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Source: (consider it) Thread: UK General Election June 8th 2017
quetzalcoatl
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Yeah, but the Tories are expert at U-turns, so you never quite know what you're getting, as it might change in the middle of a press conference. Strong and stable - yeah, my arse.

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quetzalcoatl
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What pisses me off, is that Labour aren't ruthless enough. The Tories are in disarray over the dementia tax, and they should be skewered again and again. But Labour will probably hold off.

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mr cheesy
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It seems to me that there is a level of naivety going on here, probably due to poor policy planning and the timing of the snap election.

I think it is probably true that richer older people in the UK need to sell assets to pay for their care in older age, including their housing. Not a very fashionable or socialist-sounding idea, I know, but the alternative appears to be to bankrupt the NHS and the social care system as everyone gets older and there are less people working and paying tax.

But this announcement came at the worst possible time for the Tories and completely alienated their base.

I'm less sure about student fees - it certainly sounds like a vote-winner from Labour, although I've had conversations with serious academics who say that the Scottish "free education" model is less progressive than the English fee-based regime for the poorest students.

Given a choice of the two policies, I think I'd tax old people and provide free university education - on the basis that we need the skills in the economy to pay for the care of everyone else.

In practice I suspect that the Tory policy will only affect those who have moderate amounts of savings or assets and who haven't financially planned ahead. I'm sure many richer people are currently looking for ways to pass on their assets to their families before they get sick so that the end effect is that the state pays anyway.

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arse

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Adeodatus
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I just popped in to ask, after this morning's fiasco - unheard-of u-turning on a general election manifesto policy - does anyone else think the Tories are actually trying to lose?

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I just popped in to ask, after this morning's fiasco - unheard-of u-turning on a general election manifesto policy - does anyone else think the Tories are actually trying to lose?

Dunno, but at this rate it looks like we're heading for a hung parliament.

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arse

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I just popped in to ask, after this morning's fiasco - unheard-of u-turning on a general election manifesto policy - does anyone else think the Tories are actually trying to lose?

It may be complacency. They had a 20 point lead in the polls, they had Corbyn tagged as a mugwump, and so on. But actually, he is quite good at campaigning with crowds, whereas May looks like a sixth former who has never been outside the vicarage.

And they seem unprepared for an election. God help us with Brexit negotiations. The lady is for turning.

I think the Tories will still win, though. I'm curious to see how right wing Labour deal with this - do they want Labour to lose?

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm less sure about student fees - it certainly sounds like a vote-winner from Labour, although I've had conversations with serious academics who say that the Scottish "free education" model is less progressive than the English fee-based regime for the poorest students.

Universal benefits may look superficially less redistributive than means-tested benefits, but I think they're more progressive overall. There are several advantages to universal benefits. They give everyone a stake in the benefit. They mean that the benefit isn't stigmatised as a sign of relative failure. You don't have any invidious lines on which someone on the wrong side of the line loses out. There's much less money and time spent administering who qualifies and ensuring nobody gets what they're not entitled to.

The NHS is not means-tested. I think it's more progressive than any means-tested health-care service.

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quetzalcoatl
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Another point about the dementia tax U-turn, is that Mrs May is rather inept. But then so is Corbyn, so you have a choice between two ineptnesses.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Universal benefits may look superficially less redistributive than means-tested benefits, but I think they're more progressive overall. There are several advantages to universal benefits. They give everyone a stake in the benefit. They mean that the benefit isn't stigmatised as a sign of relative failure. You don't have any invidious lines on which someone on the wrong side of the line loses out. There's much less money and time spent administering who qualifies and ensuring nobody gets what they're not entitled to.

As far as I understood the argument, the issue is to do with the availability of living-cost grants - on the basis that the tuition fee part makes no difference whilst a student - and that the living-cost grants in Scotland were not progressive.

They seemed to be arguing that in Scotland the SNP make a big deal out of the student fee thing but were making little effort to get those from poorer backgrounds to university.

quote:
The NHS is not means-tested. I think it's more progressive than any means-tested health-care service.
I think it is a bit different to a health system in this respect: in a properly working economy, those who have higher qualifications should be earning more than those who don't. And so, it can be argued, a tax system that pays for university education is charging poor workers who never get a chance to go to university to put the privileged into jobs that they'd never have a chance to access.

Yes, it is also true that the NHS is charging the healthy to pay for the sick, but there is a much lower correlation between expensive healthcare and earnings.

I think it is reasonable to ask those who benefit from university education to pay for it, I just think that turning that obligation into a personal financial debt is the completely wrong way to do it. And incredibly unfair.

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arse

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:

I think it is a bit different to a health system in this respect: in a properly working economy, those who have higher qualifications should be earning more than those who don't. And so, it can be argued, a tax system that pays for university education is charging poor workers who never get a chance to go to university to put the privileged into jobs that they'd never have a chance to access.

On the other hand, a number of jobs in things like the care sector, both require a university level education and don't particularly pay much. Funding education out of properly progressive taxation would stop paying for university fees being a subsidy that the poor pay to the rich.
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quetzalcoatl
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I'm hearing people actually talking about the possibility of Labour winning. I doubt it, but still, it's interesting to watch the Tory clusterfuck and ensuing panic.

Bloody hell, is this how they're going to handle Brexit negotiations? Help. We're in trouble.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

Bloody hell, is this how they're going to handle Brexit negotiations? Help. We're in trouble.

I suspect that they'll manufacture an excuse to walk away - they are already trialling this line in the media.
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quetzalcoatl
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But presumably, they'll walk away and then walk back.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm hearing people actually talking about the possibility of Labour winning. I doubt it, but still, it's interesting to watch the Tory clusterfuck and ensuing panic.

Loads of election campaigns (all of them?) have a bit of a mid-campaign wobble. This is the Tory one.

In some ways, it's quite well timed. Postal votes are going out and, with such a large poll lead, there was always the danger of complacency amongst Tory voters. A narrowing of the polls should help ensure they go out to vote to bury Labour.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

Bloody hell, is this how they're going to handle Brexit negotiations? Help. We're in trouble.

I suspect that they'll manufacture an excuse to walk away - they are already trialling this line in the media.
Though presumably not walk away in the sensible direction (leave things as they are until we figure out what the hell we want).

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm hearing people actually talking about the possibility of Labour winning. I doubt it, but still, it's interesting to watch the Tory clusterfuck and ensuing panic.

Bloody hell, is this how they're going to handle Brexit negotiations? Help. We're in trouble.

I doubt very much that the Labour Party will win. However, the opposition, the EU negotiating team and members of her own party will have noted that she makes policy on the fly and gets rattled easily, when found out, and pretty much everyone will have noted that the claim that the whole thing was put about by Jeremy Corbyn was on the level of "the dog ate my homework" style of excuses. She can get away with this now, with the country in a seizure of nationalist lunacy and Catweazle as the Leader of the Opposition. When people start noticing the disparity between their pay rise and the rise in prices at the supermarket and with competent politicians harrying her about her policies, not so much. We complained about Blair and Thatcher but at least they had election wins and serious achievements under their belts before they went off their rocker.

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MarsmanTJ
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I'm mystified by the whole thing about trust tonight. Apparently, May wants to fight the election on the basis of who do you trust!? When one party leader is virtually the textbook definition of consistent in his views, and she flip-flops virtually constantly, and hopes no-one notices. Corbyn may be weak (in TV bully pulpit persona, certainly) but he's not untrustworthy when it comes to his word. Wholly consistent. She isn't. I won't be voting for either of their parties (Tory safe seat, Lib Dems in 2nd but a LONG way behind) but it's an odd way to fight an election, on something you're not known for.

[ 22. May 2017, 19:03: Message edited by: MarsmanTJ ]

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
However, the opposition, the EU negotiating team and members of her own party will have noted that she makes policy on the fly and gets rattled easily

A couple of commentaries on her have noted her colleagues complaints that she tends to dither (and then stick to her guns despite evidence to the contrary). In that vein the past year could be seen as procrastination on the level that would make a student supposed to be revising proud.
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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
I'm mystified by the whole thing about trust tonight. Apparently, May wants to fight the election on the basis of who do you trust!? When one party leader is virtually the textbook definition of consistent in his views, and she flip-flops virtually constantly, and hopes no-one notices. Corbyn may be weak (in TV bully pulpit persona, certainly) but he's not untrustworthy when it comes to his word. Wholly consistent. She isn't. I won't be voting for either of their parties (Tory safe seat, Lib Dems in 2nd but a LONG way behind) but it's an odd way to fight an election, on something you're not known for.

I thought that there was a law of political opposites, esp. at election times. If you feel weak and wobbly, then use the rhetoric of strong and stable. If you are always changing your mind, then go with trustworthy. You will get found out, but who cares.

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Sarah G
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think the Tories will still win, though. I'm curious to see how right wing Labour deal with this - do they want Labour to lose?

I imagine the thought of Corbyn winning gives them the same fear knot in the stomach that we all got when we realised Trump might win.

Quite rightly.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think the Tories will still win, though. I'm curious to see how right wing Labour deal with this - do they want Labour to lose?

I imagine the thought of Corbyn winning gives them the same fear knot in the stomach that we all got when we realised Trump might win.

Quite rightly.

So do you think they want Labour to lose?

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
I imagine the thought of Corbyn winning gives them the same fear knot in the stomach that we all got when we realised Trump might win.

Not forgetting that Trump did win, and win despite all early expectations he would lose decisively.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think the Tories will still win, though. I'm curious to see how right wing Labour deal with this - do they want Labour to lose?

I imagine the thought of Corbyn winning gives them the same fear knot in the stomach that we all got when we realised Trump might win.

Quite rightly.

Do you mean because you think Corbyn is badly prepared to run a country and possibly doesn't really want the job? Maybe. But Theresa May is clearly equally badly prepared to run a country. At least Corbyn isn't going to U-turn at the whim of Paul Dacre, a bilious millionaire so out of touch he had to have the concept of an ATM explained to him.

[ 22. May 2017, 20:42: Message edited by: Dafyd ]

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarah G:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think the Tories will still win, though. I'm curious to see how right wing Labour deal with this - do they want Labour to lose?

I imagine the thought of Corbyn winning gives them the same fear knot in the stomach that we all got when we realised Trump might win.

Quite rightly.

I think it is more like the feeling the Tory establishment had when they realised that Cameron's referendum to stop the Euro-skeptics had failed. They went into that feeling they couldn't lose but just as there is a good deal of hubris around, nemesis is being dealt out in larger measure than usual.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
A couple of commentaries on her have noted her colleagues complaints that she tends to dither (and then stick to her guns despite evidence to the contrary). In that vein the past year could be seen as procrastination on the level that would make a student supposed to be revising proud.

It is easy to forget that she was hastily picked as a healing balm to to entirely unexpected Leave victory meteorite. A lot of debris is still descending from that, it might turn out that the iron lady Mk2 isn't made of the right metal.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Pasco
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I just popped in to ask, after this morning's fiasco - unheard-of u-turning on a general election manifesto policy - does anyone else think the Tories are actually trying to lose?

There seems to be a trend i.e. in the DNA of political parties who all seem to indulge in 'U-TURNS' a.k.a. "predictive programming," so that after the election they can do another u-turn returning back to their original intensions (having previously 'alerted' their intensions that of going against popular will/well-being of the people). The Lib-Dems did it when in partnership with the Cons., Labour did the same, Cons. did it in the past and no doubt will be doing so again (on this occasion bringing the dementia tax despite the 'u-turn'). In our local area, it is a case of voting for a guy who has done things for the local area, who will be getting the (family) vote. Our local councillor is an independent (ex Labour) voted in for opposing a local 'u-turn', his colleague and himself both becoming our local councillors, one of whom is now standing at the National elections and supported by the other. Will be voting for the underdog. [Smile]

[PS: At the national level politics affects all classes including underdogs, who seem to chase (their) tail (effecting several circular u-turns), much as the Ouraboros or serpent eating its tail...euphemism for 'Freemasonic' a.k.a. powerful esoteric influences programmed towards a new world order. Ted Heath knew well in advance that the proposed Economic Community was a euphemism for a political Union, as part of a future ten region governed United Nations. Margaret Thatcher opposed it vigourously. Not many have since. We're destined for a new world order, Brexit or no Brexit]

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mr cheesy
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I've been reflecting this morning how the Manchester attack is going to impact on the GE.

Without wanting to speculate or make assumptions about who or what has happened, it seems likely that the narrative of the GE campaign is going to change and that the Tories are going to gain votes.

Bollocks.


[Votive]

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arse

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lowlands_boy
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I've been reflecting this morning how the Manchester attack is going to impact on the GE.

Without wanting to speculate or make assumptions about who or what has happened, it seems likely that the narrative of the GE campaign is going to change and that the Tories are going to gain votes.

Bollocks.


[Votive]

It's a terrible open goal for the "Corbyn liked the IRA" mob isn't it. I really really hope Corbyn and May will be able to appear together in Manchester today. Major and Blair managed it after Dunblane (although I believe they fell out over it afterwards on petty matters). Then they can do something constructive for the country today, in the way they both claim they want to.

[Votive]

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quetzalcoatl
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It's probably wrapped it up for the Tories. The links are going to be obvious, Corbyn, soft on terrorism, IRA, Hamas, Theresa May strong leader, you can practically write the headlines already.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
It's a terrible open goal for the "Corbyn liked the IRA" mob isn't it.

Um. Is that a typo? Surely the opposite is true - it is a goal for those who think Corbyn is weak on terrorism.

I guess we'll see if anyone uses it in the GE campaign. I'd hope not, but suspect it will come up in the next few days.

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arse

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
It's a terrible open goal for the "Corbyn liked the IRA" mob isn't it.

Um. Is that a typo? Surely the opposite is true - it is a goal for those who think Corbyn is weak on terrorism.

I guess we'll see if anyone uses it in the GE campaign. I'd hope not, but suspect it will come up in the next few days.

It will be a further indicator of the cheapshot it has been for many years. Successive UK governments have supported terrorists, albeit those overseas, for as long as anyone can remember. Our support for the anti-Gaddafi groups in Libya only served to cause civil war there and strengthen Da'esh.

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
It's a terrible open goal for the "Corbyn liked the IRA" mob isn't it.

Um. Is that a typo? Surely the opposite is true - it is a goal for those who think Corbyn is weak on terrorism.

I guess we'll see if anyone uses it in the GE campaign. I'd hope not, but suspect it will come up in the next few days.

Open goal in the sense of opportunity. Security is not, to put it politely, one of Mr Corbyn's strengths. After a decent interval I expect the Conservatives to draw attention to this fact.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:
It's a terrible open goal for the "Corbyn liked the IRA" mob isn't it.

Um. Is that a typo? Surely the opposite is true - it is a goal for those who think Corbyn is weak on terrorism.

I guess we'll see if anyone uses it in the GE campaign. I'd hope not, but suspect it will come up in the next few days.

Open goal in the sense of opportunity. Security is not, to put it politely, one of Mr Corbyn's strengths. After a decent interval I expect the Conservatives to draw attention to this fact.
But this isn't new, though, is it? And reports of Corbyn's past sympathies for the IRA resurfaced earlier this week. I'm not sure how recent events would change matters since the perception about Mr Corbyn already exists and appears widespread.
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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Added to which the "Corbyn is weak on security" usually relates almost entirely on whether or not he would order a nuclear strike, or whether he supports military action in Syria or Iraq. Which is totally irrelevant.

The relevant details are whether he would support the work of the police and security services in gathering intelligence on criminal activity within the UK, of which I have seen nothing to suggest that he would be any different from any other political leader. And, whether he would seek to address underlying issues that can lead to radicalisation or other criminal activity - and, he seems to be better placed to do that than Mrs May (he's already shown a willingness to talk to people who have grievances to try and understand where they are coming from).

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Yes indeed, and all in his favour, but the Daily Heil and the Daily Distress would not be interested in such things. Neither would the Sun, unless he had nice legs.

[Disappointed]

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Anglican't
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# 15292

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Added to which the "Corbyn is weak on security" usually relates almost entirely on whether or not he would order a nuclear strike, or whether he supports military action in Syria or Iraq. Which is totally irrelevant.

He's also come unstuck on a shoot-to-kill policy and has senior shadow cabinet members who have until recently (and perhaps still do, who knows?) backed the disarmament of the police and the abolition of MI5.
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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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#facepalm

I guess I should have predicted that some might even take this line of attack on this thread..

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arse

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Added to which the "Corbyn is weak on security" usually relates almost entirely on whether or not he would order a nuclear strike, or whether he supports military action in Syria or Iraq. Which is totally irrelevant.

He's also come unstuck on a shoot-to-kill policy and has senior shadow cabinet members who have until recently (and perhaps still do, who knows?) backed the disarmament of the police and the abolition of MI5.
That refers to a letter which came out of a meeting at which there were calls for MI5 and special police squads to be disbanded. John McDonnell was at the meeting but didn't see the letter, less still sign it. The Sun issued its usual half-assed correction.

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Anglican't
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# 15292

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I thought (but am open to correction if I'm wrong) that he was photographed holding the letter?
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Callan
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# 525

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Added to which the "Corbyn is weak on security" usually relates almost entirely on whether or not he would order a nuclear strike, or whether he supports military action in Syria or Iraq. Which is totally irrelevant.

The relevant details are whether he would support the work of the police and security services in gathering intelligence on criminal activity within the UK, of which I have seen nothing to suggest that he would be any different from any other political leader. And, whether he would seek to address underlying issues that can lead to radicalisation or other criminal activity - and, he seems to be better placed to do that than Mrs May (he's already shown a willingness to talk to people who have grievances to try and understand where they are coming from).

Well, I was rather thinking of the interview where he opposed a "shoot to kill" policy with regard to terrorists. Right now I'm guessing the the public mood may have shifted from "theoretically unsympathetic" to "who's fucking side are you on?". And, whilst it may be the case in some circles that an appropriate response to a homicidal maniac letting off a bomb at a pop concert full of teenaged girls is to stress talking to the persons concerned in order to try and understand where they are coming from, many of the electorate will be thinking in terms of nicking the fuckers and locking them up. I also think that having friends from Islamic organisations which use suicide bombing as a tactic is not really a good look in an election campaign where a suicide bomber has just murdered a bunch of kids. People are wont to be judgemental about such things.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Added to which the "Corbyn is weak on security" usually relates almost entirely on whether or not he would order a nuclear strike, or whether he supports military action in Syria or Iraq. Which is totally irrelevant.

He's also come unstuck on a shoot-to-kill policy
Which is, again, irrelevant. The number of occasions where shoot-to-kill is an issue is vanishingly small - and would not have included what happened in Manchester. If all the police at Westminster were armed then a shoot-to-kill policy might have saved one life, since those killed on the bridge were hit before any police officers could have possibly been in a position to shoot anyone. The only time it might need to be considered is in an intelligence lead pre-emptive raid on a known criminal gang, in which case that decision can be made in the planning of the raid without the need for a blanket policy (and, the police would still prefer to have suspects they can question than corpses).

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Callan
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# 525

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I thought (but am open to correction if I'm wrong) that he was photographed holding the letter?

Google is your friend.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Well, I was rather thinking of the interview where he opposed a "shoot to kill" policy with regard to terrorists.

Which I just addressed in the cross-post.

quote:
And, whilst it may be the case in some circles that an appropriate response to a homicidal maniac letting off a bomb at a pop concert full of teenaged girls is to stress talking to the persons concerned in order to try and understand where they are coming from, many of the electorate will be thinking in terms of nicking the fuckers and locking them up.
Obviously when someone has committed a crime, the appropriate response is to nick 'em, give 'em a fair trial and if found guilty lock 'em up for an appropriate period of time. Which is a matter of policing, and I've not seen any suggestion that Corbyn will undermine the ability of the police to do their job - quite the opposite as he's talking about increasing the number of police (even if Ms Abbott is unclear on the costs).

My point wasn't in relation to current criminal activity. It's about how to change things so that the kids of today don't contemplate blowing themselves up at a concert in 5-10 years. It's about changing the attitude of societies to see that there is a peaceful and legal route to address their grievances. And building a desire and belief in those communities so that people inclined to do that get reported to the police before they go and start making bombs. It's about social and economic justice, so that there is reduced injustice against which a very small minority react with violence.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I thought (but am open to correction if I'm wrong) that he was photographed holding the letter?

There is a photograph with a letter that might be the same letter.

That isn't the same thing as campaigning to end MI5.

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Hallellou, hallellou

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BroJames
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# 9636

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Added to which the "Corbyn is weak on security" usually relates almost entirely on whether or not he would order a nuclear strike, or whether he supports military action in Syria or Iraq. Which is totally irrelevant.

He's also come unstuck on a shoot-to-kill policy and has senior shadow cabinet members who have until recently (and perhaps still do, who knows?) backed the disarmament of the police and the abolition of MI5.
On the first of those issues, however, the BBC Trust found that the BBC report by Laura Kuenssberg (on which the furore mostly turned) had presented what Corbyn had said as if it were an answer to something he had not in fact been asked, and used the answer as then presented to suggest opposition to other policies about which he had also not been asked. The BBC Trust found that the report breached the BBC's standards on accuracy, and as a result had also breached the BBC's standards on impartiality.

[Cross-posted with a number of others including Callan]

[ 23. May 2017, 15:16: Message edited by: BroJames ]

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I thought (but am open to correction if I'm wrong) that he was photographed holding the letter?

Google is your friend.
Google also brings up the Suspect Usuals saying the opposite.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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anne
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# 73

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's probably wrapped it up for the Tories. The links are going to be obvious, Corbyn, soft on terrorism, IRA, Hamas, Theresa May strong leader, you can practically write the headlines already.

I am sure you are right - but I don't quite understand the logic of this argument. Although it will be painted as "Terrorist's beardy friend" vs "(Strong and) Stable Mayble", the choice will in practise be "Untried and untested leader" vs "leader when this terrible thing was planned and carried out who presided over this terrible failure of intelligence and counter-terrorism."

Of course it is hideously unfair to apportion responsibility for this abomination to the Prime Minister - but I think that we are about to watch a narrative unfold where the leader of the opposition is seen as more responsible than the PM - or at least more likely to let something like this happen again.
How could this narrative from the right-leaning media be countered?

anne

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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale

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Ricardus
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# 8757

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Someone could ask Amber Rudd if she's found the necessary hashtags yet ...

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by anne:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's probably wrapped it up for the Tories. The links are going to be obvious, Corbyn, soft on terrorism, IRA, Hamas, Theresa May strong leader, you can practically write the headlines already.

I am sure you are right - but I don't quite understand the logic of this argument. Although it will be painted as "Terrorist's beardy friend" vs "(Strong and) Stable Mayble", the choice will in practise be "Untried and untested leader" vs "leader when this terrible thing was planned and carried out who presided over this terrible failure of intelligence and counter-terrorism."

Of course it is hideously unfair to apportion responsibility for this abomination to the Prime Minister - but I think that we are about to watch a narrative unfold where the leader of the opposition is seen as more responsible than the PM - or at least more likely to let something like this happen again.
How could this narrative from the right-leaning media be countered?

anne

It's an interesting question, and there are obviously a whole range of counter-attacks available. I would be tempted to go full tilt, and say that Mrs May has proved to be unreliable and dishonest, blah blah blah, Mrs U-turn, and so on, you can't trust her with Brexit or security.

I suspect that Corbyn will not do this, as he doesn't believe in that kind of attack. He may be right, as being so aggressive may put people off.

I don't think he will spend much time on the issue of terrorism, but he will plug away at other issues, such as NHS, education, and so on.

But Mrs May is now in full plumage, standing in Downing St, pronouncing on the Manchester bomb, and the security aspects, surely this will give her a boost? I think Corbyn has made a brave effort, but it has been aborted. (This is a guess!).

[ 23. May 2017, 22:05: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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I guess we'd also emphasise the existing manifesto pledges to increase police numbers, maintain NATO commitments etc and point out the tories broke their pledge to maintain the size of the army and that the number of soldiers has actually dropped under their leadership.

A bigger concern I have, is how long the campaign is suspended for now that the threat level has been raised to critical. If it continues for more than a couple of days, they should probably move the polling date.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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