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Source: (consider it) Thread: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread
Ohher
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A forlorn hope, I suspect. An impeachment process
launched against a Republican president by the House with its Republican majority? Trial by a Republican-majority Senate? The latter seems slightly more possible, but the process starts in the House. And it's by no means a sure bet that the House majority will change hands even after the 2018 midterms, though we can work toward that end.

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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Pangolin Guerre
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As I stated on another thread, I would not be entirely surprised by a Praetorian move/palace coup/call-it-what-you-will. (From Graves, when Claudius is pulled from behind a curtain, a Praetorian screams at German mercenary, "He's the bloody Kaiser!" I await to see who that kaiser might be. Start a pool?)
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Martin60
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There are no saddles, only sinks. A standard deviation toward worst case goes on and on in the chaos of politics, religion. Trump cannot lose. Despite winning nothing of any substance. Liberalism has lost. Internationally, nationally, everywhere except within the beleaguered EU. There's not a functional trace of it in religion. Sunni SCIS is defeated by overwhelming US firepower above Shia ground forces in ruined Mosul. What can possibly stop that water bed rebounding? It's OK, the US will continue to make a fortune. Jihadists will continue to murder Europeans. This is Trump's world: divide and do deals with the fragments.

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Love wins

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
The meeting took place in June of 2016, after Trump won the Republican nomination.

I meant we don't know when Kushner disclosed the meeting for his security clearance.
Kushner filed his first revision when it came out in early April that he'd omitted meetings with various Russians from his security clearance application. He had to revise again when it came out in late May that Kushner had still more contacts with Russian officials that had somehow slipped his mind.

Beware Russian diplomats! They have the power to cloud the minds of men.

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Still no smoking gun though.

You mean something like an e-mail to Trump Jr. saying the Russians want to help your dad's campaign, let's meet and talk about it? Something like that?

In another amazing 'coincidence', Trump Sr.'s very first tweet about Hillary Clinton's e-mails seems to have happened at 4:40 pm (Eastern Time) the day of Trump Jr.'s meeting.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Brenda Clough
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Surely of no significance. Coincidence! Who are you going to believe, a person named Donald Trump, or your own ears and eyes?

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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la vie en rouge
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Liberalism has lost. Internationally, nationally, everywhere except within the beleaguered EU.

That's a pretty big except. As this article in the Guardian pointed about a couple of months ago, the liberal centre in Europe is actually holding up pretty well (note that it was written before the definitive election of Macron). Possibly the democratic future of liberalism is a bit less English speaking (I mean so long as you ignore the fact that these days the President of France speaks better English than the President of the United States [Snigger] ) but the supposed populist domino effect in Europe hasn’t happened.

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Rent my holiday home in the South of France

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Pangolin Guerre
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Might I add Canada? Not to be focussed on my navel, but since you are focussed on yours, Martin....
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Crœsos
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# 238

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Seriously, WTF does Trump Jr. think he's doing here? (Here's part 1, and here is a screenshot to preserve the tweet after his apoplectic lawyer makes him delete it.) "Here is a complete e-mail chain of me setting up collusion between my father's campaign and someone identified to me as a representative of 'Russia and its government'" is not a typical way to defend yourself against accusations of colluding with the Russian government. Is he trying to get back at dad because he didn't get that car when he turned 16 or something? Or does he simply not understand how grossly illegal and unethical those actions were?

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Seriously, WTF does Trump Jr. think he's doing here?

Well, Trump Jr.'s not part of the Trump administration so the rules don't apply to him. He never talks to anyone in the administration which is why Trump Sr has no conflict of interest. Nobody in the administration or the campaign knew what Trump Jr. was doing. In fact, Trump Jr. doesn't know anyone in the Trump administration. He's never even met the President. He's only just realised that the President is that old guy who used to lech over his sister.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Seriously, WTF does Trump Jr. think he's doing here? (Here's part 1, and here is a screenshot to preserve the tweet after his apoplectic lawyer makes him delete it.) "Here is a complete e-mail chain of me setting up collusion between my father's campaign and someone identified to me as a representative of 'Russia and its government'" is not a typical way to defend yourself against accusations of colluding with the Russian government. Is he trying to get back at dad because he didn't get that car when he turned 16 or something? Or does he simply not understand how grossly illegal and unethical those actions were?

Well that appears to be a smoking gun for Don Jr. I guess he's trying to get it out himself before it's leaked.

It still doesn't directly implicate his dad, though, does it? And he's a master wriggler.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
In another amazing 'coincidence', Trump Sr.'s very first tweet about Hillary Clinton's e-mails seems to have happened at 4:40 pm (Eastern Time) the day of Trump Jr.'s meeting.

Oh, I know. But I'm sure a lot of other things did too, as even Keith Oberlmann admits. It really is going to have to be ironclad.

In prison I've seen the other side of this. I've seen people convicted because a) their cell phone was on and in the vicinity of the crime b) their cell phone was on and not in the vicinity of the crime ("you obviously cunningly left it at home") c) their cell phone was off at the time of the crime ("you obviously switched it off to disguise where you were") - and I'm not convinced any of those in any of these scenarios were guilty.

[ 11. July 2017, 16:36: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Brenda Clough
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I would bet that all of these convicted persons were poor, or persons of color or ethnicity. Don Jr. has been pampered all his life. He probably does not realize there were laws -- they never hampered him before. Remember the basic operating principle here: For me, not you. I get to blow through federal laws without looking back; you get Bengazi hearings. I get to be cozy with Russians, you get demands for a birth certificate. I get to grope the genitalia of women, you get denunciations of your character and accusations of child trafficking out of pizza parlors.

[ 11. July 2017, 17:24: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Eutychus
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Are you watching Sean Hannity tonight? Don Jr. is apparently on. Maybe he'll claim its a Democrat setup.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Well that appears to be a smoking gun for Don Jr. I guess he's trying to get it out himself before it's leaked.

The interesting question here is who are the source(s) for this information? The New York Times refers to "three people with knowledge of the email" or three "White House advisers". Who has such a vendetta against Donald Trump, Jr.?

The calls are coming from inside the (White) house! [Eek!]

Some speculation I've seen is that Trump Jr. is a sacrifice who [jumped / was pushed] to protect Jared Kushner, who also attended those meetings and would face much more serious legal jeopardy (as someone with an official position within the White House and who had to fill out a lot of questionnaires to get there) than Trump Jr. would.

[ 11. July 2017, 17:27: Message edited by: Crœsos ]

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Brenda Clough
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He would risk jail time for dear Jared? Really? We've got to be at least dimly plausible with these scenarios, you know. Credulity is not only strained, it's limping with a crutch.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
He would risk jail time for dear Jared? Really? We've got to be at least dimly plausible with these scenarios, you know. Credulity is not only strained, it's limping with a crutch.

I would guess that the reasoning is more that Jr would be called naughty and Kushner might be called criminal.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
He would risk jail time for dear Jared? Really? We've got to be at least dimly plausible with these scenarios, you know. Credulity is not only strained, it's limping with a crutch.

Well, not voluntarily, nor is it certain that anything described so far would result in jail time. Most FEC violations are settled with fines.

I'm speculating on the possibility that the Times' sources are Kushner loyalists banking on Trump Jr. not having anything that he could trade to prosecutors (if he ever faces prosecutors) that would implicate Kushner. Someone in the White House seems to have it in for Trump Jr.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Jane R
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# 331

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...so they're loyal to the King, sorry I mean the President, they just think he needs different advisors?

Niccolo Machiavelli: five hundred years old and still topical.

[ 11. July 2017, 18:23: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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stonespring
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It appears part of the Trump coterie's defense to all these recent allegations is that the Ukrainian government was helping the Clinton campaign with info that made Trump look bad. Does anyone know what they are referring to if there is any truth to it?
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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
It appears part of the Trump coterie's defense to all these recent allegations is that the Ukrainian government was helping the Clinton campaign with info that made Trump look bad. Does anyone know what they are referring to if there is any truth to it?

Last August the Ukrainian government made public a handwritten ledger claiming Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort (one of the attendees at the Veselnitskaya meeting) worked for Ukraine's corrupt, pro-Russian former President Viktor Yanukovych. It was later confirmed that Manafort did indeed get paid by Yanukovych.

As far as I know, no one has ever demonstrated that the Ukrainian government in any way colluded with the Clinton campaign in making this information public. My own personal take is that they were just pissed off that the Trump campaign had so many ties to the Russians.

[ 11. July 2017, 19:33: Message edited by: Crœsos ]

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
It appears part of the Trump coterie's defense to all these recent allegations is that the Ukrainian government was helping the Clinton campaign with info that made Trump look bad. Does anyone know what they are referring to if there is any truth to it?

Will the projection and lies never stop?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Crœsos
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There's a tantalizing bit near the end of Trump Jr.'s self-incriminating e-mail dump this morning. The last thing Rob Goldstone writes to Trump Jr. is:

quote:
I can also send this info to your father via Rhona, but it is ultra sensitive so wanted to send to you first.
There's the suggestion that Trump Sr. should be informed of this, but no real evidence that he actually was. But who is "Rhona"? Via Politico:

quote:
When longtime friends and associates of President Donald Trump want to reach him, they don’t go directly to the White House. Instead, they call the woman who’s been the gatekeeper at Trump Tower for a quarter century: Rhona Graff.

<snip>

“If I wanted to get something to Trump without calling his cell phone, I’d send it to Rhona,” said another confidant who goes through Graff to get to Trump.

Again, this is proof of nothing but I think someone just moved up a few places in Robert Mueller's subpœna list.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Hedgehog

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# 14125

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Someone in the White House seems to have it in for Trump Jr.

Probably the President: "That little brat has been trading in on my good name long enough. Time to get even. Lock Him Up!"

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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stonespring
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
It appears part of the Trump coterie's defense to all these recent allegations is that the Ukrainian government was helping the Clinton campaign with info that made Trump look bad. Does anyone know what they are referring to if there is any truth to it?

Will the projection and lies never stop?
To clarify, I take just about everything that Trump administration and Trump surrogates say in order to deflect criticism with such a huge grain of salt that I almost assume it to be false until proven true. But since my parents are (to my utter inability to understand) Trump supporters, I feel I need to be able to respond to anything unbelievable that they tell me in Trump's defense.
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simontoad
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# 18096

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I'm not sure what to make of this belated confession. "Oh, you mean 'meetings with foreigners' includes Russians too! Who knew?" That seems less like someone making a good faith effort than someone getting caught and attempting some damage control.

It depends somewhat on how long ago he did it; I don't get the impression it's that recent, but I haven't seen a date.

It doesn't look good for them all, though. AIUI Trump Sr. was in the same building at the time, and the meeting took place in close proximity to Trump statements about HRC e-mails. In France, all this in the hands of an investigating magistrate would constitute un faisceau d'indices (roughly, "a suggestive pattern of clues"), which would be enough to bring charges here, but it's all terribly circumstantial so far, and remember Trump Sr. is a class act in wriggling.

Setting off to read this now.

Eutychus, you are improving the quality of my American Politics bookmarks every time you link something. Thanks.

[ 12. July 2017, 00:09: Message edited by: simontoad ]

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Are you watching Sean Hannity tonight? Don Jr. is apparently on. Maybe he'll claim its a Democrat setup.

Watched it. Hannity is an apologist and an obfuscator. I don't think Trump Jr would have got such an easy ride from Fox News's Shepard Smith. If Trump Jr had offered an interview with Anderson Cooper, I might have been more impressed - after falling off my chair with surprise.

Shep Smith's comments remind me of a famous Sir Humphreyism. " We should always tell the press freely and frankly anything that they could easily find out some other way.". Or have already found out.

Trump Jr was helped to make the best of a bad job. But you wouldn't expect anything else. No doubt the Trump loyalists and Fox News watchers lapped up this further illustration of "mainstream media bias". The world of alternative facts is alive and well.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Penny S
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Before I left the dining table in my house to eat alone in the living room, my "guest" was listening to Nigel Farage chortling about what the liberal media would be making of this business - he definitely supports DT jr in the matter.

(My "guest" knows I do not want to listen to NF, and mocks me for it. In my house. While eating the food I have bought and prepared for her.)

[ 12. July 2017, 09:40: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Eutychus
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hosting/

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
(My "guest" knows I do not want to listen to NF, and mocks me for it. In my house. While eating the food I have bought and prepared for her.)

Don't even think about importing this tale of woe into Purgatory.

/hosting

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Penny S
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# 14768

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Absolutely not - it was a parallel with Trump supporters known to people above.

I am, mostly, observing silence over this issue since I received so little support. I know my place.

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Eirenist
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If I was investigating this, I'd want to know more about Mr Goldstone.

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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'

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Eutychus
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hosting/

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Absolutely not - it was a parallel with Trump supporters known to people above.

I am, mostly, observing silence over this issue since I received so little support. I know my place.

The last part of what I quoted had nothing to do with the subject here and everything to do with your pet peeve.

As does your last paragraph above.

If you want to dispute a Hostly ruling, take it to the Styx.

In the meantime, bringing your blog material up again here will result in notification to the admins.

/hosting

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Someone in the White House seems to have it in for Trump Jr.

Probably the President: "That little brat has been trading in on my good name long enough. Time to get even. Lock Him Up!"
Something about the Trump family dynamics reminds me of the FLDS and other predatory polygamous cults. while the young girls are bullied into service to the old men, the young boys are seen as excess baggage and threats, do often expelled for minor offenses. While we have no explicit evidence of insppropriate relationships here, the dynamics between the three elder siblings very much seem to fall along these lines. The weird role kushner seems to play as co-conspirator in the creepy-weird ivanka/dad relationship and supplanting Jr's just adds to the discomfiture. I'm not making any allegations so much as noting how very very creepy and disfunctional it all seems

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Something about the Trump family dynamics reminds me of the FLDS and other predatory polygamous cults. while the young girls are bullied into service to the old men, the young boys are seen as excess baggage and threats, do often expelled for minor offenses. While we have no explicit evidence of insppropriate relationships here, the dynamics between the three elder siblings very much seem to fall along these lines.

We do have some second-hand evidence of something deeply wrong with the family. How plausible you consider this account to be is a matter of personal judgment, but I can certainly picture Trump Jr. hitting the tweet button and saying "You got time for me now, dad?"

On another, somewhat related matter, Trump's nominee to replace James Comey at the FBI is testifying before the Senate today. Those interested can watch it live on C-SPAN. The folks at Lawfare have a few thoughts on what to look for in Wray's testimony.

[ 12. July 2017, 14:30: Message edited by: Crœsos ]

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Brenda Clough
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I think we can all agree that no amount of money, no quantity of designer clothing/boob lifts/penthouses plated in gold/golf courses/private planes, would make up for the agonies of being in this family.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I think we can all agree that no amount of money, no quantity of designer clothing/boob lifts/penthouses plated in gold/golf courses/private planes, would make up for the agonies of being in this family.

Self-imposed agonies. Hard to work up any sympathy here.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62910 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I think we can all agree that no amount of money, no quantity of designer clothing/boob lifts/penthouses plated in gold/golf courses/private planes, would make up for the agonies of being in this family.

Self-imposed agonies. Hard to work up any sympathy here.
The children didn't have any choice.

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12480 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I think we can all agree that no amount of money, no quantity of designer clothing/boob lifts/penthouses plated in gold/golf courses/private planes, would make up for the agonies of being in this family.

Self-imposed agonies. Hard to work up any sympathy here.
The children didn't have any choice.
They didn't have any choice to be his children. They have had plenty of choice since then not to be his stooges.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62910 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
The children didn't have any choice.

They didn't have any choice to be his children. They have had plenty of choice since then not to be his stooges.
Tiffany Trump, for example, seems to have minimal contact with her father and half-siblings. At age 11 Barron Trump doesn't have much choice. He's probably not being cultivated by Russians as an inroad to reaching his father either, though with the FSB you can never really be sure.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10305 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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It is famously true that you are stuck with your relatives. See? A silver lining in every cloud! However dysfunctional and repellent your family is, at the least you are not in danger of impeachment because of your kids' dingbat emails.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5285 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It is famously true that you are stuck with your relatives. See? A silver lining in every cloud! However dysfunctional and repellent your family is, at the least you are not in danger of impeachment because of your kids' dingbat emails.

But you are not stuck working for them.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62910 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It is famously true that you are stuck with your relatives. See? A silver lining in every cloud! However dysfunctional and repellent your family is, at the least you are not in danger of impeachment because of your kids' dingbat emails.

But you are not stuck working for them.
Oh, I dunno. Junior's job prospects elsewhere don't look too shiny right now.

[ 12. July 2017, 21:07: Message edited by: Ohher ]

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

Posts: 156 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It is famously true that you are stuck with your relatives. See? A silver lining in every cloud! However dysfunctional and repellent your family is, at the least you are not in danger of impeachment because of your kids' dingbat emails.

But you are not stuck working for them.
Oh, I dunno. Junior's job prospects elsewhere don't look too shiny right now.
I don't know about that. He could probably have a successful go at being at tell-all book author (with an appropriately talented ghost-writing collaborator). Maybe not enough to keep him in the style to which he's accustomed, but I imagine his first book, at least, would sell very well.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10305 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Junior could get a cushy job at Fox.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62910 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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Was good enough for a certain ex-governor of a northwestern state.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

Posts: 10190 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607

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Sure, if they're recruiting for Stupid.

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

Posts: 156 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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The trumpies as a group on a game show might be fun, like Family Feud. Or maybe we can vote them on to the island.

I was going to say used car salesman for trumpy junior. You know the seedy kind who take out their combs and slick their hair back while talking to you, and you don't want to shake their hand without washing after. Distinctive scent of Aqua Velva aftershave or if he's learned well from his daddy maybe it's a new one called Afta Vulva.

Posts: 10768 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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You don't have to be smart to do well in property. You just have to have deep pockets.

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

Posts: 930 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
If I was investigating this, I'd want to know more about Mr Goldstone.

Well, for starters, he likes hats.
Posts: 1987 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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Well, it's a start: House Democrat files article of impeachment against Trump.

quote:
Rep. Brad Sherman (D-Calif.) formally introduced an article of impeachment against President Trump on Wednesday that accuses the president of obstructing justice during the federal investigation of Russia’s 2016 election interference...
I think it's hopeless at this point, but 44 years ago I thought the idea of impeaching Nixon was hopeless. (True, he resigned, but the thought of being impeached forced his resignation -- which I don't think will happen this time, unfortunately.)

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

Posts: 9266 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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I'm hoping that T will just flounce and leave. "You don't like me? LOSERS! I never wanted to be president, anyway." And that last bit is true.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17574 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged



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