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Source: (consider it) Thread: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
No, I've never played croquet either. The number of things I have never done is very large. Nor do I ever watch either sport on TV.

Now I have the nightmarish thought that some barmy sports channel is televising live professional croquet matches.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
More "fun".
[Roll Eyes]

“I Hate Everyone in the White House!”: Trump Seethes as Advisers Fear the President Is “Unraveling” (Vanity Fair).

A "fun" game you can play with Mr. Sherman's article is count how many words or phrases can be interpreted as euphemisms for dementia. I get eight.
Separately, Sen. Corker's "adult day care" comment might not refer to T being as immature as a kid, but to the kind of adult day care center that's primarily for adults with dementia. They can have opportunities for some fun, and their caregivers get some downtime.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
[qb]Now I have the nightmarish thought that some barmy sports channel is televising live professional croquet matches.

Your wish is my command World championship croquet. Mallet to head?
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
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I know I only have myself to blame, but after watching a little bit I suspect YouTube will be recommending me croquet videos from now on... Or demanding I finish watching that one.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Hillary Clinton compares Weinstein to Trump.

Anything more obvious? Weinstein got fired. Facing criminal charges. Slinking off to "treatment". That other guy? Make America great again.

Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
No, I've never played croquet either. The number of things I have never done is very large. Nor do I ever watch either sport on TV.

Now I have the nightmarish thought that some barmy sports channel is televising live professional croquet matches.
I played backyard croquet when I was a kid, so I might actually enjoy that! [Biased]

Though I think amateurs--or even kids--would be more fun. "The Backyard Croquet Channel".
[Cool]

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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Addendum:

If you search YouTube for "backyard croquet", you'll get a lot of hits. Like "Monster Croquet" and "Croquet: The Backyard Blood Sport". I've also heard of extreme croquet, a version you play in rough country.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Ohher
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# 18607

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Goodness. Is all-white dress regulation wear for Croquet Heroes?

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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Ohher
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# 18607

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Hillary Clinton compares Weinstein to Trump.

Anything more obvious? Weinstein got fired. Facing criminal charges. Slinking off to "treatment". That other guy? Make America great again.

Even though I voted for this woman, I'm afraid it's time for Hillary to Shut Up. She is not helping. Anybody.

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From the Land of the Native American Brave and the Home of the Buy-One-Get-One-Free

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Ohher--

quote:
Originally posted by Ohher:
Goodness. Is all-white dress regulation wear for Croquet Heroes?

AIUI, it's standard for formal games--courtesy of the other side of the Pond, perhaps.
[Biased]

We used to have a local group who dressed and played that way in Golden Gate Park. Don't know if they're still around.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Martin60
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# 368

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Why are Europe and Canada the last bastions of liberal civilization?

I ask prompted by the axis of evil that is the US, Saudi et al and Israel demonizing Iran, which admittedly is fomenting unjust war in the Yemen, which little England is coining it from. Along with those nice liberal Europeans of course.

And why would Trump want to drive Turkey in to Russia's arms? Putin is an absolute genius. Le Carré was so right in Tinker, Tailor I recall: they're better than us.

[ 14. October 2017, 10:41: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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O, cheer us up, why don't you...

...still, at least Putin knows what he's doing, unlike The Barking Dog...

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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This week's Economist has a piece on how younger evangelicals are much less wedded to Trump than their elders, largely on the basis of their correspondent's visit to Wheaton College, Illinois.

I learned from it that some Clinton campaigners billed the election as "the first post-Christian" one, which I can see might put some Christians off voting for her.

I think the article is readable for non-subscribers if you haven't reached your limit, here.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
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I'd be interested if that holds true for those not-as-educated evangelicals who do not frequent such institutions.
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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I'd be interested if that holds true for those not-as-educated evangelicals who do not frequent such institutions.

From some of the things I've read about Wheaton, I'm not sure you'll have much of a contrast there.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Brenda Clough
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This will make the denizens of this board laugh. A headline from the "My Life in Sex" column in the Life section of today's Guardian:
We have rules in swinging: no married guys cheating on their wives, no one too young or too old, and no one who supports Trump.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This week's Economist has a piece on how younger evangelicals are much less wedded to Trump than their elders, largely on the basis of their correspondent's visit to Wheaton College, Illinois.

I teach at a large evangelical college (not Wheaton) and have been saying this for years. Younger evangelicals are significantly more progressive politically and socially, while still conservative theologically. Think Shane Clairborne. After the last election, I don't expect them to self-identify as "evangelical" much longer-- the term is hopelessly tainted and they don't want anything to do with it. The irony is these younger progressive evangelicals are far closer to historic evangelicalism then their politically conservative elders

They ( younger evangelicals) give me hope

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I'd be interested if that holds true for those not-as-educated evangelicals who do not frequent such institutions.

From some of the things I've read about Wheaton, I'm not sure you'll have much of a contrast there.
Yes, it's appalling: higher training in gratuitous drive-by cheap shots is not even on the syllabus there [Roll Eyes]

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Meanwhile, here's an interesting ethical twist.

Porn publisher offers $10m for information leading to Trump's impeachment.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Franklin Graham is a significant credibility problem for evangelicals. Supports trumpy criticizes Weinstein. Evangelical selective moral commentary is a real problem. It's all abortion and gays. I'm sure it's more nuanced than this but this is how it comes up in media. Hope cliffdweller is right and evangelicals can have a reboot. Or in older language, can experience conversion.
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Meanwhile, here's an interesting ethical twist.

Porn publisher offers $10m for information leading to Trump's impeachment.

I cannot imagine anything that would turn up that would have an impact, can you? Li'l Donny is on record dissing POWs, preening himself about his pussy-grabbing skills, describing his daughter as a piece of ass. What more could there be that would tar him, when vats and vats of black asphalt cannot?

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Meanwhile, here's an interesting ethical twist.

Porn publisher offers $10m for information leading to Trump's impeachment.

I cannot imagine anything that would turn up that would have an impact, can you? Li'l Donny is on record dissing POWs, preening himself about his pussy-grabbing skills, describing his daughter as a piece of ass. What more could there be that would tar him, when vats and vats of black asphalt cannot?
Videos of the above?

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
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I'd link but I really don't want that search history on my PC, sorry. And I really do not want to see them again - I saw them on the news at first iirc.
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Bishops Finger
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Perhaps if someone could come up with a video of The Deranged Dotard having sex with a MAN ?

[Eek!]

The way the ConFundos would try to twist that would be entertaining, even if the video itself was not...

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I think where it actually falls over is the 2/3 majority required in Congress.

As things stand, I predict a second term for Trump and I think the only thing liable to stop him is illness, not impeachment.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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jedijudy

Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
As things stand, I predict a second term for Trump and I think the only thing liable to stop him is illness, not impeachment.

Maybe not. I'm hearing more from my parents' contemporaries who voted for Trump and are terrified about his actions now. (Horse, barn door.) I'm hoping there will be enough conservatives switching to another candidate next time to assure T wins neither the popular nor the electoral college vote.

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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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I also hope the Democrats can come up with a leader who does not inspire the hatred that Hillary did. I don't know who's even in the running, but we need a great candidate in 2020.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by jedijudy:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
As things stand, I predict a second term for Trump and I think the only thing liable to stop him is illness, not impeachment.

Maybe not. I'm hearing more from my parents' contemporaries who voted for Trump and are terrified about his actions now. (Horse, barn door.) I'm hoping there will be enough conservatives switching to another candidate next time to assure T wins neither the popular nor the electoral college vote.
The only thing that will defeat him is if those who did not want him in office vote in sufficient numbers. He would have lost last time had they done so.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Hmm. Sex with a Russian? Nah. Murdering someone? Oh please. Sex with a Russian and then murdering him? Probably would award himself the Presidential Medal of Freedom. No, I have a very good imagination, and I can't see it.
What would work, perhaps, is solid proof of a crime that would send him to jail. Income tax fraud is an easy one there. Something that is egregious enough that they could not fail to convict, even if he had tantrums and threatened the witnesses/judge/prosecutors. Even if he started a war as a distraction, which of course he would.
Deep Throat told us, Follow the money. Still good advice, after all these years.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think where it actually falls over is the 2/3 majority required in Congress.

As things stand, I predict a second term for Trump and I think the only thing liable to stop him is illness, not impeachment.

Is the 2020 Republican Primaries where he might be stopped? It's been suggested (I think by Bruce Shapiro on Philip Adams' radio show Late Night Live) that Trump will be challenged if he is blamed for Republican approval ratings remaining in the toilet.

I think it is highly unlikely that the Republicans would do this, but who knows! Surely Trump would still run as an independent and wreck the right. I would laugh and laugh and laugh.

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Human

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Perhaps if someone could come up with a video of The Deranged Dotard having sex with a MAN ?

[Eek!]

Back in 1973 a lot of people wanted Nixon impeached, but then we'd have been stuck with Agnew as President. My boyfriend at the time, who was definitely straight, said he'd almost be willing to be caught in a compromising position with Agnew for the good of the country. I'm happy to say that Agnew was gotten rid of by more conventional methods -- and Nixon's departure followed in due course.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Dave W.
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# 8765

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think where it actually falls over is the 2/3 majority required in Congress.

As things stand, I predict a second term for Trump and I think the only thing liable to stop him is illness, not impeachment.

Is the 2020 Republican Primaries where he might be stopped? It's been suggested (I think by Bruce Shapiro on Philip Adams' radio show Late Night Live) that Trump will be challenged if he is blamed for Republican approval ratings remaining in the toilet.
I don't see why he would think that. Trump is extremely popular among Republicans; according to Gallup they give him a job approval rating of 81%, even though Americans on the whole give him only 38%.
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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Franklin Graham is a significant credibility problem for evangelicals. Supports trumpy criticizes Weinstein.

And is very anti-Muslim and anti-Islam.

IMNSHO, Franklin never should've taken over for his father, evangelist Billy Graham. Billy had his faults (IMHO, closeness to political power), but I don't recall him ever hearing him being *hateful*. (I grew up watching his "Crusades" (awful choice of words) on TV.)

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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lB--

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The only thing that will defeat him is if those who did not want him in office vote in sufficient numbers. He would have lost last time had they done so.

We did. The problem was at the electoral college level, which is more about strategy in *where* you get the votes.

And, of course, there's Russia.
[Mad] (at Putin and the hackers)

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
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# 368

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Meanwhile.

So why hasn't Wrong-un done a space test?

He can't. Yet. He will ASAP. But it has to work first time as that closes the US window of opportunity that they wouldn't take but might on a fizzle. A huge risk. Many of China's fizzled.

And why hasn't Trump provoked war to pre-empt that?

He can't.

Even though China would not invoke the '61 pact. A conventional war would cause vast casualties despite both sides able to shelter their populations and would go locally nuclear. THAAD might stop non-ICBMs, but twin US airborne assaults on launch sites immediately after non-nuclear missile strikes would trigger nuclear mines.

Why is China still supplying the DPRK with fuel for its vast stockpiles?

It suits them to. China and Russia are perfectly happy with them having ICBMs, the tech is Chinese, as leverage against the US.

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Love wins

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

And, of course, there's Russia.
[Mad] (at Putin and the hackers)

I think there's a huge danger making overblown claims about Russia - absent significant collaborating evidence (and not just Von Daniken/Alex Jones level 'what if' reasoning).

Ultimately Trump's victory could be said to be hinged on a few marginal races - in areas which Clinton didn't campaign particularly hard.

Perhaps Russian state sponsored actors were involved. In fact, without invoking a red scare, I'd be very surprised if they didn't attempt to be involved in the politics of countries they were opposed to (in the same way that the US has historically given succour to dissident groups and sought to influence the politics in other countries).

The idea that they suddenly discovered the magic potion that allowed them to swing an election is I think somewhat dangerous - as it diverts energy from where it can be more usefully deployed. Trump is - in many ways - the inevitable consequence of Republican party politics in the US.

Via things like Citizens United, US politics is already open to capture by the rich and the powerful - the evidence is that most of this influence is being exerted by those within the US rather than outside actors.

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

And, of course, there's Russia.
[Mad] (at Putin and the hackers)

I think there's a huge danger making overblown claims about Russia - absent significant collaborating evidence (and not just Von Daniken/Alex Jones level 'what if' reasoning).
I think you mean "corroborating evidence". Though I guess it would also be evidence of collaboration with the Trump campaign. Seems a bit of a Freudian slip.

quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Ultimately Trump's victory could be said to be hinged on a few marginal races - in areas which Clinton didn't campaign particularly hard.

This is bullshit. The three critical states involved were Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. These provide an interesting series of test about the effect of Clinton campaign effort on electoral outcomes. Wisconsin was not particularly contested (by either campaign), mostly some ad buys late in the campaign. Michigan was more vigorously contested throughout the campaign, but mostly via an 'air war' (i.e. ad buys in local media). In Pennsylvania Clinton went all in with many rallies and personal appearances, culminating in an election eve free concert featuring Bruce Springsteen.

In other words, we've got an almost perfect 'natural experiment' about whether the level of effort by the Clinton campaign was the decisive factor in marginal states, and the results seem to indicate that it was not.

quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Perhaps Russian state sponsored actors were involved.

Given what we know, why qualify with "perhaps"? Trump campaign officials have admitted to meeting with representatives of the Russian government to discuss interfering in the election and have thoughtfully provided evidence to back it up, using "perhaps" seems a bit postmature.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Franklin Graham is a significant credibility problem for evangelicals. Supports trumpy criticizes Weinstein.

And is very anti-Muslim and anti-Islam.

IMNSHO, Franklin never should've taken over for his father, evangelist Billy Graham. Billy had his faults (IMHO, closeness to political power), but I don't recall him ever hearing him being *hateful*. (I grew up watching his "Crusades" (awful choice of words) on TV.)

Totally agree. And Billy was at least pretty good at admitting his own failings. Franklin, not so much.

I keep thinking about all those int'l workers working for Samaritan's Purse. I imagine they are like most working in the field of development-- educated in sociological considerations, knowing the key to community transformation is building relationships. Imagine spending your life's work living in a community, building friendships, caring about their challenges because you share them-- only to have that life's work and all those hard-won relationships wiped away by yet another one of your boss' ignorant, hateful, xenophobic and very, very public statements. It's gotta be damn hellish.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Perhaps Russian state sponsored actors were involved.

Given what we know, why qualify with "perhaps"? Trump campaign officials have admitted to meeting with representatives of the Russian government to discuss interfering in the election and have thoughtfully provided evidence to back it up, using "perhaps" seems a bit postmature.
A bit of levity, because God knows we need some:
The Room Where it Happened

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Perhaps Russian state sponsored actors were involved.

Given what we know, why qualify with "perhaps"? Trump campaign officials have admitted to meeting with representatives of the Russian government to discuss interfering in the election and have thoughtfully provided evidence to back it up, using "perhaps" seems a bit postmature.
Let me rephrase; perhaps Trumps victory was down - in part or whole - to Russian influence - but so far none of the evidence is necessarily proof of that, though there are certainly some indications in that direction.

Ultimately, it's going to be a hard sell even if all the evidence is in order, going at it piecemeal is simply going to make it easier to dismiss such allegations even if and when they are proven.

It seems far more likely to me that if the Russians interfered in this election, that it was a generic case of them interfering in all US elections, rather than a special case of them interfering in this one alone. Anyone arguing that they were the main factor in Trumps victory would have to explain why in this one alone they were so uniquely successful.

At this time it seems far more obvious that Comey and the Kochs had more to do with Trumps eventual victory than the Russians did, and there are significant - and different - issues around both that need to be addressed even if the Russians are ultimately proved to have played a major role.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
It seems far more likely to me that if the Russians interfered in this election, that it was a generic case of them interfering in all US elections, rather than a special case of them interfering in this one alone.

I disagree. What we know so far seems to indicate an exceptional case of election interference by the Russian government, going far beyond anything we've seen in past American elections. As far as we know there were no major hacking efforts against the Obama, Romney, or McCain campaigns and, if there were, none of the purloined documents circulated in the press. By comparison, the contents of John Podesta's e-mail account started appearing on Wikileaks within an hour of the release of Trump's "pussy grabber" tape. Quelle coincidence!

Maybe there was a metabolism in Russian cyber-capabilities between 2012 and 2016, though I think it's more likely that there was simply a strong Russian preference for Trump that there wasn't for Romney, McCain, or Obama. I think it behooves any analysis of Russian hacking in the 2016 election to ask why this might be.

quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Anyone arguing that they were the main factor in Trumps victory would have to explain why in this one alone they were so uniquely successful.

At this time it seems far more obvious that Comey and the Kochs had more to do with Trumps eventual victory than the Russians did, and there are significant - and different - issues around both that need to be addressed even if the Russians are ultimately proved to have played a major role.

Complex events have complex causes, and trying to tease out the one single factor that determined everything is a fool's errand.

On the other hand, I suggest that it should not be a matter of indifference to Americans that an often-hostile foreign government seems both willing and able to perform what is essentially a more successful online version of the Watergate burglary. Why you seemingly take the contrary position is a bit baffling.

[ 16. October 2017, 16:50: Message edited by: Crœsos ]

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

I disagree. What we know so far seems to indicate an exceptional case of election interference by the Russian government, going far beyond anything we've seen in past American elections.

We know nothing of the sort. We have a bunch of disconnected dots and then some unsubstantiated claims by various people/organisations that are part of or linked to the state. Some of whom have in the past made great hay out of stirring up red scares or have fallen out with the Russian regime post Yelstin.

Which is not to say that all or part of the accusations may not be true - but that merits very careful and thorough investigation to build a case, rather than random accusations Maddow-style flights of fancy.

quote:

On the other hand, I suggest that it should not be a matter of indifference to Americans that an often-hostile foreign government seems both willing and able to perform what is essentially a more successful online version of the Watergate burglary. Why you seemingly take the contrary position is a bit baffling.

See above regarding very careful investigation. When the final denouement comes you better have every single last point crossed off, because they will scream foul. If there is one thing the extremes of the Republican movement know how to do it's harnessing resentment (this is the natural ground of Lost-Causers after all), and any notion of a Lost Presidency will animate them for decades.

In the meantime, there are plenty of other battles to fight; against voter suppresion, gerrymandering at the county and national level, the fallout from Citizens United, and the baleful influence of a few billionaires in national politics.

[ 16. October 2017, 20:17: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
It seems far more likely to me that if the Russians interfered in this election, that it was a generic case of them interfering in all US elections, rather than a special case of them interfering in this one alone.

quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I disagree. What we know so far seems to indicate an exceptional case of election interference by the Russian government, going far beyond anything we've seen in past American elections.

We know nothing of the sort. We have a bunch of disconnected dots and then some unsubstantiated claims by various people/organisations that are part of or linked to the state.
That seems a very far distance from your previous position that such interference was commonplace in the past. If you're going to claim Russian interference and computer hacking to influence American elections is so commonplace as to be "generic" I think you owe us more of an explanation than tut-tutting about the need to conduct a thorough investigation. Why does there seem to be so much evidence of such activities in this election cycle than in the past, if you claim it has been so prevalent for most of recent history?

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

That seems a very far distance from your previous position that such interference was commonplace in the past.

Not really. 'exceptional' was your word, not mine. That may be, but it's to be proven, not asserted.

quote:

If you're going to claim Russian interference and computer hacking to influence American elections is so commonplace as to be "generic"

There are a million ways to attempt to be 'involved in the politics of another country' and not all of them are 'computer hacking'. Just look at the playbook of the CIA over the past few decades. Manipulation by an all powerful enemy who subtle enough to engineer slim victory but whose actual means are yet to be discovered is a pretty extraordinary claim which demands extraordinary evidence.

quote:

I think you owe us more of an explanation than tut-tutting about the need to conduct a thorough investigation.

Explanation for what, precisely?

Ultimately, I don't think hyperventilating about a bunch of disconnected dots is particularly effective. If you want to indulge in it go ahead by all means. At this point, there is no guarentee that a Republican won't win the next presidential election.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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One has got to wonder if Russia is the most successful manipulator of elections in the world, and which country might be better at it than them.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I think you owe us more of an explanation than tut-tutting about the need to conduct a thorough investigation.

Explanation for what, precisely?
Your assertion that the Russian government has been "interfering in all US elections" for some unspecified time (though context would imply you mean several past elections at the least) and that their efforts in the 2016 election fall within the "generic" parameters of past efforts. That's quite a lot to claim, given the information currently onhand regarding their 2016 efforts.

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Prester John
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
One has got to wonder if Russia is the most successful manipulator of elections in the world, and which country might be better at it than them.

If we're grading on a curve I think it is safe to say that the U.S. is not in danger of failing. The WaPo article doesn't mention recent meddling in the Ukraine under the previous administration.
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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

Your assertion that the Russian government has been "interfering in all US elections" for some unspecified time (though context would imply you mean several past elections at the least)

Historically during the Soviet-era they attempted to influence the direction of politics in a number of Western European countries. While this was overblown by the security services for their own ends - it existed as a phenomanae. Since then they've definitely tried to influence politics in the former Eastern Europe and SSR states. They are also familiar with how the West sought to influence politics throughout the world, including in Russia during the Yelstin-era. I think it's highly probable that if they interferred with this election, that they also interferred with others (all it requires is a set of techniques and a willingness to use them).

quote:

and that their efforts in the 2016 election fall within the "generic" parameters of past efforts. That's quite a lot to claim, given the information currently onhand regarding their 2016 efforts.

What concrete information do we actually have regarding their efforts? We have meetings, emails with vague references to unspecified help, and allegations that the release of some information was highly coincidental. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that at least some of this goes on some of the time. Phishing to find the guillible - if thats what it was - isn't a technique restricted to the intelligence services.

But again, all this matters not a jot unless real evidence is found, until then it just diverts energy, gives a partisan edge to the whole thing and makes those on the other side double down in defiance.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
They are also familiar with how the West sought to influence politics throughout the world, including in Russia during the Yelstin-era. I think it's highly probable that if they interferred with this election, that they also interferred with others (all it requires is a set of techniques and a willingness to use them).

.. and in fact there is an article on just this topic linked off the link in the previous post to mine:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/09/07/sure-the-u-s-and-russia-often-meddle-in-foreign-elections-does- it-matter/

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Oh, let's be really clear. The best manipulation of another country in recent memory has to be the USA's manipulation of the Mujahadeen (forerunners of Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan which led directly to the collapse of the Soviet Union**. (Of course the Mujahadeen thought they did it, and this directly leads to the Islamic terror problems, but that's beside this point).

Additional manipulations include the invasion of Iraq and destabilization of it, the overthrow of the Libyan government. Then there's Tunisia, Egypt, and farther back in time, Iran, and into my youth, Chile, Vietnam. I've missed some.

None of these are elections are they? So the Russians do it with more finesse and not requiring of force of arms?

**How Jimmy Carter and I started the Mujahideen - interview of Zbignew Brzezinski, Carter's secretary of state or some such position.

[ 16. October 2017, 23:32: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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