Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Yes, but it goes far far beyond that with CCM.

The musicians there are directly marketing their products to Christians on the basis that they are also Christians, not on the basis that it is nice and uplifting music.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I once heard of a Greek Orthodox Church in London which didn't have a choir or anyone who could act as cantor - so they paid a Male Voice Choir from London's sizeable Welsh community to come and do the honours ...

They were given the music and the words were written out for them phonetically. So each Sunday these Welsh fellas would turn up and intone the chants using the pronunciation they were given and without the first idea what it was they were singing ...

Of course, that's an extreme example but I deploy it in the interests of balance.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I once heard of a Greek Orthodox Church in London which didn't have a choir or anyone who could act as cantor - so they paid a Male Voice Choir from London's sizeable Welsh community to come and do the honours ...

They were given the music and the words were written out for them phonetically. So each Sunday these Welsh fellas would turn up and intone the chants using the pronunciation they were given and without the first idea what it was they were singing ...

Of course, that's an extreme example but I deploy it in the interests of balance.

---

If they were Christians albeit of a different tradition I wouldn't call that "more extreme"

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nick Tamen:


A choir should attempt to do its best because we should attempt to do our best in all of worship. But what the choir does should never be a performance for the congregation. The choir's role is to lead the congregation in making music, not to replace the congregation or to perform for it.

---

In practice, though, "led worship" is almost always a form of performance, which is why in low Charismatic and Evangelical settings there is such a direct cross-over between music which is made for listening to (CCM as discussed above) and music made for church.

I've been loads of times to choral services at Canterbury Cathedral, and there are significant proportions of the service which are performance by the choir. One service I recall had a setting which was supposed to sound like church bells.

Of course, there is a level at which there are at least some in the congregation who are entirely familiar with the purpose of the various parts of an Anglican (and presumably in a similar way a RCC or Orthodox) choral service and truly are using it to lead their worship. But I don't think it is any less performance for all that.

If we say that the drum-and-guitar model of church is a complete contrast, it isn't much less a performance for all that. Those playing are often on a stage with the congregation watching and participation may be not much more than singing along with their favourite track at home.

Even the great organ and hymn tradition is so often about loud noises and performance.

I don't think performance should be considered a dirty word with regard to church - and it seems to me that there is a lot of finger-pointing going on from different traditions which have exactly the same benefits and drawbacks as the thing they're criticising.

As a footnote, I know reasonably well a congregation which sings a range of songs in their church vocabulary, apparently "unled" and acapella. But it isn't any less performance for all that.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Gamaliel (and others)

This is a group from the London Welsh Male Voice Choir (sometimes with people from the London Welsh Chorale). Both choirs do regular concerts and are secular.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I want to know if there is anything like a biblical lament in modern Christian pop, or is it all this "you're so victorious" shit with occasional excursions into "God pulls me up when I'm feeling down."

I would like something singable to growl at God occasionally.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
The problem, AndyHB, is that CCM thought and thinks of your two 'conditionals' as either/ or: it failed/ fails to realise that you can be a Christian and still suffer from that depression, that 'progressive' disease, that cancer, etc. It's message to people on such states, with a few noble exceptions, is basically " Cheer up, everyone, let's have a sing-song. Isn't God marvellous!"

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
The problem, AndyHB, is that CCM thought and thinks of your two 'conditionals' as either/ or: it failed/ fails to realise that you can be a Christian and still suffer from that depression, that 'progressive' disease, that cancer, etc. It's message to people on such states, with a few noble exceptions, is basically " Cheer up, everyone, let's have a sing-song. Isn't God marvellous!"

---

And you think traditional old-school hymnody (with notable exceptions) is any different in that regard?

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Seedsower:
I agree there is wayyyyy too much triumphalism in today's Christian pop. Here's a thought: I d I thinkon't know if this has been done but why don't a group of talented Christians get together and put on "Job The Musical" I am not being facetious I think it could, if done right kick something new off in Christianity. Just a thought.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The guy has oodles of integrity.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by stonespring:
Secular pop music is largely insipid as well, but it seems diverse compared with the Christian pop on the radio and the worship music heard in many churches. Is this because the people making and listening to secular pop music are more diverse than the people making and listening to mainstream Christian pop music?

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
The problem, AndyHB, is that CCM thought and thinks of your two 'conditionals' as either/ or: it failed/ fails to realise that you can be a Christian and still suffer from that depression, that 'progressive' disease, that cancer, etc. It's message to people on such states, with a few noble exceptions, is basically " Cheer up, everyone, let's have a sing-song. Isn't God marvellous!"

---

And you think traditional old-school hymnody (with notable exceptions) is any different in that regard?

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
The problem, AndyHB, is that CCM thought and thinks of your two 'conditionals' as either/ or: it failed/ fails to realise that you can be a Christian and still suffer from that depression, that 'progressive' disease, that cancer, etc. It's message to people on such states, with a few noble exceptions, is basically " Cheer up, everyone, let's have a sing-song. Isn't God marvellous!"

---

And you think traditional old-school hymnody (with notable exceptions) is any different in that regard?

---

It's more God-centric and focuses on His attributes rather than how we (should) feel about life, as a rule.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by stonespring:
Secular pop music is largely insipid as well, but it seems diverse compared with the Christian pop on the radio and the worship music heard in many churches. Is this because the people making and listening to secular pop music are more diverse than the people making and listening to mainstream Christian pop music?

---

I don't think I'm going out on a limb here by saying that secular pop music sounds more diverse because the one rule of secular pop music is "does it make money?".

Whereas Christian pop music has very many more strictures, none of which are based on how good it sounds. Thus Christian pop music ends up being more crap than its secular counterpart.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't say this to 'defend' traditional hymns over and against contemporary worship songs and choruses but I think - as Matt Black and Zappa have indicated - that it's pretty axiomatic that - whilst there is certainly more range and variety than critics might allow - the more traditional hymns and liturgies do cover 'more ground' than the contemporary worship songs and so on do.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Dare I descend to stereotyping and suggest that the results you describe for your survey might just have something to do with:

1) The location ie. the USA.

2) The particular tradition/s surveyed.

3) Confirmation bias.

I don't say this to 'defend' traditional hymns over and against contemporary worship songs and choruses but I think - as Matt Black and Zappa have indicated - that it's pretty axiomatic that - whilst there is certainly more range and variety than critics might allow - the more traditional hymns and liturgies do cover 'more ground' than the contemporary worship songs and so on do.

For a kick-off, if you're in a church which attempts to some degree to follow a Calendar or lectionary then there is at least some attempt to match the hymnody to the seasonal themes if not the lectionary readings.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by goperryrevs:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't say this to 'defend' traditional hymns over and against contemporary worship songs and choruses but I think - as Matt Black and Zappa have indicated - that it's pretty axiomatic that - whilst there is certainly more range and variety than critics might allow - the more traditional hymns and liturgies do cover 'more ground' than the contemporary worship songs and so on do.

---

If you're talking traditional hymns, you've got a good few hundred years to draw from. CCM, you've got a handful of decades. Pick any random hymn/song that's ever been written, and the likelihood is that you'll get something average and uninspiring. It's just a numbers game. I'd guess that the percentage of genuinely brilliant hymns and genuinely brilliant Christian pop are pretty equivalent.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ok. I'll buy that ... But my concern isn't simply that happy-clappy predominates over lament, say ... Rather that the whole trajectory if you like of the Christian story is being whittled down to subjectivity, 'my favourite bits' and lowest common denominator feel-good factor bilge.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The whole trajectory if you like of the Christian story is being whittled down to subjectivity, 'my favourite bits' and lowest common denominator feel-good factor bilge.

---