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Source: (consider it) Thread: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
ABC News: Trump Deals with the Democrats

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh! I'm more excited than Tom Gleeson on Hard Quiz, who walks onto the set every time like he can't believe they let him on TV again!

What a boost for the 2018 campaign!

It was fun, but by itself it won't matter at all in the 2018 campaign. What will matter is whether the Democrats can exact a cost in return for their votes when the debt ceiling comes up again in December. They need to do things like this again and again and again for it all to matter next year.

Also, think a bit more about whether you want to see the big orange asshole being able to claim that he got stuff done, even if it's stuff the Democrats want to get done.

But if you want to simply enjoy the feeling a bit longer -- and I certainly did enjoy it myself! -- listen to the Pod Save America episode from September 7. The former Obama staffers on that show had a field day with how stupid a move this was on Trump's part.

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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The former Obama staffers on that show had a field day with how stupid a move this was on Trump's part.

Was it a stupid move from Trump's perspective? Sure, from the perspective of advancing the Republican legislative agenda it's a fail, but unlike most Republican politicians what Trump mostly seems to care about is getting 'wins' and positive media attention. He seems to be getting both out of this move.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Was it a stupid move from Trump's perspective?

One supposes Trump doesn't want Republicans to start wondering whether it would be easier to advance their legislative agenda under President Pence.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Was it a stupid move from Trump's perspective?

One supposes Trump doesn't want Republicans to start wondering whether it would be easier to advance their legislative agenda under President Pence.
Why would they wonder that? Of all the factors involved in recent Republican legislative failures, Trump himself seems to be the least significant. I don't any reason to believe that Ryan or McConnell would suddenly become more competent at moving legislation through their respective chambers simply by the prospect of having the signature on the final bill say "Pence" instead of "Trump".

There are a lot of things Trump can be legitimately blamed for, but legislative dysfunction is not one of them.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Was it a stupid move from Trump's perspective?

One supposes Trump doesn't want Republicans to start wondering whether it would be easier to advance their legislative agenda under President Pence.
Why would they wonder that? Of all the factors involved in recent Republican legislative failures, Trump himself seems to be the least significant.
When a group is looking for a scapegoat to explain its failures finding a candidate with significant causal responsibility for the failures is something of an optional extra. The Republican leadership may or may not be that sort of group. I wouldn't know for certain.

In any case, as an outsider I have the impression that a President with a good working relationship with the legislature and the ability and willingness to bang heads together can have an effect in helping get things done? At least, I got the impression that Obama wasn't just sitting in the White House firing off passive-aggressive tweets while the healthcare legislation passed, even if he didn't have any formal part in the process.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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IMHO Trump's only guiding principle is "stir crap up." I will say this for him, he imagines creative ways to stir that would never have entered my head. And I think myself creative!

[ 08. September 2017, 18:53: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
In any case, as an outsider I have the impression that a President with a good working relationship with the legislature and the ability and willingness to bang heads together can have an effect in helping get things done? At least, I got the impression that Obama wasn't just sitting in the White House firing off passive-aggressive tweets while the healthcare legislation passed, even if he didn't have any formal part in the process.

To a certain extent, but the reputation of presidents for being able "to bang heads together" and move votes in the legislature is over-rated. Senators and Congressmen/women know they don't depend on the president for their jobs.

Using the Affordable Care Act as an example, Obama actually took a somewhat 'hands off' approach to the legislation that would eventually be colloquially known by his name. In part this was a reaction to the failure of the Clinton health reform, where the White House took the lead and the bill failed. But yes, despite the fact that Pelosi and Reid took the lead on passing the bill Obama was far more involved in passing the Affordable Care Act than Trump has been in trying to repeal that act. Obama hosted summits with Republican legislators, toured the country raising public support for the proposed legislation, proposed possible fixes for Republican objections to the bill, and at the end of the process the result was . . . zero Republican votes in favor of the ACA in either house of Congress.

Given that a dynamic and engaged executive like Obama wasn't able to move legislative votes for his key priority, I don't think legislators are going to be any more willing to shift their votes for a pinched-looking mother-wived God-botherer like Pence than they are for the Twitterer in Darkness.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Halfway through home duties, had a thought that possibly belongs here, but may warrant a new thread. Who was the last President to be respected by just about everyone in American political life?

FDR? A proper war-President, but a damned class traitor?
Truman?
Kennedy? The dirty Mick? Was he there long enough to overcome Protestant prejudice?
Tricky Dicky? Surely not, but what about before the shit hit the fan?
Reagan? He was despised overseas, but did he command respect at home, perhaps after the USSR collapsed?

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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Ohher
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# 18607

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Who was the last President to be respected by just about everyone in American political life?

George Washington.

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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Pangolin Guerre
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# 18686

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I think that this is material for a separate thread, but, to respond, every example you mention had a substantial opposition. Nixon even well before Watergate ('72 landslide not withstanding) was unpopular with a lot of people. Probably FDR comes closest, but the Depression and WW II are special cases. With Trump, we're in a whole new territory of visceral loathing.
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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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My mother's parents did not like FDR. They thought he abused his power, and they thought Hoover was scapegoated for things that weren't his fault.
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Pangolin Guerre
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# 18686

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I meant to add this earlier. It's an interview with John le Carre from CBC's Writers and Company. I heard it on the radio yesterday afternoon, but the link is to the extended interview, so I can't give you the precise time when le Carre utters one of the pithiest assessments of Trump and his White House. It would have been at about the 45 minute mark in the radio version. Oh, hell, listen to the whole thing. It's worth it.

[ 11. September 2017, 04:14: Message edited by: Pangolin Guerre ]

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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I doubt there's been any president that most Americans have liked.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Jane R
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# 331

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Ohher, are you *sure* about Washington? What about CherryTreeGate?
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
What about CherryTreeGate?

Apocryphal.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Jane R
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# 331

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Precisely my point - if the famous story about George Washington's honesty at the age of six is a lie, *how can we trust anything else we've been told about him*?! [Two face]
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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Well, it's no more of a lie than the stories Jesus told to illustrate points he was trying to make. Apocryphal or not, the story of George Washington and the Cherry Tree endears us to the boy who would never tell a lie even when the truth was likely to cause him grief. But we digress.

As President, though, Washington was not as universally beloved as we might prefer to remember.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Crœsos
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# 238

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So apparently Attorney-General Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III wants to require all National Security Council staff to submit to a polygraph test to figure out who has been leaking to the press. A couple points.

First, this kind of wide-sweeping internal loyalty check seems pretty reminiscent of paranoid police states.

Second, Axios does not say how it obtained this information, not even a nod to "anonymous sources", though the fact that the report exists means that Sessions' (allegedly planned) attempt to crack down on leakers has been leaked.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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As valid would be to cast horoscopes. There is no validity to polygraphs. None.

Is it just me or does this Sessions fellow look like Alfred E. Neuman of Mad Magazine fame.

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Pangolin Guerre
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# 18686

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If I had my Pluto in Scorpio, I'd be shaking in my boots!
(Which, of course, I don't I swear! Test me! Er... cast my chart!)

[ 11. September 2017, 19:13: Message edited by: Pangolin Guerre ]

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
As valid would be to cast horoscopes. There is no validity to polygraphs. None.

I disagree. Casting a horoscope doesn't have the same invasive intrusiveness as hooking up various meters and probes to a person's body. A polygraph is a much more valid method of intimidation.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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They are both stress interviews where the subtle nonverbals are manipulated by the interviewee. I agree that physiological measures are more intrusive. There is also neurofeedback monitoring which I am sure they'd use.

The point though that I was making is that astrology and polygraph are about equivalent scientifically, i.e., no basis. The only skill involved in skilful interviewing, but terribly biased, fraught with error, supposition and nonsense.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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'...terribly biased, fraught with error, supposition and nonsense.'

A good description of the Lord of Shadows' administration (with apologies to all those good, decent, hardworking folk who toil and travail daily within it, on account of having health insurance to pay for).

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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First sentence should read "interviewer" not "interviewee".

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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HCH
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# 14313

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It has occurred to me that the obvious way to beat a polygraph is to practice: find someone with a polygraph to help and teach yourself by biofeedback to be as nervous as possible, thus always registering as a liar. If they can't get a baseline, they're out of business. (I have not tested this.)
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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Polygraph Testing Too Flawed for Security Screening, a pretty good summary.

"The federal government should not rely on polygraph examinations for screening prospective or current employees to identify spies or other national-security risks because the test results are too inaccurate when used this way, says a new report from the National Academies' National Research Council."

It's crap. It may also be illegal, though I don't know about the USA law on this. Notwithstanding that illegality hasn't stopped USA from torture, this isn't directly assaultive physically to a human being, and the current dude instils less confidence than the torture president.

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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I bet sessions is trying to make himself look tough for fart face.

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Just watched most of a PBS update on the Russia probe. Before the "bored now" reaction kicked in, I noted that the targets were said to be Manafort, Donald Trump Jr and one other whose name escapes me, or maybe just those two. The focus in this part of the story was on the substantive collusion issue, not the cover-up.

Anyway what surprised me was that Kushner's name was not mentioned. I didn't realise that he was no longer in the frame and it surprised me, given his connections to convicted criminals. Does anyone know why Kushner might be getting away with it?

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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The easiest and very well-known way to fudge the results is with your bladder. The polygraph detects slight muscle tension; you allegedly get tender when you lie. You can always and invisibly tense and relax your pee reflex.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
You can always and invisibly tense and relax your pee reflex.

The makers of Depends must love you, my dear. [Ultra confused]

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Women call this Kegel exercises; there must be some male quivalent.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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You know I think I might buy Hilary's book. When reading a little summary about her comments on her long-serving assistant, her fundamental decency comes through. She reminds me of my wife in this respect, loyal and respectful of her colleagues.

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

Posts: 917 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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More BS about trumpy's ahem-Christian support re immigration this evening. These people are heathens, ain't Christian:

Ring them bells ye heathen from the cities that dream
Ring them bells from your sanctuaries cross the valleys and streams
For they're deep and wide, and world's on its side
Times running backwards and so is the bride.

(Bob Dylan knew that heathens took over the sanctuaries and have been ringing the bells, putting the world into megastorm sell your planet, and bride-church is running away at freighttrain speed, no slow train)

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
More BS about trumpy's ahem-Christian support re immigration this evening. These people are heathens, ain't Christian

I don't know about that. They seem perfectly consistent with American Christianity as it's been practiced for quite some time now. Fred Clark discusses this in the not-entirely-unrelated matter of racially gerrymandered Congressional districts:

quote:

The Supreme Court, in a 5-4 partisan decision, said, you know, whatever — racial gerrymandering to disenfranchise black and Hispanic voters is totally cool with them. Hey, after all, that’s how those five justices got appointed and approved in the first place, right?

This is just the latest in the ongoing, unbroken string of weird coincidence. As in the disgraceful Shelby County ruling gutting the Voting Rights Act, and in Citizens United, and in every other such decision, it always just happens to turn out that it’s the “pro-life” justices who decide against voting rights for nonwhite citizens and who seek to strike down any limits on corporate power.

It’s just the darnedest thing. After all, these justices were all appointed thanks to a generation of politicized white evangelicals who have insisted that it is their sacred Christian duty to ensure the judiciary is stacked with anti-abortion judges. Yet every one of the judges appointed and supported by this anti-abortion effort has been — unwaveringly — opposed to full and equal voting rights for nonwhite American citizens while also fighting to restore the no-holds-barred unregulated corporatism of the Lochner-era court of the Gilded Age.

Just a weird coincidence, I guess. Just one of those things. I mean — it’s not like the white evangelical political movement that replaced what had formerly been an evangelical religious movement is deliberately trying to deny full equality to nonwhite Americans, right? And just because every result of the religious right has been a boon to corporate power doesn’t mean that this was its agenda all along. Shelby County and Citizens United were just unfortunate, unintended side effects, right?

“We demand judges who will criminalize abortion!”

“How about judges who will demolish voting rights and overturn all limits on corporate power?”

“Yes, that.”

How long does that pattern have to continue before we’re allowed to talk about what it obviously, undeniably means?

In another not-entirely-unrelated story, the Trump Organization seems to be trying to stuff their boss's birtherism down the memory hole. I guess yesterday's dogwhistle is too outdated for today's discriminating audiences.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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I was just attending to chamber business when it occurred to me that if convention was strictly applied, we should refer to David Duke as Grand Wizard (ret.) David Duke.

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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In other news, The Dark Lord has annoyed, nay vexed, our Dear Prime Minister Mrs. Maybe, by speculating (on Twitter, of course [Roll Eyes] ) that those responsible for today's terrorist incident on a London Underground train were known already to our pleecemen.

Would somebody please tell The Dark Lord to bloody well shut up, and keep his Orange Nose out of our affairs? Pretty please?

[Mad]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110

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He cannot even get sympathy right.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
He cannot even get sympathy right.

Sympathy is about other people. Trump doesn't do other people.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Ohher
Shipmate
# 18607

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Applies to his budget as well: America first, Americans last.

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

Posts: 155 | From: New Hampshire, USA | Registered: Jun 2016  |  IP: Logged
Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686

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I thought that I had become inured to Trump, that I would just shrug, and carry on with my day, allowing the Quiet Voice in the back room of my mind to continue its prayers that we avoid the Apocalypse. Then...

This morning the radio tells me that Mexico offered assistance to the victims of Harvey - which I thought rather magnanimous, given Trump's habitual abuse of Mexico and Mexicans - but it took Trump a week to phone Pena Nieto to offer condolences for the victims of the earthquake. Apparently his tweets regarding Mexico following the earthquake focussed on the immuring of his delicate republic. Why? Poor phone connections. Erm... no. Photos of people in situ, on their cell phones. Fuck me. A simple act of protocol: "Enrique, how are thing? Could you use a hand?" It's not as though Trump couldn't afford the 30 minutes. What the fuck else is he doing? He displays the behaviour of a 14 year old hyper-entitled shit. He cannot be impeached too soon. Rant done.

[ 16. September 2017, 22:06: Message edited by: Pangolin Guerre ]

Posts: 611 | From: 30 arpents de neige | Registered: Nov 2016  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Suspect I heard the same radio. It made me wonder: is he channelling the stream of consciousness of 1/3 of his country? He thinks and acts like his base. And then says precisely what is in his mind. What I recall being talked to about when I was 10: that it isn't necessary to put voice (in his case twitter) to every single thing that courses through one's brain.

I also recall realising at 15 that because I'd learned this at 10, it wasn't me who was getting beaten up at school every day. trumpy evidently avoided necessary beatings, or got beaten too much. Either way, am I wrong to think he has anger problems. And that 1/3 of his country has anger problems.

[ 16. September 2017, 22:52: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

Posts: 10751 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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T is addressing the UN, either today or tomorrow. If he says the wrong thing there...
[Paranoid] [Help]

Russia and China reportedly won't be attending.

I wonder what would happen if everyone walked out on him? Or took their translation gear off, making a production of it?

[Votive]

[ 18. September 2017, 10:46: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17561 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
T is addressing the UN, either today or tomorrow. . . . I wonder what would happen if everyone walked out on him? Or took their translation gear off, making a production of it?

From your lips to God's ear. Much more obviously effective than sending hurricanes our way, don't you think so, God? [Ultra confused]

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Russia and China reportedly won't be attending.

"They get all the breaks," mutter both Matthew Rycroft (U.K.) and Christoph Heusgen (Germany).

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

Posts: 2595 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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He tweeted a meme of himself assaulting a woman with a golf ball. Normalizing misogyny. Normalizing racism's many sides. We have crossed over.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
He tweeted a meme of himself assaulting a woman with a golf ball. Normalizing misogyny.

Whilst I think the current POTUS is indeed a disgusting misogynist, I'm not sure this particular meme is misogynistic. Unless you argue that Hillary's stumble was only ever remarked upon because of her sex, it seems like a thing that could be done to a political opponent of any sex.
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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T loathes Hillary. These days, it's primarily because people made it clear to him that she really did win the popular vote. And his very broken "I have to win to be loved" mind/heart can't accept that at all. (His dad impressed that firmly on all the kids.)

IIRC, T reportedly supported H the first time she ran.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17561 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
He tweeted a meme of himself assaulting a woman with a golf ball. Normalizing misogyny.

Whilst I think the current POTUS is indeed a disgusting misogynist, I'm not sure this particular meme is misogynistic. Unless you argue that Hillary's stumble was only ever remarked upon because of her sex, it seems like a thing that could be done to a political opponent of any sex.
I find the memory of prior things he said won't leave me. Did I really link up the recent tweet with stuff like this unjustifiably?:
quote:
"If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks," Trump said. "Although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is. I don't know."
Link.

I felt it was a continuation of his violent wishes aimed at this particular woman, and it is continuous with his direct admission of sexual assault against women generally. The only nice thing about this guy is that no-one needs to invent any slurs or exaggerations about him, you can just quote him.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10751 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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Wha are people's thoughts on "the redemption of Spicer", e.g at the Emmy's? Is he being used by the left-leaning media? does he care? is it odd he is treated with such welcome now? Perhaps it ever was...I just found pictures of "stars" lining up with him odd.
Posts: 7337 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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Ian--

I've only seen a brief clip. (Didn't watch the Emmys.) It's funny and/or clever, in a sense. It's something that Stephen Colbert might pull on his "The Late Show". I'm not sure it was right for the Emmys. BTW, I saw something yesterday saying Spicer "crashed Colbert's monologue". I don't know whether the reporter believed that. Crashing wasn't even part of the premise--Stephen called out for Spicer.

What shocked me a bit was finding out today is that Spicer is a fellow at Harvard. Seriously? Seriously!

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17561 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged



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