homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread (Page 0)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  ...  86  87  88 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I suspect this isn't serious, but these days, you never ever know: Is Donald Trump the Anti-Christ? ― 666 Fifth Avenue Mark of the BEAST, which contains among other things, all the ways that anything trumpy likes or is affiliated with adds up to 666.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I suspect this isn't serious, but these days, you never ever know: Is Donald Trump the Anti-Christ? ― 666 Fifth Avenue Mark of the BEAST, which contains among other things, all the ways that anything trumpy likes or is affiliated with adds up to 666.

Probably not serious, but I will just say... the weekend before the election the lectionary handed me 2 These. 2. The parallels were so obvious it was really, really hard not to point them out. Really hard. Had I not been thoroughly and comfortably ensconced in my liberal dream-land* at that point, utterly sure he was headed for a big and humiliating defeat, I probably wouldn't have been able to resist.


*Lord, I do miss that liberal dreamland. (sigh)

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Apparently Air Force One is Trump's favourite Harrison Ford movie.

Does make you wonder about the way Trump separates fantasy and reality in view of his recent statement.

I periodically run through the fictional US presidents I'd rather have. HF's version is definitely on the list.

T certainly isn't that president. (Understatement of the century.)

I think T is often messed up about fantasy and reality and whatever is running around in his head. I think he often walks around in a fog, and the only reality is what's in his mind.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18595 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Re bone spurs on T's feet:

I'm confused as to why people (here and elsewhere) make fun of this. If he didn't really have them, ok.

But it's an actual, painful condition. The Army rejects potential soldiers with flat feet. I'd think people with bone spurs on their feet would be rejected, too. Soldiers, even in training, have to walk, march, and run for miles, wearing heavy packs. Their feet need to be comfortable enough to do that dependably.

[Confused]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18595 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

 - Posted      Profile for Amanda B. Reckondwythe     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
bone spurs . . . it's an actual, painful condition
Easily treated by podiatrists whose fees do not present a burden to persons of the moneyed class.

[ 27. February 2018, 09:23: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

 - Posted      Profile for simontoad   Email simontoad   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't believe he had bone spurs, ever. He dodged the draft that's all. I don't particularly have an issue with people dodging the draft, but if they do they should shut up about the war service of others. That gets me steamed about Trump every time.

[ 27. February 2018, 09:46: Message edited by: simontoad ]

--------------------
Human

Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

 - Posted      Profile for Crœsos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re bone spurs on T's feet:

I'm confused as to why people (here and elsewhere) make fun of this. If he didn't really have them, ok.

But it's an actual, painful condition. The Army rejects potential soldiers with flat feet. I'd think people with bone spurs on their feet would be rejected, too. Soldiers, even in training, have to walk, march, and run for miles, wearing heavy packs. Their feet need to be comfortable enough to do that dependably.

[Confused]

simontoad gave a pretty good answer to this. The New York Times gives details:

quote:
Back in 1968, at the age of 22, Donald J. Trump seemed the picture of health.

He stood 6 feet 2 inches with an athletic build; had played football, tennis and squash; and was taking up golf. His medical history was unblemished, aside from a routine appendectomy when he was 10.

But after he graduated from college in the spring of 1968, making him eligible to be drafted and sent to Vietnam, he received a diagnosis that would change his path: bone spurs in his heels.

<snip>

In an interview with The New York Times last month, Mr. Trump said the bone spurs had been “temporary” — a “minor” malady that had not had a meaningful impact on him. He said he had visited a doctor who provided him a letter for draft officials, who granted him the medical exemption. He could not remember the doctor’s name.

“I had a doctor that gave me a letter — a very strong letter on the heels,” Mr. Trump said in the interview.

Asked to provide The Times with a copy of the letter, which he had obtained after his fourth student deferment, Mr. Trump said he would have to look for it. A spokeswoman later did not respond to repeated requests for copies of it.

The Selective Service records that remain in the National Archives — many have been discarded — do not specify what medical condition exempted Mr. Trump from military service.

Mr. Trump has described the condition as heel spurs, which are protrusions caused by calcium built up on the heel bone, treated through stretching, orthotics or sometimes surgery.

Mr. Trump said that he could not recall exactly when he was no longer bothered by the spurs, but that he had not had an operation for the problem.

“Over a period of time, it healed up,” he said.

For the record, Donald Trump was born on June 14, 1946. This means he had a draft number of 356 [PDF]. For those who are unfamiliar with the system, each American man of a certain age was given a number from 1 to 366 based on their birthday. The lower your number the more likely you were to get drafted and sent to Vietnam. Given his high number he was virtually immune to being drafted regardless of the condition of his heels.

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472

 - Posted      Profile for Augustine the Aleut     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re bone spurs on T's feet:

I'm confused as to why people (here and elsewhere) make fun of this. If he didn't really have them, ok.

But it's an actual, painful condition. The Army rejects potential soldiers with flat feet. I'd think people with bone spurs on their feet would be rejected, too. Soldiers, even in training, have to walk, march, and run for miles, wearing heavy packs. Their feet need to be comfortable enough to do that dependably.

[Confused]

I, too, have a bone spur condition in my left foot. With correct shoe fitting, I was able to (last May and June) walk 850km across northern Spain, with pack.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
[QUOTE]For the record, Donald Trump was born on June 14, 1946. This means he had a draft number of 356 [PDF]. For those who are unfamiliar with the system, each American man of a certain age was given a number from 1 to 366 based on their birthday. The lower your number the more likely you were to get drafted and sent to Vietnam. Given his high number he was virtually immune to being drafted regardless of the condition of his heels.

Clarification: he had a draft number of 356 in 1970. A new lottery was held each year (shades of Hunger Games) so last year's 356 could become next years #1. And deferments could take some time to process, so most men would start working on obtaining them long before the lottery was held.

I too would not sneer at anyone who sought a deferment-- as did Bill Clinton and George W and a vast number of young men in the 70s. But I do have a problem with someone who took that route now maligning and denigrating those who did serve, or proffering ridiculous fantasies about how courageously he would act in a life-and-death situation.

[ 27. February 2018, 13:58: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

 - Posted      Profile for Crœsos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
For the record, Donald Trump was born on June 14, 1946. This means he had a draft number of 356 [PDF]. For those who are unfamiliar with the system, each American man of a certain age was given a number from 1 to 366 based on their birthday. The lower your number the more likely you were to get drafted and sent to Vietnam. Given his high number he was virtually immune to being drafted regardless of the condition of his heels.

Clarification: he had a draft number of 356 in 1970. A new lottery was held each year (shades of Hunger Games) so last year's 356 could become next years #1.
That's not how it worked. The 1971 draft lottery only applied to men born in 1951 (i.e. not Donald Trump). Once you had a number, that was your number regardless of what subsequent lotteries determined. Of course, by the time of the 1971 lottery Trump would have been outside the age normally drafted.

There was a study a few years back that found a correlation between draft number and political opinion. American men of the Vietnam draft generation with lower draft numbers seem to have a greater tendency towards liberal politics and, most interestingly, not just on questions of war and peace. The correlation held the same for those who were ultimately drafted and those who were not. Trump, with his high draft number and very conservative political views, seems to be a confirming case.

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
For the record, Donald Trump was born on June 14, 1946. This means he had a draft number of 356 [PDF]. For those who are unfamiliar with the system, each American man of a certain age was given a number from 1 to 366 based on their birthday. The lower your number the more likely you were to get drafted and sent to Vietnam. Given his high number he was virtually immune to being drafted regardless of the condition of his heels.

Clarification: he had a draft number of 356 in 1970. A new lottery was held each year (shades of Hunger Games) so last year's 356 could become next years #1.
That's not how it worked. The 1971 draft lottery only applied to men born in 1951 (i.e. not Donald Trump). Once you had a number, that was your number regardless of what subsequent lotteries determined. Of course, by the time of the 1971 lottery Trump would have been outside the age normally drafted.
Ah, thanks for the clarification-- I had remembered incorrectly. Being female and 14 at the time it probably didn't have the same staying power as those who had to suffer through the anxiety of wondering if "your number's up".


quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

There was a study a few years back that found a correlation between draft number and political opinion. American men of the Vietnam draft generation with lower draft numbers seem to have a greater tendency towards liberal politics and, most interestingly, not just on questions of war and peace. The correlation held the same for those who were ultimately drafted and those who were not. Trump, with his high draft number and very conservative political views, seems to be a confirming case.

fascinating!

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The Lion of MarALago is of the era and class where excuses were found for rich boys to avoid military service. George W. Bush was another one -- the state national guard was a popular refuge to avoid going overseas, and if you had connections you could easily get a slot where a poor brown kid could not. Another famous chicken hawk is Wayne LaPierre, NRA president -- he got out of Vietnam by claiming mental issues. Guess those haven't gotten better, eh? Men of this type are always ready to yell for others to go and die for their country, or to demand parades with lots of armaments and missiles. Their personal inadequacies have to be compensated for continually with guns and blood. (My son, my daughter, and my son-in-law all are or were Army officers, and so my scorn for these cowards is infinite and unquenchable.)
Over at MSNBC you may view further unkind commentary about Our National Super Hero.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

 - Posted      Profile for Og, King of Bashan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Service in Vietnam is such a strange thing in American politics. Clinton, Bush, and Trump were all criticized for not serving, but they all ultimately won their elections. McCain and Kerry both built their careers off of service in Vietnam, and both lost. Both have also faced accusations of overstating their bravery from political opponents (Kerry more visibly than McCain, but both take their licks).

It's one of those things that people talk about as if it is hugely important, but I have seen no indication that it actually matters to significant numbers of voters when it comes time to cast a ballot.

--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Brave people do not boast about bravery. And there are many forms of bravery.

President Trump's characterisation of the resource officer as a coward may backfire.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Maybe, but t will still twist the facts to suit his own 'view'. It sounds as if it's the Sheriff who needs investigating, not Mr. Peterson.

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10149 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What the demonising of Scot Peterson demonstrated is the President's complete disregard of due process - except when it suits him of course.

Of course I do not know whether Scot Peterson's explanation will hold up to critical scrutiny. Though it does seem he had at least one witness with him throughout the process, and talked to more than one person.

But there is something remarkably un-Presidential in his wanton disregard of any reputation but his own. Of which this is only one example.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
FWIW, I've got bone spurs. There was an initial very painful period which brought me to the podiatrist's attention, and I ended up with a couple cortisone shots, some exercises and a pair of orthotics in my shoes. 25 years on, I no longer remember the things (which still exist) because the orthotics handle it.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
But there is something remarkably un-Presidential in his wanton disregard of any reputation but his own. Of which this is only one example.

I keep thinking this, but then I keep reminding myself that it must play really well with his base, and that is all he is aiming for.

It's really hard to get out of our echo-chamber and get into the heads of his supporters.

I'm intending to get The Faith of Donald Trump when I can bring myself to order it, with a view to trying to do so at least as regards evangelicals.

[ 27. February 2018, 18:19: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

It's really hard to get out of our echo-chamber and get into the heads of his supporters.

Aint that the truth! Too easy to dismiss the base.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
You might go over to Amazon and use the 'look inside' feature to scope out the first chunk of it. If it's utterly intolerable then you won't have wasted your money.

From the Post, a magnificently charitable interpretation of the Hair Horror's boast. He wanted to be a good person! That's a positive sign! We have to take them anywhere we can find them.

[ 27. February 2018, 18:35: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
You might go over to Amazon and use the 'look inside' feature to scope out the first chunk of it. If it's utterly intolerable then you won't have wasted your money.

See, this is where we part company.

Empathy is about getting inside the heads of people we find utterly intolerable, trying to understand things in their terms and from their perspective, and empathy is the first stage in winning hearts and minds.

It seems to me that in the US a bigger danger than Trump is falling into the trap of treating "the other side" as less than human, and that this, more than anything else, is the ultimate aim of Russian meddling.

Besides, that's what the Greek word for "devil" means:
quote:
"unjustly criticizing to hurt (malign) and condemn to sever a relationship"
[ETA convinced by my own rhetoric, just ordered it]

[ 27. February 2018, 18:48: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh, sorry -- I was thinking purely of the production quality of the book. If it is full of mis-spellings, if it's formatted poorly, if the notion of guttering or bottom margins is unknown, then the work is unreadable however congenial the actual content is. In other words, it may be a fraud and a scam, rammed rapidly onto the market to lure money out of your pocket.
You may see that I have no expectation of quality from anything that has the T-word on it, an instinctive self-protective recoil.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826

 - Posted      Profile for LutheranChik   Author's homepage   Email LutheranChik   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I live, move and have my being in the midst of Teump’s base. Don’t psychoanalyze/romanticize their grievamces overmuch. The idea that they’re all laid- off blue collar workers mourning the loss of good union jobs not requiring a great deal of education is oversold, frankly. The ties that bind that subsection of Trumpists with small town Chamber of Commerce types, senior citizens and other unlikely allies are racism, first and foremost; served with generous sides of xenophobia and a kind of toxic nostalgia for an image of the US that is white, patriarchal and self- consciously pious. It is a vision of America where African Americans are either invisible ( here in flyover country) or segregated and subjugated; where sexual minorities are marginalized to the point of criminalization or hospitalization; where women know their place; where immigrants, if tolerated at all, must instantly assimilate and constantly thank non- immigrants for allowing them to even dip a toe into the national melting pot.

You know that psychological maxim that in a family, the sickest, least functional member of the family becomes the thing around whom the rest of the family must orbit? Trumpists, for a whole variety of psychological reasons, are the people in our country least informed, least comfortable with change, least able to handle ambiguity and paradox, least comfortable interacting with “the other,” least able to cope without an external authority mediating reality for them, least able to articulate their feelings and aspirations and fears in a rational, civil way....and they’ve become this malignant force in the country that draws the rest of us around them in their morbid sentimentality, fearmongering and endless mantra of resentments.

[ 27. February 2018, 19:27: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]

--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I get that.

But it sounds like you want to segragate them.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Brilliant, Lutheranchik.

I see no way forward but to ignore them. We've listened to them. That worked out great, didn't it? So, now let's not. Can it be worse than what we've got at present? (No, don't answer that, because tomorrow will prove us wrong.)

One of the Parkland students had a great tweet the other day, pointing out how the denigrators, conspiracy theorist whackos, and gun nuts are utterly alien to the American spirit. He advised them to get over it. The most devastating line was the last and the truest: Because we will outlive you.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

 - Posted      Profile for Crœsos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm intending to get The Faith of Donald Trump when I can bring myself to order it, with a view to trying to do so at least as regards evangelicals.

If you want the short version, the New York Times has turned over some valuable editorial column inches so author David Brody can plug his book. (An "advertorial"?) It'll only cost you one of your five monthly Times clicks, and we're near the end of the calendar month as it is.

The short version of Brody's explanation is that Trump has learned to tell Evangelicals what they want to hear and is willing to write big checks to Tony Perkins (maybe). He also "has delivered the policy goods", by which Brody means "the courts, pro-life policies, the coming Embassy in Jerusalem and religious liberty issues". Presumably slashing corporate tax rates and opposing immigration (both legal and illegal) were omitted for the sake of brevity. Despite this assessment, Brody objects to characterizing evangelical support for Trump as "transactional".

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'd already gathered most of that from reviews, but I'm set to read the long version as some sort of lenten penance.

Meanwhile I see Kushner has just had his security clearance downgraded - surely an "Oops" moment.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
LutheranChik's post seems wincingly accurate to me, and also explains the attraction of Trump's persona and public behaviour. He has legitimised a toxic outlook, bought into it, fed it, made it respectable.

But the question Eutychus asks is very important. What is the aim of understanding the phenomenon? Simply to defeat it at the ballot box - which would really be good? Or to find ways of rescuing folks from this toxic world view? At least some of them, anyway.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'm convinced that the answer to the partisan divide is not, or should not be, a zero-sum game.

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'd quote Jesus. Let the dead bury their dead. Thank God, the younger generation wants to do better.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That is perhaps a pertinent point. If the majority of the trumpistae are getting on in years, then death will eventually remove them.

One can only hope that they are not succeeded by another generation of that ilk.....

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10149 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

 - Posted      Profile for Golden Key   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Re T and heel spurs:

Thanks for all the input. [Smile] My concern was mainly that people (here or elsewhere) didn't seem to be specifying that both a) heel spurs are legit problems, and b) T didn't really have them. It came across to me as "T claimed heel spurs, which don't really exist, so clearly he was lying".

I did a little poking around, and found some relevant info:

"6 Surprising Medical Conditions That’ll Disqualify You From Service" (Task & Purpose).
Mentions flat feet, but not heel spurs.

On various answer sites (quora, etc.), people asked about wearing prescription orthotics in the military. Answerers identifying themselves as military gave varying replies--basically, depends on your recruiter, how desperate the military is, whether you can get a waiver, whether you're willing to serve in a job where it wouldn't be an issue, etc.

"Medical Conditions That May Prevent You From Joining the Military" (Military.com).
This is very detailed. No mention of heel spurs or flat feet--at least, not by those names. But there are lots of foot-related things. (And a bewildering array of issues with genitalia! [Ultra confused] )

FYI.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18595 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I'd quote Jesus. Let the dead bury their dead. Thank God, the younger generation wants to do better.

Time magazine begs to differ: Young Americans Are Actually Not Becoming More Progressive (the Washington Post has a similar article, but I've preferred to quote an article not behind a paywall).

FYI, the last time I heard the sort of argument you're using invoked was by a Reconstructionist (the "christian" kind) arguing that essentially, the Republic of Gilead would eventually triumph simply because all the gays etc. would, and I quote, be "dying off".

Hoping your side wins because your adversaries get on with dying at the earliest opportunity doesn't really strike me as the way to heal the partisan rifts in the US, or anywhere else for that matter.

[ 28. February 2018, 07:02: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Youth culture has always been a mixture of narcissism and idealism, and I doubt that will change substantially. And of course Trump is a classic example of a narcissist.

We used to paraphrase a chorus when talking about this issue.

"It's all about me, Jesus
It's all about me, for my glory and my fame
It's not about you, as if I should do things your way".

The thing about Florida is that for many of the young survivors, the horrible experience has generated a greater idealism, a willingness to look critically at wider issues, and the courage to challenge the status quo. I'm hoping these effects will last. Once they realise what a long slog it will be to get any kind of meaningful change, they may become discouraged.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
That is perhaps a pertinent point. If the majority of the trumpistae are getting on in years, then death will eventually remove them.

The problem there is that the generation that's currently about 70 years old also happens to be the generation that were teenagers during the sixties - you know, the decade that's famous for being full of teenagers who espoused peace, free love, flower power and the like.

Either they changed their minds or the highly visible liberal ones were only ever a minority. So who's to say the same things won't also be true of today's crop of teenagers?

Don't rely on demographics to do the job for you. Get out there and win hearts and minds to your cause.

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well, quite.

The trouble is that I was a teenager in the 60s, too, so I'm now on my way out.....

Fair point, though.

IJ

--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10149 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
That is perhaps a pertinent point. If the majority of the trumpistae are getting on in years, then death will eventually remove them.

The problem there is that the generation that's currently about 70 years old also happens to be the generation that were teenagers during the sixties - you know, the decade that's famous for being full of teenagers who espoused peace, free love, flower power and the like.

Either they changed their minds or the highly visible liberal ones were only ever a minority. So who's to say the same things won't also be true of today's crop of teenagers?

Don't rely on demographics to do the job for you. Get out there and win hearts and minds to your cause.

I'm didn't reach my teens until the 1970's (and let's face it, the "sixties" actually ran from 1965 to 1974) but I'm pretty sure that for every peace-loving would-be hippie there were five squares who never did anything more out-of-line than get drunk a couple of times and go into a cold sweat about whether they or their girl had conclusively Got Into Trouble.

I suppose modern teenagers might be somewhat angrier on the whole, but with fewer jobs and less hope of a home of their own, it's not surprising.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The problem there is that the generation that's currently about 70 years old also happens to be the generation that were teenagers during the sixties - you know, the decade that's famous for being full of teenagers who espoused peace, free love, flower power and the like.

Either they changed their minds or the highly visible liberal ones were only ever a minority. ...

As Joe Scarborough puts it, even today, you're either with John Wayne or Jane Fonda. No generation is a monolith. Regardless of the relative numbers, generally speaking, the Fondas gravitate to urban areas and the Wayners stay in flyover country. Toss in local control of education and you can pretty much guarantee that young Wayners will be at least - or even more - as insular, ignorant, prejudiced and "conservative" as their parents.

Even if the Wayners are a declining minority, gerrymandering and the Electoral College give them disproportionate political power. So in addition to waiting for them die and changing their hearts and minds, there's an upcoming census and redistricting. If the Democrats miss this boat again, the Republicans will lock up a majority of elected offices with a minority of voters for another 10 years.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826

 - Posted      Profile for LutheranChik   Author's homepage   Email LutheranChik   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Eutychus: I'm not sure where in earth you get the idea that I wish to "segregate" Trumpists. Apart from the sheer silliness of that, there's also the fact that the psychological profile of Trumpists spans all classes and situations.There are Ladies Who Lunch and Izod- clad retirees on the golf course who are Trumpists; farmers; business owners; executive types; people who live in trailer parks, subsisting on the services that their hero is working to end.

I think one of the things that's sent us off the rails, that rational people need to address, is the idea that one idea is as good as another; that my ignorance is as good as so done else's knowledge.This is a dangerous assault on rational thinking, and frankly the more rational among us ( looking sternly at you, too, media) have humored or merely laughed at the bold ignorance and outrageousness of the Trumpists and their allies for far too long.In the US we often have the attitude that it is unfair and undemocratic to point out that someone's ideas are stupid and unworthy of serious discussion...even when they are. I doubt the Founders were as timid about confronting uninformed and irrational thinking.!

--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ah, the effect of postmodernism on manners. "This is my truth, tell me yours".

I think it is good to challenge bad ideas, irrational thinking. But it's a bit like the cult problem. When folks are trapped in a self-enclosing ideology, breaking through the armour around their delusions may require great skill and a lot of patience.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

 - Posted      Profile for Crœsos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I'd quote Jesus. Let the dead bury their dead. Thank God, the younger generation wants to do better.

Time magazine begs to differ: Young Americans Are Actually Not Becoming More Progressive (the Washington Post has a similar article, but I've preferred to quote an article not behind a paywall).
The 'tell' in these kinds of analysis is who counts as a "Young American" and who doesn't. From the first paragraph:

quote:
For years, it has been said that Republicans have a “young-people problem” — the party, it was assumed, just couldn’t attract young voters. Yet despite predictions it would experience an “historic trouncing” in 2016, among young voters, 37% of young adults voted for Trump (about the same as voted for Mitt Romney in 2012), with Trump winning among white young adults by 48% to 43%.
For whatever reason only white voters seem to count in these kinds of analyses. Even in those terms the data seem to be moving in the wrong direction for the Republican party. According to CNN 51% of white voters age 18-29 cast their ballot for Mitt Romney in 2012, while only 47% of voters that age voted for Donald Trump in 2016. A four percentage point slide among young white voters in a party that is increasingly becoming a white nationalist party would seem to be a problem.

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm didn't reach my teens until the 1970's (and let's face it, the "sixties" actually ran from 1965 to 1974) . . .

I'd pigeonhole "The Sixties" as the period of time between November 22, 1963 and August 9, 1974.

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

 - Posted      Profile for Eutychus   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I think one of the things that's sent us off the rails, that rational people need to address, is the idea that one idea is as good as another; that my ignorance is as good as so done else's knowledge.

I'm with you there, but unfortunately not many of the Democrats I read online seem to be there. The best defence against fake news is to relentlessly and patiently debunk it with rational arguments, not throw insults or mock.

And while not all views may be equally valid, a place has somehow to be found for those holding what we may feel to be unpalatable views. That's society. If the stereotypical Trump voter is dismissed as "white trash" or "old", there's a problem somewhere.

[ETA Croesos, that makes me not born in the Sixties [Waterworks] ]

[ 28. February 2018, 14:21: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

 - Posted      Profile for Soror Magna   Email Soror Magna   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Ah, the effect of postmodernism on manners. "This is my truth, tell me yours".
...

I think it's been around longer than that, at least in the USA, and I think it comes more from the fallacy that if all men are created equal, then everyone's knowledge or opinions are also equal.

--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"

Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I'd quote Jesus. Let the dead bury their dead. Thank God, the younger generation wants to do better.

Time magazine begs to differ: Young Americans Are Actually Not Becoming More Progressive (the Washington Post has a similar article, but I've preferred to quote an article not behind a paywall).
The 'tell' in these kinds of analysis is who counts as a "Young American" and who doesn't. From the first paragraph:

quote:
For years, it has been said that Republicans have a “young-people problem” — the party, it was assumed, just couldn’t attract young voters. Yet despite predictions it would experience an “historic trouncing” in 2016, among young voters, 37% of young adults voted for Trump (about the same as voted for Mitt Romney in 2012), with Trump winning among white young adults by 48% to 43%.
For whatever reason only white voters seem to count in these kinds of analyses. Even in those terms the data seem to be moving in the wrong direction for the Republican party. According to CNN 51% of white voters age 18-29 cast their ballot for Mitt Romney in 2012, while only 47% of voters that age voted for Donald Trump in 2016. A four percentage point slide among young white voters in a party that is increasingly becoming a white nationalist party would seem to be a problem.

The same is true of the oft-touted stats re evangelicals. When you look at the methodology employed, it is always white evangelicals they are counting. And yes, it is disturbing/ upsetting/ dismaying (especially to an evangelical pastor such as myself) that such a shockingly large percentage of white evangelicals support Trump despite all the obvious reasons not to. But it is only white evangelicals. About 1/3 of American evangelicals (and the majority of evangelicals globally) are non-white and, not surprisingly, non-white evangelicals are overwhelmingly not Trumpsters.

Millennials even more so are a plurality-- with more non-whites or biracial young people than white.

All of which helps explain why Trump is able to appeal so much to a segment of white voters who feel like "America" as they understand it is "slipping away" (and why some of us say "good riddance" to that "America"). They really should change those hats to say "MAWA" rather than MAGA.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110

 - Posted      Profile for Barnabas62   Email Barnabas62   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Fascinating turn in the discussion. Quite a lot to say at this point, but I think I'll save it for a little while.

It's about an hour before we cross the Great Divide and I've got a few final duties "over there". A continuation Trump thread has already been set up.

See you later!

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
... and then when you add to the discrepancy among white and non-white voters (both evangelical and millennial) the growing evidence of systemic disenfranchisement of non-white voters, you can see how we ended up with 45.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I'd pigeonhole "The Sixties" as the period of time between November 22, 1963 and August 9, 1974.

As far as American society, those are good bookends. One could also argue April 30, 1975.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

 - Posted      Profile for Crœsos     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The same is true of the oft-touted stats re evangelicals. When you look at the methodology employed, it is always white evangelicals they are counting. And yes, it is disturbing/ upsetting/ dismaying (especially to an evangelical pastor such as myself) that such a shockingly large percentage of white evangelicals support Trump despite all the obvious reasons not to. But it is only white evangelicals. About 1/3 of American evangelicals (and the majority of evangelicals globally) are non-white and, not surprisingly, non-white evangelicals are overwhelmingly not Trumpsters.

A fairly convincing case can be made that "white evangelicalism" is different theologically from the evangelicalism practiced by non-whites. That "white evangelicals" are not so much "evangelicals who happen to be white" but rather "evangelicals whose whiteness is an important component of their evangelicalness". As such I'd argue that "white evangelicals" and "non-white evangelicals" aren't two different subdivisions of one thing called "evangelicalism" but rather two different things.

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I've also seen December 6, 1969 mooted.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

 - Posted      Profile for cliffdweller     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The same is true of the oft-touted stats re evangelicals. When you look at the methodology employed, it is always white evangelicals they are counting. And yes, it is disturbing/ upsetting/ dismaying (especially to an evangelical pastor such as myself) that such a shockingly large percentage of white evangelicals support Trump despite all the obvious reasons not to. But it is only white evangelicals. About 1/3 of American evangelicals (and the majority of evangelicals globally) are non-white and, not surprisingly, non-white evangelicals are overwhelmingly not Trumpsters.

A fairly convincing case can be made that "white evangelicalism" is different theologically from the evangelicalism practiced by non-whites. That "white evangelicals" are not so much "evangelicals who happen to be white" but rather "evangelicals whose whiteness is an important component of their evangelicalness". As such I'd argue that "white evangelicals" and "non-white evangelicals" aren't two different subdivisions of one thing called "evangelicalism" but rather two different things.
Yes, although of course there are white evangelicals (I hope to count myself among them) who don't fit in that "white evangelical" camp. Yet another reason why the progressive strain of evangelicalism will need to rebrand with a different name. I'm just heartbroken for Wesley and all those progressive evangelicals who went before us that the Wrong Team got custody of the family name.

--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  ...  86  87  88 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools