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Source: (consider it) Thread: She sacked the choir!
Golden Key
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# 1468

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{Hands Gamaliel a bottle of Geritol, a cozy knit blanket, and a membership in AARP. Puts a "Darn kids, get off my lawn!!!" sign in front of his home.}
[Biased]

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well yes ...

I was being a bit curmugeonly ... not to say pedantic ...

But can we 'see' the work of the Holy Spirit?

The wind bloweth where it listeth.

Young people bopping along to up-tempo worship songs doth not a work of the Holy Spirit make ... in and of itself ...

I'd be more convinced if it was a work of the Holy Spirit if it was THEM not the old people who put their musical preferences to one side ...

Now, that would be a miracle and worthy of note ...

[Biased] [Razz]

I get what you're getting at and I'm being deliberately awkward.

I would say any time we set aside ourselves to demonstrate the sacrificial love of Christ we can chalk it up to the miraculous work of the Spirit, whether the sacrificer is young or old. But really, does it then surprise us that it would be the older-- presumably wiser, more accustomed to the work of the Spirit-- Christians who demonstrated this transformative power (this time, anyway)? Rather, we should be asking ourselves why it isn't that way more often.

In this case, the part I left out (naughty!) was that these older Christians happened to be largely retired missionaries. So the notion of cross-cultural ministry was familiar to them, as was the notion of sacrificing your comfort to accommodate others.

They are mostly gone now, but not forgotten-- at least by me.
[Votive]

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Gamaliel
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I get that aspect and I'm not denigrating the principle of what they did.

That would apply whatever issue it'd been or if the situation had been reversed and things moved the other way for whatever reason - from up-tempo or contemporary to a more 'traditional' format or style, say.

The principle transcends the format.

Meanwhile, I have no idea what the acronym stands for nor the particular beverage that's been mentioned but I'll take the blanket ...

Perhaps I'm becoming one of Harry Enfield's 'Old Gits', despite never having found them funny back in the day.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
{Hands Gamaliel a bottle of Geritol, a cozy knit blanket, and a membership in AARP. Puts a "Darn kids, get off my lawn!!!" sign in front of his home.}
[Biased]

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Meanwhile, I have no idea what the acronym stands for nor the particular beverage that's been mentioned but I'll take the blanket ...

All classic (perhaps American?) markers of the elderly: Geritol is a tonic that's marketed as rejuvenating for the elderly, AARP stands for American Assoc. of Retired Persons-- an advocacy group who are able to wrangle a lot of senior citizen discounts and pressure the GOP not to cut social security.

iow, Golden Key is calling you a geezer.

Welcome to the club, and pass the Bengay (arthritis cream).

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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bib
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I posted this OP because I was concerned about the high handed and non consultative actions that had occurred. This is much more significant than what type of music was played. It augurs badly for the happiness of a congregation when the boss is an autocrat who cares nothing for his/her flock. I once attended a church where the new minister told me that he wasn't going to bother with the elderly in his congregation as in his opinion it was only the young who mattered. Needless to say, the older congregation, who tended to be the financial supporters, soon left.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
{Hands Gamaliel a bottle of Geritol, a cozy knit blanket, and a membership in AARP. Puts a "Darn kids, get off my lawn!!!" sign in front of his home.}
[Biased]

Yes, I'd never heard of those either, though the blanket one was easy to guess. It sounds as though the equivalent of Geritol might be Sanatogen, though not Buckfast, as apparently that's popular in parts of Scotland among headbangers as the cheapest way to get the fastest alcoholic intake.

More seriously, I repeat what I questioned earlier, about the pastoral legitimacy of abandoning the part of your flock who are nearest to the life event when they are going to need faith most.

Also, now that I am old, I do value what I learnt from people who at the time I'd have regarded as stuffy, stuck in the past and no longer getting it, and who are no longer around to ask or to thank.

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Gamaliel
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@Cliffdweller, 'geezer' is a specifically London / Cockney term for 'bloke' (guy) and isn't necessarily age-specific - although it's not the sort of term the hip-hop generation would use ... Although they'd understand it.

It tends to carry connotations of being a bit 'fly', a bit wheeler-dealer - like a market-trader or something - think old-fashioned stretch markets and Cockney barrow-boys.

''Ere you are me darlin', fifty pence a pahnd yer bananas ...'

You'll hear people see, 'He's alright he is, but he's a bit of a geezer ...'

Rather than being called a 'geezer' I was being called an 'Old Git' - which is rather more offensive.

Calling someone an 'Old geezer' isn't necessarily perjorative.

'That's an old geezer's pub,that is,my granddad goes in there ...'

It all depends on the context.

Saying that you'd seen 'a' bunch of geezers' going for a night out doesn't necessarily imply a value judgement, any more than a statement like the following, 'There's this geezer lives near us, right, he has this van parked outside his house - it's there day and night. I never seen him drive it ...'

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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Gamaliel
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Dang that predictive text - I meant 'street market'.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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andras
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quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I posted this OP because I was concerned about the high handed and non consultative actions that had occurred. This is much more significant than what type of music was played. It augurs badly for the happiness of a congregation when the boss is an autocrat who cares nothing for his/her flock. I once attended a church where the new minister told me that he wasn't going to bother with the elderly in his congregation as in his opinion it was only the young who mattered. Needless to say, the older congregation, who tended to be the financial supporters, soon left.

From various postings here, it seems that this is a more common attitude than I'd suspected.

There was a cartoon in the Church Times over a year ago showing a vicar turning away an old chap from the church door while at the same time warmly welcoming a young family. Presumably it never crossed the cartoonist's mind that there are actually clergy who really do behave like that!

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Anselmina
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I once attended the church where the minister commented in his sermon that there were 'two many grey-heads' in the congregation. And went on to make a number of negative comments about the older people and apparent lack - in his opinion - of younger families by contrast.

As it happened, and he would've known this of course, the church was just above forty years old and the 'grey heads' he was deriding had been the young families who had build the church originally, funded it (and his precious stipend and pension and house), and had brought first their children and then their grandchildren along to worship.

I know what he was trying to say, but he was being a complete dick about it. I could've punched him. My teeth still grind at the thought of it.

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Gamaliel
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I think we are going to see a lot more of this. The church authorities are getting desperate and increasingly 'managerial' ...

They are putting pressure on clergy to attract younger congregations and to adapt things in order to do so. That sounds great in theory. In practice it leads to clergy acting like dicks in the example Anselmina has given.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Twilight

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This whole thread has made me cackle with evil glee. I saw the title and for one hopeful moment I thought she had sacked the choir and replaced it with nothing. I would have cheered.

I am so sick of the music, in any given church, being the Big Main Event. I don't care if it's the Mormon Tabernacle choir or the contemporary group of local, frustrated rock stars who can't read a note of music but can bang out a rhythm on their drums and guitars so as to finally get a chance to be on stage. There's a big band like that at my husbands church -- he's on trumpet -- and they actually get up and leave before the sermon because their part is over and why be bored, right dude?

My ideal church would have no music other than the creaky voices of the congregation with perhaps a piano to help keep us in tune as we do our best to make a joyful noise unto the Lord. Aren't we supposed to be there to worship together? We pray together, listen to the sermon together, take communion together and I think we should sing together. If I want to listen to a concert I can go to one some other time.

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Boogie

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I'm unaffected by music - yes, weird, I know. But I truly can take it or leave it. I have the radio on for background noise but, when my husband turns it up to appreciate a song it means nothing to me.

So, in church, I sing because it's good for my health - lungs etc get a workout. But I would just as happily recite the hymns.

Sack the choir - no way! They love it, let them do it! Our minister is very musical and runs a community choir - plenty have started attending Church because of it.

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Enoch
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Anselmina and Gamaliel, I agree with everything you've both just said. Twilight, I agree with pretty much all of what you've said, and particularly the presentation of music as the 'Big Main Event', something we watch and listen to. But I wouldn't like to have no music, and I get the impression you aren't really even implying that.

It strikes me that the musicians are there to help us to worship, not to perform an act of worship on our behalf. I've grumbled about that phrase before. I don't think there's such a thing as an 'act of worship'. Nor do I think its about looking or sounding inspirational.

Leo, if he's following this thread may well disagree with me on this, but it's something I don't think our local cathedral has got quite right. Their choir(s) is/are excellent but in the Eucharistic Prayer, the action suddenly stops while the organ starts, the choir sings an exquisite sanctus usually by a famous composer. The rest of us, including the celebrant just stand there listening to the musical interlude. Then the music stops and the Eucharistic Prayer resumes. The way it's done completely breaks the flow of the action. It's not integrated into either the rest of the prayer or what the congregation is doing.

There would be an outcry if anyone criticised this, tried to change the way it was done, suggested they select a sanctus that was shorter, a capella or even one the congregation could engage with in some way. Musicians would resign, the press would get involved, people would take sides and accuse one another of having no taste, no sense of history or no understanding of liturgy.

So it's not just Christian rock bands, though I've made comparable comments about them.

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Gamaliel
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I agree, it's not just about Christian rock bands. The same sort of 'performance' thing happens at the more choral end of the spectrum too ...

The ideal, of course, is to have the choir (or the worship band if you insist ...) facilitating the sung-worship of the congregation rather than delivering a performance of some kind ...

Easier said than done ...

Some forms of worship need a choir. You couldn't have Orthodox worship without a cantor and one or two other people to lead the chants. Well, you could ... but it wouldn't be the same ...

Some Anglican services I've attended haven't had a sung-element at all - it's all done from the Prayer Book and the words are said rather than sung. I'm comfortable with that.

But the issue, of course, isn't whether we use this, that or the other style of worship so much as how clergy-persons and leaders conduct themselves/introduce change and so on.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The ideal, of course, is to have the choir (or the worship band if you insist ...) facilitating the sung-worship of the congregation rather than delivering a performance of some kind ...

At a church I once belonged to, the organist used to totally abandon the melody line on the next to the last stanza of every hymn. At the main service there was a choir who could cope with this and help the congregation. At the early service, when people's voices were not warmed up, it was disastrous. Some members of the congregation floundered while others gave up completely.

Either the organist did not hear what was happening or he didn't see any reason to cater to incompetents.

Moo

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

More seriously, I repeat what I questioned earlier, about the pastoral legitimacy of abandoning the part of your flock who are nearest to the life event when they are going to need faith most.

Also, now that I am old, I do value what I learnt from people who at the time I'd have regarded as stuffy, stuck in the past and no longer getting it, and who are no longer around to ask or to thank.

fwiw, I find this argument so much more persuasive than the more common one expressed here:

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Needless to say, the older congregation, who tended to be the financial supporters, soon left.

In the end, of course, what we really want is a church that does a really good job of incorporating all generations-- and yes, there are churches that manage to do just that. As noted by others already, they don't do it through autocratic top-down fiat. You do it by treating and valuing each member of the congregation as family. No one minds including the gross mushy veggies in Thanksgiving dinner when you know that's something Granny really loves. And we're delighted to have a few neon-colored sweets to delight toddler Bobby. We don't care for them, but we love seeing the joy they bring to our loved ones. Similarly, we don't have to love every song sung in our worship services, but if we can take joy in the fact Mabel or Zack's worship and the way they are connecting with God, we will be glad to give them that.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@Cliffdweller, 'geezer' is a specifically London / Cockney term for 'bloke' (guy) and isn't necessarily age-specific - although it's not the sort of term the hip-hop generation would use ... Although they'd understand it.

In the US, "geezer" refers to old people-- more often men than women-- with a low-key implication that they are cranky and out of touch. "Get off my lawn!" is what geezers say.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Gamaliel
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I hadn't realised the term 'geezer' existed across the Pond. You learn something new every day.

Is it a recent import or a long-standing US term? Words cross and recross the Atlantic in both directions of course.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
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I've heard the term geezer all my life and I am 62. (And I try not to be a cranky one, myself [Smile] )

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I hadn't realised the term 'geezer' existed across the Pond. You learn something new every day.

Is it a recent import or a long-standing US term? Words cross and recross the Atlantic in both directions of course.

I've heard it all my life (in the U.S.), and I've lived long enough to be a geezer myself -- though I also believe it usually refers to old men more than women.

Cross-post with Lyda*Rose -- I'm a few years older than she is, so I move more slowly!

[ 01. May 2017, 17:03: Message edited by: Pigwidgeon ]

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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Geezer is very common here in the USA.

There was an ancient old gentleman in the Italian-American RC parish of my childhood whom everyone always referred to as "The Geezer." His real name was the wonderful Rocco Pelusi.

I used The Geezer for my Ship name for a while. Some of my older MW reports bear that name.

I'd never refer to a woman as a geezer, though -- only a man. There was an ancient old woman in that same Italian-American parish whom everyone used to call "The Crone." I don't know what her real name was.

I might also call an old woman a hen, biddy, or old maid. Except Pigwidgeon, though, who is forever young. [Biased]

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Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I've heard it all my life (in the U.S.), and I've lived long enough to be a geezer myself -- though I also believe it usually refers to old men more than women.

Heard it all my life, too, though I'm not quite old enough to be considered a geezer—my children's opinions notwithstanding.

FWIW, I can't recall ever hearing it used to refer to a woman. A geezer is, in my experience, always a man.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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Baptist Trainfan
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We'll be getting to "chaps" - and possibly "chapesses" - next!

We seem to have strayed ever so slightly from the OP ...

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
... I used The Geezer for my Ship name for a while. Some of my older MW reports bear that name.

I'd never refer to a woman as a geezer, though -- only a man. There was an ancient old woman in that same Italian-American parish whom everyone used to call "The Crone." I don't know what her real name was.

I might also call an old woman a hen, biddy, or old maid. Except Pigwidgeon, though, who is forever young. [Biased]

Now that's definitely a difference in register. 'Crone' might have slightly humorous overtones here, but it's definitely derogatory. Unless you were a very malicious person indeed, you would never want the person you might have described to others as 'The Crone' to find out that was how you thought of her. It's much worse than 'hen', which in some parts of the country is used as an affectionate form of address or 'biddy', though 'old maid' has sad overtones - definitely jokey though to describe a man as an 'old maid'.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
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Ah, I see. Anyway, to try to get back to the OP, the Crone at our church was never a member of the choir.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

I might also call an old woman a hen, biddy, or old maid. Except Pigwidgeon, though, who is forever young. [Biased]

Thank you!
[Overused]

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Geezer is very common here in the USA.

There was an ancient old gentleman in the Italian-American RC parish of my childhood whom everyone always referred to as "The Geezer." His real name was the wonderful Rocco Pelusi.

I used The Geezer for my Ship name for a while. Some of my older MW reports bear that name.

I'd never refer to a woman as a geezer, though -- only a man. There was an ancient old woman in that same Italian-American parish whom everyone used to call "The Crone." I don't know what her real name was.

I might also call an old woman a hen, biddy, or old maid. Except Pigwidgeon, though, who is forever young. [Biased]

Much the same here, save that Geezer is not as common now as it was 40 years ago; much recent immigration is leading to changes in usages, adding new words and taking away older ones. It's probably in much more common use in country areas than the cities. Always applied to a man, never heard it used of a woman, often coupled with old.

Biddy is a word largely disappeared from city use, but still in the country. Crone has very negative connotations. I'd use neither for Miss Amanda.

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bib
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My late father used to call us geezers when we were children.

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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"

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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291

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Wasn't there a song in the 70s about someone being a real tasty geezer?

It became a universal term for a handsome young gent.

At least it did at my school!

M.

Posts: 2252 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673

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quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Wasn't there a song in the 70s about someone being a real tasty geezer?

It became a universal term for a handsome young gent.

At least it did at my school!

M.

A RIGHT tasty geezer, if you don't mind. [Smile] This old geezer remembers it well. Johnie Reggae by The Piglets may not have been the only version?

If I am not allowed to link, would a kind host please remove? youtube

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

Posts: 1917 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
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# 812

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I remember it well too.

'Johnny Reggae, Reggae ... here comes Johnny Reggae ...'

I could never work out the lyrics but advance adolescent wondered whether they were rude.

'Johnny Reggae, Reggae laid it on me' I thought she sang. I embarrassed my Dad, who was no prude, by asking him if it was some kind of sexual reference.

Anyone know the words?

'He's a real tasty geezer ...'

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15444 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673

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What's he like
Mavis?
He's a real tasty geezer.

He's grown his hair a bit
but it's smooth, not too long
an' he wears a baseball shirt
with a number seventeen on

He looks great in his big white
basketball boots.
He's stupid over football
An' he looks me in the eye
when he shoots.

Reggae
Reggae
Reggae

Here comes Johnny Reggae

Johnny Reggae
Reggae
lay it on me.

Reggae
Reggae
Reggae...

He'll always start a fight for me
he's always on the phone
at the dance-hall in the evening
he'll always take me home

In his fringe and buckle stompers
and his two-tone tomic strides

He's a real tasty geezer
an' I'm his - here - inside.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Make of it what you will (I wouldn't talk to my mum about it just in case.) [Biased]

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

Posts: 1917 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gill H

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# 68

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I'd rather not speculate about things which came from the pen of decidedly dodgy geezer Jonathan King.

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Searching for a new sig...

Posts: 9141 | From: London | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673

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I have always thought that 'lay it on me' was like the contemporary 'high five' or 'put it there' when offering your hand for a shake. I have no idea about anything else in the lyrics but most or all of it seems harnmless to me.

Back on the topic - my old minister (70 years ago) used to say 'The devil gets into the church through the choir'. [Ultra confused]

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

Posts: 1917 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
{Hands Gamaliel a bottle of Geritol, a cozy knit blanket, and a membership in AARP. Puts a "Darn kids, get off my lawn!!!" sign in front of his home.}
[Biased]

Thanks to cliffdweller and others who jumped in to explain this. I sort of tossed a mental coin about providing links, and it came down on the "they can look up Geritol and AARP" side. Apologies for any confusion and inconvenience.

I didn't intend any insult, BTW. Gamaliel made a comment, followed by smilies, that was very much in the "Darn kids, get off my lawn!!!" vein, and I playfully tossed that back to him.

I don't think I would've called him a "geezer", in the American sense, just because I usually don't use that word. More likely,
"old coot" (Free Dictionary, last definition) or "the (stereotypical) grumpy old man who lives on the corner".

IME, "old coot" often includes a sneaking admiration, for someone who dares to do/say whatever it was, and possibly gets away with it.

Possibly the old-cootest of all old coots was fold-singer/activist Pete Seeger. At his 90th birthday celebration (televised), Bruce Springsteen said "Pete's going to be out here in a minute; and he's going to look a bit like your grandpa, if your grandpa could kick your *ass*".
[Killing me]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17965 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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Typo in my last post should read "folk-singer".

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17965 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
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# 812

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I took no offence, Golden Key.

As you correctly identified I made a teasing remark and accepted the teasing riposte in return.

It was my birthday yesterday. I was 56. Consequently, I am well along the trajectory from Angry Young Man to Grumpy Old Git ...

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15444 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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Hmmm...how to make Geritol frosting for a birthday cake...

(Happy birthday!)

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17965 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
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# 17175

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Gamaliel - a reminder that the hip-hop generation are Gen Xers and mostly in their 40s now [Biased] Obviously subsequent generations have carried it on, but as a genre it straddles disco and house music in terms of how it started, parallel to new wave. I recommend The Get Down on Netflix!

Choirs don't work everywhere. My church is MOTR with a fairly new open evangelical rector who is slowly bringing in changes - we have a robed choir for our Holy Communion services when I feel like it actually detracts from the worship and is just there because that's what they've always had, and I sincerely hope our rector can persuade the church to ditch the choir ASAP. Nothing to do with wanting it to be guitars and worship songs, just to do with the choir being genuinely bad and not necessary.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Gamaliel - a reminder that the hip-hop generation are Gen Xers and mostly in their 40s now [Biased] Obviously subsequent generations have carried it on, but as a genre it straddles disco and house music in terms of how it started, parallel to new wave. I recommend The Get Down on Netflix!

Choirs don't work everywhere. My church is MOTR with a fairly new open evangelical rector who is slowly bringing in changes - we have a robed choir for our Holy Communion services when I feel like it actually detracts from the worship and is just there because that's what they've always had, and I sincerely hope our rector can persuade the church to ditch the choir ASAP. Nothing to do with wanting it to be guitars and worship songs, just to do with the choir being genuinely bad and not necessary.

Pomona you need a new director of music, not no choir. ETA: This is because it takes many years, at least a generation in fact, to build a musical tradition in a church, and only one dry spell and/or uppity clergyperson to destroy it.

[ 06. May 2017, 15:16: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

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Pomona
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# 17175

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quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Gamaliel - a reminder that the hip-hop generation are Gen Xers and mostly in their 40s now [Biased] Obviously subsequent generations have carried it on, but as a genre it straddles disco and house music in terms of how it started, parallel to new wave. I recommend The Get Down on Netflix!

Choirs don't work everywhere. My church is MOTR with a fairly new open evangelical rector who is slowly bringing in changes - we have a robed choir for our Holy Communion services when I feel like it actually detracts from the worship and is just there because that's what they've always had, and I sincerely hope our rector can persuade the church to ditch the choir ASAP. Nothing to do with wanting it to be guitars and worship songs, just to do with the choir being genuinely bad and not necessary.

Pomona you need a new director of music, not no choir. ETA: This is because it takes many years, at least a generation in fact, to build a musical tradition in a church, and only one dry spell and/or uppity clergyperson to destroy it.
Many churches function perfectly well without a choir, it's not essential to Christian worship and I don't think it's necessary in my church - generally I am in favour of choral services but I think our church is best without them. We don't have a director of music anyway - IME only Anglo-Catholic churches in England ever do, it's not something I've ever come across outside of that tradition. A worship committee or self-selecting music group is far more common.

As far as I can tell, from talking to longstanding members, the church has never had a particularly rich musical tradition. It's a historically low-church/Nonconformist area and the church has always used the most contemporary hymnbook. The contemporary worship services (piano/acoustic guitar/drums and mostly hymns, nothing achingly hip) have been popular with everyone. There is generally a desire to modernise things, it's not a case of the rector trying to change things nobody wants changing.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5314 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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Pomona:
quote:
I sincerely hope our rector can persuade the church to ditch the choir ASAP. Nothing to do with wanting it to be guitars and worship songs, just to do with the choir being genuinely bad and not necessary.
Sounds like a plan. Just tell the choir they suck and "detract from worship", sack them, and tell them to suck it up and don't whine about it like selfish, little gits. Problem solved.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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ThunderBunk

Stone cold idiot
# 15579

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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Pomona:
quote:
I sincerely hope our rector can persuade the church to ditch the choir ASAP. Nothing to do with wanting it to be guitars and worship songs, just to do with the choir being genuinely bad and not necessary.
Sounds like a plan. Just tell the choir they suck and "detract from worship", sack them, and tell them to suck it up and don't whine about it like selfish, little gits. Problem solved.
On the other hand, the rector might have at least looked the phrase "pastoral sensitivity" up in a dictionary and therefore find a different way of tackling the issue.

On the other hand, that's not a choir: it's a group of people who have become (possibly regrettably) accustomed to standing in choir stalls. Nearly all choirs, apart from chamber groups of professionals or quasi-professionals, need direction, otherwise they lose focus and quality.

And just to kill another complete canard, churches of all shades had choirs up to about the 1980s - I certainly sang in one in my adolescence, which happened during that particular decade, well towards the low end of mid-candle. It did all the bits of ASB rite A, but without any conviction as to what it was doing. Many still do, although regrettably fewer as time passes. There is no necessary correlation between musical tradition and churchmanship.

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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".

Foolish, potentially deranged witterings

Posts: 2133 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291

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Pomona, our resolutely middle of the road shack has a fantastic Director of Music.

M.

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Ethne Alba
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# 5804

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[ What wouldn't i give for a choir in our shack?.....hmmmm.....]
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Pomona, our resolutely Anglo-Catholic shack has a fantastic volunteer organist/pianist, who on High Days and Holy Days (and other odd days now and then!) organises a small group of people to emerge from the congregation, at Communion time, to sing suitably reflective/uplifting songs or hymns.

She works with one of our Lay Readers to choose suitable music, on a monthly basis, for the Sunday Eucharist.

No choir stalls, no choir robes, just members of the congregation exercising a special ministry at a special time.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 9157 | From: Passing The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472

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Pomona writes:
quote:
We don't have a director of music anyway - IME only Anglo-Catholic churches in England ever do, it's not something I've ever come across outside of that tradition. A worship committee or self-selecting music group is far more common.
Directors of music are fairly common among larger Lutheran churches in the US midwest, especially of the German and Scandinavian flavour. Indeed, I have two Canadian musical friends who enjoy great jobs at this.

I have seen at close range a rector/choir war which, in the short term, the rector won. In the longterm, he split the parish during a five-year internal war, and then took it out of the Anglican communion. Since then, I have been inclined to look at such efforts as a cleric-with-an-ego/political-agenda phenomenon, and leaned to look at it from a choir's point of view. Clergy do not always look at these things in the longer term and many newly-minted clerics--like some managers of my acquaintance- favour the politics of programme implementation over the less precisely measurable spiritual life of a community.

Posts: 6137 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
JLB
Apprentice
# 10670

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In this deanery (and diocese, regarded as evangelical) many churches have a director of muaic. Our village church certainly does, and has a choir that contributes greatly to our worship at Sung Eucharist and Evensong.
Posts: 25 | From: wiltshire | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I have seen at close range a rector/choir war which, in the short term, the rector won. In the longterm, he split the parish during a five-year internal war, and then took it out of the Anglican communion. Since then, I have been inclined to look at such efforts as a cleric-with-an-ego/political-agenda phenomenon

We have to take each case on its own merits.

I have been in a congregation where the choir was sacked, which proved to be a springboard for continued church growth. Choir-with-an-ego/political-agenda is also a possibility to be considered.

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Fearfully and wonderfully mad
Love the dinner, hate the din.
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