|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: UK General Election June 8th 2017
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Someone at LibDem HQ needs to be running the numbers if they aren't already - Vince this morning on BBC R4 ruled out working with Labour post election.
During the Commons debate Farron refused to rule out coalitions with anyone.
That said, it seems unlikely that the Tories would want to go in coalition with the LD
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
... Someone at LibDem HQ needs to be running the numbers if they aren't already - Vince this morning on BBC R4 ruled out working with Labour post election.
He's probably right on that. IMHO Corbyn is even less likely to be prepared to co-operate with anyone else than Gordon Brown was. He would regard it as a betrayal of both his vision and his claque team. The whole idea of such a thing is deeply and profoundly foreign to his nature.
The one fundamental pre-condition for anyone to be able to enter into a coalition with Labour would be Labour having a different leader, and the dominant element among its members won't wear that.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Dear God, how depressing it all is.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Where's that bottle of single malt?
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
I know what party I support, and for whom I will doubtless vote (it isn't the Tories, even though my local Tory MP voted Remain), but what's the point? Unless some unprecedented miracle of inter-party co-operation occurs (O look, a flock of flying pigs....), we're going to be stuck with that Bloody May Woman and her Bloody Party for decades ...
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Dear God, how depressing it all is.
IJ
This might as well be my sig. Out of fear, people are turning the world into one that should scare them even more.
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
The one fundamental pre-condition for anyone to be able to enter into a coalition with Labour would be Labour having a different leader, and the dominant element among its members won't wear that.
Most British politicians fall on their swords when they lose a major vote. I hope to see Labour get such a mauling that, one way or the other, they get rid of Corbyn and begin the healing process to make them electable again. As happened in the 1980's and 90's. The honourable thing for him to do would be to resign, but if he's too thick skinned he needs to be pushed. As long as he isn't replaced by the odious Mr McDonnell.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
|
Posted
Amen to all that.
--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
The problem with the leaders is that there is no clear person to replace them. I don't think there is single person in the leadership of any of the major parties who I would trust with posting a letter, never mind leading the country.
The problem is we had a referendum last year on a simple question, ignoring the complexities of that decision, and some people made it a vote on whether Cameron should carry on. That vote is used to justify all sorts of crap.
So now, we have a General Election which is being run based on Brexit, with both main parties being on the same side of that question. Which makes no sense whatsoever. And after people vote for for all sorts of reasons one side or the other, the government will then take that as a mandate for doing whatever they want (not just with Brexit, but with everything). We will have 5 years of a government voted in on the basis of one issue. With no choice.
It is insane. And we will be fucked whatever. I despair.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bene Gesserit
Shipmate
# 14718
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The problem with the leaders is that there is no clear person to replace them. I don't think there is single person in the leadership of any of the major parties who I would trust with posting a letter, never mind leading the country.
What Schroedinger's cat said
--------------------
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus
Posts: 405 | From: Flatlands of the East | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
A Dutch friend of mine has suggested the EU might consider suspending exit negotiations until the General Election is over, so they can be absolutely sure who they are dealing with.
If that happens, it will take almost another month off the alotted time, won't it?
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
|
Posted
Thanks for the responses. Appreciated.
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Alan: quote:
I don't expect to see MPs or candidates getting gunned down in the street.
I don't either, but it happened last year. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
I think this is where my colleague was going...
Apathy can be troublesome, but compared to violent protests I would prefer it...
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If that happens, it will take almost another month off the alotted time, won't it?
Remember folks, Nicola Sturgeon was irresponsible to suggest an independence referendum in the run up to Brexit because the UK government needed to concentrate on the negotiations.
--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
He's probably right on that. IMHO Corbyn is even less likely to be prepared to co-operate with anyone else than Gordon Brown was. He would regard it as a betrayal of both his vision and his claque team. The whole idea of such a thing is deeply and profoundly foreign to his nature.
The one fundamental pre-condition for anyone to be able to enter into a coalition with Labour would be Labour having a different leader, and the dominant element among its members won't wear that.
Where do you get this nonsense from? Corbyn has no problem co-operating with other people, and I've no idea what a "claque team" is. As for the idea that the junior party in a coalition could force out the elected leader of the senior party: I hope you're enjoying whatever it is you're smoking! Damn right the members wouldn't wear it, and why on earth should they? The only way Labour are going to be considering a coalition is if they're the largest party. Could Clegg have made Cameron resigning a condition of coalition in 2010? Don't be absurd.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
|
Posted
On Corbyn, perhaps another ignorant question from me:
Why is there such a disconnect between the Labour faithful [who love Corbyn] and everyone else? If Corbyn were to be rolled, how would the everyday member who loves him react? [I think I could guess, but would they just move on?]
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
Ian, the problem there is that there are a lot of ordinary Party members who prefer doctrinal purity to electability.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If that happens, it will take almost another month off the alotted time, won't it?
Not really. It has already been made clear that negotiations won't get off the ground until June. In that sense the PM's timing is perfect.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Ian, the problem there is that there are a lot of ordinary Party members who prefer doctrinal purity to electability.
Thanks.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
If Corbyn were to be rolled, how would the everyday member who loves him react? [I think I could guess, but would they just move on?]
Back in 1982 Jeremy Corbyn and his close friend and ally Ken Livingstone were at the forefront of opposition to the expulsion of the Trotskyite Militant Tendency from the Labour Party. Well now they're back in in their latest incarnation as Momentum. These are the people behind Jeremy Corbyn now. It was only when Michael Foot and later Neil Kinnock enforced these expulsions that Labour began the long road back to electability. It's only when Labour learns the same lesson again and rids itself of this leadership and the malign influence of Momentum that it can rehabilitate itself. There are plenty of Labour MP's who can be at the forefront of this rehabilitation. I only hope it doesn't take 13 years this time. That's why I hope for a resounding Labour defeat so it has a chance of making itself fit to govern within the space of one parliament.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Ian, the problem there is that there are a lot of ordinary Party members who prefer doctrinal purity to electability.
But is the doctrinal purity of that Labour party members who support him the same as Corbyn's doctrinal purity? It seems to me that a lot of the enthusiastic young people who joined the Labour party to vote for Corbyn see him as the closest thing to the Green Party that they will get out of Labour. Corbyn's detractors, though, keep calling him a Leninist (which he may very well have been, and he may be running the party in an authoritarian way like a Leninist would, but my very little knowledge of his statements as party leader have not shown me yet anything to indicate that he is a Leninist rather than just very old school in his Labour Party politics. I know that I don't know much about him - so I'd like to hear from you exactly how he is a Leninist today!... and whether or not the Labour Party members that support him are Leninists).
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Party member here.
Nah, he's not talking for me.
Is he talking for any party member here?
Well I like the stuff he says (but I'm a Tory Party member...)
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
Is there any chance that even if the anti-Tory parties themselves can't get their act together to form an electoral pact, that there could be a grass roots movement to unite voters behind a single anti-Tory candidate (the one most likely to win) in each constituency (and leaving out other objectionable parties like UKIP)? If this succeeded and a very unstable anti-Tory coalition managed to negotiate a very soft Brexit (if not a reversal of Brexit, given that Article 50 has already been invoked) before collapsing and there being another election, would this be preferable to stable Tory government and Brexit negotiations proceeding with the position that May has laid out?
Also, even if Labour will not come out against Brexit, is the party and/or Corbyn really in favor of leaving the single market? Is it in favor of ending the free movement of people to and from EU countries?
I know that many historical Labour voters who have been sympathetic to UKIP and/or the Tories might feel this way, but I doubt they want much to do with Labour under Corbyn. They also seem to have already put one foot out of the party regardless of who is leading it.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If that happens, it will take almost another month off the alotted time, won't it?
Not really. It has already been made clear that negotiations won't get off the ground until June. In that sense the PM's timing is perfect.
The negotiations will start then. But, between now and then the EU negotiators will be formulating their response to the letter Mrs May wrote triggering Article 50 and the white paper, meeting other European leaders to gauge what room they'll have and still get something that will be approved etc. They could continue that process ready for a June start to negotiations. Or, they could pause so that if the election results in a change of government (and, presumably negotiating position on Brexit) they don't have to bin most of what they've done before starting their response to the new UK position.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Back in 1982 Jeremy Corbyn and his close friend and ally Ken Livingstone were at the forefront of opposition to the expulsion of the Trotskyite Militant Tendency from the Labour Party. Well now they're back in in their latest incarnation as Momentum.
Momentum is not a Trotksyite organisation. The Trotskyites were trying to take it over in a coup - they may still be trying. But that doesn't mean that they've succeeded.
--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Corbyn has no problem co-operating with other people
He certainly has no problem co-operating with Teresa May.
--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
If this succeeded and a very unstable anti-Tory coalition managed to negotiate a very soft Brexit (if not a reversal of Brexit, given that Article 50 has already been invoked) before collapsing and there being another election, would this be preferable to stable Tory government and Brexit negotiations proceeding with the position that May has laid out?
Anything would be preferable to the position May has laid out, and another five years of Tory mis-rule. I would like a reversal of Brexit, but the big stumbling block there is the lack of enough parties standing on a reversal of Brexit platform. The Greens have been calling for a ratification referendum at the end of the negotiations, with a "stay in the EU" option for those unhappy with what the government has cooked up, the SNP would try to take Scotland back into the EU though I doubt they would campaign on keeping the UK as a whole in the EU. But, I don't see the Greens getting more than a handful of seats (which would be great in itself), and the SNP could sweep the board in Scotland and only have influence as a king-maker for a coalition (and, another IndyRef at a time chosen by the Scottish Parliament would be the price for that, not support for remaining in the EU).
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Is there any chance that even if the anti-Tory parties themselves can't get their act together to form an electoral pact, that there could be a grass roots movement to unite voters behind a single anti-Tory candidate (the one most likely to win) in each constituency
You mean something along these lines? (I don't even know who is compiling this one - someone linked it on facebook.)
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
If this succeeded and a very unstable anti-Tory coalition managed to negotiate a very soft Brexit (if not a reversal of Brexit, given that Article 50 has already been invoked) before collapsing and there being another election, would this be preferable to stable Tory government and Brexit negotiations proceeding with the position that May has laid out?
Anything would be preferable to the position May has laid out, and another five years of Tory mis-rule. I would like a reversal of Brexit, but the big stumbling block there is the lack of enough parties standing on a reversal of Brexit platform. The Greens have been calling for a ratification referendum at the end of the negotiations, with a "stay in the EU" option for those unhappy with what the government has cooked up, the SNP would try to take Scotland back into the EU though I doubt they would campaign on keeping the UK as a whole in the EU. But, I don't see the Greens getting more than a handful of seats (which would be great in itself), and the SNP could sweep the board in Scotland and only have influence as a king-maker for a coalition (and, another IndyRef at a time chosen by the Scottish Parliament would be the price for that, not support for remaining in the EU).
But couldn't Labour, the SNP, the Greens, and the Lib Dems all agree that if Brexit does happen (suppose the EU won't let the UK go back on Invoking Article 50), and, in the SNP's case, as long as Scotland is still part of the UK, that the UK should stay in the single market - or have something as close to staying in the single market as possible, even if that means accepting the free movement of people/labor in and out of the EU from the UK?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Momentum is not a Trotksyite organisation. The Trotskyites were trying to take it over in a coup - they may still be trying. But that doesn't mean that they've succeeded.
To the rest of us, who aren't interested in 'no-true-Trotskyist' dogma-fests, Momentum are Trots.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
If this succeeded and a very unstable anti-Tory coalition managed to negotiate a very soft Brexit (if not a reversal of Brexit, given that Article 50 has already been invoked) before collapsing and there being another election, would this be preferable to stable Tory government and Brexit negotiations proceeding with the position that May has laid out?
Anything would be preferable to the position May has laid out, and another five years of Tory mis-rule. I would like a reversal of Brexit, but the big stumbling block there is the lack of enough parties standing on a reversal of Brexit platform. The Greens have been calling for a ratification referendum at the end of the negotiations, with a "stay in the EU" option for those unhappy with what the government has cooked up, the SNP would try to take Scotland back into the EU though I doubt they would campaign on keeping the UK as a whole in the EU. But, I don't see the Greens getting more than a handful of seats (which would be great in itself), and the SNP could sweep the board in Scotland and only have influence as a king-maker for a coalition (and, another IndyRef at a time chosen by the Scottish Parliament would be the price for that, not support for remaining in the EU).
But couldn't Labour, the SNP, the Greens, and the Lib Dems all agree that if Brexit does happen (suppose the EU won't let the UK go back on Invoking Article 50), and, in the SNP's case, as long as Scotland is still part of the UK, that the UK should stay in the single market - or have something as close to staying in the single market as possible, even if that means accepting the free movement of people/labor in and out of the EU from the UK?
They could but, if you'll forgive me, you're posting like all this is happening in a vacuum where Brexit is the only thing happening. For a tiny number of people on both sides of the debate, that's true. It's also true that it's going to colour every aspect of life in the UK for years, *however* schools, hospitals, defence, everything else has still got to go on and people are being asked to vote on all those things as well.
Even a united position on Brexit is difficult - I wouldn't want to be writing any party's manifesto as the grammarians are going to have to pull off a blinder in terms of the form of words they can get away with using to encourage the core support to stay motivated.
Labour have got something like the 25 most Remain and 25 most Leave seats. Yes, Labour voters mostly voted remain, but how do they square that circle now the genie's out of the bottle?
The Liberals are starting from a really low number of seats, have had a massive boost in membership since the referendum, but have to face the fact that they got down to pretty well their core vote in 2015 and 25% of those voters voted Leave. Yes, they could write them off but it's your activists that deliver the leaflets and knock on doors - which is the grimmest job in the world (having done it myself); do they just hope that the new members will do that instead?
The SNP has probably less to worry about, but even they're not out of the woods. A mate of mine campaigns for them in Govan - talking to him last night he reckons they've got a slight issue with the most purist hardcore indie Scotland campaigners that go and do the door knocking on the street also voting Leave. Don't be surprised if even the SNP's manifesto ends up talking about "closest possible relationship with the EU" but stops short of committing to EU membership.
The whole thing's got people on the ship very excited (me included) but I really don't think we're representative of the real world. A "progressive alliance" is doomed a) because Jeremy ruled it out last night, b) because it's what did for Labour last time "Labour's dog is going to be wagged by the Scottish Nationalist tail" goes down well in England as an attack line, and c) because people are tribal, and don't want to have to vote Labour because the Liberals have stood down to give them a free run in their seat (for example).
Informal things may happen at a local level, but that's just IMO going to add to the chaos on election night. Tories to win by 40 I reckon, but with radically different seats to what they have now. Other parties also to have a complete mixed bag in their seat tallies of safe seats they were lucky to hold and seats they shouldn't have won in their wildest dreams.
If you can stay detached from the fact that peoples' lives are in the balance (ok big ask), it's going to be fascinating.
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
I've just seen today's Daily Mirror - the *Daily Mirror* page 6-7 warning that any Labour MP with a majority under 5,000 is at "serious risk" - that's 25% of them.
Dear God in heaven.
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
|
Posted
A problem with campaigning on reversing Brexit is whether it can be reversed. Article 50 has now been invoked. There's no explicit provision in the treaty to 'uninvoke' it. In theory the ECJ could rule that it contains an implicit power, but I imagine it would be impossible to get a ruling prior to the election. The only alternative is if the 27 other member states agreed to an 'uninvocation'. Risky: their price might be surrender of all the UK's opt-outs.
The reality is that the UK has crossed the Rubicon and all parties' campaign strategy has to take account of that.
I have heard a few more reasons for the PM calling the election.
1. As Brexit will take more than 3 years she wants to re-set the electoral cycle so that she doesn't face an election amidst negotiation.
2. There are rumours that Corbyn will step down of Labour's forthcoming local elections are poor. She wants to face Corbyn in a general election.
3. She wants to pursue a hard Brexit and so needs a big majority to sideline pesky backbenchers..
4. She wants to pursue a soft Brexit and sideline other pesky backbenchers.
5. She wants to lock in gain of support from UKIP.
6. She is worried about a Lib Dem resurgence. A Lib Dem resurgence to 16% could mean a swathe of Tory seats across the south of England reverting to the Lib Dems. I don't see it myself. The Lib Dems are only 3% up in the polls from their 2015 debacle. They would probably need to be at 16% to take those seats, and even if the Tories' vote didn't increase, which it probably will.
It's clear that the 2015 election - other than in Scotland - witnessed a large rightward shift, not to the Tories (whose vote hardly increased) but to UKIP. That UKIP vote is now trickling across to the Tories.
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Dear God, how depressing it all is.
Where's that bottle of single malt?
IJ
I'm currently halfway through a glass of Ben Nevis 10 but it isn't very nice, if that's any consolation. If someone could recommend me some sherry monsters I'd be very much obliged.
--------------------
"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
But couldn't Labour, the SNP, the Greens, and the Lib Dems all agree that if Brexit does happen (suppose the EU won't let the UK go back on Invoking Article 50), and, in the SNP's case, as long as Scotland is still part of the UK, that the UK should stay in the single market - or have something as close to staying in the single market as possible, even if that means accepting the free movement of people/labor in and out of the EU from the UK?
It should be possible. Though it still doesn't leave a voting option for those of us who think that leaving the EU is a totally idiotic move based on the results of a poorly conceived and executed referendum. But, we've already done the stupid stuff and can't go back to where we were, even if we revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU the political realities of our relations with the other nations in Europe have already been changed.
So, as a pragmatic option I would think a common position on Brexit (eg: to seek to maintain single market membership, similar to Norway) should work. Then people can vote for any of the non-Tory parties based on the rest of their policies according to their views on those rather than turn the election into a multi-way vote on different forms of Brexit. It would result in a majority of voters going for the non-Tory parties, hence even if the Tories increase their majority they can't argue that they have a popular vote mandate for their Brexit strategy. Which would just continue the mess they've got themselves and the country into.
Though there are too many people in the leadership of parties who wouldn't recognise pragmatism if it stamped on their foot. So, I'm not holding my breath for this to happen - no matter how much scope there is for giving the Tories a really hard time.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I've just seen today's Daily Mirror - the *Daily Mirror* page 6-7 warning that any Labour MP with a majority under 5,000 is at "serious risk" - that's 25% of them.
Dear God in heaven.
You shouldn't be reading the red-tops. It's bad for your health.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
I don't think a formal coalition is needed. If the Tories try to run a minority government, all that is needed is for everyone else to vote together to vote out the Grand Repeal bill and assorted bollocks.
Of course Corbyn doesn't want to tell everyone today that he'd form a coalition with the SNP. Coalitions form after the poll not before it, electoral pacts - which are much more informal - are far more likely on a local level, it seems to me.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I've just seen today's Daily Mirror - the *Daily Mirror* page 6-7 warning that any Labour MP with a majority under 5,000 is at "serious risk" - that's 25% of them.
Dear God in heaven.
You shouldn't be reading the red-tops. It's bad for your health.
It is, but we have them all in our office - useful for knowing what people are being told...
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If the Tories try to run a minority government
with the polls as they are, that's not on the cards either...
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
with the polls as they are, that's not on the cards either...
As I said above, I think there is at least a chance that the polls are wrong.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Momentum is not a Trotksyite organisation. The Trotskyites were trying to take it over in a coup - they may still be trying. But that doesn't mean that they've succeeded.
To the rest of us, who aren't interested in 'no-true-Trotskyist' dogma-fests, Momentum are Trots.
In my post earlier I was talking about self-identifying Trotskyists. There are about 200 of them. Momementum are less as Trotskyist than the CoE is Forward in Faith.
--------------------
The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Momentum is not a Trotksyite organisation. The Trotskyites were trying to take it over in a coup - they may still be trying. But that doesn't mean that they've succeeded.
To the rest of us, who aren't interested in 'no-true-Trotskyist' dogma-fests, Momentum are Trots.
This is about as accurate as calling Theresa May a fascist.
--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
....there are a lot of ordinary Party members who prefer doctrinal purity to electability.
Including, quite possibly, it's Leader.
Which is why news interviewers seem to adore sitting in front of JC, asking if he is 100% committed to Labour winning the next Election, then watching for a tell-tale response.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Corbyn has no problem co-operating with other people
And yet an awful lot of people from his own part of the political spectrum find him difficult to work with ...
--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
with the polls as they are, that's not on the cards either...
As I said above, I think there is at least a chance that the polls are wrong.
A very good chance, I'd say. I'm not ruling out a hung parliament.
On the subject of May wanting to increase her majority in order to nullify her pesky rebellious backbenchers, I'm not 100% sure that we know which rebellious backbenchers that means. It could well be the case that she favours a "soft" Brexit (she was on the Remain side of the referendum, remember) but doesn't have enough seats to get it past the headbangers as things stand, but with an increased majority of Remain-leaning Tories she could push far harder for a Norway-style solution.
After all, a softer Brexit would be better for business, and we all know the Tories are the Party of Big Business...
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Corbyn has no problem co-operating with other people
And yet an awful lot of people from his own part of the political spectrum find him difficult to work with ...
But they're all critics of Corbyn. Nothing they say can possibly be true.
--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Corbyn has no problem co-operating with other people
And yet an awful lot of people from his own part of the political spectrum find him difficult to work with ...
But they're all critics of Corbyn. Nothing they say can possibly be true.
That reminds me of someone else who was considered unelectable ...
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
I've met Corbyn: first when he was my local councillor (truly dreadful, everything, but everything, was related to the class struggle) and then socially through a relative.
I have to tell you, the thought of this man as PM is terrifying for the simple reason that he is really, really THICK. Even if you leave to one side the fact that he could start an argument if left in a room by himself, he really isn't very bright. To be blunt, I'd be more sanguine about Ken Livingstone as prospective PM than Corbyn (I can't believe I just wrote that but...) ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I've met Corbyn: first when he was my local councillor (truly dreadful, everything, but everything, was related to the class struggle) and then socially through a relative.
I have to tell you, the thought of this man as PM is terrifying for the simple reason that he is really, really THICK. Even if you leave to one side the fact that he could start an argument if left in a room by himself, he really isn't very bright. To be blunt, I'd be more sanguine about Ken Livingstone as prospective PM than Corbyn (I can't believe I just wrote that but...)
I appreciate that this is the internet and therefore you can all choose to believe me or not but I second this entirely.
A relative (female FWIW) knew him well politically and socially through Islington Militant in the early 80s - she was a member - and her take on him is similar, though less restrained in the language.
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497
|
Posted
On the tactical voting question someone raised last night, apparently Gina Miller (who took the government to court in order to force a parliamentary vote on triggering Article 50) is behind an attempt at "the biggest tactical vote ever".
Here is The Independent report on it.
--------------------
I thought I should update my signature line....
Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Momentum is not a Trotksyite organisation. The Trotskyites were trying to take it over in a coup - they may still be trying. But that doesn't mean that they've succeeded.
To the rest of us, who aren't interested in 'no-true-Trotskyist' dogma-fests, Momentum are Trots.
Momentum members look like old-fashioned Clause 4 Labourites to me. That's a long way from any kind of Trot. Some are Marxist-Leninists, but that isn't Trotskyist either. Do get your Socialists right please.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
