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Source: (consider it) Thread: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread
Gramps49
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# 16378

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In an effort to buddy up to the Russians, Trump goes and reveals classified information, dealing with the possibility of the use of laptops to hide explosives.

The deal of it is, based on the information, the Russians will be able to reverse engineer the data and learn a lot about the intelligence gathering capabilities of the United States and its Allies.

And there is no such thing as collusion with the Russians. Nothing to see here, just move on.

[edited thread title]

[ 17. May 2017, 05:11: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Nicolemr
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Outrageous. He should have already been impeached before this could happen.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Pangolin Guerre
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I didn't notice mention of the use of laptops as IEDs in the piece. (British customs officer at Heathrow once asked me suspiciously why, as an editor/writer, I didn't have my laptop (I guess that it didn't occur to him that I could buy one, or, just, you know, use pen and paper). I guess that I won't have to answer that one anymore.)

The funny thing about this current accusation is, that as much as GWB was about 40-60W, he was never accused of this sort of inanity. How many "small gaffes" must accumulate before the aggregate reaches critical mass and the Praetorians lose patience with Trump?

[ 16. May 2017, 01:21: Message edited by: Pangolin Guerre ]

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Gramps49
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PG

You are right, it only says Trump revealed information about an ISIS operation. If you go to the link provided in the Times Article to a previous Washington post article, Trump tells his Russian friends, "You won't believe the intelligence I am getting..." and then spills the beans.


CNN, though, reports it was about the ISIS plan to use laptops to carry explosives on planes.

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lilBuddha
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This isn't one of his silly gafs. Betraying an intelligence source like this is incredibly stupid.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Boogie

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Why is this no surprise whatsoever?

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Mudfrog
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If true.

How come the Washington Post has got wind of this an hour after the meeting?

The White House has denied it - which is perhaps not a wise thing to do if the Russians decided to tell their side of the story and confirm it - if true, of course.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
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mr cheesy
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Just taking a break from reading a rather appalling report about abuse in Australia..

In fact the WH hasn't denied the content of the WP report, they've just said the President never did something that the report hasn't alleged that he did do - name/out the intelligence source.

To oversimplify the report, it is said that the POTUS was boasting to the Russians about his access to fantastic intelligence and gave as an example something about a specific threat in a specific place. Enough information to identify the source and to put the foreign intelligence service network (who never gave permission for the release of the information to the Russians) at risk.

It also appears to be true that the POTUS can tell anyone he likes about "classified" information, the problem is that intelligence sources might be rather more hesitant about sharing what they know if they think blabber mouth is going to be telling the Russians about it.

The only saving grace I can see here is that Trump seems unable to distinguish between things he sees on Fox News and things he sees in intelligence reports, so he's just as likely to be spreading rumour and false news as real intelligence.

I guess the Russians know that and presumably take all that he tells them as potentially tainted.

[ 16. May 2017, 07:38: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Just taking a break from reading a rather appalling report about abuse in Australia..

In fact the WH hasn't denied the content of the WP report, they've just said the President never did something that the report hasn't alleged that he did do - name/out the intelligence source.

To oversimplify the report, it is said that the POTUS was boasting to the Russians about his access to fantastic intelligence and gave as an example something about a specific threat in a specific place. Enough information to identify the source and to put the foreign intelligence service network (who never gave permission for the release of the information to the Russians) at risk.

It also appears to be true that the POTUS can tell anyone he likes about "classified" information, the problem is that intelligence sources might be rather more hesitant about sharing what they know if they think blabber mouth is going to be telling the Russians about it.

The only saving grace I can see here is that Trump seems unable to distinguish between things he sees on Fox News and things he sees in intelligence reports, so he's just as likely to be spreading rumour and false news as real intelligence.

I guess the Russians know that and presumably take all that he tells them as potentially tainted.

If any of our "sources" is harmed or taken in for questioning then Trump deserves a fork up his butt. Rook, your adopted country needs you now.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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mr cheesy
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Update in case anyone cares: Trump has tweeted that he shared some intelligence with the Russians because he had the "right" to do so as POTUS.

That's nice, isn't it?

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arse

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simontoad
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I thought the Russians were good guys though. Obviously the women are atrocious.

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Human

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
If true.

How come the Washington Post has got wind of this an hour after the meeting?

Most of the speculation is that the leak was a deliberate decision by some person or group within the U.S. intelligence community to prevent the Russians from using the threat of revealing this intelligence failure (in multiple senses of the term) for blackmail. You can't blackmail someone with information that's already public.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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mr cheesy
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Someone who was there leaked it. Which is going to make Trump very pissed off.

Or possibly, I suppose, some covert listening was going on. Which is also likely to make Trump very pissed off.

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arse

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Update in case anyone cares: Trump has tweeted that he shared some intelligence with the Russians because he had the "right" to do so as POTUS.

That's nice, isn't it?

So they've gone from denying the fact (NB: not its legality or otherwise) to admitting it in the space of a few hours.

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Hedgehog

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Update in case anyone cares: Trump has tweeted that he shared some intelligence with the Russians because he had the "right" to do so as POTUS.

That statement is just the same as you noted in your prior post: technically the President can disclose "classified" information to anybody he chooses. So he does have the "right" to do it. He is not being accused of doing anything illegal--just mind-numbingly stupid.

AIUI, the source is one that has been leery sharing any information with the U.S. I guess the source is uncertain we can be trusted. And then the President goes and blabs it to another party that the source did not choose to give the info to. The logical consequence of this is that this source and others like this source will be far less likely to disclose intel to the U.S. in the future--because we really can't be trusted with it.

So, in bragging about the "great intel" he gets, Trump has seriously damaged our ability to get that "great intel."

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Og, King of Bashan

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Update in case anyone cares: Trump has tweeted that he shared some intelligence with the Russians because he had the "right" to do so as POTUS.

That's nice, isn't it?

So they've gone from denying the fact (NB: not its legality or otherwise) to admitting it in the space of a few hours.
This is standard procedure at this point. Story comes out, White House advisers go into crisis mode and come up with a carefully worded denial, then Trump goes full Leeroy Jenkins and blows the whole thing.

All we need now is for Senator McConnell to say that this doesn't change anything, and we can wait for the next one.

On the lighter side, our local gem of a newscaster tweeted last night, "Can every elected official in Colorado who expressed concern about Clinton's emails just send me a statement so I'm not making 300 calls?"

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Pangolin Guerre
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I'm a little surprised that there is no speculation as to who the ally is. Two and a half occur to me. Or am I being obtuse? ("Yes" is an acceptable answer.)
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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
I'm a little surprised that there is no speculation as to who the ally is. Two and a half occur to me. Or am I being obtuse? ("Yes" is an acceptable answer.)

I think we can be fairly sure it is someone who doesn't want the Russians knowing how they're getting intelligence about IS.

Which could be because if the Russians knew, they'd be sharing it with their best mate Assad.

Which probably means it is either one of the dissident anti-Assad groups or the Israelis. Given that the Israelis have previously talked about their worries about sharing things with the Americans - and the risks of it being shared with Assad via the Russians - I think that's got to be one of the most likely scenarios.

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arse

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Hedgehog

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quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
I'm a little surprised that there is no speculation as to who the ally is. Two and a half occur to me. Or am I being obtuse? ("Yes" is an acceptable answer.)

As I recall, the Washington Post made a point of stating that it was not disclosing details like that--for the same reason that the President should not have. The information remains highly classified for mere mortals who are not President and I think most media outlets are treading carefully not to be accused of divulging too much.

And, really, the name of the ally is not the story. The loose lips of the President hurting U.S. interests and betraying his country to curry more favor with his Russian buddies is the story.

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Og, King of Bashan

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If it was Turkey, that meeting with President Erdogan this morning should be fun for all parties involved.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:


And, really, the name of the ally is not the story. The loose lips of the President hurting U.S. interests and betraying his country to curry more favor with his Russian buddies is the story.

The really stupid part of this whole story is this: the POTUS has a reputation for spreading as much rumour as fact. If the WP had not run with this story it is possible that the Russians might have shrugged it off as rumour he'd picked up from Fox News.

But in running the story, the WP has now encouraged Trump to admit that he told the Russians something. Which might in turn mean that the Russians give it more credence than they did during the meeting.

Or maybe it is a double-bluff and someone is using Trump's egoism against him. For whatever reason, someone wanted the Russians to swallow something, so told Trump (who, it seems, is unable to distinguish between intelligence and rumour), knowing that he'd tell the Russians.

We now have denials by senior members of the administration, but only confirmation by Trump himself. Is it too much of a mind-bending idea to think that this is a set-up and that Trump is too far up his own anus to realise that he's been set up?

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arse

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:


And, really, the name of the ally is not the story. The loose lips of the President hurting U.S. interests and betraying his country to curry more favor with his Russian buddies is the story.

The really stupid part of this whole story is this: the POTUS has a reputation for spreading as much rumour as fact. If the WP had not run with this story it is possible that the Russians might have shrugged it off as rumour he'd picked up from Fox News.

But in running the story, the WP has now encouraged Trump to admit that he told the Russians something. Which might in turn mean that the Russians give it more credence than they did during the meeting.

Or maybe it is a double-bluff and someone is using Trump's egoism against him. For whatever reason, someone wanted the Russians to swallow something, so told Trump (who, it seems, is unable to distinguish between intelligence and rumour), knowing that he'd tell the Russians.

We now have denials by senior members of the administration, but only confirmation by Trump himself. Is it too much of a mind-bending idea to think that this is a set-up and that Trump is too far up his own anus to realise that he's been set up?

He receives intelligence briefings. This information was likely part of those.
Whilst it is apparently true that staff slip him info, real and fake, to further their own agendas, the briefings are the most likely source of this particular information.
It is irrelevant, though in regards to his fitness as President. He believes it to be real, therefore he is acting inappropriately and dangerously.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Is it too much of a mind-bending idea to think that this is a set-up and that Trump is too far up his own anus to realise that he's been set up?

I think the popular expression for over-thinking Trump's actions is "five-dimensional chess".

[ 16. May 2017, 15:12: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mr cheesy
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I'm not sure it is overthinking though: if you want to sell the Russians on some dodgy intelligence, tell it to Trump.

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arse

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Eutychus
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Anyone feeding something to Trump under the impression they can be sure what he's going to do with it is as dangerous as he is.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Og, King of Bashan

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm not sure it is overthinking though: if you want to sell the Russians on some dodgy intelligence, tell it to Trump.

If this is actually what is happening, this country is well and truly fucked. What you are describing is a secret coup by the intelligence community. And I don't know how you keep something like that under your hat. I for one think this is too complicated to possibly be true.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Update in case anyone cares: Trump has tweeted that he shared some intelligence with the Russians because he had the "right" to do so as POTUS.

That's nice, isn't it?

But the emails! The emails!

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
If this is actually what is happening, this country is well and truly fucked. What you are describing is a secret coup by the intelligence community. And I don't know how you keep something like that under your hat. I for one think this is too complicated to possibly be true.

Explain how we know about this. Either the Intelligence Community is somehow lying to the POTUS (in which case the WH itself leaked this information) or the IC is leaking classified information used in discussions between the POTUS and foreign powers to the WP.

Either way, I think you can fairly say your country is fucked.

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arse

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cliffdweller
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Oh I thought by now we all understood that part as facts already in evidence

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Gramps49
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Just listened to the White House daily press briefing. It was very short. The White House is not denying that something was shared now.

General McMasters is now saying the conversation was not inappropriate because the president has the right to share any information he wants. But the question they are not answering is whether the information should have been shared.

Now it is coming out that the Russian meeting was not even revealed until after the fact. The American press did not know of the meeting until the TASS photos came out! Good grief.

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Og, King of Bashan

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
If this is actually what is happening, this country is well and truly fucked. What you are describing is a secret coup by the intelligence community. And I don't know how you keep something like that under your hat. I for one think this is too complicated to possibly be true.

Explain how we know about this. Either the Intelligence Community is somehow lying to the POTUS (in which case the WH itself leaked this information) or the IC is leaking classified information used in discussions between the POTUS and foreign powers to the WP.

Either way, I think you can fairly say your country is fucked.

How we know about what? Trump fucking up an telling the Russians something that was supposed to be a secret? Trump running his mouth and potentially alienating an ally or getting a source killed?

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:

Now it is coming out that the Russian meeting was not even revealed until after the fact. The American press did not know of the meeting until the TASS photos came out! Good grief.

They did know about it, they were explicitly barred. Before the fact there were all sorts of reports complaining about precisely that-- that the Russian media were allowed access and the US media were not.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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And Congress, of course, kept silent. Could you imagine the outcry if Barack Obama had done something like that?

The man never should have been inaugurated. The election should have been declared invalid.

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"Stop your noisy songs; I do not want to listen to your praise bands." -- Amos 5:23, Good News Bible (modified)

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lilBuddha
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Presidents have had slogans and mottos.

Harry Truman - The Buck Stops Here

Barak Obama - Yes We Can

Donald Trump - Hold My Beer

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Bishops Finger
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I wonder how long it will be before Mr. Putin moves into the White House? Some of his staff seem to be there already, airing the beds.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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rolyn
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Why not get into bed with Russia. Better than getting fried.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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mr cheesy
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Wadderyouknow, the intelligence came from Israel.

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arse

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Allegedly. They will not confirm, it is quite possible no one will. Cheeto is the most likely to do so.
The White House is more concerned about how news of Trump's lunacy leaks than keeping the stupid fucker in line.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

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Gramps49
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# 16378

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In the US military, under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, if a soldier were to give away that type of information, s/he would be subject to 35 years in prison. That is during peacetime.

If s/he did it during war, and it resulted in the loss of military personnel, s/he would be subject to capital punishment.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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BTW, T periodically makes noises about stopping White House press briefings altogether, and sending out memos instead.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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MarsmanTJ
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# 8689

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On the grounds that National Security has always been one of the top reasons claimed to vote Republican (and Republicans normally score consistently higher in polling on whether they can be trusted with the security of the country, etc) is the fact that Trump can't be trusted in such matters going to have a serious knock-on effect in 2018? The fact that Troy Lucan congresspeople are starting to sound pretty worried (all the major news sources have them willing to subpoena) would suggest to me that they are scared of being seen to be part of the same party as Trump.
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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Anyone seen those vids apparently of Turkish security beating protesters outside the WH? Crazy.

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arse

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Stetson
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# 9597

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Marsman wrote:

quote:
On the grounds that National Security has always been one of the top reasons claimed to vote Republican (and Republicans normally score consistently higher in polling on whether they can be trusted with the security of the country, etc) is the fact that Trump can't be trusted in such matters going to have a serious knock-on effect in 2018?
To some extent, but there is a section of his fan base that will pretty much rationalize away anything that he does. Either they think Putin is actually a pretty good guy to be allying with(knows how to deal with those pesky minorities, ie. the Alt-right view), or "Sure maybe Trump said something he shouldn't have but WHAT ABOUT HILLARY'S E-MAIL SERVERS AND BENGHAZI?!

[ 17. May 2017, 07:57: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Eutychus
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I think Trump's defence is likely to be along the lines that all these leaks amount to an orchestrated coup attempt by the Deep State.

At this point they are perhaps a necessary evil but I think in their own way, they are further damaging the democratic institutions Trump has already ripped into.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think Trump's defence is likely to be along the lines that all these leaks amount to an orchestrated coup attempt by the Deep State.

At this point they are perhaps a necessary evil but I think in their own way, they are further damaging the democratic institutions Trump has already ripped into.

I think you are right to the extent that if/when the pressure gets so much that some kind of action is taken against Trump and/or his administration, there is going to be an enormous backlash. Whilst the anti-Trump protesters in the main have been peacefully marching, the alt-right sees no prohibition on violence to get their way.

I can't really agree that the leaks themselves are damaging democratic institutions, though. In extraordinary times, you have to do extraordinary things - and if the POTUS is acting as an agent for Russia, it is hard to think that the IC shouldn't be alerting the public and doing something about it.

I dunno, I can't see this ending well with Trump and the alt-right slipping off into the darkness, unfortunately.

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arse

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Stetson
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# 9597

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If it WAS Israeli intelligence that Trump gifted to the Russians, that could be inadvertant payback for Jonathan Pollard allegedly stealing info for Israel to trade with the Soviets back in the day.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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L'organist
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# 17338

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Nice thought Stetson but DT even know about the Pollard affair?

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Stetson
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# 9597

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Nice thought Stetson but DT even know about the Pollard affair?

Well, that's why I said "inadvertent". No, I don't think he was intentionally exacting revenge for Pollard.

As for whether he knows about the Polalrd case, my impression is he's the kind of guy follows the news regularly, if superficially. So yeah, he probably at least knew about it when it was going on, and whenever Israel cranked up the lobbying for Pollard's release. (Remember also that in NYC, Israel and related issues get discussed even at the level of municipl politics.)

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Martin60
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# 368

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Er, any objective analysis anywhere?

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Love wins

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Martin60
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# 368

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As good as it gets. He broke a golden rule but that's what he does. The Institute will modify what it reports to Langley from now on.

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Love wins

Posts: 17009 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged



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