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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: One Atonement
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Is he safe in the arms of a love-wins-universalist-Jesus?
Or has the wrath of God actually come into play and the murderous, treacherous, vicious fool is now alone in hell not far from, but not in communication with, Ian Brady?
Dunno, but I suspect he's having a rather awkward time in Purgatory.
Isn't Purgatory for the baptised, rather than the heathen?
I'm waiting fir someone to say that ultimately this 'poor man' will indeed be welcomed into Heaven and all will be well.
Wait no longer. That is exactly what I hope for. It's this thing called "redemption" that I believe in. I think it would be very difficult for him. It may be more than he can bear to do. But I hope he can do it, because, you know, I like that bit in the Bible about "not wanting anyone to perish". I think anyone means anyone here.
quote:
I would then like the proposer of that scenario to tell it to the families of the innocent.
OK. But you first, tell the relatives of recently deceased non-believers that their loved ones, if they didn't "accept Jesus" before their death, will go to Hell.
quote:
As far as where are those children now, I think we have the words of Jesus - for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
What about the teenagers? The adults? When are you old enough to burn for all eternity for not believing the right things?
[ 24. May 2017, 20:20: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Aijalon
Shipmate
# 18777
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Posted
Agreed, I didn't take it as a creed per se. It does seem to be the sentiment of many evangelicals in my experience.
As to the goat.... I guess I would simply say that if we apply the imagery and actions of the DoA as an example of God's way of dealing with our sin, then PSA alone tends to fall short of being the "core" of what is means to have our sins washed away.
Perhaps the reason that people ascribe to PSA as central dogma is related accidentally to a pagan view of God as mainly being angry and/or Catholic policies on penance.
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God gave you free will so you could give it back.
Posts: 200 | From: Kansas City | Registered: May 2017
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, as PSA appears to be an exclusively Western emphasis, then it will have its roots in Roman Catholicism to some extent - although the way Augustine, Anselm and Aquinas understood the atonement wouldn't have been identical to contemporary evangelical Protestants.
Come to think of it, the way Luther and Calvin understood it wasn't identical to contemporary evangelicals either - although they obviously prepared the ground for later developments in Protestant theology.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Indeed, but it makes one wonder why there is no mention of it in Scripture.
Mm. well there is also Hades as well as Heaven and Hell "in scripture". Do you believe in that?
Hades is the place of the dead. It is divided into 'Torment' and the Bosom of Abraham'. It is the place Jesus went to to announce the completion of redemption. It is from here that Jesus 'took captivity captive' and took the saints to be with himself.
Hades now keeps the unredeemed dead and at the judgment, 'death and Hades' will give up their dead and they will stand before God before following the devil and his angels into Hell.
There is nobody in Hell yet.
The only allegory in the NT is the literal truth of what happens when we die?
Riiiiiight.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by agingjb:
"Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing."
Once I've paid up, can I come out? Or is my tab infinite?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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agingjb
Shipmate
# 16555
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by agingjb:
"Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing."
Once I've paid up, can I come out? Or is my tab infinite?
Who knows? We get different stories.
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Refraction Villanelles
Posts: 464 | From: Southern England | Registered: Jul 2011
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
One could argue that the Parable of The Rich Man and Lazarus suggests that people are in Heaven or Hell right now, Mudfrog.
quote:
Mr Cheesy: Flatly contradicted by Matthew 25, Matthew 7:21 and elsewhere. You really ought to read the bible, you might learn something.
The trouble is Matt 7:21 more supports me than you. Matt 25? well where are the virgins with no oil? Outer darkness? Where or what is that?
Gamaliel: Mudfrog rightly suggests that the unrighteous dead are in Hades (or Hebrew Sheol) which I believe is defined as 'waiting place' pending the judgement which occurs at the end of the age.
Martin 60: You seem to allow everything conservative to be defined by the cultic oneness Pentecostal movement you rightly came out of. That is a bit dim don't you think for a man of your vast knowledge and experience.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
The trouble is Matt 7:21 more supports me than you. Matt 25? well where are the virgins with no oil? Outer darkness? Where or what is that?
Sheep and the goats.
Kinda pointless saying anything to you, I recognise, because you really don't know what it is that you're talking about.
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arse
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Aijalon
Shipmate
# 18777
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Posted
As to when Samuel was called "up" to talk to Saul, where did he come from?
Would that be the place where Jesus went and "witnessed" to souls in prison Peter talks about?
"Is the tab infinite"? Yes. I think the point there is that you CANNOT pay back the debt, so you don't get out.
As to Matt 7. I think the payment there is an allegorical one.
Same thing in Matt 25, the virgins parable allegory applies to the state of affairs on earth just before Jesus Christ steps back on to the scene. The talents parable then tells of after Jesus Christ has been ruling the world a while, and then starts to double check on progress of things.
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God gave you free will so you could give it back.
Posts: 200 | From: Kansas City | Registered: May 2017
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Mr Cheesy: kinda pointless saying anything to you, I recognise, because you really don't know what it is that you're talking about.
The wise and foolish verging are of course in Matt 25 but Sheep and goat NATIONS?This refers to the judgement of the nations at the end of the age. The goat nations will not continue in the millennium kingdom because they refused to have compassion on his brethren. Who are these? The Jews. You might want to let that sink in a bit. Sure there is an application to the church probably, but Jesus was actually Jewish.
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
How about the Eastern Christian view that, if God is a 'consuming fire' then his burning presence is bliss to those who love him and long for his appearing, but scorching to those who reject him.orvsre indifferent to him?
Or is that heading beyond this thread?
Obviously, the Jews of Jesus's day had different views of the after-life - and the Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection of course ...
Arguably, what we see in the NT is an amalgamation of Jewish and Hellenistic concepts of these things - although it is a lot more 'corporeal' of course than the more disembodied pure Hellenistic approach - all the fluffy white clouds and such ...
Well indeed, the Jews had a few differing views to Jesus - and he corrected them.
As for the Sadduccees, no they didn't believe in the resurrection; that's why they were sad, you see...
My coat is already on...
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Is he safe in the arms of a love-wins-universalist-Jesus?
Or has the wrath of God actually come into play and the murderous, treacherous, vicious fool is now alone in hell not far from, but not in communication with, Ian Brady?
Dunno, but I suspect he's having a rather awkward time in Purgatory.
Isn't Purgatory for the baptised, rather than the heathen?
I'm waiting fir someone to say that ultimately this 'poor man' will indeed be welcomed into Heaven and all will be well.
Wait no longer. That is exactly what I hope for. It's this thing called "redemption" that I believe in. I think it would be very difficult for him. It may be more than he can bear to do. But I hope he can do it, because, you know, I like that bit in the Bible about "not wanting anyone to perish". I think anyone means anyone here.
quote:
I would then like the proposer of that scenario to tell it to the families of the innocent.
OK. But you first, tell the relatives of recently deceased non-believers that their loved ones, if they didn't "accept Jesus" before their death, will go to Hell.
quote:
As far as where are those children now, I think we have the words of Jesus - for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
What about the teenagers? The adults? When are you old enough to burn for all eternity for not believing the right things?
Salvationist doctrine states:
We believe in te immortality of the soul; in the resurrection of the body; in the general judgment at the end of the world; in the eternal happiness of the righteous; and in the endless punishment of the wicked.
I guess it all depends on one's definition of 'righteous' and 'wicked.'
BTW, I don't believe in hellfire.
Whatever Hell is, I do not believe that it's a fiery furnace. That has much to do with medieval Catholicism.
I believe the fire is a metaphor, a symbol.
Beyond that, I will not go.
[ 24. May 2017, 22:19: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The judgement might be at the end of the age, Jamat, but as far as those who have died are concerned the Judgement is NOW ...
That's what I'm driving at. God is outside of time. So if you or I died 30 years apart, say, as far as each of us were concerned we'd both be entering eternity simultaneously.
How any of this fits with prayers for the dead or the invocation of the prayers of the Saints I don't know ...
I was surprised to find when I visited a synagogue that the Jews there had weekly prayers for the dead - but whether this was simply a memorial thing, I don't know.
I don't tend to fillet the passages about the age to come or heaven and hell etc up into nice neat dispensationalist packages as Mudfrog and yourself tend to do. That seems completely pointless to meet, but there we go ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
There's a lot we don't understand, of course. The wierd thing about the bodies of departed saints being resurrected at the Resurrection of Christ, for instance ... Where Lazarus was,as it were, when Jesus raised him from the dead ...
Sure, there are tantalising glimpses but I'm wary of all attempts to over systematise what we can legitimately glean from these references.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The judgement might be at the end of the age, Jamat, but as far as those who have died are concerned the Judgement is NOW ...
That's what I'm driving at. God is outside of time. So if you or I died 30 years apart, say, as far as each of us were concerned we'd both be entering eternity simultaneously.
How any of this fits with prayers for the dead or the invocation of the prayers of the Saints I don't know ...
I was surprised to find when I visited a synagogue that the Jews there had weekly prayers for the dead - but whether this was simply a memorial thing, I don't know.
I don't tend to fillet the passages about the age to come or heaven and hell etc up into nice neat dispensationalist packages as Mudfrog and yourself tend to do. That seems completely pointless to meet, but there we go ...
Well that might explain why you are confused.
The dead in Christ must be with him in heaven since they will accompany him when he returns. The others are in a holding pen and awaiting judgement. This is Hades in NT, Sheol in the OT. Luke 16, the narrative of the rich man and the beggar suggests that Hades is compartmentalised into separate places for the righteous and unrighteous souls. Interestingly, the story refers to the rich man telling Abraham he is tormented in this flame. The other word for hell in the NT is gehenna, the lake of fire and as Mudfrog says, no human is currently there as the judgement has not occurred yet.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
"Is the tab infinite"? Yes. I think the point there is that you CANNOT pay back the debt, so you don't get out.
It's really hard to see how I, a finite person, in a finite amount of time, can run up an infinite tab.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Karl, liberal backslider: When are you old enough to burn for all eternity for not believing the right things
No one believes anyone burns for not believing the right things.
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Is he safe in the arms of a love-wins-universalist-Jesus?
Or has the wrath of God actually come into play and the murderous, treacherous, vicious fool is now alone in hell not far from, but not in communication with, Ian Brady?
Dunno, but I suspect he's having a rather awkward time in Purgatory.
Isn't Purgatory for the baptised, rather than the heathen?
I'm waiting fir someone to say that ultimately this 'poor man' will indeed be welcomed into Heaven and all will be well.
Wait no longer. That is exactly what I hope for. It's this thing called "redemption" that I believe in. I think it would be very difficult for him. It may be more than he can bear to do. But I hope he can do it, because, you know, I like that bit in the Bible about "not wanting anyone to perish". I think anyone means anyone here.
quote:
I would then like the proposer of that scenario to tell it to the families of the innocent.
OK. But you first, tell the relatives of recently deceased non-believers that their loved ones, if they didn't "accept Jesus" before their death, will go to Hell.
quote:
As far as where are those children now, I think we have the words of Jesus - for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
What about the teenagers? The adults? When are you old enough to burn for all eternity for not believing the right things?
Salvationist doctrine states:
We believe in te immortality of the soul; in the resurrection of the body; in the general judgment at the end of the world; in the eternal happiness of the righteous; and in the endless punishment of the wicked.
I guess it all depends on one's definition of 'righteous' and 'wicked.'
BTW, I don't believe in hellfire.
Whatever Hell is, I do not believe that it's a fiery furnace. That has much to do with medieval Catholicism.
I believe the fire is a metaphor, a symbol.
Beyond that, I will not go.
As I'm righteous in Christ my eternal unhappiness at the punishment of the wicked means I'm incorrigibly wicked too. Do the righteous all get lobotomized so that the endless punishment of the wicked makes them happy? Seems to have started already.
[ 25. May 2017, 06:48: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Karl, liberal backslider: When are you old enough to burn for all eternity for not believing the right things
No one believes anyone burns for not believing the right things.
Not as such no. But traditional Evangelical belief boils down to believers=saved, unbelievers=damned.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
The wise and foolish verging are of course in Matt 25 but Sheep and goat NATIONS?This refers to the judgement of the nations at the end of the age.
Humbug. There are no nations in Christ.
quote:
The goat nations will not continue in the millennium kingdom because they refused to have compassion on his brethren. Who are these? The Jews.
That's the craziest explanation of that passage that I've ever heard.
quote:
You might want to let that sink in a bit. Sure there is an application to the church probably, but Jesus was actually Jewish.
This is not only wrong, it is quite irrelevant. The passage makes it abundantly clear that not all those who confess or recognise the Lord as Lord will be welcomed in. So the idea that one simply has to confess Jesus is Lord is disproven by the text itself.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Karl, liberal backslider: When are you old enough to burn for all eternity for not believing the right things
No one believes anyone burns for not believing the right things.
Not as such no. But traditional Evangelical belief boils down to believers=saved, unbelievers=damned.
I'm sorry? 'Traditional evangelical belief'?
I think the Catholic church got there before any 16th century-onwards evangelical!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Karl, liberal backslider: When are you old enough to burn for all eternity for not believing the right things
No one believes anyone burns for not believing the right things.
You're all right then.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I'm sorry? 'Traditional evangelical belief'?
I think the Catholic church got there before any 16th century-onwards evangelical!
True, but in a lot of ways the Evangelicals kept a lot of the worst bits of the Catholic practice without also taking the bits which were a lot more generous.
Which made a very lopsided belief system.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
The wise and foolish verging are of course in Matt 25 but Sheep and goat NATIONS?This refers to the judgement of the nations at the end of the age.
Humbug. There are no nations in Christ.
quote:
The goat nations will not continue in the millennium kingdom because they refused to have compassion on his brethren. Who are these? The Jews.
That's the craziest explanation of that passage that I've ever heard.
quote:
You might want to let that sink in a bit. Sure there is an application to the church probably, but Jesus was actually Jewish.
This is not only wrong, it is quite irrelevant. The passage makes it abundantly clear that not all those who confess or recognise the Lord as Lord will be welcomed in. So the idea that one simply has to confess Jesus is Lord is disproven by the text itself.
Mr Cheesy, I think you are quite correct in your assertion that lip service will not save. However, Romans 10 v 9 states:
"If you confess with your mouth, the Lord Jesus,
and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you SHALL be saved."
Here, the presumption is that the lips confess what the heart believes. Matt 7:21 certainly suggests that the assumption of acceptance based on the exercise of spiritual gifts is indeed insufficient and a vain hope.
Regarding sheep and goats. One might wonder why they are denoted as nations in Matt:25:32, and on what basis Jesus would choose to separate them into sheep and goats?
Finally, a word of advice, I think that arrogance and abusiveness, qualities which your posts display continually, are certainly not Godly and that a bit of humility, even in disagreement, would better recommend your opinions.
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Finally, a word of advice, I think that arrogance and abusiveness, qualities which your posts display continually, are certainly not Godly and that a bit of humility, even in disagreement, would better recommend your opinions.
Word of advice: don't tell me what to do. I'm in no sense willing to take any lessons from you, and moreover this is a space for discussion not spiritual guidance.
You, sir, are deluded and have no truth in you.
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arse
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Karl, liberal backslider: When are you old enough to burn for all eternity for not believing the right things
No one believes anyone burns for not believing the right things.
You're all right then.
Martin60, I may not be all right and you may be. The continual presumption of 'God in Bible as killer and enemy' is an impenetrable wall to meaningful dialogue. I think an anthropomorphic lens is probably the wrong way to approach him and honestly wonder why you continually beat yourself up by trying to do faith that way.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Finally, a word of advice, I think that arrogance and abusiveness, qualities which your posts display continually, are certainly not Godly and that a bit of humility, even in disagreement, would better recommend your opinions.
Word of advice: don't tell me what to do. I'm in no sense willing to take any lessons from you, and moreover this is a space for discussion not spiritual guidance.
You, sir, are deluded and have no truth in you.
Then kindly discuss without the attitude..or feel free not to interact. Your last statement says much more about you than it does about me.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Then kindly discuss without the attitude..or feel free not to interact. Your last statement says much more about you than it does about me.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
OOokay then. Let's just get back to discussing how your theology is complete garbage then. As to it being biblical - well, that's clearly bollocks.
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arse
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
No, I'm not confused, Jamat. Your nice neat explanation may very well be right. I just don't see things as neatly and compartmentalised as that.
Yes, I believe that the 'dead that die in the Lord' are with Christ. Yes, I believe in judgement and in heaven and hell, but I don't construct some kind of temporal frame as to when this, that or the other happens.
As I've said, once thee and me shrug off this mortal coil we're straight there at the Judgement. It's irrelevant whether there's a 5 year time-lapse, a 5,000 year one or a 5 million year one ... we are talking about Eternity here ... not a nice time-line chart in the Schofield Bible or some such ...
@Mudfrog, yes, of course these ideas predate the 16th century - but evangelicalism doesn't. It's pretty much an 18th century development based on earlier 16th and 17th century antecedents ...
Luther and Calvin weren't 18th, 19th, 20th or 21st century evangelicals only wearing ruffs ...
Also, medieval Roman Catholicism had all manner of faults and then some, but it certainly allowed a degree of wriggle-room when it came to who may or may not have found themselves in heaven or hell ...
The problem was, it developed ways of making people pay for the privilege ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Regarding sheep and goats. One might wonder why they are denoted as nations in Matt:25:32, and on what basis Jesus would choose to separate them into sheep and goats?
Seriously, have you READ the text you're talking about? It clearly states how the sheep and the goats are separated. And it is nothing to do with their nationality, which by the way is a poor translation of the relevant word anyway.
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arse
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
@any passing host:
I invite your intervention here.
Please note that an aggressive debating style does NOT need to include the continual accusation that ones opponent is ignorant,delusional or has no truth in him.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Jamat, I respectfully suggest that Martin60's often obscure posting style and fixation with God as Killer and so on is the product of his particular background (Armstrongism I think) and his attempts to move away from that just as much as your apparent inflexibility and what strikes me as extreme literalism is a product of yours ...
Or my - to you - equivocal approach is a product of mine.
We are all products of our environment to an extent.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
OK, look, I'm happy to discuss your stupid theology - which by the way I was doing - without calling you deluded if you stop trying to give me words to the wise and otherwise trying to enforce your discipline onto me.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
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Originally posted by Jamat:
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Karl, liberal backslider: When are you old enough to burn for all eternity for not believing the right things
No one believes anyone burns for not believing the right things.
You're all right then.
Martin60, I may not be all right and you may be. The continual presumption of 'God in Bible as killer and enemy' is an impenetrable wall to meaningful dialogue. I think an anthropomorphic lens is probably the wrong way to approach him and honestly wonder why you continually beat yourself up by trying to do faith that way.
That's because God in the Bible and in you is Killer and Enemy, there is no metanarrative for that Bronze Age projection and His infinitely bigger mindedness. I agree, you must stop approaching Him with your 100% certainly wrong Bronze Age anthropomorphic lens. In this only I'm not beating myself up. How you can conclude that I'm beating myself up by telling a better God story than you I don't know. The shared concepts don't exist.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
OK, look, I'm happy to discuss your stupid theology - which by the way I was doing - without calling you deluded if you stop trying to give me words to the wise and otherwise trying to enforce your discipline onto me.
I certainly am not trying to enforce anything and I do NOT have a stupid theology, and you would be WELL advised to reflect on you insulting and abrasive manners and lack of common courtesy. I have NEVER insulted or demeaned you as you have me and others on these boards, nor will I. However I have had enough of this behaviour from you. No one else here uses words like delusional, or tells anyone else,'hey go and learn what the Bible says, you do not know what you are taliking about.' That is just disrespectful and immature.
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Jamat - where do I send the invoice for a new irony meter?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Aijalon
Shipmate
# 18777
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Aijalon:
"Is the tab infinite"? Yes. I think the point there is that you CANNOT pay back the debt, so you don't get out.
It's really hard to see how I, a finite person, in a finite amount of time, can run up an infinite tab.
Sort of a red herring there. You are going too far outside the context of the picture story.
Jesus is boiling down all the hard thinking into a parable, which is a story so simple, anyone who understands payments and debts can understand. Infinities have nothing to do with it. Only the very finite life span of a human being who owes a lump of gold.
The disciples were simpletons, who were chosen for that reason. I think it is fairly clear that THEY would have understood the passage to mean that you cannot get out of prison, it would be a hopeless situation. Case closed.
But what it appears is that we have nowadays layered over much of that original context with our own brand of religious physics and cosmology. As one popular example we speak of God being "outside time" but rather than simply meaning that he's above the world watching over it, we actually tend to think that means he's really outside of present reality.
back to the point.... The story really only covers one thing - the issue of very large debts. If you think your debt is small, you have nothing to worry about.
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God gave you free will so you could give it back.
Posts: 200 | From: Kansas City | Registered: May 2017
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
If that was a jab at me, Aijalon, you haven't actually established what I mean by God being 'outside time'.
God infuses reality - if we can put it that way. He is 'everywhere present and filleth all things' as the Orthodox put it in their Liturgy.
So, to say that God is outside of time is to say that he transcends it. He is active within our 'present reality' as you put it but he is not constrained by it.
Does that make any more sense?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Aijalon
Shipmate
# 18777
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Posted
wasn't meant as jab really, though perhaps I am overly gruff, sorry for that. The outside time thingy has become a pet peeve of mine. You were just the most recent person to use the phrase.
Your explanation is nifty, no argument from me there. While nifty, it is also lofty. That explanation isn't helpful in a real world talk about problems.
At least in my background the concept of time is a crutch that people use for explaining variously how God isn't really responsible for such and such going on, in other words it amounts to God being largely detached from our reality because we're inside the time bottle and he's "outside".
For me though it always circles back to God being attached, responsible, present, touchable, personal, engaged presently ....
In the end, I have concluded that our scientific views of the dimension of time are crafted on limited observations of the speed of light and the supposition of its constancy. These observations give rise to assumptions about the nature of the universe and the idea of "spacetime" which I believe alter our view of God in a disastrous way - at least in my American experience.
This might be good for a separate thread, one which might be fun for another thread in the near future, but I don't think God either looks into or meddles with the future (or past) as if it were a movie, an object or any other sort of "thing". Such a time tinkering God, in my estimation, would be evil to have crafted such a cruel timeline as this one. Knowing God is not evil, means that concept is wrong.
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God gave you free will so you could give it back.
Posts: 200 | From: Kansas City | Registered: May 2017
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ok, I wasn't offended, Aijalon - no need to apologise.
I can certainly see what you're getting at. I hadn't thought of my comment as 'lofty' but if it was I don't see 'loftiness' as a problem particularly ...
We are dealing with transcendence here so a certain amount of loftiness must surely come into it ...
'Loftiness' and practicality aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
But hey, yes, I get what you're saying.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Aijalon
Shipmate
# 18777
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Posted
Sounds good.
back to the OP. There are a number of normal tendencies that seem to direct us to PSA.
1. Deduction. logic is limited and often wrong but we are prone to reason because it is useful. Reason tells us a number of things that agree with a literal viewpoint on scripture that points to PSA.
2. Ease. PSA is simple to understand. It is often the case that people like to quit while "ahead". Hence, once PSA is established why go further?
3. Comfort. People like to feel safe, or, saved as it were. Since phraseology usually speaks of people becoming saved, vs being sinners, it is comfortable to talk about the point in time at which one was "saved". Once this point is established, PSA falls naturally in place to support it. Of course, it is not natural or easy to explain someone being saved multiple times or becoming un-saved, it is only natural to want to know where one stands. Nobody likes feeling unsafe from wrath!
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God gave you free will so you could give it back.
Posts: 200 | From: Kansas City | Registered: May 2017
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, I get that ... and yes, I think that's part of the appeal.
These days I tend not to get hung-up on issues like 'assurance of salvation' nor even the exact point when I 'became a Christian' - although back in the day I would have pointed to a specific occasion, place and time. I now see that as part of a continuum rather than necessarily THE defining moment, but it was certainly a turning point, no question about that ...
But then, if you read John Wesley's Journal it's pretty apparent that he didn't always see the 1738 'Aldersgate experience' as the defining moment either ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Jamat - where do I send the invoice for a new irony meter?
You mean the one that registers all the personal slurs, gratuitous inferences and hateful comments I made about you? Send it to hell. I've never been called there. I wonder why?
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Marti 60: his infinitely bigger mindedness.
Just out of interest, if he is infinitely bigger minded than his depiction of himself in his time-limited iterpolatary revelation of himself , then on what basis can you determine ANYTHING about him?
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Regarding sheep and goats. One might wonder why they are denoted as nations in Matt:25:32, and on what basis Jesus would choose to separate them into sheep and goats?
Seriously, have you READ the text you're talking about? It clearly states how the sheep and the goats are separated. And it is nothing to do with their nationality, which by the way is a poor translation of the relevant word anyway.
Which word out of interest? I think you need to address specifically why Jesus does refer to this judgement scenario as one of 'national' separation if you are going to refute it with any credibility. Just to assert the contrary of what scripture says in Matt 25:32, is pretty lame, even for you.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Marti 60: his infinitely bigger mindedness.
Just out of interest, if he is infinitely bigger minded than his depiction of himself in his time-limited iterpolatary revelation of himself , then on what basis can you determine ANYTHING about him?
What depiction of Himself? Apart from Jesus? THE basis. Along with ungraspable, ineffable creation.
[ 25. May 2017, 21:43: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
@ Jamat
I very much suspect Karl has never been called there either. Your point is?
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
@ Jamat
I very much suspect Karl has never been called there either. Your point is?
What is the nature of the irony meter. I suspect it is about how judgemental my views seem to him which is pretty devastating.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Regarding sheep and goats. One might wonder why they are denoted as nations in Matt:25:32, and on what basis Jesus would choose to separate them into sheep and goats?
One needn't wonder; it's hardly opaque. "The Nations" just means the Gentiles. As to the basis, it's right there in the text: how did you treat the hungry, naked, imprisoned, and so forth?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
@ Jamat
I very much suspect Karl has never been called there either. Your point is?
What is the nature of the irony meter. I suspect it is about how judgemental my views seem to him which is pretty devastating.
"Ironic" does not mean "judgmental." May I suggest a good dictionary?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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