homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » 24-7 Prayer Rooms (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: 24-7 Prayer Rooms
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm not sure I go looking for 'cause and effect' evidence in that sense, Martin60.

I'm not suggesting that prayer was ineffective, useless or a waste of time - nor that those who have gone in for extended, round-the-clock prayer sessions in whatever tradition we're talking about have been wasting their time ...

Call me old-fashioned, but I'm still of the C S Lewis view that when I stop praying the 'coincidences' seem to stop happening ... but at the same time there's a degree of 'confirmation bias' going on in all these things.

As far as 24/7 prayer meetings as a way of building a sense of community and purpose within individual congregations, I can see how that works ... but I'm still wary ...

I'm reminded of something a hoary old Yorkshire textile baron said to a chap I knew who ran an advertising agency up there.

'Nay lad, all this talk of advertising and PR, it seems to mi that it's lahrk pissin' thissen in a thick worsted suit ... Tha gets a nice warm feeling but no other booger knows tha's done it ...'

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 14876 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well, the atheists would say the whole thing was a matter of confirmation bias. Maybe we´re all just kidding ourselves....

I can understand if you feel you´ve already done your share of enough public praying in your life. Some people feel the same way about going to church in general. But I would be wary of assuming that other people have already reached your own spiritual heights and should therefore be advised not to pray too much, or that God is uninterested in their communal prayers. For many of us that advice really wouldn´t be very helpful.

I know it´s hard for you to believe, but many of us still have some way to go before we overdose on prayer! Even many so-called evangelicals, I imagine!

Posts: 6109 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I haven't overdosed on prayer.

I haven't even begun to pray.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 14876 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

 - Posted      Profile for Penny S     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Gamaliel, I think the coincidences quote is from William Temple - I seem to recall it is often used on the service sheet at Kings College London carol service.
Posts: 5612 | Registered: May 2009  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ok, thanks for the correction, Penny S.

Meanwhile, for the record ...

No, I don't think I'm any more spiritual than those who go in for religious enthusiasm or 24/7 prayer meetings and do on ...

It's simply that I don't particularly share the enthusiasm for such things nor an I convinced that they do everything the organisers claim ...

But we reap what we sow and if you're keen to develop a church of keenies where people engage in 24/7 prayer rotas, then that's what you'll get ...

There are a lot worse things you could do.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 14876 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not sure I go looking for 'cause and effect' evidence in that sense, Martin60.

I love your use of understatement G.

I'm not suggesting that prayer was ineffective, useless or a waste of time - nor that those who have gone in for extended, round-the-clock prayer sessions in whatever tradition we're talking about have been wasting their time ...

Me neither. By no means. I'm sure the prayer was all most psychologically affective for the prayor and those needing the encouragement of them filling a slot.

Call me old-fashioned, but I'm still of the C S Lewis view that when I stop praying the 'coincidences' seem to stop happening ... but at the same time there's a degree of 'confirmation bias' going on in all these things.

You're old fashioned. I get answers to prayer all the time too. My thinking and feeling changes in the light of it. What very little I can muster. Less than minimal gratitude and even less than minimal calls for help, for God to join me in my pits of despond, of intrusion, of failure, of hard heartedness, of fear, of self loathing - of horror. It - He, ineffably, by the Spirit - ALWAYS helps when I do.

As far as 24/7 prayer meetings as a way of building a sense of community and purpose within individual congregations, I can see how that works ...

Aye. Content to do it on that basis without ever saying that's all, despite the pity of not being able to.

but I'm still wary ...

I'm reminded of something a hoary old Yorkshire textile baron said to a chap I knew who ran an advertising agency up there.

'Nay lad, all this talk of advertising and PR, it seems to mi that it's lahrk pissin' thissen in a thick worsted suit ... Tha gets a nice warm feeling but no other booger knows tha's done it ...'

Aye.




--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 15787 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884

 - Posted      Profile for angelfish   Email angelfish   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... but I'm too long in the tooth and been round the block too many times to get all excited

I'm sorry I rained on your parade angelfish.....

Hey, thanks for the apology. Can I suggest you need to beware of mistaking cynicism for wisdom? and I need to beware of making the opposite error.

You will never set foot in a 24-7 prayer room. Naaman would never set foot in the River Jordan. Peter would never eat "unclean" food. And yet...

--------------------
"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"

Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Show me the fruits.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 15787 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... but I'm too long in the tooth and been round the block too many times to get all excited

I'm sorry I rained on your parade angelfish.....

Hey, thanks for the apology. Can I suggest you need to beware of mistaking cynicism for wisdom? and I need to beware of making the opposite error.

You will never set foot in a 24-7 prayer room. Naaman would never set foot in the River Jordan. Peter would never eat "unclean" food. And yet...

Well yes, I get all that, angelfish, and I think there are equal and opposite errors that can be made here ... cynicism on the one hand and a kind of starry-eyed naivety on the other ...

Not that I'm accusing you of the latter ...

However - and I would say this, wouldn't I? - I was somewhat taken aback by your assertion that were I in your congregation you'd be 'concerned about me' if I expressed misgivings about the 24/7 prayer sessions ...

As that were somehow indicative of a spiritual malaise ...

As if participation in 24/7 prayer sessions were somehow a measure of spiritual fervour or vibrancy ...

[Paranoid]

I could understand your reaction if I were flatly refusing to attend church services/meetings of any kind ...

But entertaining some mild misgivings about the 24/7 prayer rota stuff doesn't strike me as great cause for spiritual concern ... but then, our respective mileages may vary.

I'm not saying I'd never, ever, ever in a million years set foot in an evangelical prayer meeting ever, ever again or not participate in some kind of prayer rota.

But to be honest, I find a more low-key approach - daily office, observation to some extent of the seasons, feasts, fasts and festivals of the liturgical calendar -- far more 'satisfying' - if I can put it that way - than rolling up to support what might be someone else's agenda and 'vision' ...

That doesn't mean that you shouldn't engage in such things, though.

But dare I suggest - as you seem to have done yourself - that you steer away from super-spirituality and an over-readiness to identify what you do day by day with some of the more spectacular things we read about in the Bible - Naaman's healing, Peter's vision of clean and unclean food and so on ...

It reminds me of those worship-leaders who fall back on the example of David 'submitting to be more vile' and dancing before the Lord in his undies ... in order to encourage people to bop about in worship meetings ...

Exhortation is one thing. Encouragement is one thing. Ratcheting things up to the level of manipulation is something else ...

But I daresay you know that already ...

You can keep your 24/7 prayer meetings and your 'vision' and what-have-you, provided I'm also allowed to keep my distance from anything like that.

I still have the bruises and the scars.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 14876 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663

 - Posted      Profile for MrsBeaky   Author's homepage   Email MrsBeaky   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Just one observation especially for Gamaliel.
[Biased]
In my experience most 24-7 prayer rooms are affiliated to evangelical churches. But they don't have to be used solely for evangelical style prayer meetings.
When I joined the rota for the very first prayer room (it was largely through my daughters who were friends with the founders)I prayed in there on my own and in a contemplative style.
I once took a Roman Catholic friend in with me and she loved it. I also know a couple of high church priests who have held prayer vigils with members of the congregation signing up to take prayer slots over a day/ days.

IMO it can and does build a sense of community, it can and does deepen one's personal prayer life. It can also involve all the things you and I might find difficult!

--------------------
"It is better to be kind than right."

http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com

Posts: 627 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sure, I don't have an issue with any of that, Mrs Beaky.

Alongside the both/and not either/or angle I tend to take on these boards,I can sometimes engage in hyperbole - and I've deliberately overstated my case for rhetorical reasons on this thread.

These days, if I'm honest, I'd be more comfortable with a more contemplative or 'catholic' approach to these things rather than a 'Lord, we really just ...' evangelical one ...

That doesn't mean I'm 'against' evangelical prayer meetings, simply that I've participated in plenty of them in my time and prefer a different approach now.

I don't have an issue with angelfish or anyone else doing that stuff. There's a lot worse things they could do ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 14876 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I do have an issue in that it inverts the Rule of Benedict.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 15787 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Would Benedict object? Strikes me he was quite pragmatic. He allowed monks to nip out to go to the loo during lengthy vigils ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 14876 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It makes work out of prayer.

That has an opportunity cost.

But usually of nothing as we don't know what to do with our helpless privilege.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 15787 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884

 - Posted      Profile for angelfish   Email angelfish   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure, I don't have an issue with any of that, Mrs Beaky.

Alongside the both/and not either/or angle I tend to take on these boards,I can sometimes engage in hyperbole - and I've deliberately overstated my case for rhetorical reasons on this thread.

These days, if I'm honest, I'd be more comfortable with a more contemplative or 'catholic' approach to these things rather than a 'Lord, we really just ...' evangelical one ...

That doesn't mean I'm 'against' evangelical prayer meetings, simply that I've participated in plenty of them in my time and prefer a different approach now.

I don't have an issue with angelfish or anyone else doing that stuff. There's a lot worse things they could do ...

Careful Gamaliel, if you keep back-pedalling like this, your chain might fall off ("my heart was free, I rose went forth and followed thee!")

I don't think I've ever extolled the virtues of evangelical-style prayer meetings. I find them toe-curling at worst and boring at best. The 24-7 model is much more contemplative, and allows for individual preference/expression, whilst maintaining a corporate approach which builds community and unites the congregation (until one or two of them start grumbling and stirring up malaise against the new-fangled (even though it's old-fangled) 24-7 prayer room idea). I'm pretty sure my own church will largely be up for the challenge - that's the beauty of churches: the leaders of them get to know their congregations and can put forward ideas that are likely to be embraced and found to be helpful. Nobody will be led by the nose or coerced by Old Testament means to do anything (although I've just finished writing my "blinder of a sermon" and it is based on an OT passage. Hopefully nobody will go blind during it).

My hypothetical pastoral concern for your hypothetical stance in my congregation wasn't for your not wanting to sign up for an hour on my sign-up sheet, but rather for the implication that you did not see the value of corporate acts of prayer (which I think you were overstating to make a point).

I now realise you were using hyperbole. But you also seemed to be making a fair few assumptions about me, or that might just have been me being a sensitive flower, which is what I am, but I am afraid I can do nothing about that.

--------------------
"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"

Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663

 - Posted      Profile for MrsBeaky   Author's homepage   Email MrsBeaky   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Posted by angelfish:
I don't think I've ever extolled the virtues of evangelical-style prayer meetings. I find them toe-curling at worst and boring at best. The 24-7 model is much more contemplative, and allows for individual preference/expression, whilst maintaining a corporate approach which builds community and unites the congregation (until one or two of them start grumbling and stirring up malaise against the new-fangled (even though it's old-fangled) 24-7 prayer room idea).

This is what I was trying to say.
Interestingly, the prayer rooms I know most about eventually settled into a faithful smaller group who committed themselves to going there regularly after the initial flurry of enthusiasm had died down a bit. But that would probably be the same with any initiative- it's part of human nature

--------------------
"It is better to be kind than right."

http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com

Posts: 627 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Sure, and although that's part of the inevitability of the whole thing, it is also one of my concerns - because with the best will in the world it could create an inner-sanctum of 'keenies' and instead of building a sense of community it could have the opposite effect and create cliques and divisions within a congregation.

I'd far rather have some set services and let people pray however they see fit at other times.

But that's just me ...

I'm not sure I buy into the cumulative effect idea of prayer either - although I can see some biblical basis for such an idea ...

'Let's see, our church has put in X person hours of concentrated prayer this month ...'

Back at the time of the invasion of Iraq some one I knew sent out a missive saying that some evangelist had said that God had told him that if he could get 100,000 women praying then war would be averted.

I found myself wondering what would happen if God could only muster 999,999 women to pray? Would war be inevitable?

Of course, that's an extreme and bonkers example but I'm afraid I find something of that kind of mindset within some of these well-meaning but somewhat misguided initiatives.

I'm not saying that's the case at your church, angelfish, but pastorally it's something you may have to be prepared for ... Not just Eeyores like me but those whose enthusiasm runs away with them or who like to draw attention to themselves.

But you probably know that already ...

Good luck with it ... But watch out for the pitfalls.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 14876 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
One possibility is for a church to have various stations with different things going on. So you won't have a holy huddle of folks all doing the same thing, but different groups engaging in different spiritual activities at the same time, according to their

As for cliques, I think all churches have those. In MOTR ones it's not the 'holy' bunch versus the others, but people who work hard for the church versus the others. But in any case, church leaders in MOTR congregations are hardly going to complain if a new initiative creates a new group of particularly committed members, because the most committed are those who do the most to keep the church going and to pursue (and to fund) its ministries. In many cases the alternative isn't significantly greater church harmony, but a weaker congregational engagement and church ministry.

However, I accept that evangelical churches face other concerns. And they usually have bigger congregations, so I suppose that simply trying to get people involved is less of an issue.

Posts: 6109 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... I'm not sure I buy into the cumulative effect idea of prayer either - although I can see some biblical basis for such an idea ...

'Let's see, our church has put in X person hours of concentrated prayer this month ...'

Back at the time of the invasion of Iraq some one I knew sent out a missive saying that some evangelist had said that God had told him that if he could get 100,000 women praying then war would be averted.

I found myself wondering what would happen if God could only muster 999,999 women to pray? Would war be inevitable?

Of course, that's an extreme and bonkers example but I'm afraid I find something of that kind of mindset within some of these well-meaning but somewhat misguided initiatives.

I presume you meant a million G.?

Extreme and Bonnke's: I paid good money over 10 years ago to hear Reinhard's right hand ex-military man tell a roomful of women and me and another bloke that 7/7 was all his fault as they didn't have enough prayer warrior cover at the time. It would seem that the 14:00-15:00 slot was vacant on March 22nd too.

That kind of thinking might be extreme and bonkers but it's extremely common in evangelical Anglicanism and beyond.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 15787 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There's also the "fervency factor" - i.e. folk believing that, the louder you shout at God, the more you shake your fist and repeat the word "Lord", the more he is obliged to deliver the goods.

We can't bully God!

Posts: 8641 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It would be interesting to know what kind of church angelfish belongs to. The advice could then be tailored to his situation.

I.e., if there are any leanings towards prideful fervency then 24/7 prayer should be avoided at all costs. If it's just five old ladies who want to be helpful and perhaps stir themselves out of their despondency then a bit more group prayer might not be so disastrous for their souls or drive them to a fractious schism!

Posts: 6109 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, I'd be interested to know what kind of church angelfish belongs to - or leads?

I'm assuming angelfish is a she as I was informed that I'd have difficulty kicking him/her in the bollocks during my earlier more belligerent stage on this thread ...

Angelfish is right that I had made some assumptions - not simply that there was a pair of testicles to take a kick at - but that she/he represented some kind of fervent evangelical tradition. I was given that impression by terms like 'blinder of a sermon' and such like - which tend to draw a red mist down over my eyes ...

But I appreciate that angelfish may have been teasing/ironic to a certain extent ...

Equally, the tone of the proposed 24/7 prayer stuff sounds rather different to what I had mistakenly assumed ... ie a more reflective and contemplative approach than an eyes-screwed-shut 'Lord we really just ...' fest.

Whatever the case, I think SvitlanaV2 makes a good case for the use of 'stations' and variety and that cliques and factions exist in churches of all stripes - MoTR as well as fervent and fiery ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 14876 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884

 - Posted      Profile for angelfish   Email angelfish   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I belong to a church made up of people who love Jesus. We try to be more like Jesus. Then we sometimes remember to let God make us more like Jesus. We try to help each other to be more like Jesus.

It's about as close to what a church should be as I've ever found and about as far from what a church should be as I can imagine.

--------------------
"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"

Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Why is it far from what a church should be if its members are so focused on trying to be like Jesus? I do understand that you want to avoid labels, but obscurity doesn't necessarily help with communication either!

(Note that I'm not demanding any information that you'd rather keep private, just commenting on the oddness of your post.)

[ 19. May 2017, 19:17: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posts: 6109 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884

 - Posted      Profile for angelfish   Email angelfish   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
... because despite our efforts, none of us is very much like Him!

We don't have a label for our church. It's Bible-centred but unaffiliated to any other church/authority structure. A bit of an ecclesiastical loose canon, you might think.

--------------------
"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"

Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Been there, done that, angelfish, so you'll excuse my cynicism ... Or realism ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 14876 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
angelfish

So have you ever come across a church that looks the way you think a church should look??

My concern with the Gamaliel's counsel of caution above is more or less the following. I agree that most churches of most kinds are unable to address their deepest issues seriously and also deal with their various failings. They may therefore be wise to drop their expectations of prayer. However, the fact remains, ISTM, that the churches that do eventually grow and also flourish spiritually and in their mission are not usually those with low expectations. Quite the opposite.

What this means, I should think, is that you have to be highly aware of what your church is capable of. Where are you coming from? Is there a vision that everyone shares? Do you even have the people with the right sort of discernment to address these matters? What are your practical advantages as a church, etc.?

In your case, I'm curious to know what you'd actually like to achieve with your 24/7 prayer sessions. What's the vision you all have in mind? And what else are you doing to reach those goals?

Just curious!

Posts: 6109 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's simply that I don't particularly share the enthusiasm for such things ...

There are 76 posts on this thread -- 77 counting this one -- and 17 of them are yours. That's about 22%. Instead of pissing on something you're not enthusiastic about, how about you just move on?

quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
It's interesting that everyone focuses on the "middle of the night" thing (my church included) and possible problems arising there, such as danger, cold, tiredness - whereas to my mind the greatest difficultly will be filling the slots around commuting time - too early and late in the day for the retired lot, but totally inconvenient for the workers and parents.

Where I live lots of people have work schedules that don't make them commute during the usual times. You might be surprised at how this works out.

As for the middle of the night issues, I'll never underestimate those! I did the 1-3 am Maundy Thursday vigil slot one year, and my car got towed while I was praying. Turns out the church had a permanent 2 am tow order because the frat boys across the street kept parking in the church lot, and no one thought to warn me. So there I was, standing by myself on a very sketchy street corner at 3 am.

Posts: 24196 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Those are fair observations and reservations, SvitlanaV2. Believe me, I don't think churches should set out with a defeatist mentality ...

But just as some MoTR churches can suffer from a lack of vision - as it were - 'without a vision the people perish ...' so some of the more pietistic or revivalist outfits can suffer from what some call 'vision inflation' - or what I'd call 'over-egging the pudding.'

It would seem that angelfish is expecting some kind of tangible or lasting change as a result of the 24/7 prayer rota thing.

I, too, would be curious as to how that can be measured and quantified.

How would angelfish know when the goals or whatever they are have been achieved?

What are the results he/she expects?

How would 24/7 prayer achieve that as opposed, say, to a weekly prayer meeting or a fortnightly one?

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 14876 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'll bugger off if you prefer, Ruth W.

But I'm just asking questions. If they aren't helpful I'll clear off ...

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 14876 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well, my post was unnecessarily personal -- Ship's third commandment. My apologies.
Posts: 24196 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No need to apologise, RuthW. I wasn't offended and you are right, I do go on a fair bit ...

I will withdraw from this thread to give others a chance.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 14876 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't think churches should set out with a defeatist mentality ...

But just as some MoTR churches can suffer from a lack of vision - as it were - 'without a vision the people perish ...' so some of the more pietistic or revivalist outfits can suffer from what some call 'vision inflation' - or what I'd call 'over-egging the pudding.'

I suspect that a degree of 'vision inflation' is probably essential in Christian culture overall, because without it there would be very little 'vision' tout court.

So for every twenty (or 200, or 2000...) churches that over-egg the pudding, as you say, there may be one whose foolishness and brazenness actually bears fruit.

I can't see an alternative to this. As much as you might want to see just the right amount of 'vision', you yourself imply that few churches are likely to get it right. So they might as well just do what they can, what they feel able and inclined to do (or not, as the case may be) and see what happens as a result.

Posts: 6109 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884

 - Posted      Profile for angelfish   Email angelfish   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
SvitlanaV2 and Gamliel, I do appreciate your concern for me and my church and you raise some very important questions.

Gamaliel, you haven't "been there done that" in regards to my church. I suspect that independent churches are as varied as say Anglican congregations or Baptist ones or any other sort. We're all just groups of people in the end. I'm truly sorry that you've clearly had bad experiences somewhere, but you can't go around tarring everyone with the same brush and assuming that nothing good can come out of these places.

SvitlanaV2 Yes, I believe we do have amongst us enough discernment to filter out anything that's a product of the wackiest recesses of our own imaginations.

Briefly, the leadership have heard a clear word from God that He's got some ideas for us and the church needs to set aside time to listen to Him. 24-7 prayer is a practical outworking of that. Why 24-7, not just every night at 6pm? Well, why not? You could just as well ask "Why 2 hours every night for a week - why not 24-7 for a week?" It's a pattern of concentrated prayer we've chosen, that gives people the space to pray at a time convenient to them. We think our congregation will like it. As I've said above, it really wont matter if the room isn't in constant use - but it's there for anyone to use at any time.

Now, you might suspect that we silly sheep have imagined our shepherd's voice; that He's not going to provide us with any sort of idea of how He wants to bless our neighbourhood through us, and we'd be better off just reciting the same old stuff that makes us feel safe whilst knowing deep in our hearts that we're missing something. This is always a possibility, and I accept there is a risk of over-egging the pudding, as you put it. But you shouldn't assume that we are loonies who can't be responsible with a box of eggs. Some of us have over-egged in the past, or been hurt by things like that - we're quite a careful, wise bunch I think. Our greatest danger is doing things in our own strength then getting burnt-out. Time to listen and reflect is essential.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, yes?

--------------------
"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"

Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812

 - Posted      Profile for Gamaliel   Author's homepage   Email Gamaliel   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm saying nothing. I am withdrawing from this thread. I have some sympathy with SvitlanaV2's point-of-view and see no value in raining on angelfish's parade.

I am tempted to echo good Bishop Butler in his exchange with John Wesley. 'Sir, the pretending to revelations and gifts of the Holy Spirit is an horrid thing, a very horrid thing.'

History might be with Wesley rather than Butler, but even so, I share the bishop's caution.

Angelfish, no you are not loonies but my silence will be eloquent.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 14876 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The proof of the pudding will be in the inclusive incarnationality through holding all things in common.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 15787 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
SvitlanaV2 and Gamliel, I do appreciate your concern for me and my church and you raise some very important questions.

About claims.

Gamaliel, you haven't "been there done that" in regards to my church.

Yes he has, we all have, we see this magical thinking all the time.

I suspect that independent churches are as varied as say Anglican congregations or Baptist ones or any other sort. We're all just groups of people in the end. I'm truly sorry that you've clearly had bad experiences somewhere, but you can't go around tarring everyone with the same brush and assuming that nothing good can come out of these places.

SvitlanaV2 Yes, I believe we do have amongst us enough discernment to filter out anything that's a product of the wackiest recesses of our own imaginations.

That is fallacious in itself. Starting the process at all without full acknowledgement of the 100% humanity of it with no magic is straight in to the wackiest recess. By decent, intelligent, well meaning people.

Briefly, the leadership have heard a clear word from God that He's got some ideas for us and the church needs to set aside time to listen to Him.

No they haven't. And what was it? This is just another tired old form of cold reading, of projection of the idealized self.

24-7 prayer is a practical outworking of that. Why 24-7, not just every night at 6pm? Well, why not? You could just as well ask "Why 2 hours every night for a week - why not 24-7 for a week?" It's a pattern of concentrated prayer we've chosen, that gives people the space to pray at a time convenient to them. We think our congregation will like it. As I've said above, it really wont matter if the room isn't in constant use - but it's there for anyone to use at any time.

That's all ritualistically and therapeutically fine. There is NO magic in it. There is God's provision in WISDOM, without MAGIC.

Now, you might suspect that we silly sheep have imagined our shepherd's voice; that He's not going to provide us with any sort of idea of how He wants to bless our neighbourhood through us, and we'd be better off just reciting the same old stuff that makes us feel safe whilst knowing deep in our hearts that we're missing something. This is always a possibility, and I accept there is a risk of over-egging the pudding, as you put it. But you shouldn't assume that we are loonies who can't be responsible with a box of eggs. Some of us have over-egged in the past, or been hurt by things like that - we're quite a careful, wise bunch I think. Our greatest danger is doing things in our own strength then getting burnt-out. Time to listen and reflect is essential.

He is going to use what's staring you in the face. He is going to use your open, FULLY open, honest, vulnerable, ignorant intellects and feelings. If you let Him.

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating, yes?

It certainly will. If you let Him talk. Through YOUR open, HUMBLE, weak, ignorant minds. He wants to REASON with you. In the Spirit of a sound mind. The moment you invoke magic you've shut Him out.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 15787 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884

 - Posted      Profile for angelfish   Email angelfish   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

If you let Him talk. Through YOUR open, HUMBLE, weak, ignorant minds. He wants to REASON with you. In the Spirit of a sound mind. The moment you invoke magic you've shut Him out.

Sure. Who mentioned anything about magic (apart from yourself)?

--------------------
"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"

Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You did mate. A clear voice from God. That's a CLAIM. It's . not . true. By definition. Quote it please. Quote His clear voice.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 15787 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884

 - Posted      Profile for angelfish   Email angelfish   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
You did mate. A clear voice from God. That's a CLAIM. It's . not . true. By definition. Quote it please. Quote His clear voice.

I never claimed to have heard a voice9. That's you projecting your preconceptions onto me.

I don't follow your logic that a claim to hear from God is untrue by definition. You seem to be question-begging somewhat.

--------------------
"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"

Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I didn't say you did: "Briefly, the leadership have heard a clear word from God that He's got some ideas for us and the church needs to set aside time to listen to Him.". But you owned that others did. What question?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 15787 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884

 - Posted      Profile for angelfish   Email angelfish   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Question-begging means that your argument is based on premises that assume the truth of your conclusion. You seem to be saying that no-one can ever hear from God, therefore any claim to hear from God must be false. But you haven't proved the first statement.

Anyway, this is very far from my OP and I'm not really interested in a discussion of whether I (and my fellow church leaders) am or am not deluded. All I will say on the matter is that your assertion that God would communicate through our rational minds is not far from what I am speaking of when I say we "heard a clear word from God". Perhaps I should have used different words so that you wouldn't take me so literally - there was no big voice in the sky, it was a sequence of events, things we were reading and things we had thought of, coming together and making sense. A bit like Eutychus's experience of various readings and teachings pointing in a certain direction which led to 7 days of 24-hour prayer and ultimately the provision of premises. No magic involved at all - but perhaps you would be kind enough to explain what you mean by "magic" and then I would understand you better.

--------------------
"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"

Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Aye, we anecdotally autistic spectrum shallow end types can be a bit literal minded. As long as you're not, that's good.

And yes that is my premiss, that it literally does not occur and has not for over 1900 years.

Metaphoric, yearning, ritualistic, formulaic language is fine. But that wasn't obvious at all. You looked like you were away with the fairies of which I have seen - and been - MUCH.

Good luck.

I'd be interested to know what your reason in the Spirit of a sound mind comes up with.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 15787 | From: More Corieltauvi than Dobunni now. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Aijalon
Shipmate
# 18777

 - Posted      Profile for Aijalon   Email Aijalon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
This is a subject that has affected my life. As a resident of Kansas City or nearby KC for my whole life, I can tell you about an early 24/7 Prayer Room movement that has been going on here, and I can tell you that it has damaged people close to me.

I am working through this bitterness and it will flare up on these boards which look like a nice fit for me so far! [Yipee]

Angelfish... now that you have heard my caveat and are quite free to throw out all that I say, let me simply ask you to be extremely cautious.

I do endorse prayer meetings, obviously. However, the effort to set up a "payer room" in any sense of the 24/7 style, will invite what I believe to be a spirit of error and confusion.

If you truly just want to get a prayer meeting going, I would invite you to remove the label of "24/7" from it, and let people naturally include themselves on account of feeling connected to the body and to the head of the body by way of a prayer vigil.

The 24/7 label, as seen on the neato website... smacks to me of feeding on youthful hormonal energy and ending in prayer becoming a way of entertaining ourselves. As far as doctrine, simply think of what it is that the crowd is feeding on. Is it the sheep-feeding Jesus urged Peter to be doing? or some other kind?

And in the end, I suspect that this movement is connected to the widespread movement of false prophecy rampaging accross the world today (Revelation 9).

I am more than happy to detail my persona experience with this, and why I think the movement is a breeding ground for cultism.

--------------------
I'm not a homophone

Posts: 124 | From: Kansas City | Registered: May 2017  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools