homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » UK General Election June 8th 2017 (Page 4)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  ...  32  33  34 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: UK General Election June 8th 2017
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Most people who contemplate tactical voting would presumably know (or, be able to find out easily enough) which candidate is most likely to beat the Tory candidate (or, Labour etc depending on who you want to keep out). That just requires looking at past voting patterns (the BBC has an extensive database of election results, other sources of such information are available).

--------------------
All I want for Christmas is EU

Posts: 32187 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

 - Posted      Profile for betjemaniac     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Most people who contemplate tactical voting would presumably know (or, be able to find out easily enough) which candidate is most likely to beat the Tory candidate (or, Labour etc depending on who you want to keep out). That just requires looking at past voting patterns (the BBC has an extensive database of election results, other sources of such information are available).

Indeed.

Without prejudice as to whether or not it might be a good thing, this does feel more like a Continuity Remain data-harvesting exercise...

--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1439 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497

 - Posted      Profile for lowlands_boy   Email lowlands_boy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Most people who contemplate tactical voting would presumably know (or, be able to find out easily enough) which candidate is most likely to beat the Tory candidate (or, Labour etc depending on who you want to keep out). That just requires looking at past voting patterns (the BBC has an extensive database of election results, other sources of such information are available).

Yes, but clearly her objective is to clarify the attitude of each candidate regarding Brexit, which is not necessarily as clear, as some candidates might not have any voting record to go on.

For her it's clearly not about party but about that single issue. So you need to know which candidate you are aiming for and against on that one issue.

--------------------
I thought I should update my signature line....

Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:

For her (the PM) it's clearly not about party but about that single issue. So you need to know which candidate you are aiming for and against on that one issue.

While it is a single issue it does not have a single potential outcome. Between the "Norway Position" through what appears to be the "Golden Option" (Single market of goods and services but no freedom of movement) to a simple Hard Brexit followed by decades of trade negotiations, there must be dozens of possibilities.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24053 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
lowlands_boy
Shipmate
# 12497

 - Posted      Profile for lowlands_boy   Email lowlands_boy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by lowlands_boy:

For her (the PM) it's clearly not about party but about that single issue. So you need to know which candidate you are aiming for and against on that one issue.

While it is a single issue it does not have a single potential outcome. Between the "Norway Position" through what appears to be the "Golden Option" (Single market of goods and services but no freedom of movement) to a simple Hard Brexit followed by decades of trade negotiations, there must be dozens of possibilities.
Yes, she's obviously aiming for at least that level of knowledge

quote:
Gina Miller said the group called Best for Britain will aim to back parliamentary candidates from all parties “who campaign for a real final vote on Brexit, including rejecting any deal that leaves Britain worse off.”
It just doesn't really help much as it doesn't strengthen our position with the people we are negotiating with, in my opinion. Nor does it help if your preferred Brexit candidate sucks on other issues that are important to you...

--------------------
I thought I should update my signature line....

Posts: 836 | From: North West UK | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618

 - Posted      Profile for betjemaniac     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Quite, and I'm really hoping that the penny is going to drop with more people in the next seven weeks that while this might partially be seen/framed as a second go at the Brexit referendum it's also a General Election.

If Brexit is the single most important thing in a person's life then they should vote for the person that most reflects their stance on Brexit.

They should be aware however that this does mean they may be voting in favour of a host of other things they really don't believe in/want at the same time and be prepared to live with that.

--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....

Posts: 1439 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013  |  IP: Logged
Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

 - Posted      Profile for Rosa Winkel   Author's homepage   Email Rosa Winkel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Momentum is not a Trotksyite organisation. The Trotskyites were trying to take it over in a coup - they may still be trying. But that doesn't mean that they've succeeded.

To the rest of us, who aren't interested in 'no-true-Trotskyist' dogma-fests, Momentum are Trots.
Momentum members look like old-fashioned Clause 4 Labourites to me. That's a long way from any kind of Trot. Some are Marxist-Leninists, but that isn't Trotskyist either. Do get your Socialists right please.
There are only minor parties who call themselves Trotskyist, one of which is the Socialist Party who as part of the Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition which also include RMT members, who represent a bigger group.

A grand total of 92 TUSC members joined the Labour Party in 2015. That's out of 350,000 who either joined the party as members or supporters during the leadership campaign of 2015 or shortly afterwards. The TUSC entry into Labour that period represents 0.03% of Labour members and supporters.

The Socialist Workers' Party were also part of the TUSC and put forward "dozens" of candidates in the 2015 election. The SWP claimed (in 2015) that they have 6,000 members. Let's be really very generous and say that all of them joined the Labour Party in 2015. That would represent 1.7% of new members.

The Communist Party of Great Britain had about 45 members in 2015. If all of them were to join, that would represent 0.01% new members.

Now, we're talking about the Labour party here. With regards to Momentum, they started taking in members in April 2016 and had 20,000 members and 170,000 supporters in the October of that year. So let's say that all of those previously mentioned groups who previously had joined Labour joined Momentum in 2016. Calculating this is not easy as some TUSC members were also SWP members, but still, let's be generous and say that they were not. That would represent a total of 3.23% of Momentum members are Trotkyists.

Even in the wildest Trotskyist dreams, Momentum are no Trotskyist party. In fact, from December 2015, members of other political parties are not allowed to take part and vote in discussions about the Labour Party.

So Sioni Saes is right. Enoch is wrong. I'm not sure that most members are the old Clause IV types, though. I guess (I don't have statistics to hand) that many are younger than 30 for whom the Clause IV is not much of an issue, though they would support it.

In the meantime, I'll try again: Given what Marvin said earlier are there any Labour members here who value purity over election success?

--------------------
The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

Posts: 3266 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Given that I strongly suspect Momentum members of covert collaboration with the Conservatives in a local by-election for local party-political reasons, I'm afraid I don't have a great deal of faith in the 'purity' of their position ...

Politics makes strange bedfellows.

The Lib Dems are still smarting from the Coalition.

I don't expect a great deal of 'purity' from the Labour Party given how I've seen them act over the years.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15526 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320

 - Posted      Profile for PaulTH*   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
There are only minor parties who call themselves Trotskyist

OK perhaps Trotskyist or Trotskyite the way it was bandied about in the 1970's and 80's isn't an accurate description of movements such as Momentum, but many of its older members are survivors of Militant Tendency, which was expelled from the Labour Party in the 1980's. So let's make no mistake about who these people are and the malign influence they have in the British political system. And of course

John McDonnell makes no secret of his hero worship of Lenin, Trotsky and Mao, whose Little Red Book he's been seen to quote from in the House of Commons. I want to see a Labour Party I can vote for with the enthusiasm I had in 1997. But I would move heaven and earth to keep this shower of shit as far from power as possible even if it means voting Tory.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul

Posts: 6383 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

 - Posted      Profile for Rosa Winkel   Author's homepage   Email Rosa Winkel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
There are only minor parties who call themselves Trotskyist

OK perhaps Trotskyist or Trotskyite the way it was bandied about in the 1970's and 80's isn't an accurate description of movements such as Momentum, but many of its older members are survivors of Militant Tendency, which was expelled from the Labour Party in the 1980's. So let's make no mistake about who these people are and the malign influence they have in the British political system. And of course

John McDonnell makes no secret of his hero worship of Lenin, Trotsky and Mao, whose Little Red Book he's been seen to quote from in the House of Commons. I want to see a Labour Party I can vote for with the enthusiasm I had in 1997. But I would move heaven and earth to keep this shower of shit as far from power as possible even if it means voting Tory.

To get any evidence to back up the claim of your first paragraph? Perhaps one could read this views of someone who used to be in Militant for some enlightenment.

You seem to have forgotten the context of McDonnell's quoting of Mao.

Context

--------------------
The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

Posts: 3266 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992

 - Posted      Profile for Adeodatus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Re: Trots - I'm willing to bet good money that not 1 in 10 people who use the word can name any of the distinctive features of Trotskyism without googling.

--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."

Posts: 9771 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Given that I strongly suspect Momentum members of covert collaboration with the Conservatives in a local by-election for local party-political reasons, I'm afraid I don't have a great deal of faith in the 'purity' of their position ...

Politics makes strange bedfellows.

Fascinating, I'd very much like to hear more about this if it is at all possible. I can't imagine a circumstance where Momentum Labour people collaborate with a Tory - that's quite mind-bending.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10325 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
To be fair, I think 'Twats' rather than 'Trots' would be a better description of some of our Momentum friends.

The issue, it seems to me, isn't so much what label we attach to their ideology but the way they behave.

At least with the Conservatives you know you need to count your fingers after you've shaken hands with them.

I'm sorry, but I've seen enough of the hard Left at work to put me off ... they are the political equivalent of the most rigid of evangelical fundamentalists.

Kinnock had the right idea.

Purge them before it's too late.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15526 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Given that I strongly suspect Momentum members of covert collaboration with the Conservatives in a local by-election for local party-political reasons, I'm afraid I don't have a great deal of faith in the 'purity' of their position ...

Politics makes strange bedfellows.

Fascinating, I'd very much like to hear more about this if it is at all possible. I can't imagine a circumstance where Momentum Labour people collaborate with a Tory - that's quite mind-bending.
I'm happy to deal with this by PM rather than on a public forum. It surprised me too. Nothing would surprise me now.

Believe you me, these people are so Machiavellian they will stop at nothing. Nothing.

I'm not in the Labour Party but if I were I'd be purging them. Kinnock had it right.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15526 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109

 - Posted      Profile for Garden Hermit     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I know that no Party Pamphlet or Manifesto is any other than a 'wish List' as circumstances often force a complete change of direction. So I look at my Candidates as I would as if I a Felon. Who would I like to be my Brief if I am up before the Judge ? Which one is best going to get me off the charge? Who is the most capable ? I don't have to like them or agree with their approach. All I want is the most capable person possible.
Posts: 1410 | From: Reading UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

 - Posted      Profile for Rosa Winkel   Author's homepage   Email Rosa Winkel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yeah, that 2% of new party members are like a yeast that will grow and grow. Before we know it, we'll have gulags all over the place.

Give me a hard-left-winger over someone who abstained on the Welfare Bill of 2015 (like all of the candidates in the 2015 apart from Corbyn) or the likes of Farron who voted for raising tuition fees, introducing child benefit means testing, raising debt; introducing the bedroom tax and the benefits cap; cut tax for millionaires and a massive attack on social services.

But no, let's talk about a miniscule group who have no influence whatsoever on Labour policy.

--------------------
The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

Posts: 3266 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
AIUI, the reason why Trotskyists were so destructive in the '70s and '80s was because they used to deliberately make impossible demands, precisely because the impossibility of those demands demonstrated the incapacity of the system to produce real change.

Whereas AFAICT, most members of Momentum genuinely believe that what they want to achieve can be achieved through the Labour Party with Mr Corbyn as leader.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7178 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549

 - Posted      Profile for Dafyd   Email Dafyd   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Give me a hard-left-winger over someone who abstained on the Welfare Bill of 2015 (like all of the candidates in the 2015 apart from Corbyn)

They voted to amend out all the objectionable bits of the Bill. Once the amendments had been voted down they abstained because there were positive bits of the Bill and they didn't want Osborne smirking that they'd voted against the positive bits every time they came up for the next five years.
You might or might not think that was the right strategy. But it's not the case that they meekly rolled over.

On the other hand when the amendment to grant citizenship rights to EU nationals was defeated many of them just voted through the Brexit Bill anyway. So you could get them for that. Except of course they did so because Corbyn decided that was a good time to impose a three line whip in advance. It's one thing to sacrifice competence for principles. Corbyn managed to spectacularly sacrifice both.

--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10420 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No, it's nothing about gulags or anything of the kind. Common decency wouldn't be too much to ask, though, would it?

In another context I'm sure they'd have been all sweetness and light ... but there is something toxic about Momentum, in the same way as there is something quite toxic about religious fundamentalism.

Acknowledging as much doesn't let any of the others off the hook ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15526 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

In another context I'm sure they'd have been all sweetness and light ... but there is something toxic about Momentum, in the same way as there is something quite toxic about religious fundamentalism.

In general I've not had the same experience as you - at least among the newer members of momentum. Some of the older members are the remnants of former Trotsykite groups and some are fairly unpleasant, but about on par with some of the younger conservative activists I know (aka the Lynton Crosby tendency).
Posts: 3877 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Party member here.

Nah, he's not talking for me.

Is he talking for any party member here?

Yes

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23075 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I've met Corbyn: first when he was my local councillor (truly dreadful, everything, but everything, was related to the class struggle)

That's because virtually everything is so related.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23075 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
@Chris Stiles. Sure. I'd make no distinction between toxic young Tory activists and toxic young Momentum ones.

They are equally toxic.

The issue is less one of ideology and more an issue of fundamentalist zealotry and toxicity.

My sympathies lie leftwards but that doesn't mean I let one form of toxicity off the hook and not another.

Young Tories - toxic.

Momentum - toxic.

Political and religious fundamentalism - toxic.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15526 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320

 - Posted      Profile for PaulTH*   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Today it emerges that Len McCluskey's rival for the leadership of the Unite union, Gerard Coyne, has been suspended as a union official while the union decides if he brought it into disrepute by speaking out against McClusky. It's said that the count for the leadership is too close to call. Bearing in mind that McClusky is Jeremy Corbyn's biggest financial backer, while Coyne favours Labour's Deputy Tom Watson, do we detect that the Left is trying to prevent Coyne from taking over the union even if he wins the ballot?

Last year when Gerard Coyne indicated that he was considering standing against McCluskey he was disciplined by the party for speaking at an event organised by Labour MP's Chuka Ununna and Tristram Hunt. As both Umunna and Hunt had refused to serve in Corby's shadow cabinet, Coyne was given a written warning that his conduct was as odds "with Unite's political vision." Being at odds with the hard left of McCluskey, who wants to ally Unite with Momentum rather than the Labour Party, doesn't necessarily equate with being at odds with the ordinary membership of the Union. If Coyne wins the ballot and is prevented from taking up his position by this leftie inspired skulduggery, it will reveal how dangerous Labour is unless it can free itself from the likes of McCluskey and Momentum.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul

Posts: 6383 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

 - Posted      Profile for Penny S     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't hold much brief for Labour Progress group as manifested in Lambeth either. Not only do they ignore the public in deciding to close libraries and lease the buildings to gyms, they do so by sending photos of kittens to the people who communicate with them.

The Momentum lot there seem to be more reasonable.

Labour in Southwark seem to be much more normal. (Despite that ridiculous bridge.)

Posts: 5776 | Registered: May 2009  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
As both Umunna and Hunt had refused to serve in Corby's shadow cabinet, Coyne was given a written warning that his conduct was as odds "with Unite's political vision."

Unite is a Trade Union. Surely its "political vision" must be the political vision of its members, and not the political vision of Len McCluskey.

Mr. Coyne and Mr. McCluskey have different ideas about what the union should do. Is this not why we have elections - so that each man can present his platform, and the membership can choose between them?

Right now I do see someone bringing Unite into disrepute, but it's not Mr. Coyne.

Posts: 4897 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@Chris Stiles. Sure. I'd make no distinction between toxic young Tory activists and toxic young Momentum ones.

Absolutely, except I would draw a distinction between individuals and the movement. I don't think Momentum as a movement is intrinsically toxic in the way you seem to describe - completely agree on a few individuals within it.
Posts: 3877 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Cod
Shipmate
# 2643

 - Posted      Profile for Cod     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
EU leader: UK would be welcomed back if voters overturn Brexit

quote:
Speaking after a meeting with the prime minister in Downing Street, Antonio Tajani insisted that her triggering of the departure process last month could be reversed easily by the remaining EU members if there was a change of UK government after the general election, and that it would not even require a court case.
So it looks like the other 27 states would be happy. Now, if all Remainers vote for the Lib Dems..

--------------------
"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

Posts: 4225 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And, if the Lib Dems were to actually want to reverse Brexit

--------------------
All I want for Christmas is EU

Posts: 32187 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cod
Shipmate
# 2643

 - Posted      Profile for Cod     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I suspect they might with a bit of voter momentum.

(Not that I see the LDs getting 48%, but it's interesting to speculate).

--------------------
"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

Posts: 4225 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549

 - Posted      Profile for Dafyd   Email Dafyd   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
And, if the Lib Dems were to actually want to reverse Brexit

I suppose that the Lib Dems found themselves in power they might decide to take it as a mandate to do so. Once they've stopped pinching themselves that is. If your party isn't composed of xenophobic gits why would you want the economic consequences of leaving to happen on your watch?

[ 20. April 2017, 19:10: Message edited by: Dafyd ]

--------------------
we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

Posts: 10420 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Absolutely, except I would draw a distinction between individuals and the movement. I don't think Momentum as a movement is intrinsically toxic in the way you seem to describe - completely agree on a few individuals within it.

Agreed. Plus I've found way more toxic people on the right of the Labour party than on the left. The shit flinging by Progress and their fellow travellers has been a thing to behold over the last 2 years.

[ 20. April 2017, 19:32: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]

Posts: 2858 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

 - Posted      Profile for balaam   Author's homepage   Email balaam   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
quote:
Speaking after a meeting with the prime minister in Downing Street, Antonio Tajani insisted that her triggering of the departure process last month could be reversed easily by the remaining EU members if there was a change of UK government after the general election, and that it would not even require a court case.
So it looks like the other 27 states would be happy. Now, if all Remainers vote for the Lib Dems..
It was never down to the British as to whether we leave. Article 50 nitwithstanding if the 27 say we stay then we stay. That has always been the bottom line. The Brexit vote was about a desire to leave, but it was never our decision, the decision as to whether we leave has always been with the EU members, and nowhere else.

--------------------
Fearfully and wonderfully mad
Love the dinner, hate the din.
ن
blog

Posts: 8832 | From: Somewhere else | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
It was never down to the British as to whether we leave. Article 50 nitwithstanding if the 27 say we stay then we stay. That has always been the bottom line. The Brexit vote was about a desire to leave, but it was never our decision, the decision as to whether we leave has always been with the EU members, and nowhere else.

No, garbage. The 27 cannot force a state to remain part of the EU.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10325 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

 - Posted      Profile for balaam   Author's homepage   Email balaam   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That is the process:
Fist Article 50
Then negotiations
Finally the vote of the EU members.

That is the only vote that counts, not the referendum, not the parliamentary votes, not this June's General Election. The above are important, but the actal leave decision is made by the EU states.

--------------------
Fearfully and wonderfully mad
Love the dinner, hate the din.
ن
blog

Posts: 8832 | From: Somewhere else | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:


That is the only vote that counts, not the referendum, not the parliamentary votes, not this June's General Election. The above are important, but the actal leave decision is made by the EU states.

No, sorry that's bullshit. The EU was set up by nations which volunteered to surrender some powers for the sake of the thing which became the EU. Of course nobody can tell an independent state that they're not allowed to leave a super-national group they've volunteered to join in the first place. If that really was the case then the UK wouldn't be a nation state at all.

What the EU and European Parliament are deciding is on the "divorce" that they're prepared to offer and/or accept the UK. The UK can clearly walk away, what it can't do is do it on its own terms.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 10325 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320

 - Posted      Profile for PaulTH*   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
Now, if all Remainers vote for the Lib Dems..

I'm not speaking for my own opinion here, but I can't understand how any passionate Remainer in England could vote any other way than Lib Dem. They are the only party totally committed to reversing the decision made last June. Of course the Scots have their own option in the SNP. Lib Dem support should surge in this forthcoming election.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul

Posts: 6383 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Don't get me wrong, I've got a lot of time for young Labour Party activists I know.

But I'm not at all impressed by Momentum - or individuals within it. If what I've seen is in any way typical then they deserve to be purged.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15526 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320

 - Posted      Profile for PaulTH*   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The Labour Party will have a narrow window of opportunity following the June GE which ironically will be better the worse they do in the vote. If they totally tank, many will want Corbyn's scalp. The remaining decent MP's and party members can then get together and find a leader that they, the party and hopefully the electorate can rally around. Corbyn and his cronies were caught on the hop by the snap election in that they won't have time to deselect candidates who oppose Corbyn. But Jezza has already said that when the boundry changes come in next year, all Labour candidates will need to be reselected. If Momentum is established in charge of the local constituencies by then, the heart of the party will have been lost to the hard left, and anti-Corbiystas will be eliminated.

In the 2010 leadership contest between David Miliband and his brother Ed, the parliamentary party and the constituency parties voted for David. That's how any normal political organisation would select its leader. But it's only the rotten process of allowing the Union block votes that let in Red Ed. The Ed who reintroduced entryism and allowed the £3 Trots to choose the next leader. Come back David and save the party.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul

Posts: 6383 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

 - Posted      Profile for Rosa Winkel   Author's homepage   Email Rosa Winkel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
There are only minor parties who call themselves Trotskyist

OK perhaps Trotskyist or Trotskyite the way it was bandied about in the 1970's and 80's isn't an accurate description of movements such as Momentum, but many of its older members are survivors of Militant Tendency, which was expelled from the Labour Party in the 1980's. So let's make no mistake about who these people are and the malign influence they have in the British political system. And of course

John McDonnell makes no secret of his hero worship of Lenin, Trotsky and Mao, whose Little Red Book he's been seen to quote from in the House of Commons. I want to see a Labour Party I can vote for with the enthusiasm I had in 1997. But I would move heaven and earth to keep this shower of shit as far from power as possible even if it means voting Tory.

To get any evidence to back up the claim of your first paragraph?
Perhaps my mistake "to get" instead of "you got" confused you, and that's why you haven't answered my question.

Or perhaps you can indicate just how a maximum of 2% of members can destroy the party?

In other news, for everyone else,how many of Labour's policies do you actually disagree with?

The article says "Corbyn's policies", when in fact these are not just his.

--------------------
The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

Posts: 3266 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
... (Not that I see the LDs getting 48%, but it's interesting to speculate).

Nor, even if they get the sort of win they'd like to get, will the Conservatives get 48%, yet alone 52%. It's only ever been in the eras when there were actually or de facto only two parties that anyone has got such a proportion of the votes. Even Tony Blair in 1997, with a majority of 179 got that on only 42% of the vote.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7389 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
... In other news, for everyone else,how many of Labour's policies do you actually disagree with?

The article says "Corbyn's policies", when in fact these are not just his.

Leaving out the vague ones and the ones he hasn't really shown he would do anything credible about like 'Holding the Tories to account over Brexit', I reckon I disagree with over half of them. And I'm not a Conservative. I'd be hard pushed to say which of the Corbyn-McDonnell Labour Party or the Brexit Conservatives stands lower in my estimation.

[ 20. April 2017, 22:22: Message edited by: Enoch ]

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 7389 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
It's said that the count for the leadership is too close to call.

Really ? Said by whom ? The main source of this is Laura Kussenberg.

For the record coyne was originally nominated by 187 branches, McCluskey by 1,185. It's highly unlikely it was all that close.

Posts: 3877 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320

 - Posted      Profile for PaulTH*   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Perhaps my mistake "to get" instead of "you got" confused you, and that's why you haven't answered my question

There is plenty of evidence of the connection between Momentum and Militant and other hard left organisations associated with the Labour Party in the 1980's. I would agree with the commentator that Momentum should be proscribed. The rest of my paragraph was my personal opinion that Momentum is a malign influence on the Labour Party and British politics. I stand by that.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul

Posts: 6383 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320

 - Posted      Profile for PaulTH*   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
For the record coyne was originally nominated by 187 branches, McCluskey by 1,185. It's highly unlikely it was all that close.

Well I'll wait until the results are published before commenting on them. But that these people's block votes should have any bearing on a Labour leadership contest is an affront to democracy.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul

Posts: 6383 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

 - Posted      Profile for Leorning Cniht   Email Leorning Cniht   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:

For the record coyne was originally nominated by 187 branches, McCluskey by 1,185. It's highly unlikely it was all that close.

How do the branches choose who to nominate? Do they poll their members, or does the branch leadership pick someone?

(For the record, Jeremy Corbyn was nominated by almost nobody in the election for Labour leader, a bunch of Blairites had to be persuaded to nominate him in order to get him on the ballot, and then he won by a country mile. So if your electorate is different from the people doing the nominating, these things happen.)

Posts: 4897 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Can we stop with the ignorant bullshit about block votes? Unions haven't had a block vote in leadership elections in over two decades. If you're going to comment on Labour's internal politics at least get some bloody clue what you're talking about. The effect of the electoral college was to give union members an individual vote but to weight those of MPs and party members more heavily.
Posts: 2858 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

 - Posted      Profile for Rosa Winkel   Author's homepage   Email Rosa Winkel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Perhaps my mistake "to get" instead of "you got" confused you, and that's why you haven't answered my question

There is plenty of evidence of the connection between Momentum and Militant and other hard left organisations associated with the Labour Party in the 1980's.
Ah, the Socialist Party. I mentioned them earlier:

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
There are only minor parties who call themselves Trotskyist, one of which is the Socialist Party who as part of the Trade Unionist and Socialist Coalition which also include RMT members, who represent a bigger group.

A grand total of 92 TUSC members joined the Labour Party in 2015. That's out of 350,000 who either joined the party as members or supporters during the leadership campaign of 2015 or shortly afterwards. The TUSC entry into Labour that period represents 0.03% of Labour members and supporters.

The article you provided a link to says:

quote:
1,000 are believed to be members of other far-left parties.
Italics mine.

You'll have to do better than that to provide evidence.

Even if it was true, those 1,000 people would represent 0.52% of Momemtum members and supporters in 2016.

Did you read this article that I provided a link to , which is written by someone with experience of both Militant and Momemtum? Would you care to respond?

quote:
I would agree with the commentator that Momentum should be proscribed. The rest of my paragraph was my personal opinion that Momentum is a malign influence on the Labour Party and British politics. I stand by that.
So you'd ban a movement due to 0.52% of its members? You're hardly Abraham arguing with God here. Nah, I support democracy, myself.

With regards to Gamaliel's accusations, what he says may be true, but we haven't heard the other side here, and if Gamaliel is in an opposing party, his judgement may not be unbiased. Still, Gamaliel, are you saying that collaboration with the Tories is a bad thing? What you could do would be to provide me privately details of your claim, and I could try to contact the local Momemtum branch to find out their side of story; me as a Labour party member may be able to gain that.

Of course, even if there are individual Momemtum members who are twats, well shock horror, people can be twats, to paraphrase Romans 3:23. That says nothing about Momemtum itself.

It's interesting to see people making Labour to be just as bad or worse than the Tories, the Tories who have, through their (and Lib Dem) policies seen over 1m people needing foodbanks, a 33% rise in homelessness in England and a wave upon wave of suicide due to DWP sanctions. Fair enough if people vote Tory, I can get that, and have known sound people who do so. Just that making Labour to be as bad or as worse based upon current policy just doesn't hold.

--------------------
The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

Posts: 3266 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:

In other news, for everyone else,how many of Labour's policies do you actually disagree with?

1. My issue has always been more with his incompetence rather than his policies as such. There's no point having good ideas if you don't have the organisational skills to implement them. And if one is serious about opposing the economics of austerity, I don't see the value in supporting a bloke whom anti-austerity economists have lost confidence in.

2. If Mr Corbyn has struggled to get his message across to the media, that could be due to the well-documented problems with his media team. Or his ability to announce one policy in the morning and a different one in the afternoon. Or the inability of even his allies to articulate what he actually wants to achieve in concrete terms.

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7178 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320

 - Posted      Profile for PaulTH*   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
My issue has always been more with his incompetence rather than his policies as such.

Well I disagree with his policies as well. Pumping £500 billion into an already debt ridden economy is a complete folly which will store up untold troubles for future generations.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul

Posts: 6383 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  ...  32  33  34 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools