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Source: (consider it) Thread: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread
Brenda Clough
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People voted for T-boy because they were worried about the fate of white Christian America. This is a free click. Clearly it was not enough for these people to have a Christian America, the white part is essential. Stick a fork in it, the church is done in this country.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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simontoad
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I've found a Reagan-era Republican who agrees with me.

quote:
Of much more importance in terms of my reluctance to join the Democratic Party is that the party doesn’t really seem to stand for anything other than opposition to the GOP. Admittedly, just about everything the Republicans are doing deserves to be opposed. But the Democrats also need a positive agenda of their own.

It's the eternal argument, policy v small target strategy. Here, the opposing party and the media will always pester you to release policy detail. Here's why that hasn't happened in Australia for a while.

Back in 1992, the liberals (read conservatives) tried a strategy of campaigning on a major reform to the tax system, a tax on spending called the GST. They announced about a year out from the election that this was their policy, announcing the details as the election got closer.

Despite the fact that he had supported just this policy as Treasurer, the Labor Prime Minister Paul Keating relentlessly attacked the idea, and the media has an extended day out speculating about what would and wouldn't be taxed, and how everything would work.

The Liberals lost that election, an election that was deemed unlosable, and Keating was triumphant, calling those who had supported him during the campaign the 'true believers'.

The liberals spent the rest of the 1990's telling the electorate that the GST was dead, and won government in 1996. They then set about implementing the GST, and it commenced operating in 2000.

It was a very successful and much-needed reform, and there is no opposition to it. People do oppose increases to the rate of GST whenever that is floated on equity grounds, an echo of one plank of the ALP's opposition.

The moral of the story is that if you put up a policy too long before the election, it will be a tattered mess by polling day, whatever its merits. To make controversial policy changes, simply get the reins of power and implement.

I note some differences between the USA and Australia that are relevant in determining strategy:

1. The media environment was not very polarised in Australia in 1993, and while there are indications that might change, it's still not polarised here. I think this is a major difference.

2. Everybody is legally obliged to vote in Australia.

3. The members of the Executive branch of Government must have a seat in the Parliament. Executive Government goes with the control of the lower house of Parliament. This makes it much easier to implement your policies that in the American system.

[ 06. July 2017, 02:49: Message edited by: simontoad ]

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Like a boatload of other people, that guy is talking about what the Democrats need to do. But he's not predicting Trump will be re-elected.

Where I found agreement was in that he was saying the Dems need to stand for something and not simply against the Republicans; the article also addresses some of the strategic avenues that could be pursued to that end and which I'm disappointed not to have seen discussed here more.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Where I found agreement was in that he was saying the Dems need to stand for something and not simply against the Republicans;

Yes, yes, 1000x yes. I've been saying this. Not only do the Dems need to stand for something, they have got to present it as an intuitable narrative about what American can be, not as a bunch of wonky policy bullet points.

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Golden Key
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So NPR did its annual radio reading of our Declaration of Independence yesterday, and added a Twitter version.

And "Trump supporters called it 'propaganda'" (GQ). They didn't recognize it at all, didn't figure "hmm...old-fashioned language, 4th of July, must be one of the founding documents"...
[Roll Eyes]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Eutychus
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And this is a victory for the opposition how, exactly?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mdijon
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Who claimed it was a victory? I'm not following.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Golden Key
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Didn't claim it was any kind of victory for anyone. Only possible victory I can see is for people who don't want us to remember that founding stuff, or where we came from. But I didn't even claim that.

It's just ironic, in the American sense.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Jane R
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Somewhere, George III is laughing...
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Golden Key
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...and the Founding Fathers have gone off to get drunk.

(I heard they smashed a pub, the night before some big vote, so badly that they had to pay damages.)

And Abigail Adams is saying "if they'd just 'remembered the ladies' in setting up the gov't, as I counseled my husband, this never would've happened".

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
So NPR did its annual radio reading of our Declaration of Independence yesterday, and added a Twitter version.

And "Trump supporters called it 'propaganda'" (GQ). They didn't recognize it at all, didn't figure "hmm...old-fashioned language, 4th of July, must be one of the founding documents"...
[Roll Eyes]

I read some of the comments. I think many of them very much understood what document it was. They just thought it was quoted as a political statement against them. Not because they think the document is, but because they think NPR is.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Where I found agreement was in that he was saying the Dems need to stand for something and not simply against the Republicans; the article also addresses some of the strategic avenues that could be pursued to that end and which I'm disappointed not to have seen discussed here more.

I'm reminded of this recent exchange:

quote:
@GOP
“We’ve got to fix what’s broken.” Where's your plan, @HillaryClinton?

quote:
@HillaryClinton
Right here. Includes radical provisions like how not to kick 23 mil ppl off their coverage. Feel free to run w/it.
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/health-care/ …

It seems extra precious to claim that after implementing the most far-reaching American social reform of the past half century the Democrats don't really stand for anything. It's a special kind of rhetorical jiu-jitsu to argue that being against the demolition of an important Democratic achievement means that they're not "for" anything.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Eutychus
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As that article says, what is needed is not just good policy wonks but simple, positive articulations of them. Obama obviously had that in spades. The Democrats need to find someone to embody the same sort of thing.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
As that article says, what is needed is not just good policy wonks but simple, positive articulations of them. Obama obviously had that in spades. The Democrats need to find someone to embody the same sort of thing.

Are you complaining that the Democrats don't stand for anything or that they don't put on the kind of show you like? I can understand each argument, but they're very different claims.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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lilBuddha
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Hate to make Americans more nervous, but do a search for john oliver sinclair broadcasting
Essentially, a large ultra-conservative media company is set to by many local television stations and force them to run segments that make Fox look like it actually is Fair and Balanced.
So, your everyday news programme will run propaganda between car crashes and cute animals. If you do not think this will have an effect on your next elections...

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
As that article says, what is needed is not just good policy wonks but simple, positive articulations of them. Obama obviously had that in spades. The Democrats need to find someone to embody the same sort of thing.

Obama "had that in spades" (an unfortunate turn of phase) yet Faux News still managed to convince a significant number of Americans that ACA signaled the treasonous loss of all their freedoms.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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simontoad
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I read that article fully Eutychus instead of leaving the page in disgust a few paragraphs in. It's always your enemies that want you to run on policy, and that bloke is no friend of the progressive side of politics. He's not a politician either. He's a policy wonk, and he admits it. Of course policy-wonks want to see the details. Everyone else is happy with the t-shirt.

As far as I'm aware, Republican policy consists of de-regulating to the max, taxing as little as possible, and leaving Americans to flourish or perish as the market wills. They sell it by calling it "Freedom!". That's politics.

B.Bragg sings "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to sell." He's very very wrong about that, but I'm quoting him out of context. Kev Carmody sings, "Freedom equality justice are one. If we resist then justice and freedom will come." I like that better. Democratic policy statement?

Kev Carmody and Tiddas: Freedom

The vid has two nasty jumps in it, but I love Tiddas, so I posted this version anyway.

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Human

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Are you complaining that the Democrats don't stand for anything or that they don't put on the kind of show you like? I can understand each argument, but they're very different claims.

The opposition I read to Trump is mostly critical of him personally, or of his supporters, which in my view distracts attention from the more important issue of criticism of his policies.

I would prefer to read more constructive criticism of his policies and suggestions for alternatives (perhaps healthcare is the one issue for which this is actually happening, and maybe it will be the one that eventually sinks the GOP ship).

I'm not complaining that the Democrats aren't putting on a show I like, since I don't like shows and don't have a US vote, but I think that positive policy aims need to be presented in an appealing way.

The Trump supporters' criticism of Democrats that I read on other fora that makes the most sense to me is "we won. Get over it". I'd like to see more forward-looking arguments.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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simontoad
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Healthcare is a good example of how Trump can make himself less open to attack on policy grounds. He makes a plethora of vague statements, talks about how complicated it is, and when it goes badly he uses an ally in the media to make sure he doesn't get the blame. Sack Paul Ryan, they cried! Nobody blamed Trump on the right, least of all himself, when the House Bill hit a speed-bump.

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Human

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The Trump supporters' criticism of Democrats that I read on other fora that makes the most sense to me is "we won. Get over it". I'd like to see more forward-looking arguments.

<tangent> Ironically this is just what they were unable to do for 8 years of Obama </tangent>

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Brenda Clough
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Historically, they never got over the Civil War either.

It is important to remember that the Democrats have neither house of Congress. There is a real limit to what they can do, with the best will in the world. They cannot propose legislation. They cannot dictate policy.

And there is a good tactical reason to just sit back, and let the GOP pick up the ball and run. They said they could do it. They said it for seven years, shilling the most extreme and un-passable policies in the secure knowledge that Barack Obama would veto their excesses. Now, they have to put their money where their mouth is. They actually have to govern. And ooh, who would have thought, it's hard. Whatever happens, it's all on them.

Here (alas, from the POST, so it'll cost you a click)
is one of many articles about how the citizenry actually does not like the candy the GOP is shilling, now that they get to look at it. The money quote: "For all 90 minutes, a woman named Yaneth Poarch, 46, stood behind the senator holding a sign with caricatures of Republican leaders, and the warning “When you lose your health care, remember who took it away.” "

[ 07. July 2017, 13:50: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Crœsos
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You know, if you asked me to rank the members of the Trump administration by who would be most likely to be caught doing some inappropriate touching, Mike Pence would have been pretty near the bottom of the list.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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W Hyatt
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The opposition I read to Trump is mostly critical of him personally, or of his supporters, which in my view distracts attention from the more important issue of criticism of his policies.

But the biggest problems with him being President are due to his personal character more than his policies.

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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The opposition I read to Trump is mostly critical of him personally, or of his supporters, which in my view distracts attention from the more important issue of criticism of his policies.

But the biggest problems with him being President are due to his personal character more than his policies.
Surely it's both?

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Hallellou, hallellou

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Lamb Chopped
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IMNSHO He doesn't have any policies. He has whims, idees fixes, and above all, reactions. I honestly don't think he's given enough thought to anything to call it a policy, even a bad one.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
IMNSHO He doesn't have any policies. He has whims, idees fixes, and above all, reactions. I honestly don't think he's given enough thought to anything to call it a policy, even a bad one.

Don't you think the absence of policies was his greatest strength in the campaign? It worked then and as far as popularity back home is concerned, it seems too be working now.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
IMNSHO He doesn't have any policies. He has whims, idees fixes, and above all, reactions. I honestly don't think he's given enough thought to anything to call it a policy, even a bad one.

I don't know about that. The anti-immigrant thing may be an idée fixe, but Trump (or his appointees, which amounts to the same thing) has also made significant policy changes there. Interestingly this is one of the ways the Trump administration differs from what we'd expect from a generic Republican presidency. I could see a President Cruz pulling the plug on the Affordable Care Act or a President Rubio gutting the EPA, but the I don't think any other major Republican political figure would be this harshly anti-immigrant.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
You know, if you asked me to rank the members of the Trump administration by who would be most likely to be caught doing some inappropriate touching, Mike Pence would have been pretty near the bottom of the list.

He'd be at the top of mine because he is so violently anti-gay. It's the loudest homophobes who are found in the restrooms at airports doing naughty things with baggage boys.

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Jane R
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Croesus:
quote:
...if you asked me to rank the members of the Trump administration by who would be most likely to be caught doing some inappropriate touching, Mike Pence would have been pretty near the bottom of the list.
Really? He'd have been near the top of mine as soon as I found out about his ludicrous and outdated attitudes to dining alone with women. He's obviously scared of *something*, if he thinks he needs a chaperone to have dinner in a public place with any woman not his wife.

Wonder how many thousands of dollars he wasted by touching that satellite...

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Golden Key
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Why weren't Pence and the other men wearing gear appropriate for clean rooms?

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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simontoad
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That whole thing about Pence and women reminds me of Margaret Attwood's chilling novel The Handmaid's Tale.

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Human

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Jane R
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simontoad, others have noted the resemblance to The Handmaid's Tale...
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Doublethink.
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WTF is this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-40541611 ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
WTF is this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-40541611 ?

Hopefully he's ill and not coping with the trip.

Putting his daughter in place of a high ranking official or diplomat? Nothing surprises me about the man.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Hopefully he's ill and not coping with the trip.

quote:
The US president had stepped away for a meeting with the Indonesian leader during the G20 meeting.


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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
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quote:
Ms Trump did not seem to make any major contribution to the session on African migration and health during her father's absence.
...but her presence, in place of the President or a ranking official with a specific interest in the discussion, was suggestive of a lack of interest on the part of the US administration.

It's wild. We (UK) get riled when MPs pay their wives or children for *constituency* duties for which they are not qualified and in which roles they fail to perform.

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
IMNSHO He doesn't have any policies. He has whims, idees fixes, and above all, reactions. I honestly don't think he's given enough thought to anything to call it a policy, even a bad one.

Don't you think the absence of policies was his greatest strength in the campaign? It worked then and as far as popularity back home is concerned, it seems too be working now.
"Working" being a matter of definition, of course. It is popular among a certain set of his supporters-- which in Trump's book would qualify as "working". In the sense of helping the country run effectively and move forward-- not so much.

Really, Trump has never stopped campaigning. That's what being president means to him-- campaigning. He has no need for policies-- that's governing-- dull, tedious work he can't even be bothered to hire staff to do. But campaigning-- selling himself-- that's his jam.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
quote:
Ms Trump did not seem to make any major contribution to the session on African migration and health during her father's absence.
...but her presence, in place of the President or a ranking official with a specific interest in the discussion, was suggestive of a lack of interest on the part of the US administration.

It's wild. We (UK) get riled when MPs pay their wives or children for *constituency* duties for which they are not qualified and in which roles they fail to perform.

Politico reports that according to the annual White House statement, she receives no salary for her position as "First Daughter and Advisor to the President." Neither does Jared Kushner ("Assistant to the President and Senior Advisor") or Cordish Reed ("Assistant to the President for Intergovernmental and Technology Initiatives").

It might be worth paying each member of the Trump family a few hundred grand if by doing so we could be sure that they wouldn't actually try to do anything.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Was tagging along with my mom at her doctor's appointment, and the TV in the waiting room was showing a clip of the Cherri in Chief. He spent a good ten minutes talking about someone who had nice things to say about him, making sure to emphasize that he didn't need anyone's validation. Seriously, all he was talking about was himself and what everyone thought of him. It was depressing and pathetic.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Chris Uhlmann's ¹ assessment seems depressing accurate.

Trump in interested only in fame and lacks competence for his role outside a very narrow range of action.

----

¹ Insiders ABC

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Seriously, all he was talking about was himself and what everyone thought of him.

Like the gulls in Finding Nemo. One thought, over and over; but even more self-centered. 'Me. Me. Me. Me. Me. Me. Me. Me.'

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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So apparently Donald Trump, Jr. arranged a meeting between a Russian lawyer who's in tight with the Russian government, Paul Manafort, and the ubiquitous Jared Kushner because the Russians were offering damaging information on Hillary Clinton. None of the participants reported this meeting, despite Kushner going through a security check for his current position as White House advisor. Trump II's explanation was that he thought he was getting hacked data from a foreign government but it turned out Veselnitskaya, the Russian lawyer in question, just wanted to talk about getting some Russian mob money unfrozen. (I'm getting the feeling that none of the Trump kids are used to having to explain themselves. Shut up, Donny! You're not helping yourself.)

So this would seem to at least step up to the line of "colluding with the Russian government to influence the election", if not leap over it. Which brings us to the question of how much treason Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan are willing to tolerate to get that upper-income tax cut? So far, the answer seems to be "a lot".

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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It's difficult to believe that Lyin' Don didn't know about what his son, his son-in-law and his campaign manager were doing in his name and to his campaign. Over in the Atlantic this argument is summarized cogently.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
None of the participants reported this meeting, despite Kushner going through a security check for his current position as White House advisor.

Point of order, I thought Kushner did declare it (although not the alleged agenda)?

[ETA: at least belatedly; "Kushner disclosed the meeting in revised forms for his security clearance, his lawyer said", Source]

[ 10. July 2017, 20:31: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
None of the participants reported this meeting, despite Kushner going through a security check for his current position as White House advisor.

Point of order, I thought Kushner did declare it (although not the alleged agenda)?

[ETA: at least belatedly; "Kushner disclosed the meeting in revised forms for his security clearance, his lawyer said", Source]

I'm not sure what to make of this belated confession. "Oh, you mean 'meetings with foreigners' includes Russians too! Who knew?" That seems less like someone making a good faith effort than someone getting caught and attempting some damage control.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I'm not sure what to make of this belated confession. "Oh, you mean 'meetings with foreigners' includes Russians too! Who knew?" That seems less like someone making a good faith effort than someone getting caught and attempting some damage control.

It depends somewhat on how long ago he did it; I don't get the impression it's that recent, but I haven't seen a date.

It doesn't look good for them all, though. AIUI Trump Sr. was in the same building at the time, and the meeting took place in close proximity to Trump statements about HRC e-mails. In France, all this in the hands of an investigating magistrate would constitute un faisceau d'indices (roughly, "a suggestive pattern of clues"), which would be enough to bring charges here, but it's all terribly circumstantial so far, and remember Trump Sr. is a class act in wriggling.

Setting off to read this now.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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W Hyatt
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# 14250

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The meeting took place in June of 2016, after Trump won the Republican nomination.

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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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So trumpy goes to Poland, tells the Poles about standing together, being an ally and that western values will never be broken.

The he goes to the G20 in Hamburg. 19 countries sign the communiqué and America doesn't. Way to stand together-- okay, yes, um, yah you're right, we don't want to stand anywhere near him. These communiuqués are worked on way in advance: this was giving everyone else in the world the finger. Well we all know trumpy either doesn’t know what he is talking about, can’t deliver on anything, and is quite likely lying anyway. As the world moves on to a world where America doesn't matter. America alone.

Meanwhile, Mike Pence wants to fit in with his stink-fingering boss so he specifically touches space equipment at NASA where the sign says "do not touch". Can't American politicians keep their hands to themselves?

[ 11. July 2017, 03:41: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
The meeting took place in June of 2016, after Trump won the Republican nomination.

I meant we don't know when Kushner disclosed the meeting for his security clearance.

As far as I can tell, what this meeting might have done is broken campaign finance laws by the parties agreeing to meet on the basis of an offer of a "thing of value" from a foreign entity to a US political campaign. I like this to the extent that it fits my prediction of Trump eventually being brought down by relatively minor technicalities rather than, say, some flagrant piece of kompromat. Still no smoking gun though.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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The BBC is reporting Trump's visit is being planned for 2018 - my guess is they're hoping he will have been impeached by then.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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