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Source: (consider it) Thread: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread
Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Thanks for that link.

Good for them, and well said. Now, will they put their money where their mouth is, as it were, and resign from being amongst Supreme Leader's advisors?

OTOH, they may feel it's better to stay, and to try to influence The New Messiah from within...

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Bishops Finger
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Drat. Cross-posted with Miss Amanda, who has a valid (if somewhat cynical) point! Yes, there may indeed be a credibility issue here, if flocks of sheeple suddenly realise they're being conned.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Thanks for that link.

Good for them, and well said. Now, will they put their money where their mouth is, as it were, and resign from being amongst Supreme Leader's advisors?

OTOH, they may feel it's better to stay, and to try to influence The New Messiah from within...

IJ

Frank Schaeffer, who was one of us and was before that one of them (a Con-Evo Prot), in his con-evo days said something that still rings true to an unfortunate extent: "Like soup in a bad restaurant, Christian brains are best left unstirred."

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Drat. Cross-posted with Miss Amanda, who has a valid (if somewhat cynical) point! Yes, there may indeed be a credibility issue here, if flocks of sheeple suddenly realise they're being conned.

That presumes an intellectual ability they can't be shown to possess, given that they are the flocks of people in 45's religious advisory board.

[ 16. August 2017, 21:25: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Bishops Finger
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Well, point taken. Supposing they (or at least the majority) were to disassociate themselves from His Most Orange Majesty, would that make a difference (i.e. hammer another nail or two into his presidency)?

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Dunno the answer to taht, Bishops Finger, but I did find this: Trump's faith advisers condemn white supremacists (CNN).

From that article,
quote:
"The right remains too passive and the left remains too political when it comes to ethnic divisions in this country.
Is it perhaps possible that "the left" is political about "ethnic divisions in this country" precisely because "the right" isn't doing anything?

When one side is actively courting the support of racists with a series of nudges, winks, and dog whistles, it's a little rich to blame the other side for "being political" when they call that crap out.

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Brenda Clough
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Um, thanks. I think. What an indictment that the CEOs have bailed before any pastors have.

Any church that these moral midgets are in, nobody will want to be a part of. If only the entirety of Christianity in this country is not taken down with them.
Over in the POST the dean of the Washington commentators calls for the GOP to step up. Unlike the pastors, who merely have to face their God, the politicians have to be accountable to angry voters in the shorter term.

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romanlion
editorial comment
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
There is very clear video. Before the shitbag in the Charger was able to shift into reverse, the rear window of the car was smashed with a baseball bat. They came for exactly what they got, and were hoping for such.

Wait.. what?

The guy runs into a load of people at high speed, someone breaks a window and he reverses away.

How is that showing that "they came for exactly what they got, and were hoping for such"?

Who is the "they" in this sentence?

And how is breaking a window after someone in a car murdered a pedestrian remotely the same as Nazis coming to a march with machine guns?

Gets a little more complicated now that there is video showing the profa hitting his car with sticks or bats or whatever they brought prior to him accelerating into the crowd, dontcha think?

[ 17. August 2017, 01:04: Message edited by: romanlion ]

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Og, King of Bashan

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Yeah. Because speeding into a crowd and killing someone who isn't hitting your car is totally a proportional response in that situation.

[ 17. August 2017, 03:30: Message edited by: Og, King of Bashan ]

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Gets a little more complicated now that there is video showing the profa hitting his car with sticks or bats or whatever they brought prior to him accelerating into the crowd, dontcha think?

There is a break in the windscreen, but I think that's due to it accelerating into the car in front. There was a person on top of the car, they might have broken it.

It happened so fast and he came from so far away that it is pretty unlikely that the crowd was hitting his car before it ran into the crowd and other cars.

I've seen that footage from several different angles and I can't see anyone attacking the car except for the few quick minded people who try to stop it accelerating into the crowd.

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arse

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Barnabas62
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Leave it for the trial?

Back on Trump's various "Oops's", I'm beginning to think the Tuesday press conference may be the biggest of them all. He's clearly a man out of control.

I doubt whether it will have much impact on his 30-35% core support, for whom he can do no wrong even when he does wrong. But so far as GOP House Reps and Senators are concerned, let's see how much notice they take of the White House talking points.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Eirenist
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This may be a tangent, but in fairness to Robert E. Lee I recollect the late great Alistair Cooke saying that Lee agonised long over whether to serve the Confederacy or the Federal Government and decided that he should stay loyal to his home state, Virginia. He was, according to Cooke, an honourable man according to his lights - perhaps he could be allowed one statue? He didn't, after all, ask to become a hero to the neo-Nazis.

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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'

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Ian Climacus

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Re Trump's madness...

My former manager and I were discussing"Is this the end?" today. Surely Pence could not be worse?

What do you say? Would Pence be more beholden to the Party? It is clear he has his own agenda in a number of issues, but would he provide some stability? Would Pence be an improvement?

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Martin60
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Anyone else notice that Kim Wrong-Un blinked?

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Leave it for the trial?

No, sorry, someone says something that is clearly not backed up by the video then I'm going to refute it.

I'm not saying anything about an individual's guilt - I was clearly talking about what can be seen of the car in the videos ploughing into the crowds.

At a trial the accused will hopefully have proper representation and the prosecution will have to prove beyond doubt that he was in the car and that he did the thing he is charged with.

But the facts of what happened when a car ploughed into the crowd are not open to debate when we have videos showing it from many different angles.

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arse

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Barnabas62
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I cross-posted, mr cheesy. Was fiddling about with various responses.

Like you, I've had a look at the videos. I didn't think they supported romanlion's view either. But I'd rather wait for a forensic view.

[ 17. August 2017, 08:59: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Anyone else notice that Kim Wrong-Un blinked?

Yes.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Anyone else notice that Kim Wrong-Un blinked?

Sure did. The theory of the mad president cuts both ways.

I wonder what Mattis might do in the Situation Room if the US President gives a mad order? Not a question I ever expected to ask or even think about. But Trump clearly ignored another general yesterday (Chief of Staff Kelly) by ignoring a carefully prepared brief statement and launching on his tirade. I don't think he can be controlled.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I cross-posted, mr cheesy. Was fiddling about with various responses.

Like you, I've had a look at the videos. I didn't think they supported romanlion's view either. But I'd rather wait for a forensic view.

Bully for you. I'd rather counter stupidity that gives credibility to neo-Nazis.

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arse

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'd rather counter stupidity that gives credibility to neo-Nazis.

Before the facts are in?

How is this different to the tactics of fake news?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Bishops Finger
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Perhaps The End is not far off:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40952797

Those of us on this side of the pond can only stand bemused at the sight of this train-wreck of a presidency, with sympathy for those who never wanted it in the first place.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Before the facts are in?

How is this different to the tactics of fake news?

How is it fake news? The window of the car was either broken before it ran over people or it wasn't.

It is fairly clear from the videos that it wasn't. Nothing fake needed.

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arse

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I wonder what Mattis might do in the Situation Room if the US President gives a mad order?

Discussion elsewhere seems to indicate that there's actually some wiggle room.

I've frequently been reminded lately of the line from Cuban missile crisis film Thirteen Days:
quote:
"If the sun comes up tomorrow,it is only because of men of good will. And that's all there is between us and the devil."


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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Eutychus
From the edge
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The window of the car was either broken before it ran over people or it wasn't.

It is fairly clear from the videos that it wasn't

And the devil is in the "fairly".

Without having investigated the detail, I'm reasonably convinced the attacker intended to kill and that it was not anything like a proportionate response to what went before. But if people start not bothering with forensic details that don't wholly fit their narrative of events, I think it ultimately damages their credibility.

And I think fake news is the ultimate extension of that line of thinking.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Those of us on this side of the pond can only stand bemused at the sight of this train-wreck of a presidency.

He's due in Phoenix next week. I wish I could escape to somewhere else, but unfortunately I have commitments. The good news is that the bring me nowhere near his rally venue.

The police have actually asked the public not to bring guns to the rally.

[ 17. August 2017, 11:53: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Barnabas62
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mr cheesy

No need to rush to judgment, particularly when there is a judicial process under way. Nothing wrong with an opinion of course.

But assertion and rushing to judgment are exemplified in romanlion's post which started this tangent. I just don't want to follow suit.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Bishops Finger
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Quite so. Perhaps it's best to simply scroll past romanlion's posts...

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Barnabas62
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Back to the main drag.

BBC article.

Embedded in the article is a video clip entitled "'Amoral' President leaves the world stunned". I hope folks outside the UK can see it. The measured critical comments from William Cohen, a Republican who served as SecDef for President Clinton, and Ron Christie, who worked as a Special Assistant to George W Bush, are well worth listening to. I hope they represent a growing opinion within the GOP about this President. Cohen's observation, that the "real Trump" is the one you see off-script, not speaking from a teleprompter or reading a prepared statement, is particularly on point.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Bishops Finger
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Yes, that's the BBC article I linked to above.

It all makes one wonder just how long Nyarlathotep* (aka The Crawling Chaos) can go on for, before something - or somebody - breaks the Evil Spell under which poor America seems to be laid...

IJ

*for those not familiar with the works of the great American author, H. P. Lovecraft:

http://megamitensei.wikia.com/wiki/Nyarlathotep

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Barnabas62
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Sorry, Bishop's Finger, missed that. It is a very good link.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Bishops Finger
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Not at all, dear boy (we Uklanders are Very Polite).

[Biased]

It's a job to keep up with all the various news reports, but the BBC does seem to be keeping a close eye on USAnia.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Perhaps The End is not far off:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40952797

Those of us on this side of the pond can only stand bemused at the sight of this train-wreck of a presidency, with sympathy for those who never wanted it in the first place.

IJ

The train wreck has over 3 years to run. No problem. 7 even.

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Love wins

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Anyone else notice that Kim Wrong-Un blinked?

Yes.
Some within the community of North Korea watchers have speculated that Kim's statement contained a (subtextual) offer to negotiate.

quote:
I contend that the North Korean statement issued in response to Donald Trump’s “fire and fury” threat contains an invitation to negotiations. As is often the case, that invitation is not stated as such. Diplomacy guards such invitations so that nobody loses face when they don’t work. Neither Trump nor his people understand this, and they ignore the State Department and are doing their best to gut it. This is the sort of thing that the State Department specializes in.
The analysis is plausible, though not definitive due to the limitations of diplomatic bafflegab. There was a follow up post after North Korea's follow up statement.

In other news, Trump advisor Steve Bannon decided to call up Robert Kuttner at the American Prospect and give an impromptu interview. In it he makes a lot of claims about personnel changes he's going to make and policies he's going to enact, sounding as if he believes he's the president.

Bannon later claimed he didn't think he was giving an interview, he just wanted to call up a reporter for a somewhat leftish American news publication and discuss his newsworthy views. [Roll Eyes] Given that Bannon's background is running news-like organization Breitbart he should have understood that unless you get an agreement in advance from the reporter you're talking to that your discussion is off the record, on background, or not for attribution anything you say is fair game for later reporting.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
He's due in Phoenix next week. I wish I could escape to somewhere else, but unfortunately I have commitments. The good news is that the bring me nowhere near his rally venue.

The police have actually asked the public not to bring guns to the rally.

No guns? But this is Arizona!
[Eek!]

I'm happy to say that I'll be out of the country next week when he comes to town.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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The governor has asked him not to come, citing safety concerns.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Beautiful war statues?

Reminds me of the Franco-British wedding I attended where the father of the French bride expressed his confusion over the fact that all the landmarks in his son-in-law's country were named after significant defeats: Trafalgar, Waterloo, etc...

[ 17. August 2017, 15:43: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The governor has asked him not to come, citing safety concerns.

I know the Mayor of Phoenix has asked him to cancel or delay his visit. I hadn't heard that the Governor had.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Ohher
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# 18607

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I wonder how close the US is to becoming, or at least perceived abroad as becoming, a failed state on 44.1's watch.

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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Brenda Clough
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I may have confused them, Pidgwidgeon -- I couldn't find the link. However, I doubt if Li'l Donny will listen to him. Perhaps, however, the Secret Service will weigh in.

As to the fracture of the US, you are not alone in worrying about this.

I realize that I'm the cockeyed optimist of the song. It is terrible now, I agree. But it has been worse, and it will be better. As it says in another song, the country's pretty strong.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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What concerns many Arizonans is that Trump will pardon former Sheriff Joe Arpaio while he's here.

[Mad]

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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If he were to do so, that would be an outrage I could very firmly get behind [Mad]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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Today in the POST's opinion page the headlines are:
-There is a shriveled emptiness where Trump’s soul once resided
-Trump is Sarah Palin but better at it
-Russia’s election meddling backfired — big-time
-Beware: Trump may use the alt-right to turn himself into the center

It has not even taken a year, and journalism is flourishing, the newspapers healthier than ever. This is possibly the only good feature of our situation, but it is a real benefit.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Egeria
Shipmate
# 4517

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quote:
*for those not familiar with the works of the great American author, H. P. Lovecraft
You meant that "great" sarcastically, I hope?

Lovecraft was one of the most bigoted slimeballs that ever crawled across a protesting Earth. The "man" hated everybody who wasn't an old New England Yankee--and he had his doubts about them. Sometime when you're feeling masochistic, check out his descriptions of anyone not in that category. About the kindest adjective he'll use--for French Louisianans, I believe, is "simple."

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"Sound bodies lined / with a sound mind / do here pursue with might / grace, honor, praise, delight."--Rabelais

Posts: 314 | From: Berkeley, CA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
In other news, Trump advisor Steve Bannon decided to call up Robert Kuttner at the American Prospect and give an impromptu interview. In it he makes a lot of claims about personnel changes he's going to make and policies he's going to enact, sounding as if he believes he's the president.

I found his comments on North Korea (no way we hit them first as long as they can hit Seoul with conventional weapons and kill 10 million people 10 minutes after we hit) to be surprisingly sane for someone in this administration.

Naturally, the hawks are demanding his resignation. As we've discussed before, nuclear deterrence only works if the enemy believes you might actually be crazy enough to order a strike.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

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The weirdest part of that whole story is the journalist Bannon contacted. If he wanted a sympathetic hearing, why didn't he contact Breitbart, Fox etc?

Maybe he's taken too many drugs. This would explain many things.

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arse

Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The weirdest part of that whole story is the journalist Bannon contacted. If he wanted a sympathetic hearing, why didn't he contact Breitbart, Fox etc?

Maybe he's taken too many drugs. This would explain many things.

I thought exactly this. He looks extremely unwell. I suspect Trump is on something too.

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110

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I note that Back Obama's tweets quoting Mandela from "Long Walk to Freedom" have become the most popular in tweet history. Here is the content.

quote:
No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite.


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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
MaryLouise
Shipmate
# 18697

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The weirdest part of that whole story is the journalist Bannon contacted. If he wanted a sympathetic hearing, why didn't he contact Breitbart, Fox etc?

Maybe he's taken too many drugs. This would explain many things.

I thought exactly this. He looks extremely unwell. I suspect Trump is on something too.
I once had a recorded telephonic conversation with a minor celebrity who had a well-known cocaine habit. He was only mildly excitable, made more sense than usual, and at the end of the interview I found out he thought he was talking to his pastor, not a journalist.

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“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”

-- Ivy Compton-Burnett

Posts: 646 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Nov 2016  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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@Egeria - yes, I did indeed mention Lovecraft ironically. The man was certainly a racist of the first order, and may well have approved of Charlottesville's Nazis. It's also ironic that he married a Jew, though the marriage was hardly successful or long-lasting...

I do enjoy his Cthulhu Mythos stories, I confess.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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Assassinate Trump tweet

Can understand the frustration. But I can only see Trump and co bemoaning mean, nasty and dangerous "libruls".

[ 18. August 2017, 10:11: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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Oh dear, that would explain the Bannon interview entirely. He thought he was talking to someone else. Damn that speed dial!

Meanwhile, our older cousins are taking the bit between their teeth. This is one of several Jewish commentators I've run across. (a free click) I had not known there was an entire Jewish Republican group; they must be pretty uncomfortable today.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged



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