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Source: (consider it) Thread: "The Left" cares too much about [insert cause here]
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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The right wingers on this thread are doing a good job of demonstrating what a bunch of hateful lying tossers they are. Keep it up lads.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Holy Smoke
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Yes, I want to "impose" values of caring for other people, looking after them, fighting for their health and education, fighting for decent jobs, fighting for them not to be abused....

We can explain, persuade, cajole, but it is up to the countries involved (including some of our former colonies) to work out their own social values and mores. That's what 'independence' means. To do more than that on our part is just arrogance, IMO. If you don't like their laws and customs, don't go to live there.
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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Please be so kind as to show me an example of a leftist who accepts FGM on cultural relativist grounds.

Germaine Greer.

Also child marriage.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The left cares too much about social issues and not near enough about economic justice.

This confuses me. Economic justice **IS** a social issue.
My thoughts exactly when I read that comment. Maybe I'm hanging around with the wrong sort of lefties, but the main issues we have are the availability of affordable/social housing (which is social and economic, if you wish to make that division), zero-hour contracts and other exploitative employment practices, lack of investment in education, welfare, health, public transport, etc. About the only issue that has recently been discussed that can genuinely be called a "social issue" without also being about "economic justice" has been corporal punishment of children (and, if we were given a choice between banning the hitting of children and banning zero-hours contracts then the zero hours contracts would go).

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Kaplan Corday
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This thread reminds me of the famous quote (attribution uncertain); "I wish I were as certain of one thing as.... is of everything".

What a combination of egregious virtue-signalling, and intolerance of ambiguity (the signature feature of the authoritarian personality) over the meaning of left and right!

I support progressive taxation and the welfare state (health, education, housing, unemployment relief, etc), which makes me a lefty, but oppose the total abolition of private property and the market, which to 'real' lefties makes me a righty.

I support the legalisation of SSM for those who want it on liberal, pluralist, civil rights grounds (on the analogy of religious freedom) which makes me a lefty, but regard SSM as immoral and meaningless, which makes me a righty.

I resent the vilification of the overwhelming majority of Muslims (including personal friends) as terrorists, which makes me a lefty, but also resent moralistic disapproval of open discussion of possible Islamic elements in Islamism, which makes me a righty.

I support the maximisation of refugee immigration, which makes me a lefty, but also support control of borders and screening of applicants, which makes me a righty.

I abhor racism, which makes me a lefty, but that includes abhorrence of anti-Semitism posturing as anti-Zionism, which makes me a righty.

I support maximisation of free speech, which makes me a lefty, but that includes contempt for attempts to violently silence unpopular speakers on campuses, which makes me a righty.

On how many issues do you have to toe the party line - and what, in each case, does toeing the line involve - before you are unambiguously left or right?

[ 14. May 2017, 10:00: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

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Jay-Emm
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I'd imagine it's the ones that lead the party line that dominate. Karl mentioned that 'not hitting children' was more important for him than 'organizing working hours' (in this case they ar both 'left' ish, but had it been 'the right to hit children to discipline them' is more important than the right to 'organizing working hours', then that would suggest when push turns to shove he tends to the right.

Quite a few of your answers have you not in the extreme right (para 1) and not in the extreme left (clause 2) which still leaves the center. It would be more interesting, if you'd picked ones that were more positive.

On your economy one, I think even the Soviets would be counted as right wing by your 'real leftists'. While traditional conservationism could pass as being left.

Similarly on the SSM, (after all it was Cameroon that brought it in, but that was because he could count on on the centre left and left left to help the centre right).

*depending on the definition of total, abolish,private property.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Wasn't that the rocket scientist?

[ 14. May 2017, 12:12: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Jay-Emm
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Wasn't that the rocket scientist?

Whoops, your pic is on the top of the page when the words are on the bottom.

[just listening to Sat Night Fri, and it's discussing the alleged bias of BBC. FWIW on some of the shows I can see the LW bias, on some of the politics it's the other way]

[ 14. May 2017, 12:28: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]

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Alan Cresswell

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I mentioned both hitting children and zero-hour contracts. But, also that ending zero-hour contracts was the more important issue.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Jay-Emm
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I mentioned both hitting children and zero-hour contracts. But, also that ending zero-hour contracts was the more important issue.

Oh.
I read "Zero hour contracts would go" as being that you'd take the proposal to abolish it off your manifesto (as the less important issue), rather than put the proposal in practice to take ZHC's* out of reality (as the more important issue).

Double apologies. I was only using it as a handy (hypothetical) example of two policies in 'competition'.

*zero hour contracts mean zero hour contracts, (not proposals about zero hour contracts)

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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Corporate tax breaks, low tax rates for the wealthy and outright tax avoidance can be viewed as welfare. Military contracting which subsidizes R&D so that spin off products cost little to develop before selling to the public is a form of welfare for the already rich.

Is it only here that conservative gov'ts run up deficits which nearly bankrupt provinces and the country, and it takes responsible left of centre gov'ts to fix? Usually taking a decade.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Yes, I want to "impose" values of caring for other people, looking after them, fighting for their health and education, fighting for decent jobs, fighting for them not to be abused....

We can explain, persuade, cajole, but it is up to the countries involved (including some of our former colonies) to work out their own social values and mores. That's what 'independence' means. To do more than that on our part is just arrogance, IMO. If you don't like their laws and customs, don't go to live there.
Auschwitz. Sorry, but you made me do it. This attitude cannot be universalized. It is not arrogant to want another country to stop human rights violations enacted on its own people.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

I support progressive taxation and the welfare state (health, education, housing, unemployment relief, etc), which makes me a lefty, but oppose the total abolition of private property and the market, which to 'real' lefties makes me a righty.

No True Lefty Fallacy. Most Lefties in the UK and US (presumably Canada and Australia as well) also fel this way. Though liekly would disagree as to degree.
quote:

I support the legalisation of SSM for those who want it on liberal, pluralist, civil rights grounds (on the analogy of religious freedom) which makes me a lefty, but regard SSM as immoral and meaningless, which makes me a righty.

Fair play.
quote:

I resent the vilification of the overwhelming majority of Muslims (including personal friends) as terrorists, which makes me a lefty, but also resent moralistic disapproval of open discussion of possible Islamic elements in Islamism, which makes me a righty.

What about the Christian elements in Christianism? (Christism?) The bible has been used to justify acting like shit for centuries, why are Christians not treated the same way?
quote:

I support the maximisation of refugee immigration, which makes me a lefty, but also support control of borders and screening of applicants, which makes me a righty.

Many Lefties also support screening. You know, like the process that already goes on.
quote:

I abhor racism, which makes me a lefty, but that includes abhorrence of anti-Semitism posturing as anti-Zionism, which makes me a righty.

It is a fallacy to say that disapproval of Israel's policies makes one anti-Semetic.
quote:

I support maximisation of free speech, which makes me a lefty, but that includes contempt for attempts to violently silence unpopular speakers on campuses, which makes me a righty.

Free speech =/= hate speech.
quote:

On how many issues do you have to toe the party line - and what, in each case, does toeing the line involve - before you are unambiguously left or right?

You are, by your posting history on this site, firmly to the right of centre.
Being, somewhat, reasonable doesn't change that. In other words, not being Hitler doesn't make you Gandhi.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Please be so kind as to show me an example of a leftist who accepts FGM on cultural relativist grounds.

Germaine Greer.

Also child marriage.

She is also transphobic. Are you accusing the Left entire of being that as well?
All the lefties I know, and most of the righties, oppose FGM. As asked, you found an example, fair play. But what you have not done is proven your initial case.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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quetzalcoatl
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I don't really understand some of these equations. Is free speech synonymous with being left-wing? News to me.

Same with abolition of private property, screening of immigrants, and so on.

It sounds like a bad dose of No True Scotsman, and also straw manning.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:


But immigration and gay rights are global issues. So maybe they get more global coverage than purely national issues.

Global issues? How many times you hear about the situation of women and gays in Saudi Arabia? How many times do you see lefties concerned about this "global issues"?

You are not concerned with people, you are concerned with a cultural agenda. [/QB]

We hear a lot about them from the left e.g. Jasmin Alibi-Brown, Amnesty international.

Meanwhile, the right sells arms to Saudi Arabia to keep them oppressed.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Please be so kind as to show me an example of a leftist who accepts FGM on cultural relativist grounds.

Germaine Greer.

Also child marriage.

Well OK, I suppose I invited that. But I don't get the impression that the left are particularly interested in Germaine Greer these days.

IME the politics of FGM seem to go:

Left-winger: The government doesn't do anything about FGM because it doesn't affect rich white men in the City.

Right-winger: The government doesn't do anything about FGM because it's too politically correct to risk offending Muslims but of course you're not allowed to say that any more.

quote:
What a combination of egregious virtue-signalling, and intolerance of ambiguity (the signature feature of the authoritarian personality) over the meaning of left and right!
... and yet you are the one making generalisations about left-wingers supporting cultural relativism and FGM? [Confused] [Confused] [Confused]

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:

Right-winger: The government doesn't do anything about FGM because it's too politically correct to risk offending Muslims but of course you're not allowed to say that any more.

Or rather "this thing that I keep mentioning on TV is the one thing we aren't allowed to say any more"
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
not being Hitler

You smooth old flatterer, you!

Do you really mean it, or do you toss around compliments like that to all and sundry?

Well, not to be outdone in the social niceties, I'm going to reciprocate: you're not as bad as Pol Pot.

There, I've said it.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:

Right-winger: The government doesn't do anything about FGM because it's too politically correct to risk offending Muslims but of course you're not allowed to say that any more.

Or rather "this thing that I keep mentioning on TV is the one thing we aren't allowed to say any more"
[Killing me] [Overused] [Killing me] [Overused] [Killing me]

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Free speech =/= hate speech.

Yes it does, at times.

Free speech can never be absolute, but if it as any meaning at all it has to include the freedom to disseminate what reasonable people would regard as genuine hate speech, such the copies of The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion which I saw for sale in a lunar right bookshop (alongside copies of an "exposure" of Anne Frank's diary), and the copy of Mein Kampf on my bookshelf ("Hmmm", I can hear you thinkng,"Perhaps I spoke too soon, and he IS Hitler after all!")

The other problem is definition.

One of the most common forms of current hate speech in the West is anti-Christian vilification, but it will never be proscribed as such (and I wouldn't want it to be) because it is so fashionable.

On the other hand, merely expressing a belief that God in the Bible disapproves of homosexual practices is condemned as "hate speech", which trivialises genuine homophobia in places such as Uganda and Islamic theocracies.

Nothing represents such a betrayal of historic left-wing core principle as the present left's retreat from support for free speech.

Orwell must be spinning in his grave.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Free speech =/= hate speech.

Yes it does, at times.

Free speech can never be absolute, but if it as any meaning at all it has to include the freedom to disseminate what reasonable people would regard as genuine hate speech, such the copies of The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion which I saw for sale in a lunar right bookshop (alongside copies of an "exposure" of Anne Frank's diary), and the copy of Mein Kampf on my bookshelf ("Hmmm", I can hear you thinkng,"Perhaps I spoke too soon, and he IS Hitler after all!")

People are free to hate whoever. They should not be free to incite maltreatment.

quote:

One of the most common forms of current hate speech in the West is anti-Christian vilification, but it will never be proscribed as such (and I wouldn't want it to be) because it is so fashionable.

No. Christians as a group are rarely vilified, IME. Those who try to run other people's lives are, but there is not a movement to prevent them from running their own lives.
quote:

On the other hand, merely expressing a belief that God in the Bible disapproves of homosexual practices is condemned as "hate speech",

If it were not backed by efforts to suppress LGBT+, perhaps it wouldn't be.
quote:

which trivialises genuine homophobia in places such as Uganda and Islamic theocracies.

Bullshit. The same actors support homophobia in Africa. They are part of the same force.
quote:

Nothing represents such a betrayal of historic left-wing core principle as the present left's retreat from support for free speech.

Again, were it speech without action, you might have a point. As it is not, you do not.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

No. Christians as a group are rarely vilified

Bullshit.

You need to get out more.

quote:
If it were not backed by efforts to suppress LGBT+, perhaps it wouldn't be.

Again bullshit.

It is condemned and attacked per se even when unaccompanied by any activism.

quote:
The same actors support homophobia in Africa. They are part of the same force.

Third bullshit in a row - give that man a cigar.

No doubt occasionally true, but overwhelmingly not the case.

I know countless people who believe homosexual practice to be wrong, but not a single person who wants to recriminalise it here or anywhere else.

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Kaplan Corday
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The double standard of the cultural relativism found in some sections of today's left has historical precedent.

In the West communists were always a minute component of the left, and there was always a healthy and decent anti-communist left, but there remained nonetheless too much rationalisation and ambivalence toward communism amongst the ordinary centre left.

While at university during the late 1960s I participated in a number of anti-Vietnam War demonstrations as part of a contingent who loathed the Hanoi regime, but had decided (rightly or wrongly) that its subjugation of the South was a lesser evil than the continuation of the war and the resultant agony of the Vietnamese people.

Most of the demonstrators, however, were were quite starry-eyed and romantic about Vietnamese communism ("Uncle" Ho was as creepy in kind, if not degree, as the Soviet Union's "Uncle" Joe) despite the fact that its victory would place the Vietnamese people under conditions (regimentation, loss of democracy and civil liberties) which they themselves would find intolerable.

In other words, their implicit attitude was: "We wouldn't want to live under communism, but it's great for Asians".

A similar racist equivocation was exposed by the posters of Mao, history's worst mass murderer, found on the walls of student houses.

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simontoad
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I just want to point out that Germaine Greer is 78. She can't be expected to have kept up with every single change in social mores, especially given her grumpy and aggressive persona.

My mother went to school with Germaine, and tells stories about how she used to persecute the nuns, who would let Germaine get away with anything because she was obviously hugely talented. My mother believes that all the nuns at Star of the Sea were feminists, eager for their girls to get ahead and beat the blokes.

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Human

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

No. Christians as a group are rarely vilified

Bullshit.

You need to get out more.

Perhaps you have a very different definition of "vilified". Because, I agree with lilBuddha. There are parts of the Christian community and individual Christians who are regularly vilified - usually because they call that upon themselves. But, the most common attitude towards Christians, and what most of us have only ever experienced, is to be ignored. I suppose if you think that everyone needs to listen to whatever nonsense you wish to spout just because you're Christian, or maybe just limit that to what the leadership of your church says, then maybe you want to call being ignored as "vilification", personally I would say that's stretching the definition.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
My mother went to school with Germaine, and tells stories about how she used to persecute the nuns, who would let Germaine get away with anything because she was obviously hugely talented. My mother believes that all the nuns at Star of the Sea were feminists, eager for their girls to get ahead and beat the blokes.

She was just a few years ahead of me at uni. She (and the Push generally) were on the wane by then, but her name was still not one to be taken in vain. Of course 16 yr old private school boys, even those who'd played in the 4ths of both cricket and rugby, were basically below their contemplation.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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hatless

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I searched for Greer's views on FGM and found a paper from 1999. In it she makes no judgment for or against, but questions the thinking of those who do oppose it. Why are they silent about male GM, i.e. circumcision, she wonders.

Clearly she is not typical of leftie opinion on this subject, which means the hunt for pro-FGM lefties must continue.

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My crazy theology in novel form

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

One of the most common forms of current hate speech in the West is anti-Christian vilification, but it will never be proscribed as such (and I wouldn't want it to be) because it is so fashionable.


There's plenty of ridicule, based on ignorance and, yes, prejudice, but it rarely reaches the level of vilification. Even the level of vilification dished out to "The Left" by certain Christians and Christian groups.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

No. Christians as a group are rarely vilified

Bullshit.

You need to get out more. ...

Perhaps you could give us examples of Christians being regularly profiled by e.g. airport security or law enforcement. Or point to an executive order barring travellers from predominantly Christian countries.

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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

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lilBuddha
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What it amounts to, IME, is the loss of privileged status. Which somehow works out to oppression in the minds of some.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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AndyHB
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May I suggest that the answer can be found by adding 'itself' in place of the brackets in the thread title. [Biased]

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by AndyHB:
May I suggest that the answer can be found by adding 'itself' in place of the brackets in the thread title. [Biased]

Cute. But that is the unhidden cause of the Right.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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AndyHB
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The right wingers on this thread are doing a good job of demonstrating what a bunch of hateful lying tossers they are. Keep it up lads.

Karl, they're just aping the Lefties here
[Biased] Back in the 1970s, in his play 'Destiny', David Edgar pointed out how alike the two political extremes are. He gave these words to one of his Left-wing characters:

"Right is Left and Left is right."

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AndyHB
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quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Perhaps you could give us examples of Christians being regularly profiled by e.g. airport security or law enforcement. Or point to an executive order barring travellers from predominantly Christian countries.

Soror, for as long as I've been alive - and that's over 60 years - Christians have been told by the press, by society in general and even by some politicians (both leftie and rightie) that its all very well for them to practise their religion (note, seldom do they use the more correct term - faith) in private, but under no circumstances are they to talk about it in public or bring it into the public domain. Whilst I believe that we ought to be staying in the EU, many of the attitudes to faith stem from diktats that have been foisted upon us by the EU bureaucracy, especially the unelected Commissioners.

You don't need profiling, or executive orders because they can be found unlawful. Doing so to these diktats is far less easy.

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by AndyHB:
many of the attitudes to faith stem from diktats that have been foisted upon us by the EU bureaucracy, especially the unelected Commissioners.

I would be interested in knowing whether you have any concrete examples of such dictates, or are you just repeated un-founded Mail-isms of the same level of truthfulness as "immigrants are stealing our jobs"?

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by AndyHB:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The right wingers on this thread are doing a good job of demonstrating what a bunch of hateful lying tossers they are. Keep it up lads.

Karl, they're just aping the Lefties here
[Biased] Back in the 1970s, in his play 'Destiny', David Edgar pointed out how alike the two political extremes are. He gave these words to one of his Left-wing characters:

"Right is Left and Left is right."

This always seems rather facile to me. I suppose you could say that Trotsky is like Franco, but not to those suffering under them. But then would you say that Macron is like Le Pen?

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
This always seems rather facile to me. I suppose you could say that Trotsky is like Franco, but not to those suffering under them.

First, this is an odd comparison, because both were arseholes, but Franco was the undisputed dictator of Spain, while Trotsky was never dictator of the Soviet Union.

Secondly, if you are in the process of being imprisoned, enslaved, starved, tortured or facing execution, the ideological nuances of your oppressor are likely to fade into the background.

Seems rather facile to me.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Secondly, if you are in the process of being imprisoned, enslaved, starved, tortured or facing execution, the ideological nuances of your oppressor are likely to fade into the background.

Then what you are talking about is brutality. Just because at the brutality end of the scale Left and Right fade into relative non-importance doesn't mean that away from those extremes they have no meaning. Context.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Secondly, if you are in the process of being imprisoned, enslaved, starved, tortured or facing execution, the ideological nuances of your oppressor are likely to fade into the background.

Then what you are talking about is brutality. Just because at the brutality end of the scale Left and Right fade into relative non-importance doesn't mean that away from those extremes they have no meaning. Context.
By citing Franco and Trotsky, quetzalcoatl was obviously talking about extremes.

Context.

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lilBuddha
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Let's wheel this back to the context of this thread, which is about neither the former Soviet Union or fascist Spain.
In the context of this thread, the absuses of the right and the left are not the same. More people will suffer under the right than under the left. By design.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Free speech =/= hate speech.

If you're not free to say what you want regardless of how unpopular or hateful it may be, you don't have free speech.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Free speech =/= hate speech.

If you're not free to say what you want regardless of how unpopular or hateful it may be, you don't have free speech.
Even if you shout "Fire! Fire!" in a crowded theatre?* No you have to ensure people take responsibility for the likely consequences of what they say. Another example is that of wishing someone dead, because the police will not dismiss such a flippant line as "free speech" if the person at the end of the wish subsequently dies suddenly. The "wisher" will definitely be helping Mr Plod with his enquiries for a hour or three.

*It's a cliché, but everyone understands this.

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Alan Cresswell

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Rights always carry an implicit responsibility, to use those rights in a responsible manner. Sometimes when people start using those rights in an irresponsible manner it is necessary to be more explicit about what those responsibilities are - eg: by defining irresponsible uses. In the case of free speech, one of the effects of irresponsible use of the right to speak freely has been the need to define hate speech and declare it irresponsible and unacceptable. You can add to that list things like libel and slander, which are other examples of irresponsible speech.

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Liopleurodon

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What often gets mistaken as "lefties don't care about the women in Saudi Arabia" is actually "lefties think that the women in Saudi Arabia should be at the forefront of their own liberation". Basically, nobody thinks that the situation is fine as it is. But if we're going to help change happen, we need to listen to those actual Saudi women and what it is that they want, and not just assume that we know and we can impose it. When you listen to activists on the ground, they often feel strongly that they would like to drive, to get an education, and to have more freedom to travel. But they're actually not too fussed about changing the way they dress. When westerners try to get involved, they/we tend to focus on Saudi women's clothing rather than the things they actually want to change. We need to find those Saudi women's voices and amplify and support them rather than impose western culture.

But this gets relayed to the rightwingers as "LEFTIES LOVE THE BURQA!"

Also if anyone thinks that left wingers of 2017 love Germaine Greer, you are very, very mistaken. See also: Julie Burchill, Julie Bindel.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Secondly, if you are in the process of being imprisoned, enslaved, starved, tortured or facing execution, the ideological nuances of your oppressor are likely to fade into the background.

Then what you are talking about is brutality. Just because at the brutality end of the scale Left and Right fade into relative non-importance doesn't mean that away from those extremes they have no meaning. Context.
By citing Franco and Trotsky, quetzalcoatl was obviously talking about extremes.

Context.

Yes. That's what I said. Content.

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“Religion doesn't fuck up people, people fuck up religion.”—lilBuddha

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Most of the demonstrators, however, were were quite starry-eyed and romantic about Vietnamese communism ("Uncle" Ho was as creepy in kind, if not degree, as the Soviet Union's "Uncle" Joe) despite the fact that its victory would place the Vietnamese people under conditions (regimentation, loss of democracy and civil liberties) which they themselves would find intolerable.

I'd say that portraying the Diệm or Thiệu governments as democratic and great respecters of civil liberties is kind of "starry-eyed and romantic".

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
On the other hand, merely expressing a belief that God in the Bible disapproves of homosexual practices is condemned as "hate speech", which trivialises genuine homophobia in places such as Uganda and Islamic theocracies.

Arguments of the form "The Left cares too much about . . . " generally fall into two categories. The first is a kind of monomania which can't tolerate any discussion of anything other than [pet issue]. "How can you discuss [not pet issue] when [pet issue] is so much more important?"

The other follows the same general format, but seems more oriented towards derailing any kind of discussion of anything. "Y is worse than X, so why are you wasting your time with X?" The interlocutor usually doesn't really care that much about Y, but wants to avoid any close examination of X. The big problem here is that you can usually think of something that's worse than whatever it is that you're currently discussing, so virtually everything is something that gets cared about too much. It's also based on the faulty premise that you can care about more than one thing, sort of a 'walk and chew gum at the same time' premise.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I'd say that portraying the Diệm or Thiệu governments as democratic and great respecters of civil liberties is kind of "starry-eyed and romantic".

You could have included Ky, and yes it would have been "starry-eyed and romantic", except that I never encountered anyone ever doing it.

There was lots of waving of Viet Cong, ie National Liberation(sic) Front flags, but I never saw a South Vietnamese flag.

The South Vietnamese administrations were far from ideal, but they would have been a lesser evil than communism had they been separable form a perpetuation of the war.

There is an analogy here with the Korean War.

South Korea's Syngman Rhee regime was appalling too, but it was preferable to Kim Il Sung's, and without the rigidity of totalitarian communism to freeze it into a Cold War time warp, in time South Korea was able to evolve into a prosperous democracy.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

South Korea's Syngman Rhee regime was appalling too, but it was preferable to Kim Il Sung's, and without the rigidity of totalitarian communism to freeze it into a Cold War time warp, in time South Korea was able to evolve into a prosperous democracy.

South Korea didn't have the same economic downfall as North Korea because America was a better provider than China.
South Korea's evolution into a prosperous democracy was do to pressure from the left. Park Chung-hee did improve the country's overall economy whilst being a dictatorial douche. But the gap between rich and poor continued to widen, especially under Chun Doo-hwan.
Stability only really began with the Sixth Republic, (SIXTH!*)with the broadening of democratic, aka Lefty, policies.

*Six different republics since just after WWII. Yeah, Rhee led to such stability.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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