curious to see how right wing Labour deal with this - do they want Labour to lose?

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I imagine the thought of Corbyn winning gives them the same fear knot in the stomach that we all got when we realised Trump might win.

Quite rightly.

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Originally posted by Sarah G:
I imagine the thought of Corbyn winning gives them the same fear knot in the stomach that we all got when we realised Trump might win.

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Originally posted by Sarah G:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think the Tories will still win, though. I'm curious to see how right wing Labour deal with this - do they want Labour to lose?

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I imagine the thought of Corbyn winning gives them the same fear knot in the stomach that we all got when we realised Trump might win.

Quite rightly.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Sarah G:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think the Tories will still win, though. I'm curious to see how right wing Labour deal with this - do they want Labour to lose?

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I imagine the thought of Corbyn winning gives them the same fear knot in the stomach that we all got when we realised Trump might win.

Quite rightly.

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Originally posted by chris stiles:
A couple of commentaries on her have noted her colleagues complaints that she tends to dither (and then stick to her guns despite evidence to the contrary). In that vein the past year could be seen as procrastination on the level that would make a student supposed to be revising proud.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I just popped in to ask, after this morning's fiasco - unheard-of u-turning on a general election manifesto policy - does anyone else think the Tories are actually trying to lose?

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There seems to be a trend i.e. in the DNA of political parties who all seem to indulge in 'U-TURNS' a.k.a. "predictive programming," so that after the election they can do another u-turn returning back to their original intensions (having previously 'alerted' their intensions that of going against popular will/well-being of the people). The Lib-Dems did it when in partnership with the Cons., Labour did the same, Cons. did it in the past and no doubt will be doing so again (on this occasion bringing the dementia tax despite the 'u-turn'). In our local area, it is a case of voting for a guy who has done things for the local area, who will be getting the (family) vote. Our local councillor is an independent (ex Labour) voted in for opposing a local 'u-turn', his colleague and himself both becoming our local councillors, one of whom is now standing at the National elections and supported by the other. Will be voting for the underdog.

[PS: At the national level politics affects all classes including underdogs, who seem to chase (their) tail (effecting several circular u-turns), much as the Ouraboros or serpent eating its tail...euphemism for 'Freemasonic' a.k.a. powerful esoteric influences programmed towards a new world order. Ted Heath knew well in advance that the proposed Economic Community was a euphemism for a political Union, as part of a future ten region governed United Nations. Margaret Thatcher opposed it vigourously. Not many have since. We're destined for a new world order, Brexit or no Brexit]

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I've been reflecting this morning how the Manchester attack is going to impact on the GE.

Without wanting to speculate or make assumptions about who or what has happened, it seems likely that the narrative of the GE campaign is going to change and that the Tories are going to gain votes.

Bollocks.

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It's a terrible open goal for the "Corbyn liked the IRA" mob isn't it. I really really hope Corbyn and May will be able to appear together in Manchester today. Major and Blair managed it after Dunblane (although I believe they fell out over it afterwards on petty matters). Then they can do something constructive for the country today, in the way they both claim they want to.



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I thought I should update my signature line....

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Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
It's a terrible open goal for the "Corbyn liked the IRA" mob isn't it.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

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Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
It's a terrible open goal for the "Corbyn liked the IRA" mob isn't it.

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Um. Is that a typo? Surely the opposite is true - it is a goal for those who think Corbyn is weak on terrorism.

I guess we'll see if anyone uses it in the GE campaign. I'd hope not, but suspect it will come up in the next few days.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

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Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
It's a terrible open goal for the "Corbyn liked the IRA" mob isn't it.

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Um. Is that a typo? Surely the opposite is true - it is a goal for those who think Corbyn is weak on terrorism.

I guess we'll see if anyone uses it in the GE campaign. I'd hope not, but suspect it will come up in the next few days.

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Originally posted by Callan:

quote:

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

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Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
It's a terrible open goal for the "Corbyn liked the IRA" mob isn't it.

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Um. Is that a typo? Surely the opposite is true - it is a goal for those who think Corbyn is weak on terrorism.

I guess we'll see if anyone uses it in the GE campaign. I'd hope not, but suspect it will come up in the next few days.

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Open goal in the sense of opportunity. Security is not, to put it politely, one of Mr Corbyn's strengths. After a decent interval I expect the Conservatives to draw attention to this fact.

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Added to which the "Corbyn is weak on security" usually relates almost entirely on whether or not he would order a nuclear strike, or whether he supports military action in Syria or Iraq. Which is totally irrelevant.

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Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Added to which the "Corbyn is weak on security" usually relates almost entirely on whether or not he would order a nuclear strike, or whether he supports military action in Syria or Iraq. Which is totally irrelevant.

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He's also come unstuck on a shoot-to-kill policy and has senior shadow cabinet members who have until recently (and perhaps still do, who knows?) backed the disarmament of the police and the abolition of MI5.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Added to which the "Corbyn is weak on security" usually relates almost entirely on whether or not he would order a nuclear strike, or whether he supports military action in Syria or Iraq. Which is totally irrelevant.

The relevant details are whether he would support the work of the police and security services in gathering intelligence on criminal activity within the UK, of which I have seen nothing to suggest that he would be any different from any other political leader. And, whether he would seek to address underlying issues that can lead to radicalisation or other criminal activity - and, he seems to be better placed to do that than Mrs May (he's already shown a willingness to talk to people who have grievances to try and understand where they are coming from).

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Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Added to which the "Corbyn is weak on security" usually relates almost entirely on whether or not he would order a nuclear strike, or whether he supports military action in Syria or Iraq. Which is totally irrelevant.

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He's also come unstuck on a shoot-to-kill policy

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Originally posted by Anglican't:
I thought (but am open to correction if I'm wrong) that he was photographed holding the letter?

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Originally posted by Callan:
Well, I was rather thinking of the interview where he opposed a "shoot to kill" policy with regard to terrorists.

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And, whilst it may be the case in some circles that an appropriate response to a homicidal maniac letting off a bomb at a pop concert full of teenaged girls is to stress talking to the persons concerned in order to try and understand where they are coming from, many of the electorate will be thinking in terms of nicking the fuckers and locking them up.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Anglican't:
I thought (but am open to correction if I'm wrong) that he was photographed holding the letter?

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Added to which the "Corbyn is weak on security" usually relates almost entirely on whether or not he would order a nuclear strike, or whether he supports military action in Syria or Iraq. Which is totally irrelevant.

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He's also come unstuck on a shoot-to-kill policy and has senior shadow cabinet members who have until recently (and perhaps still do, who knows?) backed the disarmament of the police and the abolition of MI5.

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Originally posted by Callan:

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Originally posted by Anglican't:
I thought (but am open to correction if I'm wrong) that he was photographed holding the letter?

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Google is your friend.

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's probably wrapped it up for the Tories. The links are going to be obvious, Corbyn, soft on terrorism, IRA, Hamas, Theresa May strong leader, you can practically write the headlines already.

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Originally posted by anne:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's probably wrapped it up for the Tories. The links are going to be obvious, Corbyn, soft on terrorism, IRA, Hamas, Theresa May strong leader, you can practically write the headlines already.

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I am sure you are right - but I don't quite understand the logic of this argument. Although it will be painted as "Terrorist's beardy friend" vs "(Strong and) Stable Mayble", the choice will in practise be "Untried and untested leader" vs "leader when this terrible thing was planned and carried out who presided over this terrible failure of intelligence and counter-terrorism."

Of course it is hideously unfair to apportion responsibility for this abomination to the Prime Minister - but I think that we are about to watch a narrative unfold where the leader of the opposition is seen as more responsible than the PM - or at least more likely to let something like this happen again.
How could this narrative from the right-leaning media be countered?

anne

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