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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Oops - your Trump presidency discussion thread
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Given his character and previous history as a witness, his advisers are, understandably, desperate to avoid that!
He lies and misrepresents routinely. There was a famous judge's quote about the disgraced UK politician John Stonehouse. 'For Mr Stonehouse, truth was a moving target'.
You can say that in spades for President Trump.
Little wonder that as a rookie he plays this game so effectively. Must be infuriating for those that have been practicing for decades...
It seems inaccurate to portray Donald Trump as a "rookie" liar.
I thought it was obvious enough that no POTUS is a rookie liar. The "game" I refer to is the national political game.
I thought Trump said he was going to drain the swamp, not wallow in it. You can't use the behavior of other politicians to defend Trump. Defend him on his merits as you see them.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Defend him on his merits as you see them.
I don't defend Trump, but let me know when he starts assassinating US citizens with drone strikes and we can discuss his merits, or lack thereof.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I’m sure he’s taking notes from his bestie Vladimir, who’s so far helped at least 38 of his political critics meet with an array of unfortunate incidents.
[ 08. February 2018, 00:57: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
If the Trumperator is going to have a Roman triumph, which captive will be put to death at the moment he gets his acclamation? Hillary or Barack, perhaps? Or Mueller?
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Defend him on his merits as you see them.
I don't defend Trump, but let me know when he starts assassinating US citizens with drone strikes and we can discuss his merits, or lack thereof.
Oh yeah I forgot. You only do drive-by criticism. Are you prepared to tell me why assassinating US citizens with drone strikes is wrong, while shooting them dead with guns in the homeland is OK?
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
The Trumperator will also need a slave to whisper in his ear that he is mortal. Pence, perhaps?
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
And he'd need to display plenty of loot.
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'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eirenist:
The Trumperator will also need a slave to whisper in his ear that he is mortal. Pence, perhaps?
What about the bloke with a thyroid problem from New Jersey?
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Defend him on his merits as you see them.
I don't defend Trump, but let me know when he starts assassinating US citizens with drone strikes and we can discuss his merits, or lack thereof.
Ah, it's only US citizens lives that matter, or those of rich Russians. And his imported wives.
You've got to face it Romanlion, a consequence of drone strikes and the like is retaliation against American interests and armed forces plus growing instability in the Middle East. If that can be believed.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Except that retaliation against American Interests has been going on since at least the 1950's. The Americans may as well do their worst if being hated is a reason not to do something.
Shall we talk about how much 'we' British are hated now?
I'm calling you to hell Romanlion.
[ 08. February 2018, 11:00: Message edited by: simontoad ]
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
changed my mind, pointless.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Defend him on his merits as you see them.
I don't defend Trump, but let me know when he starts assassinating US citizens with drone strikes and we can discuss his merits, or lack thereof.
Oh yeah I forgot. You only do drive-by criticism. Are you prepared to tell me why assassinating US citizens with drone strikes is wrong, while shooting them dead with guns in the homeland is OK?
Trump shot someone?! Jeez, I guess he was right...I hadn't even heard about it!
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Simontoad: Chris Christie, the bloke from New Jersey who looks/ talks/ acts like a minor actor in a mob drama, has a new gig as special correspondent for ABC News. “ May you live in interesting times.”
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
I don't defend Trump, but let me know when he starts assassinating US citizens with drone strikes and we can discuss his merits, or lack thereof.
Oh yeah I forgot. You only do drive-by criticism. Are you prepared to tell me why assassinating US citizens with drone strikes is wrong, while shooting them dead with guns in the homeland is OK?
Trump shot someone?! Jeez, I guess he was right...I hadn't even heard about it!
If your definition of responsibility requires pulling the trigger himself no American president has ever "assassinat[ed] US citizens with drone strikes" either. Isn't that reassuring?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
This is from the Guardian and very fine, the dean of Christ Church Oxford analyzing Crooked Don's religion. "Trump’s interior religious landscape is a kind of politico-spiritual Ponzi scheme, and his politics flow from this. Opportunism, pragmatism and positivism are the lessons Trump learned from Peale’s pulpit."
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
From Dean Percy's thoughtful article:
quote:
This age will pass.
Which reminded me of this wonderful passage, from Tolkien's Lord Of The Rings, at the point where Sam and Frodo are within the borders of Mordor, and struggling towards Mount Doom, in order to fulfil their quest:
quote:
There, peeping among the cloud-wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him.
For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.
His song in the Tower had been defiance rather than hope; for then he was thinking of himself. Now, for a moment, his own fate, and even his master's, ceased to trouble him. He crawled back into the brambles and laid himself by Frodo's side, and putting away all fear he cast himself into a deep untroubled sleep.
Crawl back into the brambles, O America, but soon, O Lord, soon....
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
From the Guardian, Trump evangelical advisor says faith is better than flu shots. I am totally good with this, it's a free country. But I am going to make a sign for the Science march in April. It will say "Darwin Always Wins." Die of the flu if you want!
Natural selection ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I feel sorry for the kids ‘tho.
Alas, that's the Darwinian part of it. The stupid genes do not need to get into the gene pool. You =want= your children to survive to reproduce. We are, every single one of us, descendants in a long unbroken line of people who knew that. If your desire for this is in any way flawed, you are defective. You not only will not have grandchildren, you ought not. I certainly do not want my grandson to marry this woman's descendants, if any. (He is not yet two, so it's not really an issue.)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
@ romanlion
Is this what bothers you?
How about this?
Or this?
No, more like this.
"Thanks to Obama’s actions, Donald Trump will be inaugurated into an office that presumes the authority to secretly order the extrajudicial killings of American citizens. Was the particular way that Obama targeted Anwar al-Awlaki worth that price?"
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Strange logic, romanlion. Obama legitimates drone strikes too freely, realises this was wrong, tries to wrap more control around the process with some partial success.
Trump comes into office, gives every sign of wanting to take the gloves off. So that somehow makes Trump's increased aggressiveness Obama's fault?
Use of targeted drone strikes is brutal and causes innocent deaths. No question. It's better than carpet bombing or chemical gassing.
Be thankful you don't sit in the White House and face these vile choices in seeking to reduce the threats of international terrorism.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Obama legitimates drone strikes too freely, realises this was wrong, tries to wrap more control around the process...
That's your strange logic right there, particularly from a guy who refers to himself as a "constitutional law professor".
You expect that Trump's red-tailed opponent would have done any different than he has?
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
You expect that Trump's red-tailed opponent would have done any different than he has?
Reflexive (but unreflective) Bothsidesism must be one hell of a drug. I suspect it's at least as hard to kick as heroin. I can see the attraction. It gives the illusory appearance of worldly-wise cynicism as a cover for being unable (or unwilling) to do any kind of analysis. Plus you get to the rush of feeling morally superior to anyone who expresses a strong opinion about anything.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Clinton isn't a dove. I think it highly unlikely she'd have cut back on drone strikes.
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arse
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Use of targeted drone strikes is brutal and causes innocent deaths. No question. It's better than carpet bombing or chemical gassing.
Be thankful you don't sit in the White House and face these vile choices in seeking to reduce the threats of international terrorism.
Which puts these things beyond criticism, which I'm sure wasn't your intention.
I don't think there's anything particularly controversial with suggesting that the direction of the past few years has meant that a number of precedents have been set that are rather unfortunate.
Which tends to cast some of the Democrats current lionisation of the intelligence services in a different light,
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Clinton isn't a dove. I think it highly unlikely she'd have cut back on drone strikes.
Would she have increased them as much as Trump has? If you're going to argue a counter-factual you should present more than a hand-waving "eh, she's a 'hawk' so she'd be exactly the same as Donald Trump in every possible way". That's pretty much exactly what I mean about the inherent laziness of reflexive bothsidesism. It's not a serious analysis, it's a dodge to avoid serious analysis.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And surely by now the 'But Hillary would be -worse-' argument can be laid to rest? The current incumbent has been in there for more than a year now. A solid case can be made that -nobody- could be worse. I personally yearn for Mitt Romney, dog-crate and all.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Use of targeted drone strikes is brutal and causes innocent deaths. No question. It's better than carpet bombing or chemical gassing.
Be thankful you don't sit in the White House and face these vile choices in seeking to reduce the threats of international terrorism.
Which puts these things beyond criticism, which I'm sure wasn't your intention.
I don't think there's anything particularly controversial with suggesting that the direction of the past few years has meant that a number of precedents have been set that are rather unfortunate.
Which tends to cast some of the Democrats current lionisation of the intelligence services in a different light,
chris
Obama doesn't get a free pass from me on this issue. To say that values and ethics get put through a meat grinder when trying to find effective responses to terrorism is putting it mildly.
Horrid though it may be, there is a trade off in place balancing the value of killing a terrorist leader against the risk of death or injury to civilians. Similar arguments were in play in WW2 over the bombing of strategic targets. In its most extreme form, the trade off landed on Harry Truman's desk over the A Bomb dropping. How many allied lives would be saved by shortening the war?
The drone argument simply exposes this trade off in a different way. We can debate the morality of all such trade off decisions from the comfort of our armchairs, be as purist as we like. We don't get to live with the responsibility either way.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
If you're going to argue a counter-factual you should present more than a hand-waving "eh, she's a 'hawk' so she'd be exactly the same as Donald Trump in every possible way".
That applies to counter-factuals in both directions.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Obama doesn't get a free pass from me on this issue.
I'm not sure in what sense he isn't getting a free pass:
quote:
The drone argument simply exposes this trade off in a different way. We can debate the morality of all such trade off decisions from the comfort of our armchairs, be as purist as we like. We don't get to live with the responsibility either way.
"It's all too complicated, you can't possibly understand or make judgements on such conduct"
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Do you think all such trade off arguments are immoral? If so, there are no complications at all.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Do you think all such trade off arguments are immoral? If so, there are no complications at all.
Not necessarily, but I don't think I'd trust even the most saintly human with the sorts of (largely unchecked) powers it implies especially when conducted within the aegis of a anywhere and forever war.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
If you're going to argue a counter-factual you should present more than a hand-waving "eh, she's a 'hawk' so she'd be exactly the same as Donald Trump in every possible way".
That applies to counter-factuals in both directions.
That doesn't really make sense. Donald Trump's actions as president* are not a "counter-factual". They're factual reality. Claiming that Hillary Clinton agrees with Donald Trump about everything and would therefore take the exact same actions as Trump is counter-factual in that it is counter to the facts.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
That doesn't really make sense. Donald Trump's actions as president* are not a "counter-factual". They're factual reality.
Claiming that Clinton would have necessarily been less hawkish is the counterfactual.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
It doesn't just boil down to a Commander in Chief in a situation room somewhere saying 'go' or 'no go'.
The recent movie 'Eye in the Sky' explored the deadly trade-off in some detail, and there was much buck-passing going on in the assessment of political risk, military advantage, casualty risk. Figures got fudged. It is a messy decision and includes some load sharing. I guess there are some 'algorithms' in use to evaluate the risks and advantages.
Nothing will make it less dirty than it is.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
That doesn't really make sense. Donald Trump's actions as president* are not a "counter-factual". They're factual reality.
Claiming that Clinton would have necessarily been less hawkish is the counterfactual.
Have I actually made that claim? Has anyone here? Brenda has made the blanket statement that no one is worse than Trump, but she didn't couch it in terms of a policy of an expanded bombing campaign.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
It doesn't just boil down to a Commander in Chief in a situation room somewhere saying 'go' or 'no go'.
The recent movie 'Eye in the Sky' explored the deadly trade-off in some detail
Sure - and we have some documentation on how the procedure is carried out so we don't need to rely purely on fictional accounts. As an example here:
https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/
quote:
It is a messy decision and includes some load sharing.
Which is certainly one way that no one is responsible for any mistakes - which are minimized anyway given the frequent classification of all military aged men as 'combatants'.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
You know who really didn't give Obama a pass?
Malala Yousafzai. She was ticked off about him blowing up her country and told him so to his face. Because "when God gives you a voice, you must use it, even if it's to tell the President of the United States that he's wrong."
I love that girl. ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
The use of drones is a wedge issue. Romanlion couldn't give a rat's arse about it. But he knows that it will get opponents of Trump arguing with each other and deflect criticism away from the fact that Trump is not fully human, but the six-million dollar man. That's how much he has spent on hair replacement therapy.
We live in a shitty world where force is a tool of international relations. Like Romanlion, I don't give a rat's arse about drone strikes in our current situation. I like them. And I like full-on assassinations carried out by the secret services, and I like kidnapping people off the street. I would like Australian and other fighters in the middle east to die on the battlefield rather than return home. I'm especially keen for Filipino and Indonesian militants to die in that way rather than return home.
If I've had enough to drink I will say I don't mind Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand and many other countries executing dirtbag Australian drug mules either. Obviously it would be better if we could put out their eyes and slit their noses so that they had a chance to repent of their sins, but wussy liberals won't let us do that anymore.
Now that I've muddied my point (Romanlion is giving us a WEDGIE), I'll shut up.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
chris stiles
Re the Intercept links, which I hadn't seen, do you agree their use of the term assassinations?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Re the Intercept links, which I hadn't seen, do you agree their use of the term assassinations?
Depends on which sense it is being used. In the strictly literal sense it's correct. In the legal sense the entire issue is grey which is a big part of the problem.
Once a mechanism is created it will be used by everyone who comes to office - which is why they should be created with checks and balances to start with. In the case of the drone program there is no sense in which there is an independent review of the effectiveness - or otherwise - of such a program.
If any oppressed people group was running a similar program against their occupiers with similar levels of collateral damage we would have no hesitation in condemning the means used.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
The use of drones is a wedge issue. Romanlion couldn't give a rat's arse about it.
Despite your apparent discernment of what I do and do not give a rat's ass about, rest assured that I care quite a bit more about the targeted, extra-judicial assassination of US citizens by the chief executive than I do (insert your idea of an equivalent Trump barbarism here), thank you kindly.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
I thought US Law was clear. POTUS has broad discretion to classify individuals as unlawful enemy combatants on the basis of information put before him. Once that classification has been determined, then the individual becomes a potential military target.
I know there is dispute under international law about the human rights of unlawful enemy combatants, but I don't think it is disputed that people may be justifiably classified as such.
So I don't think the term assassination is correct as a matter of law. Assassin is a term applied to people operating outside the law.
If there is a legal problem with the law governing the POTUS broad discretionary powers in classifying people as unlawful enemy combatants, then that can be argued up to the Supreme Court if necessary. Is there court action along those lines in progress? Is there any similar action in Congress?
Can a US citizen also be an unlawful enemy combatant under current US law? I would have thought the answer to that is yes, but I'm happy to be corrected.
[ 08. February 2018, 22:02: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
The use of drones is a wedge issue. Romanlion couldn't give a rat's arse about it.
Despite your apparent discernment of what I do and do not give a rat's ass about, rest assured that I care quite a bit more about the targeted, extra-judicial assassination of US citizens by the chief executive than I do (insert your idea of an equivalent Trump barbarism here), thank you kindly.
So put your argument, and respond to my earlier question directly.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
The use of drones is a wedge issue. Romanlion couldn't give a rat's arse about it.
Despite your apparent discernment of what I do and do not give a rat's ass about, rest assured that I care quite a bit more about the targeted, extra-judicial assassination of US citizens by the chief executive than I do (insert your idea of an equivalent Trump barbarism here), thank you kindly.
So put your argument, and respond to my earlier question directly.
Which question is that? I see 3 question marks in your posts just on this page.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
As a follow up, here is a detailed look at the legality of drone strikes. And this is the grey area. What limits apply to the pursuit of unlawful combatants, given that the traditional definition of battleground doesn't really work any more.
[ 08. February 2018, 23:56: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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