|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
Yep. Tough love; I love you so much that I'm simply not going to allow you to walk all over the weakest in society. I'm going to love you so much that I'm not going to allow the blackness deep inside you to infect society. I'm going to love you so much that I'm not going to allow you to destroy the freedoms that you enjoy as much as the rest of us.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Facts don't matter if the Trusted Ones say something. The Trusted Ones are trusted. End of.
That really is very good. A real summary of the dilemma we face. Not too dissimilar to that faced by parents and friends of those entrapped in cults.
We might wait a long time for disillusionment to dawn. Trump's supporters are invested in him.
Interesting discussion on BBC Radio 4 this morning on the importance for the Democrats of finding positive alternatives to the Trump messages which attracted folks to vote for him. A purely negative message (e.g. Trump is awful and I'm going to vote to impeach him for profiteering from his office and colluding with the Russians) seems unlikely to win the Democrats the House in 2018.
Plus they need an outstanding presidential candidate for 2020. Soon.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
That's what I keep saying.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Look, if you really, really want to convert a Trumpist, it's gonna hurt. Because you are going to have to get to know that person and love them to the point where you know what it is like to be that person, to suffer as they suffer and to fear as they fear. And then to do what lies in you to help with that suffering.
That's gonna suck. But you aren't going to convert them by keeping them at arm's distance. You aren't going to do it by mere words. And nobody's going to do it by bitching at them.
Trust me. I have Trumpists in my family, yea, verily, and it sucketh mightily. But any other approach beareth no fruit.
This cuts unfortunately close to the bone. Feels like an austere ignition retreat. Something to pray on
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Look, if you really, really want to convert a Trumpist, it's gonna hurt. Because you are going to have to get to know that person and love them to the point where you know what it is like to be that person, to suffer as they suffer and to fear as they fear. And then to do what lies in you to help with that suffering.
Nah, people like trump feel entirely entitled to that love, but they'll always expect more - nothing is ever enough. The tiniest criticism is taken very badly and met with petulance. They don't need you to suffer with them, they need to wake up.
This is why you're never going to get anywhere with Trumpists (didn't say "Trump," he's a whole different ball of psych problems himself). Trumpists, I said. Who are, at base, human beings, just as you are. Who have the same brokenness that you have. Who are just as stubborn and ornery as we all are. Who are just as likely to dig their feet in and behave mulishly as any other members of the human race, except if somebody bothers to come close to them, listen, care, be with, and generally love them.
Nobody converts because other people are bashing them on the head. At most you'll get fake conversion followed by immediate reversion (much stronger now). At worst... let's just not go there. Four more years of Trump doesn't bear thinking about.
"They ought to wake up"--well, and why are they not doing so, then? Are you saying they are somehow innately more stupid, less human, or what? Think it through. There is some bloody strong thing that's stopping them from seeing what is so obvious to you and to many others. It must be something powerful, if it's taking this long for them to "wake up". Are you going to stand at a distance and watch your brothers and sisters (yes, they are, don't deny it!) stay victim to whatever-the-hell-it-is? lecture them from afar? leave them to deal with it on their own, when demonstrably they haven't got the first clue what's wrong or even that something is wrong in the first place?
I've been in a form of service that involves encouraging conversion of various sorts for oh, thirty-some years now. I've never ever seen a person convert because they were being mocked, ridiculed, or yelled at. I've seen quite a few convert after* someone who was already in the light took the time and trouble to come alongside them, to listen, to love, to be humble, to try to understand, and to help where indicated. It's effective. Not cheap, but effective. But it costs blood, sweat, and tears, to steal a phrase.
*I'm not talking from a human standpoint at the moment; the Holy Spirit is of course the great confounding factor. But he usually seems to follow these lines too.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
A purely negative message (e.g. Trump is awful and I'm going to vote to impeach him for profiteering from his office and colluding with the Russians) seems unlikely to win the Democrats the House in 2018.
Plus they need an outstanding presidential candidate for 2020. Soon.
I know one former First Lady was defeated (by Trump of all people) but shouldn't the Democrat bigwigs call the immediate former First Lady and sound her out? On a basis of "Your country and the rest of the planet needs you".
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Think it through. There is some bloody strong thing that's stopping them from seeing what is so obvious to you and to many others. It must be something powerful, if it's taking this long for them to "wake up". Are you going to stand at a distance and watch your brothers and sisters (yes, they are, don't deny it!) stay victim to whatever-the-hell-it-is? lecture them from afar? leave them to deal with it on their own, when demonstrably they haven't got the first clue what's wrong or even that something is wrong in the first place?
Yes.
I'm going to stand at a distance and wait for them to wake up.
It's a lot like an alcoholic or addict or a member of a cult. Until they want to come out/get free any support is enabling their behaviour. It is also harming the enabler who could be usefully, effectively supporting others.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
From la vie en rouge:
I think they already have and she says she doesn't want the job. She claims not to have the temperament for it.
Maybe not, but......yes, she's too nice, and cool....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln3wAdRAim4
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I think they already have and she says she doesn't want the job. She claims not to have the temperament for it.
That didn't stop the present office holder from running.
But then he's just a modern presidential temperament.
--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Think it through. There is some bloody strong thing that's stopping them from seeing what is so obvious to you and to many others. It must be something powerful, if it's taking this long for them to "wake up". Are you going to stand at a distance and watch your brothers and sisters (yes, they are, don't deny it!) stay victim to whatever-the-hell-it-is? lecture them from afar? leave them to deal with it on their own, when demonstrably they haven't got the first clue what's wrong or even that something is wrong in the first place?
Yes.
I'm going to stand at a distance and wait for them to wake up.
It's a lot like an alcoholic or addict or a member of a cult. Until they want to come out/get free any support is enabling their behaviour. It is also harming the enabler who could be usefully, effectively supporting others.
Are they really open to being corrected? Can they hear anyone who disagrees with them without shooting them down (figuratively)? I am unconvinced.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Why do you have to convert the ardent Trumpists? I can't see that - it's the swing voters that are the target, isn't it? In the UK, the left does not tend to target ardent right-wing people, but people in the centre, who may vote Tory or Labour.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Why do you have to convert the ardent Trumpists? I can't see that - it's the swing voters that are the target, isn't it? In the UK, the left does not tend to target ardent right-wing people, but people in the centre, who may vote Tory or Labour.
Yes - those who voted for trump but now wonder why they did so. There will be plenty, as with Brexit. I suspect my brother was one of the people who voted Brexit as a protest and now regrets it. He hasn't said but, reading between the lines I think this is the case.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
From la vie en rouge:
I think they already have and she says she doesn't want the job. She claims not to have the temperament for it.
Maybe not, but......yes, she's too nice, and cool....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln3wAdRAim4
IJ
Considering candidates' suitability on the basis of their "niceness" or "coolness" (or "guts" or "toughness", delete as applicable) is part of what has got the US into this mess in the first place.
I'm reading this week's Economist's special report on Trump's America, and fascinating reading it is too.
Insights include findings that only about one fifth of Americans take an interest in politics at all, fewer than one tenth of voters for either historic party have ever attended a political meeting or campaign (94% of Trump voters and 90% of Clinton voters never have); that rather than examine candidates and choose one on the basis of their personal convictions, voters appear to choose a politician for emotional reasons and then adjust their political convictions to what they think, often incorrectly, their chosen candidates stand for (IIRC some 24% of all voters do not know which party is the more conservative of the two).
One of the most striking findings is not that 31% of Republican voters believe the government probably or certainly had prior knowledge of 9/11 - but that 36% of Democrat voters do.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Why do you have to convert the ardent Trumpists? I can't see that - it's the swing voters that are the target, isn't it? In the UK, the left does not tend to target ardent right-wing people, but people in the centre, who may vote Tory or Labour.
Yes - those who voted for trump but now wonder why they did so. There will be plenty, as with Brexit. I suspect my brother was one of the people who voted Brexit as a protest and now regrets it. He hasn't said but, reading between the lines I think this is the case.
Well, it's said that Labour managed to woo back some UKIP voters, and didn't do it through attacking them. In fact, they offered a kind of strange ambiguity over Brexit, that may have attracted both sides.
But I would not go out to canvas Monday Club people, (very right wing). There's no point.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I've been in a form of service that involves encouraging conversion of various sorts for oh, thirty-some years now. I've never ever seen a person convert because they were being mocked, ridiculed, or yelled at. I've seen quite a few convert after* someone who was already in the light took the time and trouble to come alongside them, to listen, to love, to be humble, to try to understand, and to help where indicated. It's effective. Not cheap, but effective. But it costs blood, sweat, and tears, to steal a phrase.
Sorry about the above; the software wouldn't let me delete or edit.
It's worth talking with people in ways that encourage them to pay at least as much attention to what's actually, personally, going on for them as all the scary stuff they see in the media. I've been astonished to see how many people blame "immigrants" for the no-work situation when first asked, and then gradually, once you ask them to think about their own lives, come to see that the paper mills shut down because of robotization, or decrepit equipment or bad management or new logging restrictions, etc. etc.
The other issues are that people resent change; they want the old One-Job-For-Life model, which our economy no longer supports. They also sometimes find it more important to Lay Blame rather than Find Solutions, because that's a second job on top of the ones they're already coping with. It's useful to go over how other people are responding to the crisis.
ETA: "the above" was taken care of. Thanks, kind host!
[ 03. July 2017, 17:57: Message edited by: Ohher ]
--------------------
From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
One of the most striking findings is not that 31% of Republican voters believe the government probably or certainly had prior knowledge of 9/11 - but that 36% of Democrat voters do.
I don't think that's so much a "finding" as it is a poll result for which the Economist doesn't even reproduce the full question; it's less striking when you consider that respondents may simply be recalling the Presidential Daily Brief of August 6, 2001, titled Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in US.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
That was the most in-yer-face result of the poll, but hardly the most relevant one of those I cited.
I think that above all, the results suggest a lot more thought is needed into just how to go about getting Trump out of the White House than simply hand-wringing over his abuse of animated gifs, thinking up new names to call him, or pointing out that he's a misogynist.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
|
Posted
I think the notion that 44.3 can be got out of the White House before 2020 is pure fantasy. Until or unless he does something which imperils 2018 election outcomes for Republicans (and even his most egregious antics have failed to do this), we're stuck with him until he's (please, God) voted out in November of 2020. (God help us if he isn't. Eight years of this? {{{Shudders}}}
In the meantime, we need to find a candidate, and/or possibly even some political parties, capable of being responsible, and responsive, and also inspiring of trust and support.
--------------------
From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
Right now I would put money on him winning again in 2020 due to an apparent lack of all the things you mention.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
That was the most in-yer-face result of the poll, but hardly the most relevant one of those I cited.
OK, I'll bite - which one was the most relevant? quote:
I think that above all, the results suggest a lot more thought is needed into just how to go about getting Trump out of the White House than simply hand-wringing over his abuse of animated gifs, thinking up new names to call him, or pointing out that he's a misogynist.
There are a lot of people in the US whose job it is to think of ways to oppose the Republicans in general and Trump in particular, but they're probably not CC'ing us on their strategic emails.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
Very interesting set of posts on this page. Thanks to all who are contributing.
I reckon that Lamb Chopped isn't so much offering a solution to the question of how the Democrats win the next election as how does the United States overcome/lessen its deep political division in a sustainable way?
Winning elections is much more cynical. You don't need hearts and minds, you need people marking your name on a ballot on one day. That requires organisation. Basic stuff. Transport to the polls, a deniable inducement like a big smile and small favours over a long period, and having people in every community who are well-known, liked, and work hard.
On a national level, a fair dinkum scare campaign really works. In Australia, any suggestion of an American-style health care system works a treat. Anyway, I'm selling coal to Newcastle here.
NEVER talk about actual ideas, unless they are populist ideas. I'm hoping that might be large-scale re-nationalisation of formerly public utilities might be one of those in Australia soon. (Go Corbyn you game-changing champion). I'm not sure how that would go down stateside (lie).
DON'T try to convince people of stuff unless it is an opinion-leader - one of your true believers. Let your community people do the hard yakka there, and they won't be pushing the idea, but the emotion.
This post has been bought to you by the Nhilist School of Politics, and is copyright R. Stone (dec.) and K. Conway (v.scary smart person).
KEY MESSAGE: HIDE YOUR IDEALS, SMILE and DO FAVOURS.
[ 04. July 2017, 03:21: Message edited by: simontoad ]
--------------------
Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
This post has been bought to you by the Nhilist School of Politics, and is copyright R. Stone (dec.) and K. Conway (v.scary smart person).
Hmmm. Tangential, perhaps, but I have wondered this about the Mistress of Alternative Facts. Do you think she's actually smart? The v. scary part I'm in full agreement with. But if Kellyanne were actually smart, surely she could craft lies that were not quite so instantly and blatantly detectable?
--------------------
From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free
Posts: 374 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
That was the most in-yer-face result of the poll, but hardly the most relevant one of those I cited.
OK, I'll bite - which one was the most relevant?
I think the fact that 9/10 of respondents said they have never attended a political meeting or rally. quote:
There are a lot of people in the US whose job it is to think of ways to oppose the Republicans in general and Trump in particular, but they're probably not CC'ing us on their strategic emails.
I generally find the Ship to be a place where original, constructive ideas are to be found. But when it comes to the aftermath of the US presidential election, I think those opposing Trump have focused to an unhealthy degree on the kind of thing I listed above.
Besides, you kind of make my point for me. "Opposing the Republicans" and/or Trump is a whole different kettle of fish from standing for something and having a roadmap on how to get there.
To take just one example, it's far too late to keep repeating that Clinton won the popular vote (I hardly think this would have been a loudly trumpeted concern for most here had Trump won it and lost the electoral college vote). It's this kind of stuck-in-2016 thinking that is in danger of allowing the GOP to win in 2020 - Trump is campaigning and fund-raising already, in case you hadn't noticed.
The challenge right now is to work out how the electoral college vote can be won under the existing rules.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Right now I would put money on him winning again in 2020 due to an apparent lack of all the things you mention.
I would put money on him not being well enough.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
How likely do you think it is that there will be a 2020 election rather than, say, some kind of state of emergency in response to a perceived threat ?
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
I would certainly put ill health ahead of any other reason for Trump not winning again in 2020.
I don't know enough about US constitutional matters to predict the scope of emergency powers with any certainty, but I suspect (hope?) that cancelling a presidential election on emergency grounds is still in tinfoil hat territory.
As I see it, as of today the GOP is quite capable of winning in 2020 without resorting to such tactics.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
This is probably an unfair reading of your post above Eutychus, but I found it interesting/instructive/ironic that you mention on the one hand that 9/10 respondents said that they had never attended a political meeting or rally, and on the other that the Democrats need to stand for something if they are going to win the Presidency in 2020.
My understanding of the "How to win from Opposition" book is that you relentlessly point to the Government's weaknesses for as long as humanly possible and then release your policy manifesto as close as you can to the date of the election so the Govt has very little time to turn the media spotlight your way.
Gotta run. I disagree with the idea only eutychus.
--------------------
Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
sorry, had to finish that last one quick so I could run down the corridor to greet my wife, dressing-gown flowing majestically behind me a-la Bishop Brennan in Father Ted.
I accept that my ideas on how to do politics are fundamentally evil. It's one of the reasons why I only crap on about it, rather than do it.
Speaking of fundamental evil, yes Other I do think that KAC is a very smart woman who is very good at her job. You have to be extremely strong in your mind and very quick-witted to run PR defence when you have Trump effectively controlling the agenda by refusing to be handled.
I am also coming around to the idea that Trump has street smarts, as they used to say in the 1940's. He knows how to sell stuff to Americans. He is relentlessly focused on his own interest and is unremittingly crass, but he has smarts. His wine is rubbish and his steaks taste like rubber.
With the exception of how he's treated NATO, I also think his administration is doing well on foreign policy. Hell, if they took out Assad and managed the fallout with the Russians, I'd be on my feet clapping. Well, maybe not on my feet but that's because I don't give standing ovations very often. The behavior of Stephen Colbert's audience appalls and disgusts me.
--------------------
Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
That was the most in-yer-face result of the poll, but hardly the most relevant one of those I cited.
OK, I'll bite - which one was the most relevant?
I think the fact that 9/10 of respondents said they have never attended a political meeting or rally.
And why is that relevant? Do you think it's significantly different from the past, or from other democracies? quote:
quote:
There are a lot of people in the US whose job it is to think of ways to oppose the Republicans in general and Trump in particular, but they're probably not CC'ing us on their strategic emails.
I generally find the Ship to be a place where original, constructive ideas are to be found. But when it comes to the aftermath of the US presidential election, I think those opposing Trump have focused to an unhealthy degree on the kind of thing I listed above.
Besides, you kind of make my point for me. "Opposing the Republicans" and/or Trump is a whole different kettle of fish from standing for something and having a roadmap on how to get there.
Perhaps, but it's your kettle - I was responding to your comment about "a lot more thought is needed into just how to go about getting Trump out of the White House." Sounds like opposition to Trump to me. quote:
To take just one example, it's far too late to keep repeating that Clinton won the popular vote (I hardly think this would have been a loudly trumpeted concern for most here had Trump won it and lost the electoral college vote). It's this kind of stuck-in-2016 thinking that is in danger of allowing the GOP to win in 2020 - Trump is campaigning and fund-raising already, in case you hadn't noticed.
The challenge right now is to work out how the electoral college vote can be won under the existing rules.
No kidding? Thanks for that original, constructive idea!
Again - there are many people whose day job it is to come up with electoral strategies, but you're not in communication with any of them here. I don't see any reason to think that those people are fixated on (e.g.) Clinton's share of the popular vote. I don't think your exposure to the venting of a handful of people on a tiny internet forum can really form a justifiable basis for concern about the 2020 presidential election.
I mean, think of all the other things that SoF hasn't figured out: global warming, North Korea, peace in the Middle East... the list is endless. Get to work, people!
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
I will be happy to be proved wrong.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Dave W ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
To take just one example, it's far too late to keep repeating that Clinton won the popular vote (I hardly think this would have been a loudly trumpeted concern for most here had Trump won it and lost the electoral college vote). It's this kind of stuck-in-2016 thinking that is in danger of allowing the GOP to win in 2020 - Trump is campaigning and fund-raising already, in case you hadn't noticed.
Actually, it is Trump that is still trying to prove he won the popular vote. He claims 5 billion voters voted illegally. He has set up a presidential review board to prove it. That board has recently asked for detailed information of all registered voters from every state. Fortunately, most states are refusing to provide the information. Some will release what is already publically information. And the ACLU is challenging the request.
The thought is, that the board is actually being set up to push for voter suppression laws on the federal level.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I will be happy to be proved wrong.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying there are no good reasons to be concerned about the state of the American political system or the 2020 election. Far from it! I just don't think the high ratio of puerile insults to sure-fire strategies here on SoF is among them.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I will be happy to be proved wrong.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying there are no good reasons to be concerned about the state of the American political system or the 2020 election. Far from it! I just don't think the high ratio of puerile insults to sure-fire strategies here on SoF is among them.
You may be mistaking blowing off steam for planning. From a human perspective, both are necessary.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I just don't think the high ratio of puerile insults to sure-fire strategies here on SoF is among them.
I'm really worried that the DNC strategy inputs have been diminished by the standard of debate on SoF.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I just don't think the high ratio of puerile insults to sure-fire strategies here on SoF is among them.
I'm really worried that the DNC strategy inputs have been diminished by the standard of debate on SoF.
I'm more worried that Purgatory is becoming Heaven or Hell, to be honest.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm more worried that Purgatory is becoming Heaven or Hell, to be honest.
No fake news here. We throw that overboard.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
|
Posted
So when Trump mocks Kim Jung Un for not having anything "better to do" than launch missiles, is he totally unaware or trolling us all? I'm not entirely sure.
--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Okay, a lighter moment....
...both Yahweh and Satan are scratching their heads, giving puzzled looks to each other at this point.
Yahweh: You're certain he's not one of yours? Because I didn't make him.
Satan: Please. Give me some credit. Even I have standards.
Yahweh: Buddha? Brahma?
Both shrug their shoulders.
Satan: Gaia?
Gaia: glowers
Satan: Right right. Sorry. Forgot about the "pussy grabbing" thing.
Yahweh: Cthulhu?
Cthulhu: What kind of monster do you take me for? sips tea
Satan: Well, someone cooked him up.
Flying Spaghetti Monster: ...
Yahweh: Wait...there is no way you could...
Flying Spaghetti Monster: Look...it was my first time. I was a little drunk and someone asked for a "Tangerine Dream" so I thought...
Satan: facepalms. Fucking newbies...
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
--------------------
Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
So when Trump mocks Kim Jung Un for not having anything "better to do" than launch missiles, is he totally unaware or trolling us all? I'm not entirely sure.
He's preaching to his choir.
Eutychus is right I think about reactions to Trump if you direct Euty's* words not to the denizens of this forum but to CNN and some commentators. The reaction to his re-tweeting of that doctored WWF video showing him fighting an embodied CNN logo was idiotic. Trump, Stone and Conway must have laughed so hard that one of Stone's eyes popped out. The idea that re-tweeting that video made journalists less safe really hit the bulls-eye for further alienating everyone who regards 'the media' as the mouthpiece for the hated 'liberal elite'. CNN should have said nothing.
*Unsure of which pronoun to use and 'their' looked ugly. In the modified words of the great '80's transvestite Divine, "I think you're a man but..."
[ 05. July 2017, 01:10: Message edited by: simontoad ]
--------------------
Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
No more science for USA. The link goes on to list the morons the head moron has appointed. Pence, Perry, Tillerson and Carson who are all ignorant, antiscience, creationist and oil industry pundits. Carson is the most surprising. Physicians elsewhere have at least some biology.
The G20 meeting starts shortly. Will anyone get punched in the face? and who by whom? Here's hoping.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Carson is the most surprising. Physicians elsewhere have at least some biology.
Carson shocked me with his claims and performance.
This article suggests neurosurgeons needn't be exceptionally smart. I've read another that stated the winnowing process is before they've done surgery. And that, after acceptance into a programme, it is difficult to get rid of them.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
Neurosurgeons have no formal examination testing that requires more brains than any other kind of surgeon, or even any other kind of doctor.
There are some technical skills that are required, particularly finely tuned ones in brainstem surgery, for instance, and not so finely tuned for making burr holes in skulls and shelling out blood clots. (There are some jokes about clots on both ends of the surgical instruments). It requires absolute commitment to putting in the hours, gaining the experience, and jumping through hoops, but the academic skills required don't stand out compared to others branches of medicine.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I will be happy to be proved wrong.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying there are no good reasons to be concerned about the state of the American political system or the 2020 election. Far from it! I just don't think the high ratio of puerile insults to sure-fire strategies here on SoF is among them.
At the moment I am more concerned about the Cheeto in Chief thinking that tweeting insults is a good way to respond to North Korea's having successfully tested an ICBM. If he fucks up badly enough there won't be a 2020 election, at least not here on the west coast.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I don't think your exposure to the venting of a handful of people on a tiny internet forum can really form a justifiable basis for concern about the 2020 presidential election.
At least someone is thinking about Elizabeth Warren for 2020 - oh, wait...
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
At the moment I am more concerned about the Cheeto in Chief thinking that tweeting insults is a good way to respond to North Korea's having successfully tested an ICBM. If he fucks up badly enough there won't be a 2020 election, at least not here on the west coast.
I thought the joint statement from China and Russia suggesting that the US should remove its recently installed missile defence system from South Korea was nicely done. China was very unhappy with that system being installed. I reckon there's going to be more jaw jaw and less war war on this one. That's a position statement, if not an ambit claim.
I saw a PBS Newshour report on the situation, and they were suggesting that when people said that a North Korean ICBM could reach the continental United States they meant the little tiny western tip of Alaska where somebody should drop Sarah Palin.
--------------------
Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
I've found a Reagan-era Republican who agrees with me.
quote:
Of much more importance in terms of my reluctance to join the Democratic Party is that the party doesn’t really seem to stand for anything other than opposition to the GOP. Admittedly, just about everything the Republicans are doing deserves to be opposed. But the Democrats also need a positive agenda of their own.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
Like a boatload of other people, that guy is talking about what the Democrats need to do. But he's not predicting Trump will be re-elected. Seeing as it will be 3 1/2 years before Americans go to the polls to make that choice, you're getting way out front of anything currently known facts can support.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
