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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
I do wonder, and I haven't had the poor form to ask any of my American friends, both Democrats and Republicans, whether they feel like Romans at the end of the Republic.
[ 01. July 2017, 14:37: Message edited by: Pangolin Guerre ]
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
quote:
I do wonder, and I haven't had the poor form to ask any of my American friends, both Democrats and Republicans, whether they feel like Romans at the end of the Republic.
Sadly, yes.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Nero tweeting while Washington burns?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
What probably will save us is the raw, overwhelming, undeniably blithering incompetence of Li'l Donny. He has all the attention span of a gnat, and watches only cable news. He reminds me of those crazy old men you see in bars or fast-food restaurants, yelling curses at the screen.
If he were able to focus upon a goal, the levers of power would lend him terrible strength. But he can't, any more than a four-year-old could. This is a dreadful and weak reed to lean upon, but so far, astonishingly, it seems to be holding.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
The problem is that while Trump is undeniably stupid, impulsive, mean, and petty, he's also extremely useful. As long as he helps the Republicans achieve some version of their agenda, he's safe. If the house and senate flip in 2018, it could change. But the Democrats are 0-2 in special elections since he took power, so that's far from a sure thing.
As I asked above, what happens if Trump loses in 2020? Will he step down gracefully, or will he cry voter fraud and dare anyone to remove him from office? And if, at that time, the Republicans remain one Supreme Court justice away from a majority with RBG not getting any younger, will they be able to resist playing along? That's when we really start looking like the end of the Roman Republic.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Was trumpy born this way, defective in personality and character, or was he deformed by his life experiences, where and how he was raised? If his life rhymes with Nixon's does that mean anything? Is there something about the American experiment involved? Is he the disease or one symptom of a larger pathology? And does this mean no hope for the human race?
(I write the above amid hopeful 01 July celebrations of 150 years of the Canadian experiment. And I consider nothing better, just different. )
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
I do wonder, and I haven't had the poor form to ask any of my American friends, both Democrats and Republicans, whether they feel like Romans at the end of the Republic.
Absolutely. Or the middle of the book of Revelation. Or Germany circa 1938 or so.
I have my escape plan (had the foresight to marry a Canadian 28 years ago). So I keep wondering at what point do I pull the trigger? Obviously uprooting my family, leaving my two jobs and immigrating won't be easy-- although far far easier for me than most of my neighbors. But waiting too long may close off some avenues of escape...
Interestingly, as all this has continued to unfold, at some point I remarked to DH how grateful I was that he had not relinquished his Canadian citizenship years ago in favor of naturalization. Surprisingly, he remarked that he was now thinking of doing so-- as an act of solidarity with the country that has been his home for the past 30 years, not leaving when the going gets tough.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
If he were able to focus upon a goal, the levers of power would lend him terrible strength. But he can't, any more than a four-year-old could.
Four-year-old? Our twins are four and they have more empathy, sense, manners and ability to focus than he has in his (very) little finger.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I had to set it at four, because by the time you are four you are, with luck, no longer in diapers. Incontinence (at least of that sort) is one thing that Crooked Don has never been accused of, and I shall not be the first to begin.
I have friends who are emigrating to either Canada or Ireland (depending on real estate prices) this year. They are hanging onto their property here in the US, however, so that they can vote absentee. If you leave, don't give up your citizenship. We will need your vote.
If Lyin' Don is re-elected in 2020 that's when you'll start to see the real exodus starting up.
[ 01. July 2017, 18:21: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
If you actually want a nightmare scenario, think of Trump-Trump-Kushner-Kushner.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
This is a free click and a day-brightener. You will remember that Buzz Aldrin went to the Moon; the Buzz Lightyear in the Pixar movie is named after him.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is a free click and a day-brightener. You will remember that Buzz Aldrin went to the Moon; the Buzz Lightyear in the Pixar movie is named after him.
I suppose it's forgivable that he doesn't get the Toy Story reference-- I doubt very much he was the one taking his young kids to the movies. But the exchange also suggests he has absolutely no idea what "infinity" means.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is a free click and a day-brightener. You will remember that Buzz Aldrin went to the Moon; the Buzz Lightyear in the Pixar movie is named after him.
I suppose you need a little light relief, but this just depresses me.
Can you really do no more than poke fun at the guy? As cliffdweller says, is your benchmark whether or not he catches contemporary culture references that happen to be important to you? Is all your creative energy directed at finding new names to call him?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, Trump is absolutely brilliant at catching contemporary culture references that win him votes, and that is all that matters.
I have this vision of Democrats spending four years being outraged at Trump tweets, poking fun at his apparent stupidity, and dreaming every Thursday of the Great Friday Newsdump that will magically get him out of office by the next week's.
Then they will wonder why he wins a second term by a landslide.
By carrying on like this you are making yourselves believe the guy is a fool and easily caught. As somone whose experience with a con artist is most enlightening when it comes to analysing Trump, take it from me: he isn't and he won't be.
To remove Trump you need to do better than do him down. You need to come up with a compelling and vote-winning alternative.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
Eutychus, I'm with you -- to a point.
I frankly don't think 44.3 is removable until or unless he somehow imperils 2018 election outcomes. The Senate is fairly safe in that regard; it's only the House which might be affected. That'll make for a 2-year-stalled Congress, but it won't change much else.
I also think most liberals have this the wrong way around. We should stop wondering how this petty, nasty, stupid, ignorant vulgarian managed to become President. He wasn't elected despite these shortcomings; he was elected because of them.
He was elected because of all the times our jaunty, confident, liberal selves sat quietly through Thanksgiving dinner while That Racist Sister-in-Law cracked nasty jokes, and we decided it was better to keep peace at table and avoid family squabbles than to challenge her.
He was elected because of the times we "picked our battles" on some church committee rather than call out the homophobe committee member.
He was elected because of the times we didn't want to make a fuss when a male acquaintance kept "mansplaining" while we were answering someone else's question about our own lives.
We have been too polite and too nice, and too nonconfrontational and our polite, liberal silence has been received as acceptance by the substantial subset of the US population which is racist, sexist, ageist, nativist, and on and on.
When we HAVE confronted such prejudices, we have been instantly marginalized as feminazis, bleeding hearts, tree-huggers, or what-have-you.
We have been living in a fool's paradise, and we have to stop being so nice, polite, and quiet.
We also have to stop diagnosing the President. We're the ones who helped put this guy in office; we're the ones in need of diagnosis.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
He was elected because of all the times our jaunty, confident, liberal selves sat quietly through Thanksgiving dinner while That Racist Sister-in-Law cracked nasty jokes, and we decided it was better to keep peace at table and avoid family squabbles than to challenge her.
He was elected because of the times we "picked our battles" on some church committee rather than call out the homophobe committee member.
He was elected because of the times we didn't want to make a fuss when a male acquaintance kept "mansplaining" while we were answering someone else's question about our own lives.
We have been too polite and too nice, and too nonconfrontational and our polite, liberal silence has been received as acceptance by the substantial subset of the US population which is racist, sexist, ageist, nativist, and on and on.
When we HAVE confronted such prejudices, we have been instantly marginalized as feminazis, bleeding hearts, tree-huggers, or what-have-you.
We have been living in a fool's paradise, and we have to stop being so nice, polite, and quiet.
Absolutely.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
...
Apart from privacy concerns, what's the problem? I've read the article, and don't see any other issue.
The purpose is voter intimidation. When Simon Toad shows up to vote in Nevada, some "poll watcher" will say, "Wait a sec, there's a Simon Toad registered in Virginia, and another in Oregon, and three in New York. And one has the same birthday as you, and another has the same last four digits in his SSN as you. Let's see forty-three pieces of ID. Got any proof you used to live in Virginia? How do we know you didn't vote three times in New York already? VOTER FRAUD!!!!!" Of course, none of this has anything to do with the fact that Simon Toad is registered in Nevada as a Democrat ...
And yes, of course these people know that in a country of over 300 million people and only 365 days in a year, lots of people have the same birthday. You only have to look in the phone book - remember that? - to discover how common duplicate names are. If I've done my math right, up to 100,000 SSNs can have the same last 4 digits as mine. That's not the point. The point is to feign ignorance of basic math, create the myth that there are millions of people voting illegally, and justify voter suppression efforts.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I don't think I have been nice and quiet. It is not my nature. Polite? As a tool.
I doubt if anyone has ever been converted, when confronted with their homophobia, sexism, racism, etc. Remember that it is a secret ballot in this country. You can go into the voting booth and vote for the bigot if you like, and no one will ever know. Confront them, nicely or not. Will it make a difference?
I take hope in the general trend of society. We can look at the world (those of us who are old enough) and see how it has changed, in our lifetimes. You can still -be- racist. But you have difficulty now, saying it aloud, acting casually about it, paying your black employees less than your white ones. Or look at gay and lesbian issues. The progress made in the past twenty years is amazing. You can go back, and read the history -- of black people in the back of the bus, of women fired when they became pregnant, of gay people ostracized. And it's not like that today, mostly.
We have progressed. We are getting there. We must not despair. The current president is over 70. He is the last president we will have like this. All we have to do is survive him.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
mdijon--
If you want to start a new thread, please do. Thx. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I went ahead and started
"Medical treatment--who gets what, who decides, who pays?" (Purg).
I've copied the Charlie Gard discussion from here to there.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
...
Apart from privacy concerns, what's the problem? I've read the article, and don't see any other issue.
The purpose is voter intimidation. When Simon Toad shows up to vote in Nevada, some "poll watcher" will say, "Wait a sec, there's a Simon Toad registered in Virginia, and another in Oregon, and three in New York. And one has the same birthday as you, and another has the same last four digits in his SSN as you. Let's see forty-three pieces of ID. Got any proof you used to live in Virginia? How do we know you didn't vote three times in New York already? VOTER FRAUD!!!!!" Of course, none of this has anything to do with the fact that Simon Toad is registered in Nevada as a Democrat ...
And yes, of course these people know that in a country of over 300 million people and only 365 days in a year, lots of people have the same birthday. You only have to look in the phone book - remember that? - to discover how common duplicate names are. If I've done my math right, up to 100,000 SSNs can have the same last 4 digits as mine. That's not the point. The point is to feign ignorance of basic math, create the myth that there are millions of people voting illegally, and justify voter suppression efforts.
sure. But that info is there anyway for collation. And do people really challenge you at the ballot box? I have never heard of that happening in Australia. I understand that there is a long history of attempts to stop people voting in the USA, but no party official can be within cooee of a voting booth here, and if someone tried to stop someone else voting, the electoral officials would deal with them PDQ.
We also don't have a weaver of the dark arts like Roger Stone to worry about. Fair dinkum, that bloke looks like he's dead, but found a way to resurrect himself. He just has to keep his body very cold or he will spontaneously liquefy.
My major point is that if someone in a foreign call centre can cold-call me on the phone and ask for me by name, then the privacy battle is lost. That said, Government is the proper place for the collation and analysis of information on its citizenry, not Google or any of a plethora of private companies. That I receive at least one call a day from India or the Philippines asking to speak to Mr Toad is evidence that the Private Sector simply cannot be trusted in this area.
Trump is of his time and place, but Australia has its share of similar characters. One was
Joh a conservative Premier of Queensland for over 20 years, lampooned hard and often, despised by the left and a wrecker of right-wing PM ambition. He got off corruption charges because one juror was a hard-core fan and hung the jury.
I vividly remember one American woman saying "He says what I think." about Trump, and I think that's the key to his appeal. It's not actually his words, but the values he projects: the values of our sexist, racist, cut-through-the-bullshit past. My Dad would vote for him, if he was still alive and an American. He had a Joh for PM sticker on our family car. Trump voters, I think, are bathed in the same cultural influences as me.
How do you change their votes? You gotta get next to them, have fun with them, be one of them and lay off the criticism.
Or you could try to swamp them...
Anyway, I damn well hope that Democrat strategists have a much better idea than me.
[ 02. July 2017, 04:36: Message edited by: simontoad ]
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I don't think I have been nice and quiet. It is not my nature. Polite? As a tool.
I doubt if anyone has ever been converted, when confronted with their homophobia, sexism, racism, etc. Remember that it is a secret ballot in this country. You can go into the voting booth and vote for the bigot if you like, and no one will ever know. Confront them, nicely or not. Will it make a difference?
I take hope in the general trend of society. We can look at the world (those of us who are old enough) and see how it has changed, in our lifetimes. You can still -be- racist. But you have difficulty now, saying it aloud, acting casually about it, paying your black employees less than your white ones. Or look at gay and lesbian issues. The progress made in the past twenty years is amazing. You can go back, and read the history -- of black people in the back of the bus, of women fired when they became pregnant, of gay people ostracized. And it's not like that today, mostly.
We have progressed. We are getting there. We must not despair. The current president is over 70. He is the last president we will have like this. All we have to do is survive him.
I agree, there are fewer and fewer young racist, homophobic misogynistic isolationists. We live in an interconnected world and young people more so. The OOO is the end of the line, the last of the dinosaurs.
I am also with you in finding humour in the situation wherever it is to be found. If we didn't laugh we'd cry.
Laughter is a great healer even when it's ironic and sarcastic in nature.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
I hope you are right. But my impression is that prejudices, whether learned or innate, die hard. Also, there seems to me to be a "lemming dimension" at work in social media. Sometimes that is marshalled in support of good causes, sometimes the group think can be aggressive, unfair, unpleasant.
Eutychus is right; it's not a good idea to be complacent about the inevitable twilight of Trump. Much as I wish otherwise, realpolitik suggests to me that there is unlikely to be a Watergate Mark 2 in his immediate future.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Yesterday he spoke at a convention of fans -- veterans and evangelicals -- (he feeds on these rallies like a vampire) and got a cheering, standing ovation for shouting, "The media tried to stop me but I'm president and they're not!"
Nelson Muntz
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Yesterday he spoke at a convention of fans -- veterans and evangelicals -- (he feeds on these rallies like a vampire) and got a cheering, standing ovation for shouting, "The media tried to stop me but I'm president and they're not!"
Nelson Muntz
Yep, all despots love their rallies. How long, 'tho, can he use 'fake news' and 'fraud news' before the cheering fans realise the emperor has no clothes?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Yesterday he spoke at a convention of fans -- veterans and evangelicals -- (he feeds on these rallies like a vampire) and got a cheering, standing ovation for shouting, "The media tried to stop me but I'm president and they're not!"
Nelson Muntz
Yep, all despots love their rallies. How long, 'tho, can he use 'fake news' and 'fraud news' before the cheering fans realise the emperor has no clothes?
Indefinitely. These are the people who wouldn't abandon him if he murdered someone in front of their very eyes. No amount of "evidence" is going to change their minds.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't arrive at by reason.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I don't think I have been nice and quiet. It is not my nature. Polite? As a tool.
Excellent. But far too many others have been nice, polite, and quiet. I have been, more than I care to admit. I'm sure I'm not alone.
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I doubt if anyone has ever been converted, when confronted with their homophobia, sexism, racism, etc.
I not only share your doubt, I'm sure you're right. That's not the point of speaking up, though; in these situations, there are usually others within earshot, some of whom are quietly wrestling with the "Should I speak up?" question. They need to know they're not alone; they need to hear various ways of defending the "liberal" view; they need to be encouraged to speak up too.
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Remember that it is a secret ballot in this country. You can go into the voting booth and vote for the bigot if you like, and no one will ever know. Confront them, nicely or not. Will it make a difference?
What I'm sure of is the result of not speaking up enough. We're living it. The mainstream media is no longer trusted, and when it presents facts that seem to support the liberal case, many people reject not only the message, but the messenger. People do still sometimes listen to their friends and neighbors, though. Ordinary liberal-in-the-street voters need to give folks more to listen to.
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I take hope in the general trend of society. We can look at the world (those of us who are old enough) and see how it has changed, in our lifetimes. You can still -be- racist. But you have difficulty now, saying it aloud, acting casually about it, paying your black employees less than your white ones. Or look at gay and lesbian issues. The progress made in the past twenty years is amazing. You can go back, and read the history -- of black people in the back of the bus, of women fired when they became pregnant, of gay people ostracized. And it's not like that today, mostly.
Yes, there's been progress. That progress is currently under attack on many fronts.
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
We have progressed. We are getting there. We must not despair. The current president is over 70. He is the last president we will have like this. All we have to do is survive him.
I am older than the current president; what has age to do with anything? Worse, he has already done substantial damage and will continue to do more. Hate crimes are up across the country. Groups espousing assorted hateful platforms are openly recruiting and demonstrating. I have students in their late teens-early 20s who complain that I restrict their speech freedoms when I kick them out of class for using the "n-word" and other slurs. We all operate at least partially on the experiences we have. What I take hope from is the bare fact that 44.3 was put in office by a minority of the electorate.
It was not a small enough minority. We actively need to shrink it further.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
The other day I stood at the Bus Stop with another of The Glums, a chap aged around 75. His 'conversation' usually slags off everybody from God downwards, but last week he really pissed me off by blaming 'Muslims' for just about all the ills of the world.
Fortunately, some friends arrived at the Bus Stop shortly before the Bus came along, so I was able to escape from the rant. If it happens again, I shall politely tell him that I Don't Talk To Racists.
And leave him to fulminate, rant, swear etc. as he will. His problem, not mine.
(I've done this sort of thing before at Bus Stops, BTW. Roll on the day when I get my driving licence back*. I think.)
IJ
*I had to hand it over to the DVLA when I started to have epileptic fits, due to a brain tumour. Clear of fits for over a year now! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) )
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I an not convinced that this man isn't a natural heir to twice-born George Bush and Ronald Reagan. The followers of an eroticized Plato are in a battle with religionists: they can't share anything anymore. Many seem to have conversations with Jesus, mistaking their fears for Other. Religion certainly isn't an opiate, it isn't even a comfort. Their bible is a wicked book, read as a pornography of domination. Conversion of this trump man? conversion to what exactly? The American religion?
Does anyone else remember Spinoza? who instructed us how necessary it is to love God withour expecting God to love us in return. A very unAmerican idea; some 90% believe God loves them on a personal basis and they talk to their Jesus daily. No servants here.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The other day I stood at the Bus Stop with another of The Glums, a chap aged around 75. His 'conversation' usually slags off everybody from God downwards, but last week he really pissed me off by blaming 'Muslims' for just about all the ills of the world.
Fortunately, some friends arrived at the Bus Stop shortly before the Bus came along, so I was able to escape from the rant. If it happens again, I shall politely tell him that I Don't Talk To Racists.
I wonder how helpful it is to take this approach: tell ranters “I don’t talk to racists (sexists, etc., fill in as appropriate).” It isolates the ranters, sure; but is that what we need to do?
Personally, I think my own views over the decades have been heavily-influenced by the sense that I belong to some (probably VERY loosely-defined) like-minded community with a base of shared values. As ranters begin to perceive that fewer and fewer people agree with them, at least a few of them will begin to wonder about the views they’ve held, and may begin to question these views.
I was once convinced (several decades ago) that sexual minorities were mentally ill; I found the (then) mental health professionals’ consensus persuasive. Following the ongoing discussion of “Is it or isn’t it MI?”, working with, and getting to know, people who belonged to those minorities changed my mind. It took a while. It was a process. I now understand how woefully wrong, and how profoundly damaging, the views I once held are.
I wonder if it might be possible to ask the Muslim ranter if he knows anybody who’s a Muslim? When he says, as he’s likely to, “No,” ask him if he shouldn’t at least get to know a couple of the folks he’s publicly badmouthing, so as to give them a fair chance to defend themselves. How does he know, after all, that he’s not speaking to a Muslim?
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
And leave him to fulminate, rant, swear etc. as he will. His problem, not mine.
Is it? You're in the UK, I believe; what do you think of your current government? Whose votes brought that about? And isn't it now Your Problem, as a result? That's how I'm feeling about my current government.
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Clear of fits for over a year now! )
Congratulations, and may it be ever so!
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Well, points taken - but I'm afraid that too much exposure to stress (e.g. trying to argue with a Muslim-hater) is likely to bring on an Addison's Crisis, which I can ill afford. Simply refusing to engage, and walking away, is the best solution for me , though I agree that that might not be the same for others.
As regards our 'government' (if Rule By Headless Chickens can be so described), I voted Labour, FWIW, despite being a paid-up member of another left-wing party of (sadly) smaller dimensions.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
This thread may need a slightly lighter moment. If we had a collection of Trumps, what would be the collective noun?
A cabal of trumps
An idiocy of Trumps (even one will do)
An embarrassment of Trumps (ditto)
A criminality of Trumps
Likewise, if we had a social medium just for Trump, what should it be called?
Blither (one sends out Bleats)
Me Central
Dumb yahoo
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
'A Tragedy of Trumps' seems not too harsh a term....
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
A twitter of trumps. (too easy)
A bigly of trumps?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Ohher (and others) -
I think it's a major mistake to focus on the racism, sexism and homophobia. Trump's people by and large don't think those matter (or agree with him). ANd the task is to move his people away from him, not reinforce the beliefs of the people who didn't and won't vote for him in any circumstance.
Remember, he won his electoral votes in states badly damaged economically. The votes that swung the key states to him were people who were hurting because of lost jobs and no economic future they could foretell. And they blamed the "government", "liberals" and the democrats because all the nice liberal people who believed in free trade and such didn't bother to explain how ordinary people were actually benefitting from those policies -- if they were (which no one bothered to discuss either). The nice liberal people just assumed that everyone would benefit, that everyone had benefitted and that if anyone doubted, all they had to do was take their word for it and stop thinking about it.
(Not unlike the anti-Brexiteers, IMO, but I digress.)
These people were hurting, and Trump offered to fix their problems. That he's almost certainly totally wrong doesn't matter -- they think he's right, because if he's right he can fix it.
If the Democrats want the hurting states to go their way, they've got to address what the people in those states think is the problem. And when you've no job, no prospect of a job, and a future of unrelieved misery, you are probably not going to be put off voting for someone who seems to have an answer when no-one else does because of all those liberal things he (and you) doesn't believe or care about.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Ohher (and others) -
I think it's a major mistake to focus on the racism, sexism and homophobia. Trump's people by and large don't think those matter (or agree with him). ANd the task is to move his people away from him, not reinforce the beliefs of the people who didn't and won't vote for him in any circumstance.
Remember, he won his electoral votes in states badly damaged economically. The votes that swung the key states to him were people who were hurting because of lost jobs and no economic future they could foretell. And they blamed the "government", "liberals" and the democrats because all the nice liberal people who believed in free trade and such didn't bother to explain how ordinary people were actually benefitting from those policies -- if they were (which no one bothered to discuss either). The nice liberal people just assumed that everyone would benefit, that everyone had benefitted and that if anyone doubted, all they had to do was take their word for it and stop thinking about it.
(Not unlike the anti-Brexiteers, IMO, but I digress.)
These people were hurting, and Trump offered to fix their problems. That he's almost certainly totally wrong doesn't matter -- they think he's right, because if he's right he can fix it.
If the Democrats want the hurting states to go their way, they've got to address what the people in those states think is the problem. And when you've no job, no prospect of a job, and a future of unrelieved misery, you are probably not going to be put off voting for someone who seems to have an answer when no-one else does because of all those liberal things he (and you) doesn't believe or care about.
John
Many excellent points. I wonder, though, if it's "the government, liberals, and Democrats" who are getting blamed. When I engage with Trumpists from this hurting category (there's a serious dearth of jobs in the northern part of my state), I hear blame getting laid at the door of "!@&%$! immigrants." (This state has a small black population, largely settled near our southern border. We've also received a substantial (given our small, rural population) inflow of refugees in recent years.) Hence, my conviction we need to sway people away from isms.
Interestingly, 8 of the 10 cities with the worst unemployment currently are in California, which went for Clinton. The counties where those cities are located went narrowly for Trump.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
When I engage with Trumpists from this hurting category (there's a serious dearth of jobs in the northern part of my state), I hear blame getting laid at the door of "!@&%$! immigrants."
I don't think you will be successful at persuading these people (who think they have no work because immigrants are taking their jobs) that they are being racist, and that they should love their immigrants.
Most of this sort of person is likely to tell you that he doesn't have anything against [people of a different skin tone or cultural background] but that the jobs should go to the people who are [here] already, rather than bringing in more people.
On the other hand, "we understand that you are hurting. Here are some concrete plans to bring more jobs to your area" is a pitch you can sell.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
This thread may need a slightly lighter moment.
As posted earlier, if you take that line, you have basically fallen for the Trump presidency cast as entertainment (as well as mistaking Purgatory for Heaven), and as you appear to be a US voter, I fear you are sleepwalking your way to another GOP victory in 2020.
Listen rather to John Holding, and do something useful about it.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
If we had a collection of Trumps, what would be the collective noun?
Considering what trump means in Scots slang (so I'm told), a privy of Trumps.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Okay, a lighter moment....
...both Yahweh and Satan are scratching their heads, giving puzzled looks to each other at this point.
Yahweh: You're certain he's not one of yours? Because I didn't make him.
Satan: Please. Give me some credit. Even I have standards.
Yahweh: Buddha? Brahma?
Both shrug their shoulders.
Satan: Gaia?
Gaia: glowers
Satan: Right right. Sorry. Forgot about the "pussy grabbing" thing.
Yahweh: Cthulhu?
Cthulhu: What kind of monster do you take me for? sips tea
Satan: Well, someone cooked him up.
Flying Spaghetti Monster: ...
Yahweh: Wait...there is no way you could...
Flying Spaghetti Monster: Look...it was my first time. I was a little drunk and someone asked for a "Tangerine Dream" so I thought...
Satan: facepalms. Fucking newbies...
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
A twitter of trumps. (too easy)
A bigly of trumps?
An apocalypse of trump-aster
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Does anyone else remember Spinoza? who instructed us how necessary it is to love God without expecting God to love us in return.
Okay, I am utterly confused. How the hell does one love God without expecting (hoping?) him to love us in--well, not return, in the first place, at least according to John--"We love God, because he first loved us."
No doubt I'm missing something deep.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Look, if you really, really want to convert a Trumpist, it's gonna hurt. Because you are going to have to get to know that person and love them to the point where you know what it is like to be that person, to suffer as they suffer and to fear as they fear. And then to do what lies in you to help with that suffering.
That's gonna suck. But you aren't going to convert them by keeping them at arm's distance. You aren't going to do it by mere words. And nobody's going to do it by bitching at them.
Trust me. I have Trumpists in my family, yea, verily, and it sucketh mightily. But any other approach beareth no fruit.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Does anyone else remember Spinoza? who instructed us how necessary it is to love God without expecting God to love us in return.
Okay, I am utterly confused. How the hell does one love God without expecting (hoping?) him to love us in--well, not return, in the first place, at least according to John--"We love God, because he first loved us."
No doubt I'm missing something deep.
"But America isn't very Jobean" (Harold Bloom, Where Shall Wisdom Be Found)
Spinoza wanted to unpin "chosen people" BS (among other purposes). Thus, either everyone is chosen or no one is, one human family, no national or personal exceptionalism, no nation nor cities on hills, no nations under (nor over) God. So no, God doesn't love anyone 'in return', nor is Jesus likely to hold personal conversation, with you, me, the pope, saint anyone, and not politicians.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Okay, I think I see where you're coming from. But the problem for me is that I'm not an American exceptionalist, nor an anywhere exceptionalist for that matter, and yet I don't think that God has withdrawn himself from human beings. I'd be happy to say "everyone is chosen"--I suppose that's a version of "everyone is special"--and I'm good with that. Christ died and rose for all. But I don't think God is impersonal, or uninterested, or distant from human beings of any type. And I'm sure he cares more for people than for nations or other political constructs.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I believe that the only man who can turn the true believers away from him is the man himself. Health insurance reform may well do it; the states that supported him are going to lose millions of dollars. People will die. And their survivors are not going to blame the Democrats or Obama or Hillary or Nancy Pelosi. They're going to blame the president, the man in charge. The buck does stop there.
It will call for blood, and alas, it will be the blood of the innocent.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Look, if you really, really want to convert a Trumpist, it's gonna hurt. Because you are going to have to get to know that person and love them to the point where you know what it is like to be that person, to suffer as they suffer and to fear as they fear. And then to do what lies in you to help with that suffering.
That's gonna suck. But you aren't going to convert them by keeping them at arm's distance. You aren't going to do it by mere words. And nobody's going to do it by bitching at them.
Trust me. I have Trumpists in my family, yea, verily, and it sucketh mightily. But any other approach beareth no fruit.
Yep. I have a Trumpist in my family, too, and she isn't even hurting. She's just gulped down the "It's the Muslims - Mexicans - feminazis - tree-huggers" koolaid. She lives in the Southwest, where she KNOWS all the Mexicans are lazy, here illegally, don't know any English, and get under-paid under the table when they work for her.
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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I believe that the only man who can turn the true believers away from him is the man himself. Health insurance reform may well do it; the states that supported him are going to lose millions of dollars. People will die. And their survivors are not going to blame the Democrats or Obama or Hillary or Nancy Pelosi. They're going to blame the president, the man in charge. The buck does stop there.
It will call for blood, and alas, it will be the blood of the innocent.
The pundits that these people trust are already blaming the Democrats for all these things, and the faithful are lapping it up like milk. Hell, these pundits blamed the 2008 bank collapse and 9/11 on Obama, and the faithful lapped it up. Facts don't matter if the Trusted Ones say something. The Trusted Ones are trusted. End of.
[ 03. July 2017, 01:09: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
No point thinking about the rusted-ons, from a strategy perspective...
Anyway, I got an email today from Mrs Lady Melania Trump. I didn't open it of course. She's a noted phisher. And as Miles Jupp would say, 'she's no lady'
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The pundits that these people trust are already blaming the Democrats for all these things, and the faithful are lapping it up like milk.... The Trusted Ones are trusted. End of.
It is remarkable to watch the pundits and WH spokespeople responding over the unhinged tweets. Apparently those tweets are all the fault of the mainstream fake media a) for provoking the President in the first place (what a chillingly familiar argument that is) and b) for covering the President's tweets in the second place.
And people seem to buy this. Watching the news it seems really scarily polarized, where the mentality is almost war-zone level paranoia vs the other. I don't know if it is that stark on the ground.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Look, if you really, really want to convert a Trumpist, it's gonna hurt. Because you are going to have to get to know that person and love them to the point where you know what it is like to be that person, to suffer as they suffer and to fear as they fear. And then to do what lies in you to help with that suffering.
Nah, people like trump feel entirely entitled to that love, but they'll always expect more - nothing is ever enough. The tiniest criticism is taken very badly and met with petulance. They don't need you to suffer with them, they need to wake up.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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