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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: One Atonement
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
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Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
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Originally posted by Jamat:
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Originally posted by Martin60:
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Originally posted by Jamat:
@Martin 60: Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. This is plainly stated. Jesus the MAN could only be slain in time. However, the mystery of the incarnation is unfathomable. Jesus as God obviously resided outside time. If he ducked within time's envelope from eternity for a brief 33 years and then ducked back, he was still himself.
Plainly stated by 'John' the author of the Book of Revelation yes. So? What about for the inhabitants of Arcturus and Andromeda and trillions of points beyond. Did He do it concurrently at all? Or can He only do it in series? And then there's all the other eternity of infinite universes of course.
Will the real space cadet please stand up?
Did you not see "Back to the future?"
If time is as we know, a physical property, and God exists independent of his creation, outside all physicality, then he won't be too troubled by being "slain from the foundation of the world."
Which world?
The cosmos, Martin. It's a poor translation.
Ah hah Honest! If I may call you by your first name. So for all of the worlds in the insanely huge inflated universe? 10^70 x larger than the visible universe with its 10^24 stars. Which is but one scintilla in eternity.
Whoever, whatever is behind our infinitesimal and pivotal Jesus is a tad bigger than a man.
Reality is unbelievable. And THEN there's God.
So it is official. Martin says there is a God.
What kind?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
martin60 : What kind?
The kind you can't invent? After all, he is the one who created the universe you are part of. If it is real, he must be. See Romans 1.
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The infinitesimal practically infinite universe couldn't be realler. God is. In every sense, above all minded, He's bigger. Not small. Not petty. Not incompetent. Not ineffectual.
[ 21. May 2017, 10:36: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
What's going on now? People who don't believe in PSA don't actually believe in God?
I thought this was a thread about the Atonement not whether God exists or not ... Although there are plenty who would say that God doesn't 'exist' in the way that we conceive of 'being' ...
But that's another issue.
As far as I can see everyone on this thread believes that God 'is' ...
No doubt Jamat will issue the rejoinder that even the demons do that ...
Which is fair enough, provided that we accept that that doesn't let any of us off the hook ...
But I'm puzzled as to why this thread has taken an existential turn towards the issue of God's being ...
Ah well, perhaps it's running out of steam ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I don't know, this thread has been quite useful; at least I don't feel that my thoughts about sacrifice are so crazy after all.
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arse
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The turn is to big mindedness G, which you have, your atonement narrative has. Jamat's doesn't. In the face of unbelievable realities.
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Love wins
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I don't know, this thread has been quite useful; at least I don't feel that my thoughts about sacrifice are so crazy after all.
Not just VERY good, but it looks emergent, original to me in my ignorance mr cheesy. If anyone said such before it will have been the Cappadocian Fathers, did they? Can this be new under the sun?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Gam:
quote:
I thought this was a thread about the Atonement
Technically I guess, but not the rights and wrongs. Despite the many pages I'm still none the wiser other than the 'because the Bible says so' answer.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think that IS your answer, Fletcher Christian.
Those who make PSA the central pillar of the whole thing would tell you that they do so because that's what the Bible says.
Not because that's what they believe the Bible says ...
But it's what the Bible says.
There. Look. It's in black and white.
If you can't see it then there must be something wrong with you.
That's what the argument boils down to.
If you don't believe in PSA, you don't believe the Bible. End of.
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I don't know, this thread has been quite useful; at least I don't feel that my thoughts about sacrifice are so crazy after all.
Incidentally, I've just been reading Rob Bell's new book What is the Bible , which has pretty much the same take on sacrifice.
And there was I, thinking I was being original ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ 22. May 2017, 15:52: Message edited by: Jolly Jape ]
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think that IS your answer, Fletcher Christian.
Those who make PSA the central pillar of the whole thing would tell you that they do so because that's what the Bible says.
Not because that's what they believe the Bible says ...
But it's what the Bible says.
There. Look. It's in black and white.
If you can't see it then there must be something wrong with you.
That's what the argument boils down to.
If you don't believe in PSA, you don't believe the Bible. End of.
There, feel better? You have successfully convinced yourself that the SOF is a haven of sanity in a theological wilderness.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What's going on now? People who don't believe in PSA don't actually believe in God?
Jamat has said or implied this for as long as he's been debating on PSA threads. You've just now noticed?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
No, I don't feel better, Jamat.
Even though the sanity is on this side of the PC screen and not yours.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What's going on now? People who don't believe in PSA don't actually believe in God?
Jamat has said or implied this for as long as he's been debating on PSA threads. You've just now noticed?
Of course I've noticed, Mousethief.
I was just letting him know I'd noticed - in a rather sarcastic way. Which he seems to have taken as a compliment.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So Jamat, the children murdered in Manchester last night, are they safe in the arms of Jesus even though none of them knew Him? But their dead responsible adults have already been welcomed to Hell and are settling in on the fires? Or We Just Don't Know?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
There, feel better? You have successfully convinced yourself that the SOF is a haven of sanity in a theological wilderness.
It's clearly a haven in at least one sense - it is a place where views which are not considered kosher by the self-appointed guardians of the faith* can be aired and discussed.
But it clearly isn't in the sense you're implying. Given the wide diversity of views and thoughts and ideas here, it is highly unlikely that someone would find sanity. That'd be like someone who was confused standing in a crowded bar having random conversations with people.
If you want sanity, go to a library.
*whoever they are
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arse
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, but in going to a library bear in mind that whatever you pick up off the shelves and read is subject to interpretation of some form or other and reflects a 'tradition' of some kind - in genre, in form, in content ...
That way lies sanity.
Picking books off shelves, even sacred ones, and expecting the meaning to tumble off the page ready formed and incontrovertible without any context or interpretative framework isn't sanity ...
It's self-delusion.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What's going on now? People who don't believe in PSA don't actually believe in God?
Jamat has said or implied this for as long as he's been debating on PSA threads. You've just now noticed?
This is untrue. I do not think anyone's relationship with the Lord is measured in terms of a theological model or denominational affiliation or indeed, anything that is outwardly measurable. I actually believe God has his people in every corner of the world.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, but equally, can't you see how it would be easy to draw the kind of conclusion Mousethief has drawn from the sort of things you post?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure, but equally, can't you see how it would be easy to draw the kind of conclusion Mousethief has drawn from the sort of things you post?
Gamaliel, "the world will construe according to its wits, this court must construe, according to the the law."
(A Man for all Seasons by Robert Bolt)
[ 24. May 2017, 00:18: Message edited by: Jamat ]
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
So the speaker has no responsibility whatsoever for how people perceive what they say? You feel that everybody always at all times precisely and accurately gets across what they mean, without being fuzzy or confusing or ambiguous or accidentally misleading?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
So the speaker has no responsibility whatsoever for how people perceive what they say? You feel that everybody always at all times precisely and accurately gets across what they mean, without being fuzzy or confusing or ambiguous or accidentally misleading?
Well,that sounds like a question for Martin 60.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Don't flatter yourself.
Martin60's posts can be obscure.
Yours can be obscurantist.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
his is untrue. I do not think anyone's relationship with the Lord is measured in terms of a theological model or denominational affiliation or indeed, anything that is outwardly measurable. I actually believe God has his people in every corner of the world.
I see. So the posts you made above where you questioned other people's salvation were what? Pious thoughts which were meant to be challenging but not directed at anyone in particular?
A thought that occurred to me last night was that some people who believe in PSA are going to get a nasty shock when they meet the Lord and he turns out to be a lot nicer and a lot more Christ-like than they're expecting.
He is faithful and just and kind and gentle, so I'm sure he is going to be able to heal all of us. But I can't help thinking that process is going to be a lot more painful for those who think that God is full of righteous anger than those who think he is full of love.
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arse
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What's going on now? People who don't believe in PSA don't actually believe in God?
Jamat has said or implied this for as long as he's been debating on PSA threads. You've just now noticed?
This is untrue. I do not think anyone's relationship with the Lord is measured in terms of a theological model or denominational affiliation or indeed, anything that is outwardly measurable. I actually believe God has his people in every corner of the world.
Including Manchester?
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Love wins
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What's going on now? People who don't believe in PSA don't actually believe in God?
Jamat has said or implied this for as long as he's been debating on PSA threads. You've just now noticed?
This is untrue. I do not think anyone's relationship with the Lord is measured in terms of a theological model or denominational affiliation or indeed, anything that is outwardly measurable. I actually believe God has his people in every corner of the world.
Including Manchester?
Martin I am not sure of your point here. I shudder to think what it might be.
Mr Cheesy: what can I say? If you confess Christ as Lord you are saved; if you do not you've made a dumb eternal choice. One thing though that springs to mind is the message of John the Baptist to the Pharisees.."You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come". There is wrath! The Jesus who returns to earth, does so as an avenger not as a saviour. The time for salvation is now while the door is open still and the bridegroom absent still. You reinvent him as a cosmic cuddle toy at your peril and not everyone who says they are a believer actually is.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Mr Cheesy: what can I say? If you confess Christ as Lord you are saved;
Flatly contradicted by Matthew 25, Matthew 7:21 and elsewhere. You really ought to read the bible, you might learn something.
Also, by the way, almost every denomination that isn't Sandemanian.
quote:
if you do not you've made a dumb eternal choice. One thing though that springs to mind is the message of John the Baptist to the Pharisees.."You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come". There is wrath! The Jesus who returns to earth, does so as an avenger not as a saviour.
Yeah, ok whatever. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him - as the scriptures say.
quote:
The time for salvation is now while the door is open still and the bridegroom absent still. You reinvent him as a cosmic cuddle toy at your peril and not everyone who says they are a believer actually is.
Hahaha. You're a funny chap.
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arse
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
I'm a John 3:17 man, too, mr cheesy!
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Jamat quote:
One thing though that springs to mind is the message of John the Baptist to the Pharisees.."You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come". There is wrath! The Jesus who returns to earth, does so as an avenger not as a saviour.
A sort of fair point. What interests me about this sort of condemnation in the gospels, especially the examples attributed to Jesus, however, is the precision and narrowness of the aim. They do not appear to be generally directed but at those who opposed his ministry, the religious establishment of Pharisees, Sadducees, and temple priests. This is very different from the universal aim of God's wrath in Romans 1-2.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What's going on now? People who don't believe in PSA don't actually believe in God?
Jamat has said or implied this for as long as he's been debating on PSA threads. You've just now noticed?
This is untrue. I do not think anyone's relationship with the Lord is measured in terms of a theological model or denominational affiliation or indeed, anything that is outwardly measurable. I actually believe God has his people in every corner of the world.
Including Manchester?
Martin I am not sure of your point here. I shudder to think what it might be.
Mr Cheesy: what can I say? If you confess Christ as Lord you are saved; if you do not you've made a dumb eternal choice. One thing though that springs to mind is the message of John the Baptist to the Pharisees.."You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come". There is wrath! The Jesus who returns to earth, does so as an avenger not as a saviour. The time for salvation is now while the door is open still and the bridegroom absent still. You reinvent him as a cosmic cuddle toy at your peril and not everyone who says they are a believer actually is.
You're in good company. The demons shudder.
As none of the 22 victims and the deranged bomber had confessed Christ as Lord; they freely, fully informedly chose not to; they are being shakily poked up the bum with red hot pitchforks by the former. Including the little eight year old girl? Although being of Greek heritage she may well be Orthodox and they're OK? Stinking of brimstone still of course.
[ 24. May 2017, 08:46: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
As none of the 22 victims and the deranged bomber had confessed Christ as Lord; they freely, fully informedly chose not to; they are being shakily poked up the bum with red hot pitchforks by the former. Including the little eight year old girl? Although being of Greek heritage she may well be Orthodox and they're OK? Stinking of brimstone still of course.
Martin, you might want to cool down a bit. Jamat isn't claiming to be able to look into the hearts of the victims. This line of attack is really unhelpful, IMO.
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arse
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I hear what you say mr cheesy. You have a better heart than mine. But I'd like to hear what he says in his darkest comic demonic damnationism. I'd like to see him repudiate that.
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Love wins
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I hear what you say mr cheesy. You have a better heart than mine. But I'd like to hear what he says in his darkest comic demonic damnationism. I'd like to see him repudiate that.
I'm sorry, I fail to understand how he'd need to say anything beyond that he trusts God will judge each heart fairly.
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arse
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You're a good advocate. I've got a nasty prosecutorial side did you know? If Jamat's being all Elizabeth I that's progress. But I interpolate that there were none of God's people murdered in Manchester two nights ago, none in the wonderful multi-ethne community response.
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Love wins
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
But I interpolate that there were none of God's people murdered in Manchester two nights ago, none in the wonderful multi-ethne community response.
OK so let's assume that's correct and that they're all now standing before the judgement seat. Are they in the redeemers book of life? No, off you go to hell.
It seems a bit unfair I suppose, but how is it any different to those who die in any other way? These are people over the age of reason, they've made a choice and they've chosen hell.
End of story.
I don't believe this is the chain of events, but I can't see how the method of death is somehow a dealbreaker as to the logic of this position.
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arse
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Och no, it's just 'opportune'. Death scythes us and we burn or forget the vast majority burned in bliss.
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Love wins
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So Jamat, the children murdered in Manchester last night, are they safe in the arms of Jesus even though none of them knew Him? But their dead responsible adults have already been welcomed to Hell and are settling in on the fires? Or We Just Don't Know?
I'm interested in where that bomber has gone.
Is he safe in the arms of a love-wins-universalist-Jesus?
Or has the wrath of God actually come into play and the murderous, treacherous, vicious fool is now alone in hell not far from, but not in communication with, Ian Brady?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Is he safe in the arms of a love-wins-universalist-Jesus?
Or has the wrath of God actually come into play and the murderous, treacherous, vicious fool is now alone in hell not far from, but not in communication with, Ian Brady?
Dunno, but I suspect he's having a rather awkward time in Purgatory.
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arse
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Is he safe in the arms of a love-wins-universalist-Jesus?
Or has the wrath of God actually come into play and the murderous, treacherous, vicious fool is now alone in hell not far from, but not in communication with, Ian Brady?
Dunno, but I suspect he's having a rather awkward time in Purgatory.
Isn't Purgatory for the baptised, rather than the heathen?
I'm waiting fir someone to say that ultimately this 'poor man' will indeed be welcomed into Heaven and all will be well.
I would then like the proposer of that scenario to tell it to the families of the innocent.
As far as where are those children now, I think we have the words of Jesus - for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
[ 24. May 2017, 18:58: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Isn't Purgatory for the baptised, rather than the heathen?
No idea. I'm not a RC, I have no developed theology of Purgatory. But a space where people are redeemed for as long as it takes before being admitted to heaven makes more sense to me than never-ending suffering in a hell.
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arse
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Isn't Purgatory for the baptised, rather than the heathen?
No idea. I'm not a RC, I have no developed theology of Purgatory. But a space where people are redeemed for as long as it takes before being admitted to heaven makes more sense to me than never-ending suffering in a hell.
Indeed, but it makes one wonder why there is no mention of it in Scripture.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Indeed, but it makes one wonder why there is no mention of it in Scripture.
Mm. well there is also Hades as well as Heaven and Hell "in scripture". Do you believe in that?
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arse
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Indeed, but it makes one wonder why there is no mention of it in Scripture.
Mm. well there is also Hades as well as Heaven and Hell "in scripture". Do you believe in that?
Hades is the place of the dead. It is divided into 'Torment' and the Bosom of Abraham'. It is the place Jesus went to to announce the completion of redemption. It is from here that Jesus 'took captivity captive' and took the saints to be with himself.
Hades now keeps the unredeemed dead and at the judgment, 'death and Hades' will give up their dead and they will stand before God before following the devil and his angels into Hell.
There is nobody in Hell yet.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
And also Jesus' double promise of a MORE bearable judgement for mythical depraved sexually violent oppressors of the poor. That's in the Bible. Twice.
[ 24. May 2017, 19:25: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
How about the Eastern Christian view that, if God is a 'consuming fire' then his burning presence is bliss to those who love him and long for his appearing, but scorching to those who reject him.orvsre indifferent to him?
Or is that heading beyond this thread?
Obviously, the Jews of Jesus's day had different views of the after-life - and the Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection of course ...
Arguably, what we see in the NT is an amalgamation of Jewish and Hellenistic concepts of these things - although it is a lot more 'corporeal' of course than the more disembodied pure Hellenistic approach - all the fluffy white clouds and such ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Aijalon
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# 18777
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think that IS your answer, Fletcher Christian.
Those who make PSA the central pillar of the whole thing would tell you that they do so because that's what the Bible says.
Not because that's what they believe the Bible says ...
But it's what the Bible says.
There. Look. It's in black and white.
If you can't see it then there must be something wrong with you.
That's what the argument boils down to.
If you don't believe in PSA, you don't believe the Bible. End of.
That does seem to sum it up pretty well.
I tend to think of Atonement though in a more Hebrew sense than I used to (I hope) in as much as I can fathom the Day of Atonement anyway.
So the High Priest would annually atone for the sins, by slaying a lamb, and also sending away a goat....
So where did the sin go? On the lamb? or on the goat?
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God gave you free will so you could give it back.
Posts: 200 | From: Kansas City | Registered: May 2017
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Indeed, but it makes one wonder why there is no mention of it in Scripture.
Mm. well there is also Hades as well as Heaven and Hell "in scripture". Do you believe in that?
Hades is the place of the dead. It is divided into 'Torment' and the Bosom of Abraham'. It is the place Jesus went to to announce the completion of redemption. It is from here that Jesus 'took captivity captive' and took the saints to be with himself.
Hades now keeps the unredeemed dead and at the judgment, 'death and Hades' will give up their dead and they will stand before God before following the devil and his angels into Hell.
There is nobody in Hell yet.
Yeah, but you just wait! Wah HOO!
I'll be there with Salman Abedi. Much more preferable company than those projecting their Bronze Age inadequacies now. To see his salvation, and Brady's, to see love win him, them. To see them reconciled with their victims including the grieving. It can't get better than that.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
One could argue that the Parable of The Rich Man and Lazarus suggests that people are in Heaven or Hell right now, Mudfrog.
But then, I tend not to see these things in temporal terms. If God is 'outside of time' then there must be some kind of 'eternal now' ...
On the scapegoat thing, Aijalon, I think there have been threads on that here before now and it has been alluded to earlier on this one.
The issue of course, is whether the goat was 'punished' or killed - some say yes, others no - or simply allowed to wander off ...
On the summary I made, that was meant to be a caricature of a particular tightly-focused mindset rather than a creedal statement as such.
In case you were wondering ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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agingjb
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# 16555
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Posted
"Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing."
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Refraction Villanelles
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