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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
How serious is this? Is the media hyping it? Or am I right to be afraid?
A (retired) twenty-five year veteran of the U.S. Army officer corps shares what he's looking for before worrying too much:
quote:
It has long been apparent that this president is not conversant with international issues, military issues, and, apparently, economics. But what he does have is power, specifically, the ability to issue launch orders for various forms of military attacks. Disassociated from realities in all three of those areas, it seems quite possible that this commander-in-chief might, in a fit of pique, actually initiate a new war. (It won't be his fault, in his mind of course, despite the fact that I have just demonstrated how this entire crisis is the creation of his own actions.)
So what am I looking for as a siren?
James Mattis.
If Secretary of Defense Mattis resigns, anytime soon (say in the next few weeks), all bets are off. Why does this worry me? Because Mattis would resign, as I think would national security adviser H.R. McMaster, should an order be issued to commit overt military action. If you see that happen, maybe we should all worry. Until then, relax but monitor.
The whole thing isn't that long and is well worth the read. It should be noted that Bateman's assessment of James Mattis comes from personal contact.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Seem to recall most Brits didn't no where the Falklands were in April 82, or that we'd stuck a Union Jack there centuries earlier.
Know we didn't.
I certainly didn't, though in my defence I was only 3 years old at the time.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I didn't initially know where the Falklands were, but it was made very clear quickly. So I did know before any shots were fired.
I suspect that Trump doesn't know or care where Korea is. It is "Not America", which is all he cares about.
He now says they are "Locked and loaded". Proving he still thinks he is playing a computer game.
I am pleased that the message coming out of other parts of government is "Don't listen to the orange pumpkin, we are trying to negotiate."
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Well, it's a long way from the US mainland, and has a long and interesting history.
The Wikipedia article is informative:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guam
Lovely beaches, but I'm not sure I'd want to be there just now...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I suspect that Trump doesn't know or care where Korea is. It is "Not America", which is all he cares about.
He now says they are "Locked and loaded". Proving he still thinks he is playing a computer game.
I am pleased that the message coming out of other parts of government is "Don't listen to the orange pumpkin, we are trying to negotiate."
Trump is being used as a blunt instrument against the NK regime in the same way as Bush Jr. was used against the Sadam regime.
The Barthe Party chose to call his bluff and paid the price. Not quick and not clean, as Iraq and the surrounding region can tell us now, 14 long years later.
Question is, will the Kim regime stand down? Probably not. Will it disarm? Probably not. Will it stop behaving provocatively? Rational people of the world are hoping it will.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
By whom is Trump being used, though? Blunt instrument he may be, but a very dangerous one, liable to rebound on the wielders...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And I didn't know where Guam was until just now.
A Mystery Worshipper has been there.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I keep wondering how much longer before someone forcibly drags him to a neurologist. I would put large amounts of money on a dementia diagnosis. Seriously, how is this not happening?
I understand the difference between dementia and assholery, and between dementia and being an unlikable president. The problem is, it's clear he's all three. And the dementia isn't going to get any better, and I can't think of a more obvious way for him to exhibit it. Seriously, taking off his clothes in public would be less troubling.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
The problem is, it's clear he's all three.
Exactly right - he is all three. Now let's assume that he wasn't a nasty asshole. If he just exhibited whatever signs of dementia you think he has, but wasn't a nasty asshole, would he look significantly worse than Reagan?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
The problem is, it's clear he's all three.
Exactly right - he is all three. Now let's assume that he wasn't a nasty asshole. If he just exhibited whatever signs of dementia you think he has, but wasn't a nasty asshole, would he look significantly worse than Reagan?
That is difficult. Reagan had better people around him. If Cheeto weren't an areshole, he'd have less nasty people, but would they be competent.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
The problem is, it's clear he's all three.
Exactly right - he is all three. Now let's assume that he wasn't a nasty asshole. If he just exhibited whatever signs of dementia you think he has, but wasn't a nasty asshole, would he look significantly worse than Reagan?
Does it matter? If Reagan was demented (and I understand that he was), he ought to have been retired. The fact that the country survived it doesn't mean it's a pattern to copy.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
By whom is Trump being used, though? Blunt instrument he may be, but a very dangerous one, liable to rebound on the wielders...
IJ
Well, since Russia installed him as president, and since he has private meeting(s)* with Putin and no USA personnel, I'd say it's pretty obvious who's using him. Whether he knows it or not, whether he wants it or not. Trump is a sucker for macho shit and flattery and probably thinks Vlad is his best bud. Wipe out the USA's credibility as a superpower and ally, and they can divvy up the world with China. Trump truly was The Siberian Candidate.
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*we have no way of knowing how many, and his flunkies take lots of meetings with Russia as well
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Sorry to interpolate my own psyche, but I just had a dream in which I met and talked with a guy wearing a t-shirt identical to my Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy t-shirt. I didn't twig to this in my dream, and I can't remember what was said, but now I realise that the guy was STEVE BANNON.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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MaryLouise
Shipmate
# 18697
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Sorry to interpolate my own psyche, but I just had a dream in which I met and talked with a guy wearing a t-shirt identical to my Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy t-shirt. I didn't twig to this in my dream, and I can't remember what was said, but now I realise that the guy was STEVE BANNON.
No wonder those dolphins I saw frisking in the waves off Cape Point yesterday were all shouting 'So long, and thanks for all the fish!'
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“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”
-- Ivy Compton-Burnett
Posts: 646 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Nov 2016
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MaryLouise
Shipmate
# 18697
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Posted
A tweet pertinent to earlier conversation on this thread. Trump can tweet but can't figure out Google Earth?
Rogue WH Snr Advisor @RogueSNRadvisor 8h8 hours ago
'Trump had no idea where Venezuela was located prior to a few weeks ago. Gen. Kelly brings an atlas to every meeting now.'
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“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”
-- Ivy Compton-Burnett
Posts: 646 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Nov 2016
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
T reportedly doesn't use computers, just his cell phone, as of many months ago. Though I've heard since then that he sometimes uses a tablet.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
He's now threatening Venezuela. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
WaPo headline: Trump says he does not rule out ‘military option’ to deal with strife in Venezuela.
quote:
“We have troops all over the world in places that are very far away,” Trump told reporters at his Bedminster, N.J., golf club after a meeting with Secretary of State Rex Tillerson. “Venezuela is not very far away. . . . We have many options, including a possible military option if necessary.”
Asked whether he was talking about a U.S.-led operation, Trump said: “We don’t talk about it. But the military option is certainly something we could pursue.” He did not elaborate.
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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MaryLouise
Shipmate
# 18697
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Posted
Am I over-caffeinated or something?
Anyhow, saw this and it is painful but informative (for me) reading on the history of Guam.
An Open Letter from Guam to America
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“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”
-- Ivy Compton-Burnett
Posts: 646 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Nov 2016
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Doone
Shipmate
# 18470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MaryLouise:
Am I over-caffeinated or something?
Anyhow, saw this and it is painful but informative (for me) reading on the history of Guam.
An Open Letter from Guam to America
![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
Posts: 2208 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2015
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I do not like that letter one bit. Its a gutless and stupid letter that could well have been written by an isolationist here in Australia. The Kim Jung whatevers of this world need to be opposed. Usually talking will do the trick, but sometimes more has to be done. It's not good enough to turn your back and say that if you leave that to others, you will be OK and not have to take a risk, or put your hand in your pocket. That'd be like taking a pay-rise hard won by a Union, and not being a member of the Union yourself, striking when you're told and paying your dues. This person wants to be a blackleg, a freeloader.
Guam can be sovereign if it wants, but it still has to contribute, and that's by hosting military bases on its strategically important soil. My understanding is that many people in Guam are quite happy with the present arrangements.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Which one? T, or his lickspittle toady, Calvo?
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Well I meant T, but anybody who works for him has to be also, else why would they work for him?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Indeed. I guessed you meant T, but it was the conversation between him and Calvo that made me chunder.
Doubtless T will welcome the increase in the number of tourists visiting the remains of LA, should Mr. Trim succeed in ruining it in due course.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
... Guam can be sovereign if it wants, but it still has to contribute, and that's by hosting military bases on its strategically important soil. ...
There's an implication in your post that if a superpower thinks a particular part of the world is strategically important, the occupants are obliged to "host" the superpower's military. Apparently the residents of strategic locations in the Pacific and elsewhere are expected to "contribute" by helping the superpowers to sell more weapons and kill more people. That's a colonial / imperialist attitude: the world is just a big Risk board for wealthy and powerful countries to play on. Small countries are playing pieces to be traded back and forth or wiped out if they don't want to play.
Being sovereign means being sovereign. It means NOT being a client or a vassal or a colony or an outpost. By definition, if Guam were sovereign, the people of Guam would choose how to "contribute". Maybe the people of Guam don't want their "contribution" to be kicking off World War III. Happy or otherwise, better being called isolationist than being used as a human shield.
And remember, the USA has military bases in a lot of places, such as Saudi Arabia. That was one of UBL's major grievances against the Saudi royals and the USA. Colonialism has consequences.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
... Guam can be sovereign if it wants, but it still has to contribute, and that's by hosting military bases on its strategically important soil. ...
If someone else can tell you how you have to "contribute" then you're not sovereign. By definition.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I skimmed the "Open Letter". Yes, there's definitely a tone to it, but it's about what I'd expect from someone in that situation, who doesn't like it.
I followed a link in the article to the author's bio. Background in activism, gov't, publishing, documentary film-making, and academia. Much of it has to do with the US militarization of Guam. This isn't a spur-of-the-moment thing for her.
quote:
Victoria-Lola M. Leon Guerrero is the Managing Editor of University of Guam Press. She teaches Women and Gender Studies and has taught Creative Writing and other writing courses at the University of Guam, Mills College, and Southern High School. She has a Masters of Fine Arts in Creative Writing from Mills College and a Bachelor of Arts in Politics from the University of San Francisco. She was also a Policy Analyst and writer for Speaker Judi Won Pat in the 32nd Guam Legislature. Victoria has published a children's book, short stories, and essays, co-edited an anthology of Chamoru writers, and was the editor of Storyboard: A Journal of Pacific Imagery for three years. Victoria has written several articles and produced two short films critiquing the U.S. militarization of Guam and expressing the need for Chamoru Self-Determination, which are available online. She is the co-chair of the Independence for Guam Task Force and is actively involved in organizing the community to fight for Chamoru self-determination and express their concerns about the U.S. military build-up.
Places that host the US military can suffer for it. Ask Okinawa about the rapes.
[ 13. August 2017, 04:19: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
If you want a better and safer world, you have to be prepared to play your part. That's neither colonialism nor imperialism.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
What if, gasp, you disagree about what makes a better or safer world ? Maybe the people who live in Guam believe in unilateral nuclear disarmament ?
Also, why is Guam part of America, whilst not having full democratic rights ? How is that not-a-colony ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
simontoad--
Guam has done more than its bit, for a long, long time--and I'm not sure it had much choice in the first place.
Doublethink--
It is one of various US possessions, territories, etc. Different ones have different statuses and rules. American Samoa, Puerto Rico, Guam...there are more, but that's all I can think of.
My impression is that the US almost always gets more good out of such relationships than the countries on the other end.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
How does the standard of living in Guam compare with that in, say, the Solomon Islands?
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I hear that The Odious Orange Ozymandias is returning to his lair today, presumably to oversee the destruction by fire and fury of North Korea, Venezuela, other countries that are Not America (and whose locations are, to him, unknown), along with, maybe, those wretched pinkos in Virginia who dared to oppose the hatred of the alt-right (or all-wrong, if you prefer).
An interesting week lies ahead, I think.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Shipmates, I've come to the conclusion that Trump is president because he represents the true face and condition of the USA, and that the Obama presidency and even that of his predecessor, George Bush, masked the dark reality. His statements and actions as president are less to be deprecated than recognised as an honest expression of the dysfunctional nation he represents.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
No. In fact I was gearing up to paint a protest sign (for the counterprotests this weekend) that says this. "We are America", in red and blue on white. (I think on the back side it will say, "Not you.") They are not us, and their odious toupee'd figurehead does not represent us.
This is not a new notion; we've been biting on our imperfections for a long, long time. This poem was probably written sixty years ago. Says it perfectly. We aren't there yet. But we're going there, and we're not going to give up.
A better president than this one said, “We take a step forward sometimes we take two steps back. Sometimes we get two steps forward and take one step back but it’s never a straight line. It’s never easy.”
And this is a POST link and so will cost you a click: The burgeoning resistance movement in deep-red states. In South Dakota, no less, the rubiest of red states, they resent the danger to their health insurance -- who would have thought? The current conditions are not normal, and people recognize that.
[ 15. August 2017, 13:31: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Shipmates, I've come to the conclusion that Trump is president because he represents the true face and condition of the USA, and that the Obama presidency and even that of his predecessor, George Bush, masked the dark reality. His statements and actions as president are less to be deprecated than recognised as an honest expression of the dysfunctional nation he represents.
He's an honest expression of some aspects of the US, obviously. But the whole country? You'll need to back up that claim.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
How significant are the resignations of business chiefs associated with Trump? BBC News reports that a fourth has gone:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40933391
And all The New Messiah can do in return is to tweet an insult to Ken Frazier regarding rip-off drug prices (though, for all I know, that might be true!).
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Has anyone quit his religious advisory panel yet?
(not holding my breath)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I can't find the tweet now. But it ran something like, "Why should they? They sold out on Jesus long ago."
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
How significant are the resignations of business chiefs associated with Trump? BBC News reports that a fourth has gone:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40933391
Only the symbolism is important, because this group barely ever meets and it's not like Trump takes advice anyway. Far more have stayed than have quit. Any protestations about staying in order to have a positive influence are baloney.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
I was heartened somewhat that some did leave...it at least showed some convinction.
But as Ruth said, the flip side is many stayed. Would there be much movement against their companies, or do you think, to the general populace, white supremacists rampaging through streets is not a high priority issue? I mean that sincerely; if people are more concerned with jobs and education and view this as something that happened away from them it may not even make a dent in some people's views. But I hope I'm being pessimistic.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686
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Posted
RuthW, while you bill yourself as "liberal 'peace first' hankie squeezer", your posts, given this and your shot at No Prophet a few days ago are increasingly reading My Country, Right or Left. America is a complex, aspirational thing, and I can understand your frustration - but understand ours. We have to live with a hyper-power which is increasingly unworthy of our trust.
Posts: 758 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Far more have stayed than have quit. Any protestations about staying in order to have a positive influence are baloney.
The only reasons for staying are hubris, and an insufficiently strong moral reaction to white supremacy.
As many have observed, it's incredible that Trump takes 2 days to "get the facts" before condemning neo-nazis, and about 2 hours to condemn the Merck CEO who quit. Who is African-American.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
...represents the true face and condition of the USA...
And what leads you to that conclusion? I don't see any evidence for determining which of America's politicians are the "true face", or even for deciding that there is a single "true face" rather than many different faces of a pluralistic society.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Would there be much movement against their companies, or do you think, to the general populace, white supremacists rampaging through streets is not a high priority issue?
I think the connection between these companies and the racists is too indirect for many people to be that bothered.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
PG--
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) (or attempting, anyway.)
FWIW: I don't see that Ruth's done anything wrong, or even that she's done anything particularly harsh.
When you say "America is aspirational", I take it you mean that it's an ideal, that people want to believe in it, etc.? I get that, and I've tried to address that during past discussions of this sort of thing. But non-Americans tend to either deny or ignore it. If anything, they focus on the practical problems of maybe having the American colossus tumble over on them. And, usually, they put that ahead of the lived experience of those who actually *live* here. To the point of telling us that their ideas of the US are absolutely, solidly right, and *we* don't know what we're talking about. Even talking *only* about effects on non-Americans. After one long bout of that, I mentioned that we were being ignored, and someone said, "oh, we thought you knew we care". A couple of people apologized.
Some non-Americans have also denied, all along, that there's anything seriously wrong with T, that there were meaningful problems with the election, etc.--to the point of publicly telling me that I could call them to Hell, if they turned out to be wrong.
Plus some non-Americans, on the "Charlottesville" Hell thread, are fighting about The One True Way to be virtuous responders, in person, to a situation like Charlottesville.
I know it can be hard to have dreams, mythologies, and beliefs threatened. Been there. I'm sorry for you and everyone going through that. Many Americans are going through disillusionment, too--but we're also living within the *reality* of this horror. There isn't really anywhere else we can go; and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot we can do that will actually *work*, and not make things worse.
Plus there's supposed to be another such rally here, in SF, in about 10 days. And IIRC Richard Spencer is supposed to speak at Berkeley, and there's a huge fuss about whether that will even happen.
Most American posters don't like any of what's going on in Charlottesville, or DC, or Trump's messed-up mind. We're scared silly, angry, trying to figure out what to do, seeking comfort, self-medicating, trying to block out the whole thing.
We're stumbling through this. As a thought experiment: think of a time in history when chaos and political machinations took a country down a nasty path. Now, plug the American mess into that situation. Think what it would be like for the people involved. Then think about what it's like for Shipmates--people you know--who are involved.
Please be patient, and compassionate.
Thx.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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