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Source: (consider it) Thread: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread
Barnabas62
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# 9110

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romanlion

I'll bite. Which of John McCain's principles, as perceived by you, do you think are debatable.

[ 24. December 2017, 12:21: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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romanlion
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
romanlion

I'll bite. Which of John McCain's principles, as perceived by you, do you think are debatable.

As perceived by me? In that context he doesn't have any, except war.

Can't say he hasn't been consistent on that one.

He is the embodiment of everything wrong with the DC political establishment. Cynical, self-serving, duplicitous...

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Barnabas62
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Oh I see.

quote:
He is the embodiment of everything wrong with the DC political establishment. Cynical, self-serving, duplicitous...
.

That's your perception. Do you see anything meritorious at all in his character? Any examples of good behaviour, good actions, which might be worth following?

Or in your perception is he just totally without merit? I just wonder what standards you are applying and whether you apply them to yourself in judging human merit.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Last night they showed the footage of John McCain getting interviewed in a Nth Vietnamese hospital after he got his broken bones set without any painkillers. You could see the pain and fear in his eyes and in his voice. The man was expecting to die.

If he had, his principles wouldn't have been so debatable as they are now.
What debatable principles again? Within the debatable principles of your metanarrative? What are they by the way? Oh Principled Man? Your demonstrable principles? You know, the things you do when no one's watching? The principles God knows you for?

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
romanlion
editorial comment
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Oh I see.

quote:
He is the embodiment of everything wrong with the DC political establishment. Cynical, self-serving, duplicitous...
.

That's your perception. Do you see anything meritorious at all in his character? Any examples of good behaviour, good actions, which might be worth following?

Or in your perception is he just totally without merit? I just wonder what standards you are applying and whether you apply them to yourself in judging human merit.

I make no judgement about his human merit. I don't know him.

As a Senator I think he is pretty useless.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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Did anyone watch "Meet the Press," this morning? They had a montage of Trump's first year starting with his lie about how many people turned out for his inauguration and Kelly Anne's defense inaugurating the phrase, "Alternative facts."

It included an interview with John McCain just after Trump said the news could not be trusted. The MTP anchorman asked Mc Cain if he believed it was important to the country to have a free and trustworthy press and he said yes he thought it was vital to the country. McCain then added, "And I say that even though I absolutely hate the press and hate you most of all."

I used to dislike McCain but these days I believe that, as he sees the end of his life approaching, he has become wonderfully, refreshingly honest.

The show was depressing, terrifying and funny.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
he has become wonderfully, refreshingly honest.

If only they all would.

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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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For the love of God.

That man puts the capital T in tacky.

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romanlion
editorial comment
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
For the love of God.

That man puts the capital T in tacky.

Is someone gonna say it?

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
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Better spell it out for me. My brain is simple at the best of times, and now I'm on holidays it's switched off. Clearly.
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Over on Dictionary.com's twitter page the word of the day a couple days ago was 'sycophant.' It was illustrated by a photo of Mike Pece, currently famed for praising Crooked Don once every 12 second for three entire minutes of speechifying.

[ 24. December 2017, 23:55: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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Hearing that 3 ghosts are being encouraged to visit the American Orange Scrooge in Florida tonight but the gooey puffball is accusing the ghost of Christmas past of false news so the other two ghosts are still waiting.

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
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The problem with sticking to your principles in politics is that nothing gets done. Politics is truly the art of compromise. John McCain has a history of getting stuff done, and stopping stuff that shouldn't get done.

If you don't condemn Trump's attacks on his war record, you are not a patriotic American.

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Human

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Bishops Finger
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# 5430

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As regards the Three Ghosts, I hope that the Ghost of Christmas Present does eventually get a word in edgeways about all the misery The Great Orange Goblin is causing...

...as regards the Ghost of Christmas Yet To Come, I suspect that he'll be redundant, coz The GOG, the End-Times 'Christians' of Great Usania, Little Vlad, and Kim Wrong-Trim, between them will probably ensure that next Christmas never happens.

Hah! Bumhug!

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
For the love of God.

That man puts the capital T in tacky.

Is someone gonna say it?
Merry Christmas, Ian

"tacky" doesn't have a capital "T" unless it's "Tacky".

There, I've said it. And await correction ...

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Martin60
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# 368

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Oh I see.

quote:
He is the embodiment of everything wrong with the DC political establishment. Cynical, self-serving, duplicitous...
.

That's your perception. Do you see anything meritorious at all in his character? Any examples of good behaviour, good actions, which might be worth following?

Or in your perception is he just totally without merit? I just wonder what standards you are applying and whether you apply them to yourself in judging human merit.

I make no judgement about his human merit. I don't know him.

As a Senator I think he is pretty useless.

That's a shame. He speaks very highly of you.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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[Hot and Hormonal] Thanks Barnabas62. And Merry Christmas to you too.

I'll blame my tiny phone. And too much Christmas punch.

[ 25. December 2017, 19:48: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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...except "putting a capital (letter) in (word)" is a known phrase--here, at least.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...except "putting a capital (letter) in (word)" is a known phrase--here, at least.

And particularly apt here since Donald is fond of blazening every property he owns with enormous, tacky, gold capital Ts

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Recently, Trump bemoaned the Republicans’ loss in a special election in Alabama and in part blamed Sessions, whose departure from the Senate to head to Justice necessitated the election.
The passive voice used by the AP obscures the fundamental ridiculousness of Trump's complaint about there being a special election in Alabama this year. No one forced Donald Trump to appoint Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III attorney general.

To quote blogger Erik Loomis, Presidents should never name sitting office holders to appointed positions.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Gramps49
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# 16378

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When McCain was standing for president, I had several issues with him: his history and his positions, but there was the time when a lady stood up and practically accused Obama of being a Muslim and McCain cut her off. He defended Obama as being an honest man who he happened to disagree with.

Would that our name caller in chief showed such integrity.

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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I'm hearing, mainly because I watch The Young Turks on YouTube, about the Justice Democrats, an organisation formed I believe by one if TYT's founders.

Are they too left to do any good?

Is splitting the Democrat vote wise? Even if it is just for a candidate? Do you risk alienating more progressive voters if the traditional candidate gets up? Or is the fact Trump is in meaning it is more likely people will get out to smash the Republicans?

Any other concerns?

Thanks.

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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The Judean People's Front response is apposite here. When the dems have been in power for half a century you can split into factions. While the right is playing footsies with the Nazi Party it is time to hang together.

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Human

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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I'm hearing, mainly because I watch The Young Turks on YouTube, about the Justice Democrats, an organisation formed I believe by one if TYT's founders.

Are they too left to do any good?

Is splitting the Democrat vote wise?

Never heard of them before you mentioned them, but their Wiki page indicates that they're a PAC, not a rival political party. Their ostensible tactic seems to be backing more leftish Democratic candidates in primaries rather than running competing candidates in general elections. Given that, I don't think their activities, if the Wiki description is accurate, count as "splitting the Democrat[ic] vote". You can debate the advisability of giving up the advantages of incumbency, but it's not vote splitting.

In other news Trump has apparently given a long, rambling, semi-coherent interview to the New York Times*. For those who don't want to (or can't) read the Times excerpts, Joy Ann Reid summarizes it on Twitter. And from the Twitter feed of Josh Dawsey of the Washington Post we get this:

quote:
Asked fairly senior Trump adviser for thoughts on NYT interview a few minutes ago. Person responded: "What interview? Today?"
Which might explain why Trump was giving an interview without advisors or legal counsel present.


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*The New York Times has a paywall limiting non-subscribers to viewing ten NYT articles per calendar month. Only click through if you're a Times subscriber or are willing to use one of your ten monthly Times passes to read Trump sundowning.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
# 6075

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Seems the entire HIV/AIDS advisory council has just been sacked, according to the WaPo. (Some members had already resigned earlier in protest against the cuts in healthcare.)

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
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Thanks Crœsos and simontoad.

So the information came from our High Commissioner. Interesting.

[ 31. December 2017, 05:20: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Not just Downer though... but yeah, funny. Downer was a noted party boy in his youth.

I like the last bit from Drumpf in that NYT transcript. "You have to re-elect me, because if you don't you won't have Donald J. Trump to kick around anymore and you'll all go broke." I'm paraphrasing. You could drive a truck through most of what he says, but either the bastard doesn't know, or doesn't care. I suspect the latter, dammit.

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Human

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Crooked Don is of course just a major (Yuge!) symptom, of course. But he;s certainly precipitated a major crisis in Christianity. This should be a free click.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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In cabinet papers released this morning it was revealed that PM Keating did not want a directly elected President because the people might elect someone inappropriate. As it happened, the proposal to become a republic went down in a screaming heap, but how right Keating was. If only the US Founding Fathers had such foresight, although to be fair to them they were entering a brave new world.

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Human

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romanlion
editorial comment
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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
In cabinet papers released this morning it was revealed that PM Keating did not want a directly elected President because the people might elect someone inappropriate. As it happened, the proposal to become a republic went down in a screaming heap, but how right Keating was. If only the US Founding Fathers had such foresight, although to be fair to them they were entering a brave new world.

We don't have a direct election for President...

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
We don't have a direct election for President...

But how I wish that we did!
[Frown]

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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romanlion
editorial comment
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
We don't have a direct election for President...

But how I wish that we did!
[Frown]

And had that brainless toad in 2000?! God knows where we would be now.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
We don't have a direct election for President...

But how I wish that we did!
[Frown]

I mostly agree with Pigwidgeon. I'm still not sure about ditching the Electoral College. It did give us Lincoln. And we don't generally like to mess too much with the work of the Founding Guys. (E.g., we've had something like 25 amendments to the Constitution in more than 200 years.)

OTOH, based on the 2016 popular vote, Hillary would be in the Oval Office, and T would be looking for a new TV series.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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sorry, I meant directly elected as opposed to appointed by the Parliament.

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Human

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
We don't have a direct election for President...

But how I wish that we did!
[Frown]

And had that brainless toad in 2000?! God knows where we would be now.
No, no -- we DID get the brainless toad in 2000, thanks to the Supreme Court.

[Mad]

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472

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The Electoral College was intended to give smaller states a larger-than-proportional voice in the choice of president and vice-president.* If one thinks that this is important, then the structure works. If one doesn't believe this to be relevant, then the US might wish to change it.

Currently, with Republican majorities in the smaller central and prairie states, the situation favours Republican candidates. But for many years, many smaller states preferred Democratic candidates. There's a paper on this around which I would love to provide links, but the laser light show is about to begin at the stroke of midnight here!

*Its other purpose, of magnifying the political power of slave states, is no longer relevant.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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As a citizen residing in the most populous state in the union, I'm perpetually angry that our votes here count less than those of people in every other state.
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
We don't have a direct election for President...

But how I wish that we did!
[Frown]

And had that brainless toad in 2000?! God knows where we would be now.
No Iraq war?

A more advanced engagement with climate change?

Just a couple of examples.

Now they don't sound too bad, do they.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
[qb] We don't have a direct election for President...

But how I wish that we did!
[Frown]

And had that brainless toad in 2000?! God knows where we would be now.
No Iraq war?

A more advanced engagement with climate change?

Just a couple of examples.

Now they don't sound too bad, do they.

So you would trade PEPFAR for both of those?


[Disappointed]

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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That assumes a different President wouldn't have created something similar to PEPFAR.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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Weird assumption, isn't it?

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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No more weird than yours.

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
And had that brainless toad in 2000?! God knows where we would be now.

I'm pretty sure that any argument that postulates the superior intelligence of George W. Bush is prima facie an absurd argument.

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I mostly agree with Pigwidgeon. I'm still not sure about ditching the Electoral College. It did give us Lincoln.

Not really. Although he didn't have an outright majority in 1860 Lincoln was still the top vote getter, having a third again as many votes as his nearest rival. Any system predicated on awarding the presidency to whoever won the most votes would have installed Lincoln in the White House.

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And we don't generally like to mess too much with the work of the Founding Guys. (E.g., we've had something like 25 amendments to the Constitution in more than 200 years.)

It should be noted that the work of "the Founding Guys" has already been messed with as far as the Electoral College goes.

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
The Electoral College was intended to give smaller states a larger-than-proportional voice in the choice of president and vice-president.* If one thinks that this is important, then the structure works. If one doesn't believe this to be relevant, then the US might wish to change it.

Not at all. The Electoral College was intended to be a political compromise palatable to enough factions at the Constitutional Convention. It was the first choice of very few delegates and was only agreed to fairly late in the Convention after being hammered out in the Committee of Eleven on Postponed Matters. As the name implies this Committee dealt mostly with things where the Founders had strong disagreements rather than definite intentions. It's more accurate to say that the effect of the Electoral College is to amplify the power of smaller states and slave-intensive states in selecting the American president, rather than to attribute these effects to deliberate intention. Any intention by the Committee of Eleven went no further than getting enough support from the Convention to pass controversial issues.

quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
No Iraq war?

A more advanced engagement with climate change?

Just a couple of examples.

Now they don't sound too bad, do they.

So you would trade PEPFAR for both of those?
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
That assumes a different President wouldn't have created something similar to PEPFAR.

There may be some credibility to that assumption. Given that Al Gore publicly criticized the rush to invade Iraq prior to the outbreak of war it seems a pretty good assumption that he wouldn't have engaged in the widespread campaign of deception and lies that seems to have been necessary to sell the idea of the Iraq War to anyone outside PNAC. The idea that a President Gore would not have engaged with climate change seems even more dubious. On the other hand PEPFAR is the kind of program Democrats are typically supportive of. Most Democratic criticisms of the program focus on its perceived inefficiency that come from exporting American culture war issues (abstinence education, refusal to run or fund needle exchanges, etc.)

That said, PEPFAR is also the kind of programs Republican politicians typically hate when proposed by Democratic politicians. For comparison, see the Democratic vs. Republican responses to John Roberts inept re-writing of the Affordable Care Act to make the Medicaid expansion optional for states. I can see the politics of spite preventing a Democratic president from passing something like PEPFAR. romanlion's contention that the only decent response to this kind of legislative hostage-taking is to kill a bunch of Iraqis for no good reason and leave the Sixth Extinction unaddressed seems kind of dubious though.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Thanks for giving some context to Romanlion's remarks Croessus, inter alia.

I think I'll do another thread on Australia's Republican push in a month or so. There has been a development yesterday, although that might prove to be a mirage. It will be interesting, as we will be going through all these debates again. My preference is to avoid an office of President becoming a competing locus of power. I prefer the executive power to come from the Parliament, and the Head of State to be a figurehead.

I had a terrible dream the other day. I won't go through all the rabbit holes, but at one stage I was a corporate Lawyer in America, and I had to step in at the last minute on a pitch for government work. Trump was at the meeting, and asked all sorts of questions. Then I found myself alone in a very confined space with Trump, and I told him all my vicarious military stories about the people I stayed with as a 16 year old. Trump was impressed, and as he left the very confined space, he said something that indicated that he wanted me on his team. I was incredibly conflicted by this, as on the one hand it would be an express route to the golden ticket that is partnership in a large commercial law firm, and on the other, I hate and despise Trump. I woke up very stressed.

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Human

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

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Thanks Crœsos; very helpful.

Trump's start to the year.

When this nightmare is over, assuming the Democrats get in with a majority, how easy is it to rollback (or dare I dream, rollback and go further than they did before to help those in need?) the changes this administration is making? I know they haven't got a lot through number-wise, but the tax changes will have a huge impact, especially years down the track. Can the rot be stopped?

Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472

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@Croesus. Perhaps we are using the word intended differently. I was not really focussing on what a Convention committee was trying to achieve politically, but rather on the objective intent of the electoral college provisions-- after all, pretty well most provisions of the US Constitution come from a political compromise.

Some writers say that the only real intent was to strengthen the voice of slave states (George Edwards, Winant professor of American government at Oxford) and others ascribe the mechanism as a way of addressing the mistrust many of the new states had of each other. It was never designed to work with political parties and assumed that nobody would campaign nationally, which has made it a possibly vestigial organ.

But perhaps we are just quibbling about terminology.

Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
No more weird than yours.

Read Croesos. You're way ahead on the weird stakes, on the basis of evidence, rather than unsupported assertions.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
When this nightmare is over, assuming the Democrats get in with a majority, how easy is it to rollback (or dare I dream, rollback and go further than they did before to help those in need?) the changes this administration is making? I know they haven't got a lot through number-wise, but the tax changes will have a huge impact, especially years down the track. Can the rot be stopped?

Scott Lemieux takes a swing at that question in an LA Times opinion piece. The short version is that things like the recent tax bill can, and likely will, be undone fairly easily by the next Democratic government. Where the real damage is occurring is in Trump's appointments to the federal judiciary and the things he's accomplishing through regulatory rollbacks. Pollution dumped under Scott Pruitt's EPA can't be repealed from the environment by a Democratic Congress and families broken up by Trump's ethnic cleansing immigration policies will never get those years apart back.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

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Perhaps El Gropo Supremo will crash in flames before too much damage is done (though damage enough has been done already)?

One can but hope.

IJ

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

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After a full year of him you would think all the analyses have been written. But this one from the POST is interesting, arguing that Crooked Don's notable cruelty is actually a sign of his weakness.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged



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