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Source: (consider it) Thread: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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Bernie is too old. Hillary's window has closed. The real problem is that the Democrats have no one who seems to be emerging as a valid contender.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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What about Elizabeth Warren?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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There is always Kanye. And the Rock.

Even Kanye cannot be worse than Trump.

[ 18. May 2017, 22:49: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
and if they award the presidency to H, who won the popular vote.

I know it's yonks away, but what are the thoughts on Hillary 2020?
That's a nightmare scenario as far as I'm concerned. And I voted for her.
Yes, I think that's nightmare territory from this far-off perspective. Nancy Pelosi*, maybe? Bernie will be too old. But the lessons from 2016 are, inter alia

a) get off your arses, libruls
b) don't throw out the toys and pout, libruls, and
c) look to the creative edges sometimes, not the tried and blase
d) come up with creative meaningful fiscal responses to the pain of the underclasses**

* Though personally I think she should have followed the impeach Bush process, for misleading the world (with Blair) was a fairly serious breach of the vows he promised to uphold
** I have long argued that the narrative that I have seen for ever on the Ship and elsewhere about the "middle classes" misses the point. It's the underclasses that are suffering, broken, bitter, clutching at the straw of a Trump (and ironically a Sanders, Corbyn, Macron, whatever) to save them from the hell-hole of forgottenness ... it's the trailer trash who are hurting and who will (have) eventually lead the revolution

[Edit: that would be "bitter", not "butter" [Roll Eyes] ]

[ 18. May 2017, 22:58: Message edited by: Zappa ]

--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
What about Elizabeth Warren?

Definitely Warren. She has a similar appeal to Bernie.

But we also should (as noted several pages back) remember it is early days yet and still plenty of time for someone to emerge from the pack. Rep. Adam Schiff from my neck of the woods is beginning to pick up steam as a leader of the resistance (he's been on Rachel Maddow's show several times, which can't help but endear him to lefty hearts everywhere). There are others as well that could be groomed for the VP slot, especially if you've got a rock star like Warren at the head of the ticket.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Pangolin Guerre
Shipmate
# 18686

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Speaking of things Hilary, what the fuck is Lindsey Graham up to? Now that a special counsel has been appointed, he says that he hasn't seen any evidence of a crime yet, so he doesn't know what led to the appointment. (He was in favour of such an appointment, so why the cold feet?) And now he says that Hilary's emails should be revisited because he has reason to believe (refusing to say what that reason might be) that they will reveal some shenanigans between the Clinton campaign and the DOJ, although Comey put the emails to bed, after the damage was done. Surely, had there been improper communication between the Clinton team and the DOJ, that would have been revealed in the course of Comey's investigation.

Does no one in a position of power care for your republic? That's not rhetorical. I imagine that Clapper is a very sad man.

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Re Hillary--they'd never give it to her, there's no legal precedent for such a thing. They'll follow the chain of succession.

Re Pence--whatever he is, he is still likely to be more sane (and thus more controllable) than Trump. If you get a sane president you don't like, traditionally you sit on him (er, apply political pressure) until he figures out it's in his best interests to moderate his behavior. We can work with that. We cannot work with a man who IMHO is clearly deteriorating in terms of sanity.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19553 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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Yeah, but Pence is also sane enough to know how to get things done. How to maintain a decent, honorable public image-- perfect for the GOP right now which is nothing but an empty suit. I fear that Pres. Pence will be only slightly more moderate in his agenda, but far far savvier in how to get it done, and how to woo back the public.

At the same time I do think Pence is sane enough not to start a pre-emptorary nuclear war (other wars, yes, if profitable-- but not a nuclear one). And these days my bar is low enough that that'll do.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Re possible candidates:

--Nancy Pelosi is about 77.

--I think Elizabeth Warren is of best use in Congress. She's too combative to be president, and she'd have many more things to be combative about, every day. She'd get worn out! [Biased] She can do great good in Congress, or perhaps as head of Health and Human Services, or some such.

--I'd love to have Hillary take office. That whole thing is a really deep wound for me; and I've managed to bandage it up by rarely thinking about her, and talking about her even less.

But would she still want to do it? Or has she, for the sake of her sanity, managed to move on? Is she still up to doing it, given all the unexpected stress of the way things turned out?

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17002 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Yeah, but Pence is also sane enough to know how to get things done. How to maintain a decent, honorable public image-- perfect for the GOP right now which is nothing but an empty suit. I fear that Pres. Pence will be only slightly more moderate in his agenda, but far far savvier in how to get it done, and how to woo back the public.

At the same time I do think Pence is sane enough not to start a pre-emptorary nuclear war (other wars, yes, if profitable-- but not a nuclear one). And these days my bar is low enough that that'll do.

Your second paragraph is the main thing I care about. I don't want to risk a madman destroying us all just to avoid a guy who'll be gone in 4 years (and if he isn't and he's as bad as all that, we're to blame, esp. after what we should have learned from the Trump fiasco).

By the bye, I am (was?) a Republican. My party has deserted me...

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19553 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468

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LC--

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Re Hillary--they'd never give it to her, there's no legal precedent for such a thing. They'll follow the chain of succession.

I wonder what they'd do if it were the other way around: a Republican won the popular vote, but a Democrat won the electoral college; there was evidence of both a foreign adversary meddling in the election, and of ye olde "high crimes and misdemeanors"; the Democrat was clearly severely impaired, mentally; and they wanted to save both the country and their party? (And their own asses.)

(For the record: I think the US gov't was wrong, the many times it meddled in the elections of other countries.)

Right this very moment, I'm thinking of (future) First Lady Abigail Adams' counsel to her husband, to "remember the ladies" in setting up the new country, and that women were of a mind not to recognize system of laws that doesn't recognize them. Why any woman would ever trust the system again, particularly Congress and elections, I don't know!

[Mad]

Ah, I feel better now.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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IMHO we ought to cut off presidential candidates from running when they'd take office at age 70 or beyond. The risk of Alzheimer's etc. is too great, especially with how that disease seems to be on the increase in recent years (and not just because of the boomers).

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19553 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
LC--

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Re Hillary--they'd never give it to her, there's no legal precedent for such a thing. They'll follow the chain of succession.

I wonder what they'd do if it were the other way around: a Republican won the popular vote, but a Democrat won the electoral college; there was evidence of both a foreign adversary meddling in the election, and of ye olde "high crimes and misdemeanors"; the Democrat was clearly severely impaired, mentally; and they wanted to save both the country and their party? (And their own asses.)

You still couldn't do it. Not without throwing out the Constitution. They'd just have to suck it up. It's not a matter of political will, it's a matter of "#$%#$! this, there's the Constitution in our way again"--and people notice if you blow it off.

At best they could try for an amendment (ha!) which would take ages (like, years, probably) and do them no good in regards to the current crisis.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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jedijudy

Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333

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I understand that Robert Mueller has a lot of latitude to investigate questions of impropriety regarding Trump/Russian links. It makes me wonder if Mr. Mueller will subpoena Trump's tax returns to look for anything shady in those documents?

The shenanigans at the White House are such a circus; a very scary, horrifying circus with fun house mirrors everywhere.

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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.

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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

By the bye, I am (was?) a Republican. My party has deserted me...

Indeed. As a left-wing pro-life evangelical, I've got some awareness of what it's like when your tribe veers wildly off track. My sympathy.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re possible candidates:

--Nancy Pelosi is about 77.

Sorry, missed that detail ... must be the botox

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

Posts: 18511 | From: scarily close to 40° | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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She looks better for her age than the asshole-in-chief does at his.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Thank you, Cliffdweller. [Waterworks] [Waterworks] [Waterworks]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
She looks better for her age than the asshole-in-chief does at his.

That's not saying much -- I've seen corpses that look better than he does.

(But Nancy does look amazing for her age.)

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
# 6075

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
[...] I've seen corpses that look better than he does. [...]

... and that make more sense!

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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simontoad
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# 18096

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I saw a current affairs show last night that suggested a certain M. Zuckerburg was considering a run in 2020.

2020 is not that far away. If Trump gets impeached or resigns, Pence won't be able to do too much damage that can't be quickly reversed. Of course the Dems must get it together where it matters in 2018 and 2020.

Remember, from Australia's perspective America's health system continues to be a very bad joke under Obamacare. One thought I had the other day: Are all American hospitals private? Or, to ask in another way, Are there hospitals that are fully run and paid for by one or more Govt entities in America? If not, you guys are so screwed.

Neither Ford nor George WH Bush were tainted by the White House scandals during their terms as VP. I thing George had a weak bladder or something. If only Pence could be caught doing some covering up, that would be brilliant. He was, after all, liasing with Flynn.

Another thought: My impression is that in the 1970's nobody was blaming anyone but the Nixon White House, and the press were the heroes of the hour. This translated to big swings against the Republicans. Here, Republican voters have someone else to blame - the fake news press. Does that mean that there are likely to be smaller swings against the Republicans?

Sorry, all my electoral instincts are set to elections where people who don't care about politics are forced to vote or pay a fine. I find it really hard to imagine the reaction of people in a jurisdiction where voting is both optional and inconvenient.

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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simontoad
Shipmate
# 18096

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quote:
Remember, from Australia's perspective America's health system continues to be a very bad joke under Obamacare. One thought I had the other day: Are all American hospitals private? Or, to ask in another way, Are there hospitals that are fully run and paid for by one or more Govt entities in America? If not, you guys are so screwed.
Sorry. Shouldn't have put that last bit. I mean, I genuinely believe that America's reliance on the private sector is bad for its social cohesion, but it's not a new thing. I'm applying Australian standards and attitudes to the situation in America and that is wrong, and leads to mistakes. I am hopeful that Americans can work out how to get to a fair and just health system where everyone gets the health care they need regardless of their financial situation from the current situation. I can't see it happening, but that's because of my lack of knowledge, and, admittedly, my prejudice against private sector involvement in things like health care other than to fill in the gaps around a dominant public system.

--------------------
The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Remember, from Australia's perspective America's health system continues to be a very bad joke under Obamacare. One thought I had the other day: Are all American hospitals private? Or, to ask in another way, Are there hospitals that are fully run and paid for by one or more Govt entities in America? If not, you guys are so screwed.

Indeed.

You'll find all sorts of arrangements-- public, private, for profit, nonprofit, and lots of weird consortiums of the above. Very very messy-- which helps obscure costs and pricing which is part of the strategy. As detailed in Time's brilliant expose A Bitter Pill, even when a hospital is "nonprofit" all that means is there are no investors making $$ of the institution, but there are still all sorts of administrators pulling down multi- million salaries. In fact, according to the expose, in all but a very few cities in the US the highest paid person in town is the CEO of the local hospital. These same hospitals will engage in fancy fund-raisers that really are an exercise in PR-- the big money is, in fact, in providing essential, life-saving services as greatly inflated prices to involuntary consumers who have no choice but to fork over whatever they ask. Frequently including, pre-ACA and probably post ACHA, their homes (medical bankruptcy being the leading cause of foreclosure before 2014).

So, yeah, screwed we are.


quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Sorry. Shouldn't have put that last bit. I mean, I genuinely believe that America's reliance on the private sector is bad for its social cohesion, but it's not a new thing. I'm applying Australian standards and attitudes to the situation in America and that is wrong, and leads to mistakes. I am hopeful that Americans can work out how to get to a fair and just health system where everyone gets the health care they need regardless of their financial situation from the current situation. I can't see it happening, but that's because of my lack of knowledge, and, admittedly, my prejudice against private sector involvement in things like health care other than to fill in the gaps around a dominant public system.

Many, many of us Americans came to this conclusion long ago.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 10605 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

By the bye, I am (was?) a Republican. My party has deserted me...

Indeed. As a left-wing pro-life evangelical, I've got some awareness of what it's like when your tribe veers wildly off track. My sympathy.
I read Lamb Chopped's comments and thought almost exactly the same thing for much the same reasons, cliffdweller [Votive]

Meanwhile, back on topic, Zappa's article quote
quote:
Democracy has never truly been about outcomes. It's about process, deliberation, and civic restraint.
resonates with me, too. Democracy ought to be played as an infinite game, not a finite one.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
She looks better for her age than the asshole-in-chief does at his.

[Killing me]
Yeah, but too much tumeric in the fake tan oil and a dead squirrel on your head tends to do that.

--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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simontoad
Shipmate
# 18096

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quote:
Many, many of us Americans came to this conclusion long ago.

I have been crying for you guys, behind the Colbert-inspired laughter. [Votive]

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

Posts: 534 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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From a behind-a-paywall article:

quote:
Added to Trump’s troubles is a White House believed to be melting down in conflict and incompetence, an executive in which thousands of positions remain unfilled, and a President so bored with the job that his staff are inserting his name into documents, in order to keep him reading.
I take it the 1000s is hyperbole...or is it? And is it usual for a number of positions to go unfilled 100+ days in?
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
My hope is that T will get so upset about being picked on that he'll take his toys and go home--preferably, by the end of May. (The guy with the nuclear codes attache case should probably hide out in an undisclosed location, to remove temptation.)

[Smile]

Excuse my ignorance ... are you saying that Trump does not have the power to walk in and press the button? That the decision has to be 'approved' - I sincerely hope so.
It seems quite possible that Trump has some form of mental illness (Megalomania springs to mind) and is it not possible that in one of his huffs he rushes in without thinking? Or is it simply that the decision is made by others and he gets to do the deed - which hopefully offers some comfort for the world?

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

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quote:
...the big money is, in fact, in providing essential, life-saving services as greatly inflated prices to involuntary consumers who have no choice but to fork over whatever they ask. Frequently including, pre-ACA and probably post ACHA, their homes (medical bankruptcy being the leading cause of foreclosure before 2014).
[Mad] [Votive] Meanwhile, on this side of the pond, the government is busily chipping away at our highly efficient NHS (where most of the effort goes into detecting and treating health problems *before* they require expensive trips to A&E) to make it more like the American system.

[edited to change "the Tories" to "the government", in a spirit of fairness; the last Labour government was guilty of this too, though not to the same extent]

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Mark--

AIUI, the prez is always accompanied by someone carrying an attache' case that contains the nuclear codes. (Might even be hand-cuffed to it, but I'm not sure.)

I don't think the prez has to get any permission to send up nukes, though maybe it would be a good thing to check with others. I think the idea is that if someone else is threatening us with nukes, or has already sent them, an immediate retaliation might be the only appropriate response.

*Someone* else must have the codes, because what if something happens to the attache' case? At the very least, someone would need to be able to set new codes, in case someone stole the attache case and the original codes.

And, of course, this brings to mind the movies "Fail-Safe" and "War Games", both about what you do in that moment when it looks like you should launch the nukes and other severe weapons.

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17002 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673

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Thanks for that. Not sure how reassured I am!
Trump appears to me to be his own boss (to put it mildly), to take little notice of anyone else and to act on impulse. I can imagine a scenario where he wants to press the button before anyone else has the chance, someone who actually is only shouting with no real intention. In other words he could mis-read diplomacy WHAT? [Mad]

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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quote:
... it's the trailer trash who are hurting and who will (have) eventually lead the revolution
If there is hope, it lies in the proles.

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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Jane R
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# 331

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Golden Key:
quote:
And, of course, this brings to mind the movies "Fail-Safe" and "War Games", both about what you do in that moment when it looks like you should launch the nukes and other severe weapons.
Yes - thank God for this guy. I hope there are others like him in the US chain of command...
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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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Further up-thread, Mr. Cheesy linked to a recent Radiolab podcast that looked into the ability of a person down the line of the nuclear chain of command to say "no." Specifically, as the stress of Watergate began to really get to Nixon, there were reports that he was drinking too much. One of the officers at a missile base, who would have had to turn one of the two keys if Nixon ordered a strike, asked his superior how he would know that the order was coming from a sober, sane President.

The questioning offer got his ass canned for even asking. [Ultra confused]

If you can ignore the terrifying context, it becomes and interesting game theory question. On the one hand, if the enemy knows that anyone down the line can abort a strike, it becomes less likely that a strike will actually happen, and your nuclear deterrent starts to really look like a bluff. On the other hand, after 68 years and a lot of close calls but no strikes since retaliation has become a possibility, it's natural to ask if the entire thing is one giant bluff. As I said above, we will never know the answer unless it's no.

On that note, I hope everyone has a nice relaxing weekend...

[ 19. May 2017, 14:31: Message edited by: Og, King of Bashan ]

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Yes, I think that's nightmare territory from this far-off perspective. Nancy Pelosi*, maybe? Bernie will be too old. But the lessons from 2016 are, inter alia

a) get off your arses, libruls
b) don't throw out the toys and pout, libruls, and
c) look to the creative edges sometimes, not the tried and blase
d) come up with creative meaningful fiscal responses to the pain of the underclasses**

* Though personally I think she should have followed the impeach Bush process, for misleading the world (with Blair) was a fairly serious breach of the vows he promised to uphold
** I have long argued that the narrative that I have seen for ever on the Ship and elsewhere about the "middle classes" misses the point. It's the underclasses that are suffering, broken, bitter, clutching at the straw of a Trump (and ironically a Sanders, Corbyn, Macron, whatever) to save them from the hell-hole of forgottenness ... it's the trailer trash who are hurting and who will (have) eventually lead the revolution

No matter how many times this is debunked, the zombie lie keeps shambling forward. By any reasonable definition of the term, "the underclass" voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016. Voters earning less than $30,000/year split 53%/40% Clinton/Trump. The next highest grouping, $30,000/year to $50,000/year, split 53%/40% Clinton/Trump. Of course, when this kind of talking point rises from the grave yet again what's being referred to as "the underclass" actually means "the white underclass". (In American politics, the "white" is silent.) So yes, if you see "the underclass" in America as an exclusively white demographic, Donald Trump did surprisingly well with "the underclass" compared to Mitt Romney's 2012 performance, though he lost ground (again, relative to Romney) among the [white] middle class. The exact reason why the white underclass is the only demographic that's worthy of political attention is usually left unsaid.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Further up-thread, Mr. Cheesy linked to a recent Radiolab podcast that looked into the ability of a person down the line of the nuclear chain of command to say "no." Specifically, as the stress of Watergate began to really get to Nixon, there were reports that he was drinking too much. One of the officers at a missile base, who would have had to turn one of the two keys if Nixon ordered a strike, asked his superior how he would know that the order was coming from a sober, sane President.

The questioning offer got his ass canned for even asking. [Ultra confused]

From a bit further up the chain of command Defense Secretary James Schlesinger issued a directive to the military not to follow any "unusual orders" originating in the White House unless those orders were relayed by him personally. Schlesinger was (reputedly) more worried about Nixon staging a military coup than launching a bunch of nukes, but the general effect is the same.

[ 19. May 2017, 14:48: Message edited by: Crœsos ]

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

By the bye, I am (was?) a Republican. My party has deserted me...

Indeed. As a left-wing pro-life evangelical, I've got some awareness of what it's like when your tribe veers wildly off track. My sympathy.
This is a problem in a two party system, it is very easy for neither to represent a country very well. Given the polarisation of both American parties, this appears to be more and more true.
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
The exact reason why the white underclass is the only demographic that's worthy of political attention is usually left unsaid.

As the white goes silent in white people, the people in black people goes ignored.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Remember, from Australia's perspective America's health system continues to be a very bad joke under Obamacare. One thought I had the other day: Are all American hospitals private? Or, to ask in another way, Are there hospitals that are fully run and paid for by one or more Govt entities in America? If not, you guys are so screwed.

Veteran's Administration hospitals are run and paid for by the U.S. government but, as the name implies, they are only for the use of military veterans.

quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Neither Ford nor George HW Bush were tainted by the White House scandals during their terms as VP. I thing George had a weak bladder or something.

It's amazing how completely Iran-Contra has fallen down the memory hole, including Bush Senior's suspicious pardon of 6 high-level conspirators on his way out the White House door.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
By the bye, I am (was?) a Republican. My party has deserted me...

Indeed. As a left-wing pro-life evangelical, I've got some awareness of what it's like when your tribe veers wildly off track. My sympathy.
This is a problem in a two party system, it is very easy for neither to represent a country very well. Given the polarisation of both American parties, this appears to be more and more true.
The two party system is a logical outgrowth of the U.S. winner-take-all majoritarian constitutional system. Traditionally the political parties try to appeal to enough factions to get a working majority, but not so many factions that they're stymied by trying to fulfill contradictory demands. In a lot of ways American major political parties are like coalition governments in a parliamentary system, except that the coalitions are formed before the election rather than after.

While the American constitutional system is geared towards the existence of exactly and only two major political parties they don't necessarily have to be the same configuration of interest groups we see today. Some groups have interests so contradictory they can't comfortably exist in the same party (e.g. religious conservatives and gay rights advocates). In other cases the current alignment is largely due to historical contingency (e.g. there's no particular reason for religious conservatives to ally themselves politically with big business instead of labor interests).

What's interesting is that what we're seeing now is the transformation of one of the major American political parties (the Republicans) into something that more closely resembles the kind of ideologically coherent party you see more often in parliamentary systems. Despite claims about "the polarisation of both American parties" the Democrats still seem to be more of a coalition of different interests than an ideologically coherent party.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
No matter how many times this is debunked, the zombie lie keeps shambling forward. By any reasonable definition of the term, "the underclass" voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016. Voters earning less than $30,000/year split 53%/40% Clinton/Trump. The next highest grouping, $30,000/year to $50,000/year, split 53%/40% Clinton/Trump. Of course, when this kind of talking point rises from the grave yet again what's being referred to as "the underclass" actually means "the white underclass". (In American politics, the "white" is silent.) So yes, if you see "the underclass" in America as an exclusively white demographic, Donald Trump did surprisingly well with "the underclass" compared to Mitt Romney's 2012 performance, though he lost ground (again, relative to Romney) among the [white] middle class. The exact reason why the white underclass is the only demographic that's worthy of political attention is usually left unsaid.

Same is true, btw, of the evangelical vote. Reports of the high percentage of Trump voters among evangelicals are always citing figures of white evangelicals, even though non-whites are a very large subset of evangelicals. The vast majority of non-white evangelicals, not surprisingly, did not vote for Trump. Evangelicals of all ethnicities are rarely surveyed, which, as you suggest, is an interesting dynamic in and of itself.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Gramps49
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# 16378

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When asked if he asked Comey to slow down or end the Russian investigation, Trump said "No. No. Next question." He is putting his whole presidency on those four words.

Love to hear the tapes.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

While the American constitutional system is geared towards the existence of exactly and only two major political parties they don't necessarily have to be the same configuration of interest groups we see today.

ISTM, if America had other parties that were taken with some semblance of seriousness, it would be better for the country. The last time a third party candidate had a serious chance was Perot, yes? Before that Teddy Roosevelt?
Though the system is set up for two parties in power at any one time, if there were a greater number of substantial parties, I think the system would work better for the people. It could be more representative.
As to the Democrats being less polarised that the Republicans, I'll give you that they are less so, but not that they are truly inclusive. Could a Pro-Life Democrat become president? More open it might be, but the door is still guarded.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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Apparently, the Potus thinks Mr. Comey is a 'nut job'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39983257

Takes one to know one, I guess.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The last time a third party candidate had a serious chance was Perot, yes?

Perot wasn't a third party candidate. He didn't have a party - unless you think that "Ross Perot" counts as a party. His "Reform Party" has a handful of local elected officials associated with it over the whole country. It's a non-entity.
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Stetson
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# 9597

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The last time a third party candidate had a serious chance was Perot, yes?

Perot wasn't a third party candidate. He didn't have a party - unless you think that "Ross Perot" counts as a party. His "Reform Party" has a handful of local elected officials associated with it over the whole country. It's a non-entity.
According to the wikipedia article for the 1996 election, he ran under the Reform banner that year. However, due to state laws, he had to run as an independent in many states.

[ 19. May 2017, 19:44: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Apparently, the Potus thinks Mr. Comey is a 'nut job'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39983257

Takes one to know one, I guess.

IJ

What are the thoughts on these leaks? Are they unprecedented? Potentially coming from the disaffected within the White House? Cannot think of any other reason.

Certainly makes me go [Ultra confused]

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
According to the wikipedia article for the 1996 election, he ran under the Reform banner that year. However, due to state laws, he had to run as an independent in many states.

And "Reform" is a party created by Ross Perot for the purposes of furthering the ideas of Ross Perot.
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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
While the American constitutional system is geared towards the existence of exactly and only two major political parties they don't necessarily have to be the same configuration of interest groups we see today.

ISTM, if America had other parties that were taken with some semblance of seriousness, it would be better for the country. The last time a third party candidate had a serious chance was Perot, yes? Before that Teddy Roosevelt?
Though the system is set up for two parties in power at any one time, if there were a greater number of substantial parties, I think the system would work better for the people. It could be more representative.

Roosevelt's run on the Progressive ticket is an illustration of why this kind of 'electoral politics as a personalized consumer good' approach is self-destructive in the American political system. The net effect of former Republican Roosevelt running against Republican incumbent Taft was splitting the previously-Republican vote, allowing Woodrow Wilson to be only the second* Democrat elected to the presidency since the end of the Civil War.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "better". If you're looking for a political system that would give you personal validation that your political preferences are being catered to, albeit in an ineffective way, then sure, the Left-Handed Vegans in favor of Nuking Canada Party is a great idea. On the other hand, if you want a political system that actually gets things done, it's a terrible idea. American political parties are (or "were", in the case of the Republicans) coalitions of disparate, hopefully non-conflicting, interests that would support each other's agendas. Those wanting to raise the federal minimum wage, people wanting to legalize same-sex marriage, and people who favor tougher pollution controls may not individually constitute a majority (the threshold to get anything done in American politics), but could be a majority by joining forces.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
As to the Democrats being less polarised that the Republicans, I'll give you that they are less so, but not that they are truly inclusive. Could a Pro-Life Democrat become president? More open it might be, but the door is still guarded.

If a pro-life Democrat can become the Senate Majority/Minority Leader I'd say it's a least a possibility. On the other hand, political parties aren't supposed to be "inclusive" in the "anything goes" sense of the term. They exist to promote certain political agendas and, as such, there are certain things they're going to be for and other things they're going to be against. That said, the Democrats still fit into the "coalition of various interests" type of political party that's been more common throughout American history, whereas I'm not sure the same can be said about the present-day Republican party.


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*Third, if you count Grover Cleveland's non-consecutive wins to be two different presidencies.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Though the system is set up for two parties in power at any one time, if there were a greater number of substantial parties, I think the system would work better for the people. It could be more representative.

That would work if you change the voting system so that it's no longer first past the post. I can't see it working otherwise if the parties are organised along a left-right political spectrum. If you arrange the parties so that each has roughly equal support and each is equally likely to lose votes to both of the others then maybe you could call the results representative. But I think that's unlikely.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
If a pro-life Democrat can become the Senate Majority/Minority Leader I'd say it's a least a possibility. On the other hand, political parties aren't supposed to be "inclusive" in the "anything goes" sense of the term. They exist to promote certain political agendas and, as such, there are certain things they're going to be for and other things they're going to be against. That said, the Democrats still fit into the "coalition of various interests" type of political party that's been more common throughout American history, whereas I'm not sure the same can be said about the present-day Republican party.

Given that even St. Reagan would be barred from the Grand Old Party...
Still, America needs something...more.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

By the bye, I am (was?) a Republican. My party has deserted me...

Indeed. As a left-wing pro-life evangelical, I've got some awareness of what it's like when your tribe veers wildly off track. My sympathy.
This states a problem with USA politics as seen by a Canadian outsider. Pro-life cannot be enough to cause party adherence and voting. But holy fuck it is! One issue is not enough. You cannot separate that issue from health care, prisons, private versus public ownership of public and social services. There's a loss of civil society when things are polarised around a single issue. About which the press on Pence indicates he is as poisonous as trumpy. Have you seen laws he signed when a govenor? Toxic.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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